Tactical Automag prototype thread. Please help.

[DSR75]

I didn't mean to come across as rude or not appreciative. I apologize for that. Thanks for the imput.

[acrosome]

I appreciate your plans for using an ADG design as your base, but have you really looked at the Black Cell Longbows? (This is not spam- the explaination follows.)

I have ALWAYS had the same complaint that you do about air-through stocks, i.e. that they are far too high and interfere with a good sight picture. I agree that the original Longbows fail miserably at their stated purpose for this reason. But the new Ion-based Black Cell stocks are set much lower, and I'm curious to find out if they allow enough room for a mask. On the Longbow Black Cell versions there is also the matter of the sight rail being raised even higher above the main body. I think it looks like it might work.



Mind you, I'm talking about the Q-bow, since as you mentioned that 20-round tube magazine is just ridiculous. But this would probably work wolderfully with a Warp feed if you are dead-set on one. Of course if you want a normal hopper on top that's a no-go.

For the record, though, your design is still better. It's about what I always come up with when I fantasize about my ultimate woodsball gun, except that I like the Q-loader. (I'm into woodsball, but not really milsim.) I'm trying to convince myself that I need a Tac-1 E-Mag to work on a similar project.

[DSR75]

I'm torn about using either a q-loader or warp feed. I'm afraid of using either one for the simple fact that I feel I will break them. I've never used either but the q-loader appears fragile. The warp seams more sturdy but requires batteries and makes noise. I'm also afraid of catching the tubing on something. While I prefer to find a good hide, I occasionally like to stalk or flank. In doing do I need something that, if the occasion arose, I could feel comforatable running, diving, sliding with. What is your experience with the q-loader? I would love to be able to make a scenario/tactical line of products for AGD b/c I feel that are one of, if not the best, markers and companies out there.
As far as mask clearance, it appears that the black cell does accomodate your mask. I've never used one before so I am strictly making this statement off of an observation of the pic that you posted.

[peewee]

gamer I like your idea's !!! they look a hek of a lot better than the longbow. Personally I'd give luke a holler about any machining you might need.

[acrosome]

The Q-loader is about as sturdy as a really well-made hopper, but I will grant you that it is longer so you get more leverage if it gets torqued from the end. It's still plenty sturdy. I'd say it probably is easier to break a Q-loader than a warp feed or a hopper-- I just can't stand the ergonomics of a warp feed. Well, if I'm going to be honest I've never played with one so I can't be sure, but I've held one and I found it annoying. Maybe I just needed to get used to it. You also cannot fire while reloading a Q-loader, and that can be a bummer, but the less batteries I have to rely on the better.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

I just order the longbow shroud for myself i don't hav access to a machine shop so i can hack and cut away to make mines work with a mask.

i just find it funny that agd has one moveing part in their design. i figure they would have made q loader style automags in the shape of a p90/m4 by now. i mean it only use one part to shoot the paintball unlike many moving parts like my bm2k. agd step up your woodsball game!!!

[famousgamer]

As far as the 6 holes on the RT rail... they are not all aligned straight. It kind of steps out three times. Ths is not to say that a good machinist could not match these steps with an adapter peice, but it makes it tougher.

The RT rail would be nice to use, except for a few reasons: Firstly, we do not know if we can even drill through the back end of the RT rail into the stock adapter peice, for added stability (and looks). We know we CAN with the original style frame.

Also, we know that we can use the front end hole (used for the front grip, gas thru grip and grip extention peice) to build of off. On the RT we have to rely either on the front three screws, or the grip holder peice that is supplied with the RT marker. Bother of which just arent as easy as using the already usable hole in the front of the original frame.

All in all it is just going to be simpler using the old style frame, at a very small sacrifice. It is also cheaper, and I want this to be a very inexpensive and sill a solid marker.

As far as mask clearance... I am still not convinced that the black cell stuff really delivers. For example...

This is how paintballers shoot. Obviously, paintball shooting is ten times different than regular rifle/shotgun shooting...


and rifle shooting, for comparison.


And this is the clearance of: two regular comfortable (but not cool looking) paintball t-stocks, the special Ops stocks, and the concept we are working on...


Now, judging by the stances in the first picture, and the stocks in the second, it is plain to see which are going to work better for paintball. The Black Cell is much better than the Longbow, but still relies on a sight riser.

This no riser thing is hugely important, because I want to totally avoid risers in every form. A single focal plane to shoot from. Thats what our marker needs. This would make for super accurate snap shooting, and make for a very close red dot alignment. This will also greatly lower the profile of the marker. Also, a warp fed mag frame is technically the lowest profile frame you can get. Even lower than a Q fed marker (unless it is fed from the warp left/right feed.

I think the warp would be better than the Q loader, for a few reasons. Much more sturdy, due to the mounting plate. Way smaller profile. Also, you can stick the top of your marker over a log, bush, etc, and rest the barrel on whatever cover you are using. This makes your profile SO low, because you save that extra distance the Qloader would have taken up to get over your cover. Not a huge thing, but its all the subtleties that are gonna make this ADG tactical rule. Aslo, the warp is totally ADG. I love the Qloader, so its a tuff one, but I am leaning towards warp.'

