Tactical Automag prototype thread. Please help.

[famousgamer]

and before you even start Tyger...

- no one cares how much you enjoy stock class, so dont even bother. You are old school? Right on dude. I am 30 years old, and played plenty of pump myself. 99 percent of the current paintball world are not idiots for choosing 200 round hoppers and semi automatic paintball markers, so stop trying to defend your personal taste.

- No one cares how you feel about the Longbow stock length, becasue we already know it is too short. Its made for midgets... and the paintball community at large are, on average, not midgets. Old news.

- no one is going to trust your opinion here, because you have a vested interest in supporting Special Ops as they provide you with web space for your web dog radio, and plenty of other stuff I am sure.

- no one is intrested on how you feel I should best earn respect, or any type of inter-relation comments. Who cares. This is a paintball forum, not the Dr. Phil show. You dont like me? Be the bigger man and walk.




Where is Spec Ops 1? Where is my pics of the Longbow? Where? Where is the one person who perfectly fits into the Longbow, and who owns a digital camera? Where did all that cash go for those Longbows go? Into research and development into a better Ion design? How do you think Tom Kaye feels about the Longbow? Do you think it fits him? Are adults not expected to use the Longbow. And it goes on and on and on.....

[LONEWOLFOO1]

i can tell you this i personal bought a longbow and as of yet had not have my questions answered. is a adapter plate being made? why is the stock higher than the barrel? why isn't the black cell ion made to the same dimension as the longbow why is the stock lower on the ion? why we can't get the makers of the longbow to take pictures of the gun in the way we specfied. i would do it but it would be bias so i ask the makers to do it i get nothing.

i feel because they knew they goofed. its ok because i know personal people have gotten in contact with me and thank me for saving them from buying a mistake. ive done my work i know for a fact that i personaly took away sales from the longbow.

will they correct their mistake only time will tell but one things for for spec ops is not looking good right now. unlike famousgamer i did not photoshop any improvement desgins. why should I? i spent over 1g. and still not happy. i know you guys came hard at famousgamer and other non longbow owners. but no one has come for me why. i think i did more damage than famousgamer did i have emails/phonecalls of people saying there not going to buy the longbow because of me.

i don't care about the clip crap all i care about is HOW DOES THE GUN FEELS IN MY HANDS /BODY. I never talked about the feed system or nothing the only thing i am concerned about is HOW DO I MAKE MY LONGBOW FEEL COMFORTABLE IN MY HANDS. specops never address that issue. i am doing a write up call (THE TRUE COST OF A LONGBOW)

[famousgamer]

Right on man.

In fact, to everyone who wants to get mad at me for critisizing the Longbow, pease take it up with LONEWOLF instead. He has paid his dues in full, and is ready to discuss anyones views that the Longbow is a fine design. LONEWOLF is a Longbow owner, and a victim of Special Ops poor marker design skills.




So, I was looking at the height of the Longbow stock, and the height of the T stock. I then checked the pictures that Borph has submitted.

I became concerned that my stock designs have the top line too high. The problem is that when I lower that top ine to allow for more mask clearance, I sacrifice the looks of the marker. Here, see what I mean...


You get more room for the mask, but the stock does not look as neato. Now, looks should ALWAYS come secondary to function, so I am not super concerned, but it is a consideration.

It seems to me that Borph has his head on a perfect angle, with his neck unstrained and in a totally natural position. Now, I do not have the naturally raised z body sight riser, but I am hoping Ill still be able to fit my melon in that space okay just the same.

If anything, I will always have this configuration to use, in case the stock sculpting does not work out. Exact same function, just a different look.


I figure I loose about one inch of mask clearance, and I want to make sure I dont loose any more. I also wear a Profiler, so I get a little more clearance that way... but I dont expect everyone should have to get a Profiler to use a stock with comfort either.





Whatever happens, we can not end up with this angle....


Sir Shrugsalot. I would never be in that firing position with a paintball marker. Shrugged shoulders, a buttplate that is too high, a head on at 45* angle, etc. Compare that pic to Borphs and decide which position youd rather play paintball in.

[famousgamer]

Oh yeah, wasnt sure if I has shared these or not... it was kinda an attempt at re-creating the PSG-1 kinda grip, and have the Q in the stock.

Again, this is another design will will have to try, by taping my Q Loader down onto some kinda stock to get the feel.

[Tyger]

How do you think Tom Kaye feels about the Longbow? Do you think it fits him?

When I showed it to him, he thought it was really cool. He shouldered it, he seemed to like it.

