Mech only games

[Lohman446]

Let me be the first to tell you that I am really not interested in competing mech only games where we limit technology through such limitations.

In my opinion the "issue" that I would like to see resolved in paintball is the amount of air on the field. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with the "all in" speedball games and ramping markers that are allowing players to shoot a case of paint in a game - this just makes the paint cheaper for me. However when I want to play a "different" game the game I want is not really about what marker someone is using but how much paint is in the air.

I have this discussion about pumps all the time. Some producers provide games that are labeled as "pump only". However the limitations are worded as such that players are using force-fed markers, large capacity loaders, and wearing packs with multiple 200 round tubes. They are shooting 5BPS and are effectively playing the exact same game as a "standard" game. Yes I know there is a reduction in paint in the air (pumps are not as fast as electros) but the reduction is to such a level that it is meaningless to me at least. I have no desire to play this game specifically. I might as well play standard games.

Now I like stock class but even with this I have gone as far as using constant air and HPA because of convenience and not wanting to litter 12 grams. The point is that the rules for stock class or vertical stock class often are written to such a level that they exclude many players for lack of equipment. Even some of the most popular "vertical stock class" markers are excluded because they have an auto trigger feature (the Phantom)

What would mech only games do? They would be somewhere between "open pump" and "open". I doubt anyone would notice the difference in game play or format. We would play the exact same game with different equipment. Same tactics, same strategies, just different markers.

What are my thoughts on this matter? Limit paint by... *gasp* limiting paint. Rather than saying you can't use your electro, your mech-semi, your open class pump, your AT phantom or any other piece of equipment limit how much paint can be brought on the field. Say 400 rounds per player or some such. Want to make it really interesting and develop team "positions"? Limit it by team rather than player. Want to enforce standard "places" on the field allow X amount of tubes in certain positions. Rather than wearing pod packs allow each spot on the field to have pods in it to start. That is to say the back stand ups might have 5 tubes in each one (color coded so they cannot be moved) while the fifty might have a single pod. I think if we want to change the game (without wholesale changes to the field) we could do so simply by limiting paint in various formats.

[skipdogg]

I personally like the mech only idea cause I have the fondest memories of that from back in the day. So its more for nostolgia. The only technical debate I would have I guess for using mech's would be, I like the idea of having to pull the trigger each time you want to shoot a ball. for the most part, thats what mechs make you do. The whole rate of fire debate is not my issue.
The last two tournaments I played in I used a CCM pump. One of them we took first, and the other we made the cut to finals and finished fourth. So having 12.5bps coming at my head isnt really a concern of mine.

[going_home]

We do that around here to some extent.
You can only bring on the field what will fit in your hopper.
We call it hopper ball.
Its the most fun you can have on a paintball field imho.

[koleah]

Mech only wouldn't really work because of pneumatic triggers getting down in to the double digit gram weight resistance force, and the associated speeds that those can be reached by walking the trigger.

Limit on paint is probably the easiest and most straight forward to enforce. Everyone gets one standard hopper (no Pinocchios). Standard meaning around 200. I'm sure there are some hoppers that are 210-220ish, but most are based around 200.

[koleah]

Wait, are you talking about competitions, or Saturday walk-on games?

Cuz I think the 200-ball limit would be great for Saturday walk-on games, to help bring down the differential between a guy with plenty of dough who walks out there carrying 1200 rounds and the latest gun, and the newbie who is playing for the first time with his non-agitating hopper and fogging goggles.

The "pro" can run out his 200 rounds in the first 20 seconds, but then what. Quit, or play on with no paint. It would force him to move and continue moving, and relying more on tactics and good shots instead of just raining paint at any random 2-inch hole in a bunker that one of 150 paintballs might make it through to eliminate the other player.

Although I do understand the fields make their money by selling paint, but sometimes it just seems that there needs to be something done to even out the walk-on games. And a paint limit would be a pretty simple way to do it.




As far as comps, I don't know. Never played a comp, don't really care.

[GoatBoy]

This is a chupacabra.

No batteries (including hopper), no full auto, no excessively reactive triggers.

With that in place: how many of you have seen a purely mech marker go hosebeast *in game*.

I'm not talking about some shooting video you saw online.

I'm talking about an actual game.

If they did... was it effective?

I think many of you are preoccupied with some fear, the nature and origin of which I do not understand.

I do not believe in a paint limit; if someone wants to strap 2 cases onto their back, then by all means let them. The amount of paint someone is carrying has never concerned me, only the effective ROF he can achieve. Mech-only *will* limit this.

Most players probably won't even opt for any crazy bouncing or pneutrigger setups. I run a Q-Loader for the profile, not for the ROF.

And if you do want to try to do it through paint limit, it should be 150, or a loosely packed standard hopper.

[Justus]

This is a chupacabra.

