Tactical Automag prototype thread. Please help.

[famousgamer]

LOL. Seriously. Look at those pics next to eachother. I wanna see more. The difference between the two is dramatic. The camera angles are very similar as far as left to right positioning.

Dude, yer head aint even on an angle in that top pic! Look at that kid cram! Its magic!

But... I either got to see pics from LONEWOLF, another Longbow owner... or just buy one myself and sell the kit on Ebay and keep the Tac One. Thanks for taking and submitting the pics Spec Ops.

If anyone else does take pics, aim at the camera please for the straight on shot. Thanks.

[famousgamer]

LOL. nah. Its a crap angle on that straight on shot, and since your head isnt even on an angle in the lower shot you can not be looking thu the sight.

Is your forehead aiming thru the red dot, or are you just aiming up, cuz I know you dont have THAT much of an excess in mask clearance. Its a bunk angle, and its not what people are providing as shouldered Longbow pics. It is a good shot from the side tho... but dude, your head is not on an angle at all. How can you look over the marker if you aint even tilting your head?

These are angles people are submitting. Either match them, or yer pics are not accurate.

You see the difference? He is aiming at the camera, not above it. The angle you have shown with yer Longbow is not fooling me for a second.

At least we now know you own a digital camera, so I shouldnt be too tuff to get a real pic from you. And put a barrel in the marker so we can see its straightness in relation to the marker (should be stright on), as it seems you conviniently left it out of those last pics.

[Spec.Ops1]

I Guess I just aimed above the camera? It was not intentional as I just grabbed our photographer really quick and said" her take these two pics"

Bam, Bam done in about 20 seconds.

If I angle the gun up or down (facing the camera) my head tilt will be the same. It looks like my eye line is below because I guess i was aiming above the camera. I'll try again on monday and provide the other angle.

[esperto96]

Two problems I'm seeing with the kid's stance. His shoulder line is at a 90 degree angle to his line of fire where Spec.Ops1's is at a slight angle (left shoulder more foreward than right).

A result of the kid's stance is that he is hunching his sholders upward and bending his neck at an angle to see down the sight. His neck bending is compounded by the fact that if you look at the side-on photo, the stock is placed very low on his shoulder. He could remove some of the crink in his neck merely by placing the stock an inch or two higher and reduce the angle his neck has to be at.

If the kid adjusted his stance to match Spec.Op1's he would probably be amazed at how much nicer it felt.

He is probably acting like I was on my first real golfing experience. The clubs just felt weird in my hands until my brother-in-law (who was born with a 9-iron in his hands) showed me the proper stance for a good swing. I still sucked at golf but it did feel more natural once I learned how to swing properly.

[ahellers]

look its spec ops 1's birthday.
t

[LONEWOLFOO1]

sorry i haven't answered in a couple of days i took a trip to my local paintball shop and had some pics taking with my friend alex he is a fifteen+ year player thats currently playing tourneys i pic him beacuase he is the smallest player i know just to show how much you need to bend to see thru a sight. i realy feel they had midgets in mind when they design this really i do.














as you can see you have to shrug up your shoulder to look thru the sight i am not buying a hakko sight screw tha!!!t in the other pics he is holding a sp8 you don't have to bend your head as much to look thru the sight. alex said this would defintly give his shoulders and neck pain the sp8 is a much better fit.

just make a adapter plate do you need help to design it?

look over the pics tell me what you think

spec ops i may take you up on the return of my longbow kit. since no effort is being made to make the stock adjustable i am tired of spending more money. i may take it out to my big game i am throwing to let other people see your design. i had other people in the store hold it as well and some said its not bad but they held that sp8 and they felt the difference. much more comfortable

[famousgamer]

Excellent pictures LONEWOLF. That really shows what we are discribing perfectly. Thanks for taking the time to not only take the pics, but also for doing them right. That SP8 is lookin gbetter and better to me. And wow, an offset feedneck... a lesson the Black Cell should have taken.

L.S.N.S. The "Longbow Sore Neck Synrome" at work, and Borphs pain free setup...