You forget, I live 10 minutes from AGD HQ. They sponsored my Web Dog shows too, does that mean my opinion of Automags is tainted? The show doesn't run anymore, and yet I still use my E-Mag. If a product is crap I won't use it. But hey, you don't seem to believe anyone buy yourself, so what's the point in arguing?

You said I should be the "Bigger man" and walk away. Take your own advice and stop slamming a company that showed you the door.

[Spec.Ops1]

[QUOTE=famousgamer]Dude. That design team at Special Ops is as usless as tits on a bull. They finally get the mask clearance issue addressed on the Black Cell Ion, and then the only picatinny rail is blocked by the vert feed![QUOTE=famousgamer]

Fine by us (and many others) not by you. The sky is falling!

The guys rushed to the defense, saying that you can "drill and tap" your Black Cell bosy for side mounted rails. They also stated that this was quick, easy, and inexpensive. What the hell? I have to "drill and tap" their retarded Ion body just so I dont have my sight blocked by the feedneck?

You do not have to drill/tap. Drilling is optional for a better fit. The screws that come with the rail kit are self tapping ( like wood screws) In theory you could put those rails anywhere there is sufficient material to screw into.

Occluded sights do not require clear line of sight. Also, we have "other plans" for this marker beyond what you see .

Look at the estimated percentage of people out there that possess the ability to "drill and tap" their paintball markers. Then think about how many people could benifit from an unobstucted top mounted sight, without a feedneck in the way. Rediculous beyond words... and that is a marker designed by professionals.

We wish Smart parts did a right or left feed (loved the X-mag for that option)... but alas they did not. Offset will be the best option however I hate sigting through an offset... it's wierd. I would rather use an occluded sight where it does not matter if a feedneck is in the way. Sighting with two eyes is the way to go, rather than squinting out of one and closing off precious field of vision.

They couldnt have just looked at the Tac One pic rails could they? They just didnt make enough sense? Hey Special Ed Paintball, what makes you think people are not going to just buy this...

That is the StinkOps (love that dis) DTI2 Ion body kit. http://www.deadlywind.com/store/dti2/index.html

Those Deadlywind guys rule.

It is only 85 bucks, and is completley milled out of a solid block of aluminum. It has its rails on angles like the Tac One body, and also has extra rails at the front of the marker, and on the front underside for laser, bipods, doo dads, etc. It is easily ten times better than the Black Cell, and I would guess it is also less expensive as well... at least after you factor in the fact that the Black Cell needs an aftermarker offset adapter or extra rails for the sides.

Apparently SO cool that you "overlook" your preference for mask clearence. This actually has LESS than the longbow when you take into the account the shroud and rail on the longbow design... and even less still if the 45 degree rail is used as the place to mount the sight. The only only option is to use the dovetail and where is that located? Right behind the Feedneck...

So, enlighten them on that issue. I suggest you don't do it the way you went about doing it with us.
I doubt you would as your intelligent enough to know when your making progress or just being an ***.

I dont even think Ill go back to the Special Ed forums. They are seriously a waste of time. Keep me in the know about how the Longbow debate goes LONEWOLF, even tho they closed both threads in which we were discussing it. Censoring people only serves to make them look worse, and it is pretty obvious we had blocked them into a corner that they could not get out of.

I dig your design feedback, just not your insults. Your welcome any time. As far as blocking "us" into a corner... hardly, this product sells well for us but if it went away tomorrow... nobody at our headquarters would lose their job. (side note): AGD has not been looking good lately and we hope they stick around (we LOVE AGD) but we have been prepared to lose this marker.

famousgamer, what I find the most odd is that you have one of the fastest growing paintball companies (us in case you were wondering) communicating with you and willing to work with you on design ideas however you spit in our face. I mean honestly... if you are about providing design ideas and feedback to a company that has breathed some life into a dying marker design... do it more intelligently. How's that saying go again? Something like: You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

Design is one's opinion, Design is not a formula, Design is a judgement, In judgement there is a "right" and "wrong" however that system only works if everybody has the same values. The error in all your arguments is that your "come from" is that your feedback is a opinion that you treat as fact and you expect eveybody else (again your online ego is a sight to behold) to follow in suit because your right and everybody else is wrong. Again, everybody has different values... in all walks of life. We support our design with opinions on why we think it will work for a person... We rarely if ever say "This is the only way...the right way" rather "this is our way.. .perhaps you should give it a shot"

This has what I have been trying to get through your "ego wall" since your first attacks.

Give a person great service, and they tell ten people. Show em bad service, and they tell a thousand people.