No batteries (including hopper), no full auto, no excessively reactive triggers.

With that in place: how many of you have seen a purely mech marker go hosebeast *in game*.

I'm not talking about some shooting video you saw online.

I'm talking about an actual game.

If they did... was it effective?

I think many of you are preoccupied with some fear, the nature and origin of which I do not understand.

I do not believe in a paint limit; if someone wants to strap 2 cases onto their back, then by all means let them. The amount of paint someone is carrying has never concerned me, only the effective ROF he can achieve. Mech-only *will* limit this.

Most players probably won't even opt for any crazy bouncing or pneutrigger setups. I run a Q-Loader for the profile, not for the ROF.

And if you do want to try to do it through paint limit, it should be 150, or a loosely packed standard hopper.

Why go through all this process to limit out certain equipment if the goal is to simply limit the ROF? Let me use my Rotor and ETac, and tell me that we're limiting the ROF to 8 bps and leave it at that. I'll set my ROF cap in the firmware, just like a lot of other modern electro markers.

This whole nonsense about "no batteries even in the hopper" has me puzzled. All that does is nearly guarantee that the only people who aren't going to experience chops are the people with pumps or low-force bolts.

If you're going to stick to the "battery free" mantra to limit the ROF, I'm just going to break out the Q-loader. You want to take away my reactive trigger? I'll do it with a ULT pneumag. My point is, of course, that limiting equipment along terms such as this will never achieve the desired effect; simply stating the desired effect will have much more of an impact. Let people use what they want as long as they play within the effect limits.

[OPBN]

With that in place: how many of you have seen a purely mech marker go hosebeast *in game*. Yep. I've done so with both an RT'd /cycloned 98Custom and XValved Mag with 1100psi output 88ci tank. I don't do it often, but being big old and fairly slow I tend to lend suppression fire. Even without paint the sound of that thing ripping will keep heads down and allow people on my team to move up.

If they did... was it effective? Yep. Probably doesnt hurt that the barrel I used is particularly loud as well.

.

Yep.

[Lohman446]

This conversation is why I really have no interested in "mech only" games (or for that matter open class pump).

It does not change the game. I might as well play with ramping electros as the game experience is virtually the same.

One of the things AO is guitly of IMO is a desire for "mech only games" not to change the game format or play style but to give those shootings mags a technical advantage through ROF.

[BTAutoMag]

sometimes I like to go in a game with my minimag barrel just to screw with peoples minds.

I have a meeting today to discuss a mech tourney. this is just a proof of concept talk. details later

[Shane-O-Mac]

Maybe the limit is ONE battery, and it can only power ONE piece of gear. So you have a mech gun with a motorized loader OR an electro with a shake and bake. And also no pneumatic triggers, or loaders.

OR a game where everyone uses a rental gun, that is actually fun!

[GoatBoy]

Why go through all this process to limit out certain equipment if the goal is to simply limit the ROF? Let me use my Rotor and ETac, and tell me that we're limiting the ROF to 8 bps and leave it at that. I'll set my ROF cap in the firmware, just like a lot of other modern electro markers.

This whole nonsense about "no batteries even in the hopper" has me puzzled. All that does is nearly guarantee that the only people who aren't going to experience chops are the people with pumps or low-force bolts.

It's pretty simple. "No batteries" means simply that. No batteries. I do not think that this is an unreasonable thing to attempt.

If you're going to stick to the "battery free" mantra to limit the ROF, I'm just going to break out the Q-loader. You want to take away my reactive trigger? I'll do it with a ULT pneumag. My point is, of course, that limiting equipment along terms such as this will never achieve the desired effect; simply stating the desired effect will have much more of an impact. Let people use what they want as long as they play within the effect limits.

I would love to see that, honestly. It would be neat to see how far people can take true semi auto mech only in a *real game*. The problem is you're still talking *hypothetical*. "Don't make me pull this out!" Go ahead and do it, make it happen, record the video, and tell us how it *really* went down. I mean, literally, please do it. There are no in-game pneumag videos on youtube that I could find, which is a travesty. All I find are "shooting vids". I saw your RT mag video, and that was great, but where are the damn in-game pneumag videos?

Pneu triggers aren't foolproof; you're waving this idea around like it's some ultimate nullifier. They aren't common, and it's difficult to sustain the speed and walking cadence with them, to the point where I think it is arguably once again a matter of skill to use it properly *in a real game*. Plus you won't have any ramping. And yes, you do have to use it on a gun with a force feed and even an anti-chop to make it worthwhile. That's... kind of the point.

I guess the difference between us is I'd like to see that happen. You're threatening me with something I actually *want* to see. As someone who has always loved to see what people did with their guns since the early days, I'd love to see someone go through all that just to make it happen. It's going to involve some sacrifices, like switching to a Q-loader, quite a bit of hard work and tweaking on both the pneu system as well as the LX bolt, a bit of money, and ultimately will still require some amount of good old fashioned skill to bring it all together in a real game.