Using the warp means sacrificing looks tho. Also, not relying on risers or handles on the top also sacrifices looks (I think they look neato). I think in the end, the tactical ADG marker is going to feel 10 times better, perform ten times better, and look almost as good as that black cell. Having said that, it is actually a goal of this markers concept to look better, and we are not done designing yet!

DEIT: added pictures

[famousgamer]

Oh yeah, and this whole 18 inch barrell thing that the Longbow/Qbow and Black Ops thing is doing is kinda Overkill. Anything past 14 inches does not give any more accuracy (or so I have read), and it will only serve to slow down the paintball with the added friction provided by the extra barrell length.

Now, this is all internet reading, so I may be off, but if it is true this should be another feature in the ADG tactical protoype. A shorter, more efficient barrel. This would also make for a more manouverable marker as well, and with no Q loader in the front it would be an even smaller profile. Kinda like a sniper carbine.

[famousgamer]

Another doodle... getting closer?



I like how the mag is smaller, and tighter. If you can imagine picking up the gun, sighting it and shooting, the mag would be much quicker and more intuative. The hoses on the mag are cleaner and simpler.

For the people with machining experience out there... should I be making these shrouds three dimentional, or more flat? Are these going through a computerized c and c machine, or being cut and ground out of sheet metal? I am not quite sure how it is done, or the best/easiest way?

[famousgamer]

This is kinda a FAMAS design. I didnt intend to make a milsim design, but the FAMAS actually is a cool idea. The whole handle becomes a fast aiming focal plane, for intuative aiming, as opposed to a short rail or block. Of course a red dot also suits it nice.

After I saw that pic of that holding a FAMAS I thought WOW that is alot of head clearance! In this design, I moved the stock up, as there was now more clearance created by the sight rail.

I guess it is a matter of taste. What kind of gun feel should we be going for, to make the ultimate woodsball machine?

[famousgamer]

Here is a mass, or profile comparison.

This is a mag kit with the same dimentions as the Black Cell Longbow, except the stock is still a little lower.



Kinda interesting. The AGD takes up less mass, and would be way cleaner. No multiple hoses, complicated loading house, etc. I still love that Q loader tho. Hmmm.

EDIT: And if that is that, then that means this is this...



Thats why the stock is going lower. I like the lower profile one better, but I suppose this is also a matter of taste.

[famousgamer]

I cant sleep. Can you tell?

Okay, so here is an interesting starting point. I do NOT want the design to end here. I think it can be improved greatly, tho it is already an improvment over the Black Cell in my opinion. More mask clearance, smaller package, lower profile, etc.



Ugh. It makes me like the Q loader even more. I kinda dont want to, but... ugh. It might be a better choice rather than the warp feed. I am torn.

[DSR75]

You are now seeing why I'm having a hard time as well deciding between the q and the warp. I'm keeping track of all the ideas so I can throw them off my dad when we get a chance to get started on this. Don't think I've given up.

[craltal]

snap shooting with a stock? That's a lot of motion. I'd love to watch that. There are reasons that speedball guns are short, light, and not run remotely.

As for shooting POV, it's up to the individual shooter. Look at the pictures that were posted with the rifle/ shotgun shooters. With the exception of the drawing with the m-16, everyone of them could be wearing a paintball mask and still have enough clearance, not that we actually play that way. As for the FAMAS picture, you are failing to recognize that while there is a lot of "stuff" above the level of the stock, it still sits inline with the body of the gun and the barrel aiding in keeping the weapon steady. You also have the added benefit that a bullet actually travels in a straight line, for all intents and purposes at the ranges we deal with, while paintballs do not.

As for the rear holes stepping out, have you ever seen one? There are wings that extend after the holes towards the back, but the holes must be inline otherwise the RT sight rail wouldn't fit. I just brought it up as it would require less modification the the gun.

I give you kudos for the thoughts and am not trying to stifle your creativity, in fact I'm trying to help you think a bit more broadly. My ideas might not help, but at least I'm making you think a bit.

If it's worth doing, it's worth doing properly.

[/beating horse]

[acrosome]

Man, I like that last one with the Q-loader. As I said, it's just about what I come up with when I fantasize about the perfect woodsball gun. I see that you are not using a top-mounted feed, as the longbows do. Would you run the q-loader into a left-sided feed, as is often done with the Warp Feed?

And where do I send the check?

Seriously, I think I've decided on the Tac-1 to use for a similar (if somewhat less ambitious) project. I really could care less about looks, so an air-through T-stock suits me just fine. I'm going to start looking for one, but if you know of a good one I'm willing to take suggestions.

I also didn't realize that you weren't necessarily intending to use your design for a "sniper" gun. In such a role I think the Ion Q-bow stock is fine, but for normal-style play (as illustrated in the pictures in you post above) then, yes, I think the Ion Q-bow stock is still far too high.