Indeed and I have done quite a bit of answering and replies to your questions and attacks and I am pretty sure you have not bought much (if anything) from us. And that is still bad service? Sheesh!

[LONEWOLFOO1]

After all this nobody still haven't answered my questions why is it about famousgamer why isn't nobody talking to lonewolf a actual longbow owner?

famousgamer do me a favor and step out for a couple of days i want to see if they answer my questions.

SPECOPS ANSWER LONEWOLF QUESTIONS POSTED ABOVE.

[famousgamer]

Yeah seriously. TALK TO LONEWOLF. Ill be back in a few days, and just read in the meantime. Please address LONEWOLFs concerns, as Tyger and Spec Ops 1 are just using me as a diversion, and a scapegoat.

[paintball_fiend]

hey Tyger nice to hear from you... if and when i get unbanned i might venture into spec ops again

if you could give a good word for me i would appreciate it....next time i will not give any constructive critisism.....even though i thought i was polite in all of my statements

[Spec.Ops1]

i can tell you this i personal bought a longbow and as of yet had not have my questions answered. is a adapter plate being made?

You have PM'd me, I replied. You can PM me again anytime you wish and I will answer your questions.

Answer: not at this time.

I am assuming you bought a longbow kit? (side note... the kits did NOT include a weaver rail... which is admittedly dumb... I have been bugging my hard parts guys about it... it's one of those things they have not gotten around to... however they can be bought on our webstore) Or did you buy a complete longbow. I run the q-bow setup and my stock setup works great (in regards to mask clearance and sighting with my Hakko Bed-24 dot sight) for me (and everybody else at our headquarters). My only complaint is that the buttstock feels to short to me however it has the same dimensions as a m-16 in regards to the length between the trigger and the end of the buttstock. The reason it feels short has to do with the difference in the foregrip placement... meaning one grips the marker up front differently then they would on the M-16 heat shield.

why is the stock higher than the barrel?

that's the way it turned out and it worked great for us in testing and continues to work great for us presently. Again, put a weaver on there and a good site, you wont have problems. Try it, take a picture, and show everybody. I already showed a picture of me shooting it in a game.

why isn't the black cell ion made to the same dimension as the longbow why is the stock lower on the ion?

The blackcell ion can run a buttstock on it without the shroud, which also acts as a riser on the longbow model. So, to offset the difference we placed the buttstock mount lower to make up for that fact that a shroud (again, acts as a riser on the longbow) would not be present. Now when the longbow style ion configuration is run there is extra clearance because of what I previously mentioned.

why we can't get the makers of the longbow to take pictures of the gun in the way we specfied. i would do it but it would be bias so i ask the makers to do it i get nothing.

The makers of the longbow are busy making parts. So you get to deal with me, a person who most likely has the most play time logged on the setup since it's creation and also has some influence on design, development and launch of new product. Again I provided a picture of me playing in a scenario game. You can do it, and quite frankly who do you think is going to be more biased. The maker or a customer? I think at this point you are sold on the fact that it's a bad design and are not open to setting up like I recommend... you may be shocked... it may work great for you.

i feel because they knew they goofed. its ok because i know personal people have gotten in contact with me and thank me for saving them from buying a mistake. ive done my work i know for a fact that i personaly took away sales from the longbow.

The "goof" is that with such a differenct concept, perhaps we where not clear enough about the optimal setups of the marker based on our experiences with it. But then again, things that sort of "upset" the status quo are either celebrated or damned. Seldom is anybody lukewarm about new concept models. They either love it or hate it. Even though some people hate the longbow, it has created long threads of debates and sparked the imagination (even if in disgust) of different designs! Think about how many others are drawn to the conflict dynamic. It's the classic fight/circle scenario: People see a battle, they are compelled to check it out (as this is a fascinating break to their routine) and will naturally take a side or at the very least guess "who's gonna win?". When the battle clears, lessons are learned by all, even those who did not actively participate in the "fight".

It's human nature. So sales may have been taken away from the longbow, but also sales may have increased because of the "conflict". Or as famousgamer intelligently put "Let me yang..." And famousgamer has and I love it! He sparked some cool designs "yag-ing" off your "yin". Very cool stuff... everybody wins in this regard. Bummer about the passive aggressive digs though.


[QUOTE=LONEWOLFOO1]
will they correct their mistake only time will tell but one things for for spec ops is not looking good right now. unlike famousgamer i did not photoshop any improvement desgins. why should I? i spent over 1g. and still not happy. i know you guys came hard at famousgamer and other non longbow owners. but no one has come for me why. i think i did more damage than famousgamer did i have emails/phonecalls of people saying there not going to buy the longbow because of me.