I have run across one pneumag, in-game, in all my years. As it happened to turn out, he was another AO member. He was a good player, the pneumag wasn't overpowering, I was running a literal "no batteries" setup, and I'd love to do it again because it was *fun*. Truthfully, it probably boils down to what kind of people such games attract. That's the kind of player that makes paintball fun in for me.

And again, some people will go the full pneumag route, and hats off to them. They'll probably be in the minority, and most interested people may very well just opt for more modest setups.

And in the worst case, if you feel the rules really are that dumb, then you may feel free not to play.

But there are some of us that would like to give the idea a chance.

Yep.

I think you missed the part where overly reactive triggers are disallowed. How good are you without the RT trigger?




C'mon folks. HOW GOOD ARE YOU WITHOUT BATTERIES?

[skipdogg]

This conversation is why I really have no interested in "mech only" games (or for that matter open class pump).

It does not change the game. I might as well play with ramping electros as the game experience is virtually the same.

One of the things AO is guitly of IMO is a desire for "mech only games" not to change the game format or play style but to give those shootings mags a technical advantage through ROF.

I think your overthinking this. On a national scale then points made on this post may be valid. however, for a local field to do this whether its a tournament or open game, you are going to get 90% tippmanns and spyder/pirahna's. So most of the technicalities debated here on ROF are irrelevant.

[OPBN]

I think you missed the part where overly reactive triggers are disallowed. How good are you without the RT trigger?

I guess I did. Disallowing reactive triggers would lessen the hosing depending on your definition.

As for your question about how good I am without a RT? I never claimed to be good either way actually. Simply expressing how I utilize a reactive trigger.

[Justus]

So a guy comes to the field with a Qloaded pneumag. Then you're going to say "okay, no pneumatic triggers" or "okay, no spring-loaded hoppers". Do we really need page after page of equipment limitations?

My point was that you stated in your post that the goal of making the rules "battery free" was to limit the ROF. But "battery free" will not achieve that goal, and I've shown a couple examples of how that plays out. My RT video showed an effectively "battery free" setup shooting 20.5 BPS in a game, and it was purely by accident.

Why make rules for a desired goal with the knowledge that there are loopholes that people can and will exploit? Just say that the game will have a limited ROF and be done with it.

Of course if you've now changed your tune, and instead are wanting to make these rules to encourage mechanical innovation, then I'll point out that it's not necessary to set some people up for failure in an actual game. Just post a contest to see it happen. That way the people who use a shake & bake with a blowback Tippmann don't get pasted and leave feeling like they got cheated. See below...

I think your overthinking this. On a national scale then points made on this post may be valid. however, for a local field to do this whether its a tournament or open game, you are going to get 90% tippmanns and spyder/pirahna's. So most of the technicalities debated here on ROF are irrelevant.

So you're okay with that remaining 10% having a huge, game-changing advantage? That's not a level playing field, that's a setup for a slaughter.

Anyone can say "if you think it's dumb then don't play", but how far do you take it? If people are informed ahead of time to expect that a certain number of people on the field will have a huge firepower advantage due to their ability to legally exploit the rules, you can rest assured that the interest level will drop dramatically.

OR a game where everyone uses a rental gun, that is actually fun!

This would actually work. Instead of making vague limitations on equipment that fail assure an even playing field... just issue standardized equipment in the first place.


But nobody who is proposing the "mech only" rules as a way to limit the ROF has even addressed my point: Why not just have a simple rule limiting ROF if that's the actual goal? If 12.5 bps PSP ramping is too much, make the limit 8 bps semi-only. Any other set of rules that is proposed to achieve that goal, without actually setting the ROF limit, just leads to exploitation based upon the known ambiguity.

[Lohman446]

So you're okay with that remaining 10% having a huge, game-changing advantage? That's not a level playing field, that's a setup for a slaughter.

And this is why I look at the call for "mech-only" games on this board with a bit of skepticism. Those calling loudest for it (assuming most people on this board own mags) are also those who would most likely see the largest perceived avantage. I wonder if its really coincidental.

[skipdogg]

So you're okay with that remaining 10% having a huge, game-changing advantage? That's not a level playing field, that's a setup for a slaughter.

If you think a RT mag against a mech spyder is a slaughter then I find that funny. Like I said I play pump versus electros,....so maybe my view is jaded. If you live in a area where your local field can hold a mech only event and all the players that show up are trying to find loopholes in the mech intent, then you live in a interesting place. I still stand by my position that at nearly ALL of 'your' local fields, 90%+ that would show up to a mech only event have spyders, etc. And holy heck if experience and skill wouldn't be the best determination of who gets slaughtered.