Yes, there is a raise to Borphs setup, but his stock is also much lower than the Longbow stock. That makes the difference. Also notice that the T stock is potentially longer (it is adjustable) and more comfy. That Longbow stock seems to get shorter and shorter the more I look at it.

And, ummm.... I think that you were fudging yer pics a bit on purpose Spec Ops. For example...

Notice anything weird? Your head is not even tilted Spec Ops, and I think it is highly unlikley that you are somehow reaching the red dot with your eye without tilting your melon.

Since taking those pics only took you "20 seconds" Spec Ops, I am sure you will not mind submitting some new ones where you are in fact looking thru the red dot? Oh, and Happy Birthday.



EDIT: I included this one just for fun...

The mystery stock... and the man that aims with his forehead.



You know... on a personal note. I sometimes feel bad that I have made such efforts to study and critisize the Longbow stock placement issue. I feel guilty because it is so abundantly clear that the Longbow setup is a bad design, and it is a fact that hardly needs explaining.

Then I think about the pricetag of the Longbow, and how many people discover it is a bad design, only it is too late. There is no value with the Longbow. I also think about a company that does not mind having its consumers use sub-standard marker designs. I also think about a company that can mill a 20 dollar stock adapter to solve the stock problems (an idea which we provided for free) and still does nothing.

I am glad that all Longbow owners get into the Automag world tho. The automags rock, as we all well know, and I am thrilled that prospective woodsball snipers learn about the Automag, even if their stocks are too high and their necks hurt. That isnt the markers fault.

At any rate, I am done with the Longbow stock placement issue. I hope the adapters come out, and if anyone wants to use my adapter designs you may. A Longbow with an "adapted" stock is a great marker any way you slice it.

At any rate, I am not going to debate the stock being a good placement or not, because it simply is not. Same with the length, and the lack of adjustability. It is not a matter of preference either. Its just bad, and that fact is not worth debating any longer.

Should people still buy Longbows? Sure man! Thats a Tac One under the hood! But then... they could just buy a Tac One... and actually use its picatinny rails... for starters....

So, on with the designs.

[famousgamer]

Stripped down, and lightweight.


Im starting to look at more obscure rifle references now. Here is a really stripped down Cheyenne Tactical, and my design in comparison. I also have shown a rear view of the stock and Q Loader, and have shown how the butt plate kind of cradles the Q.

I also added a "snier grip" to the bottom of the grip frame, which also hides the Q mounting bracket. There is a foregrip extender that would have a pic rail on it, for a foregrip and bipod.

I can already notice that the stock might be too long on my design, to compensate for the Q Loader under there.

And that is my long silencer, that supresses the muzzle and porting. More info on that in the future.

EDIT: with the old slanted Q position....


Not sure if it will fit, but looks mighty comfy if it does.

Here is my design in relation to the French Hecate sniper rifle.


That makes me a little more confident with that stock length. I might need to pad the bottoms of the Q pods tho, for when I rest it down while using a bipod (which shoul be hardly ever)

Imagine for a second if this might work...


Not likley that this configuration will work... but if it did? Wowza! That configuration actually involves sawing the T stock short, as it would run into the Q pod. Id have to continue the stock straight, probably by welding a straight peice to it, with a t joint at the end for the buttplate.

This is the setup I am going to "tape up" first. Im gonna use masking tape to place the Q all over the mag, and find the final spot that way. Ill show pics when I can.

but... if it turns out that packing all that stuff into the smallest shape possible doe snot pan out, Ill will probably just go with this setup, based on the Borph pattern... tried and tested...

All parts off the shelf, except for the "foregrip extender" type peice with the pic rail... and the silencer of course.

[Tyger]

I see your problem Famousgamer.

You handle your paintgun like a paintgun. So did the test subject who was handed the Longbow.

SpecOps1 handles it like a FIREARM.

If you ever shot a rifle, you'd see the difference. To note, using your pictures.



Forget the head tilt, see where the stock rests? Notice the body positioning? Notice the stance? You're comparing two COMPLETELY different styles of shooting. On the left is a traditional "tournament" style of playing sideways and playing tight, on the RIGHT is a more stable firearms style.