If you did not like it you were more than welcome to exchange it or return it if you were not happy. We are simply countering arguments against the bad or doing our best to recommend setup changes to optimize/shift performance to the users preference. Also, why did'nt you call up Special Ops and say "hey can I talk to somebody who owns one of these things?" Or, message me personally with specific questions and solutions to your issues with the marker? So, PM box is always open however it feels like you are more set on being a victim of bad design.

i don't care about the clip crap all i care about is HOW DOES THE GUN FEELS IN MY HANDS /BODY. I never talked about the feed system or nothing the only thing i am concerned about is HOW DO I MAKE MY LONGBOW FEEL COMFORTABLE IN MY HANDS. specops never address that issue. i am doing a write up call (THE TRUE COST OF A LONGBOW)

Well the issue that you are speaking of is that of personal preference. There is no "right" answer to your "personal preference" question, only suggestions based on our OWN preference. So if our suggestions do not suit you does that make the gun bad? For you personally the answer is "yes" but for other people quite possibly "no".

Regarding your article: I assume you mean "The cost of getting a longbow suited to my preference" Longmouthed title however more accurate. My q-bow "as-is" would retail for about 1300.00 because I have a carbon barrel and a slew of q-pods (q-pods IMHO are a ***** to work with... but... yeah...)
and a 160.00 Hakko Bed 24 holo site. So that's my individual cost for getting a q-bow up to my preference.

This is a great thing to do... to share experience with people. The "greater good" responsibility that comes with this human trait is: Do I share my experience objectively? Or, am I imposing mine on people that may taint their own experience/opinion?

Call me: 855 206 6006 ext 3002 if you would like to talk more about it and are honestly interested in a forward moving conversation about your longbow.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

Just to let you know that i read your email i will have a return post soon i am at work.

[marpat]

umm not to get back on topic..... but

http://rap4.com/paintball/os/vertical-offset-feed-qloader-adaptor-p-1499.html

what if you had this and attached it to a ule warp body?

i don't have a warp body nor the q-loader but if i did i would want the loader and pods closest to the body as possible.. maybe if someone with both the q-loader and warp would want to buy this and test it out for us... i would just pick all the items up and make my ideal mag..

or maybe since it looks like it's mounted on there with set screws it may slip since it's on the side.. :P

[famousgamer]

I was checking that adapter out MARPAT, but I swear I saw someone just mount their Q out a warp feed tube without it, tho it may have been like that for the picture. Sticking the Q out a warp side would be pretty ideal, as it gets in the way of nothing, and still would not get banged around as much as if it were on the bottom.

I am pretty suprised that no one around the Special Ops fctory has any issues with the Longbow design. It cetainly is not designed for the "status quo". For one, the stock is not adjustable, and people tend to be of differing sizes and shapes. There is also no way your mask can fit in to look thru a red dot that space without a signifigant riser. It also is not supplied with a pic rail? Oh man, its gets better and better.

So, Special Ops doesnt think there is a problem, and that somehow it is a freak incident that both LONEWOLF and Silentmike (among others) have issues with it. So far, it seems the majority of confirmed Longbow owners I have met have strong issues with the Longbows design, but somehow it still appeals to the masses? Weird.

[Spec.Ops1]

There is also no way your mask can fit in to look thru a red dot that space without a signifigant riser.

Pics for ya. Mask is a solid plastic Xtreme Rage 20/20.



Front side.



Edit: oops forgot to load second photo.

Check back on the rebuttal later... going paragliding!

[famousgamer]

Hehe. Dude, come on. The pic on the bottom. The sight should be at your eyeline, dontcha think? You are aiming upwards, putting the sight above your eye.

Weird. It does actually looks like it fits great tho! It seriously does. Your head is hardly even on an angle at all!

So, even with the very slight difference in angles, why is this kids head on an angle?

In the top pic his head is almost a 45* angle, and you can see his head is tilted on the bottom one as well and stll doesnt reach a good position. But yours does Spec Ops!

He is much smaller than you, wearing a Profiler, and still can hardly fit in there. I even put your red dot on his marker, just to see if his eyes were gettin any closer. Look at the angle of his head compared to yours! His head is tilted dude, and yours isnt. Amazing.

Its does look like you fit that marker good tho. It seriously does. It doesnt fit that kid tho, and I am confused now. Good job tho. Yer pics are very convincing.

I do not understand the two sets of pics next to eachother, besides they are at very slightly different angles.



... and the stock is way too short, but we all knew that already.