[cockerpunk]

people are way too concerned with what guns the other team has.

wanna play pump, play with a pump. want to play mech, do it. what gun the other guy has shouldn't make any difference at all to you.

playing a 3 man tournament with all pump guns:



stop worry about what the other team shoots, and play.

[skipdogg]

people are way too concerned with what guns the other team has.

wanna play pump, play with a pump. want to play mech, do it. what gun the other guy has shouldn't make any difference at all to you.

Agreed.

[Lohman446]

I think the advantage of rate of fire is overstated unless we are talking getting down to stock class (rock and cock) rate of fire. That is why I ultimately think "mech only" tournaments are "meh". They result in no different game than what is played in a standard tournament with the exception of possible paint breakage issues.

Now I think the identical provided equipment idea is interesting

[OPBN]

See, this is where the thread is veering a bit off from what I thought was originally being discussed in the other thread that got move here. I am interested in an Old School marker game where the older the better marker is brought out and encouraged. Giving out awards for rarest makers, oldest marker etc. If you had enough guys getting together to have a squad of Mag guys going against a squad of Cocker guys and such. I really could care less about mech, electro or whatever, I would like to just see a game with some really old cool markers on the field. I recently went to a CPPL gathering at a localish field and was actually surprised at some of the markers brought out. At one point, there was me with my Mag, another guy with a Palmers, 2-3 guys with cockers and some dude with an old Pro Carbine. Afterwards, we all were in the staging area admiring each others markers and such. It was cool.

[Lohman446]

See, this is where the thread is veering a bit off from what I thought was originally being discussed in the other thread that got move here. I am interested in an Old School marker game where the older the better marker is brought out and encouraged. Giving out awards for rarest makers, oldest marker etc. If you had enough guys getting together to have a squad of Mag guys going against a squad of Cocker guys and such. I really could care less about mech, electro or whatever, I would like to just see a game with some really old cool markers on the field. I recently went to a CPPL gathering at a localish field and was actually surprised at some of the markers brought out. At one point, there was me with my Mag, another guy with a Palmers, 2-3 guys with cockers and some dude with an old Pro Carbine. Afterwards, we all were in the staging area admiring each others markers and such. It was cool.

Is it possible to run a game with only markers that were in production pre-2000 (or pick a year)? If your goal is to have nostalgic markers why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?

[BTAutoMag]

I like that, a prize for "best vintage marker"

[Justus]

Is it possible to run a game with only markers that were in production pre-2000 (or pick a year)? If your goal is to have nostalgic markers why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?

Take this a step further:

If your goal is ______________________________ why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?


Just fill in the blank.

[Lohman446]

Take this a step further:

If your goal is ______________________________ why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?


Just fill in the blank.

I don't think that is an unreasonable concept. That being said there are technical limitiations. How do you enforce a ROF cap for instance on mech markers?

[BTAutoMag]

hand it to a ref and put it over a chrono. most do a measure of BPS... then you turn down the air pressure

[Lohman446]

hand it to a ref and put it over a chrono. most do a measure of BPS... then you turn down the air pressure

So we are testing the max BPS the ref can get over the chrono? What if the ref is really good at walking the trigger an I am not?

[athomas]

OR a game where everyone uses a rental gun, that is actually fun!

I bought my first ever paintball gun so that I wouldn't have to use a rental. The rentals were loose and it was hit or miss as to whether the balls went straight. With my own equipment, I could change barrels to fit the balls and know that I was depending on reliability due to my own maintenance regime and not relying on roughly used rental equipment.



I like Semi only games. I stay away from the mech only idea, because it limits the guy that only has one gun that he saved up form and it happens to be electronic. In general games, the refs just have to be more vigilant to stop guys from abusing reactive triggers. If a gun is found to be ramping or easily goes full auto due to a reactive trigger, then it gets pulled from the game. In tournaments that area gets clouded so it doesn't work. In tournaments, you can stipulate a more stringent set of rules though, for other limiting areas.

A high rate of fire never bothered me. I play X-ball, so it is expected and you get used to high rates of fire zinging past your head on a regular basis. Its a bit more intimidating for players that are new or don't have the speedball experience.

[BTAutoMag]

I ment for RT effect. its how they used to do tourneys. if the refs could bounce your trigger over a certain BPS youd be DQed

[Lohman446]

I ment for RT effect. its how they used to do tourneys. if the refs could bounce your trigger over a certain BPS youd be DQed

What tournies? Prior to PSP allowing ramping and instituting a non-enforceable (at the time) ROF cap the rule was one shot one pull and no trigger bounce. There was no BPS limit and no good way of measuring BPS accurately (the big red chronos claimed it but did not do it) Only recently has the technology gotten good enough to handily check for ROF reliably.

There was no bounce allowed at any of the PSP events I was playing at.