Come to look at it, the player on the right couldn't shoulder his stock like that and shoot the paintgun. As you can see the air nipple is completely blocked into his shoulder. So there's no way a remote line could feed into it.

Oh, and just for note, look at the finger placement and who's ON the trigger, and who isn't. That's showing who's background is where.

And thus we come to the overall PROBLEM with your argument. The gun is only flawed if you shoot with a sideways stance. It could be argued, therefore, that your stance is flawed. A few hundred years of gun design can't be wrong, can it?

-Tyger

[famousgamer]

LOL. People that fire firearms do not wear paintball masks. Fundimental difference.

So, when yer head is twice as big you need "mask clearance". You can shoot your gun like a real gun, paint gun, or even pop gun. Any way you shoot it, you need to fit your head into the space where the red dot is.. if you wanna use it.

Thats the problem with the Longbow. And besides, you know as well as I do that Spec Ops aint looking down his sight in that pic. Seriously. His head isnt even tilted, and it has nothing to do with "shooting style". If the stock travels straight out from the marker, how can the head NOT be tilted and still fit into the space where the eye needs to be to look into the red dot? Seriously Tyger... its common sense. Spec Ops is caught in a lie, and the picture proves it.

[famousgamer]

Here is the default pattern for a tactical setup, mainly made with "on the shelf" parts. Lotsa mask clearance, in case you shoot your marker "tourney style".



When did "tournament style" shooting involve turning your head on a 45* angle? That head position is called "retarded Longbow stock placement style".

[Tyger]

If the stock travels straight out from the marker, how can the head NOT be tilted and still fit into the space where the eye needs to be to look into the red dot? Seriously Tyger... its common sense.

*I* can do it with mine.

Oh, and it was a lone gunman too.

[famousgamer]

I can not beleive I need to explain this... but here goes...

Well, I guess common sense is not so common after all...

So, tell me how you can get your eye into the place where it needs to be to look into a red dot WITHOUT tilting your head?

No tilt...


With tilt...


Now, from these two pictures, try to guess who IS NOT looking through the red dot because he is not tilting his head?


How does that work Tyger? Not tilting your head and having your eye on top the stock?

Even with Borphs setup you need to tilt your head, and the Longbow blocks twice as much of a mask as Borphs setup does.

Anyways,. that is exactly why I dont want to debate this anymore. Its is so retarded, and I am so startled by peoples complete lack of common sense on the issue. What a dead horse. The design sucks. It just does. Dont lie about it and make up stories about your magical eyes and untilting heads.

[famousgamer]

*I* can do it with mine.

Oh, and it was a lone gunman too.

In fact, because you are lying to new prospective Longbow buyers out there in order to confuse them from seeing the truth.. prove you can look through a Longbow red dot without tilting your head at all. Go ahead. You got a camera... probably several. In fact, use ANY red dot on ANY marker that has a stock (including Tippmann A5's etc.) and try not to tilt your head. I will accept those pics as proof positive as well.

Here are some of my fave head tilt memories from the past...

Ah, who can forget SWATS head cramming demonstration...

P.S. SWAT uses a "firearms" style of shooting, according to him. Still crammin tho.

And what about this little gem...

Ouch. Hurts just lookin at it. Thats a Longbow by the way. He must be using a "tournament style" of shooting.

And here is a fave of mine...

OOPS! Sorry. None of these guys are head cramming. They do not have stocks that are too high! Thats why! A miracle of common sense! Ugh. I guess in the game of PAINTBALL it is better to have a PAINTBALL gun designed to be shot by PAINTBALL players wearing PAINTBALL masks. Ya think?

[Tyger]

Why bother?

You've already made up YOUR mind, and your agenda is to slam a company based on your opinion of a single product. Any "proof" you demand you automatically refute as being faked. So evenif I produce pictures, you'll automatically say it's faked, photoshopped, and otherwise altered.

At least that's the pattern that's emerged so far.

If you don't like it, do better.