Low Pressure Mag

[Sandman]

So in the original post this whole concept is driven by the need to create a more efficient valve. Let's get back to that. How much more efficient is your goal over what the valve already gets in shots per tank. Is that goal, really worth the effort? Exactly how many more shots do we need out of a 68 4500psi tank? Is anyone willing to pay $300 for 5 percent? 10 percent? 15 percent? 20 percent? How many more shots and what is that worth seems to be the real question.
I for one would not buy a new valve for $300 for 10 or even 15 percent. So is it even possible to get a valve to increase efficiency by 20 percent? Even then, I'm not sure I would buy it. Is there enough lost energy to reach those kinds of goals?

[Shane-O-Mac]

First off, if you are using the actual pressure the gun fires at as your goal, you will have problem upon problem of making it efficient. Not saying its impossible, but LP was a by product of efficiency tuning. With our current X-valve, it only gets less shots per tank, as you cannot shoot deeper into the tank. But if you could measure exact amount of air used in each shot, I think you would find that LP/HP wont make that much difference. Second of all, GOG has basically made exactly what your wanting with the mech Ion like, Enemy. So keep in mind that shot for shot efficiency is completely different that tank usability. When I had an X-vlave Mag, I used a level 7 bolt and had very good shots per tank without modifying anything. You try and make a 200psi Mag valve and you will actually lose shot for shot efficiency in my opinion.

[Spider-TW]

Is that goal, really worth the effort?

Some people pay to shave grams off of their ego's, what's a little effort here or there? :)

[Flatliner333]

As Forest Gump said " I am not a smart man" and I'm not going to pretend I understand half of what has been said here. With that said would there be a way to harness the wasted air into reseting the bolt instead of losing it or does it do this already ? Dont they use this function in some real automatic weapons to reset the bolt?....be gentle....

[FPSmaniac152]

As Forest Gump said " I am not a smart man" and I'm not going to pretend I understand half of what has been said here. With that said would there be a way to harness the wasted air into reseting the bolt instead of losing it or does it do this already ? Dont they use this function in some real automatic weapons to reset the bolt?....be gentle....

This is true, but the pressures involvea are much greater in real firearms, in a paintball gun, while theoretically possible, it is impractical.

[Cokrkilr]

Its very ironic somebody brought up an ion in this thread, I was going to say build a valve out of two different marker designs... the ion/mag, and drop it in.... but didn't want to sound like a ratard... thanks for somebody bringing it in here first...

If you have access to all this equipment to build parts, why not bring back something that's long lost and people want... like a barrel back that accepts UL or freak tips.... since they are far and few between, or threaded adapters since those have gone away, 15* asa... I could go on and on about what people post in wtb ads here, but they are obsolete and nobody wants to part with them...

There's a money maker, and don't get all jazzy and have a front grip that costs as much as a decent gun. People don't have that scratch anymore.. well I don't, my $6 eBay grip is doing just fine....

Just sayin, your going down a road that's a dead end. Unless its for personal satisfaction

[OPBN]

Its very ironic somebody brought up an ion in this thread, I was going to say build a valve out of two different marker designs... the ion/mag, and drop it in.... but didn't want to sound like a ratard... thanks for somebody bringing it in here first...

If you have access to all this equipment to build parts, why not bring back something that's long lost and people want... like a barrel back that accepts UL or freak tips.... since they are far and few between, or threaded adapters since those have gone away, 15* asa... I could go on and on about what people post in wtb ads here, but they are obsolete and nobody wants to part with them...

There's a money maker, and don't get all jazzy and have a front grip that costs as much as a decent gun. People don't have that scratch anymore.. well I don't, my $6 eBay grip is doing just fine....

Just sayin, your going down a road that's a dead end. Unless its for personal satisfaction

Btw. Pretty sure Doc Nickel still make 15* Asa for AM rails as well as twist lock to AC adapters.

As for a marker using excess air to reset the bolt, Tippmanns do this. They also use the excess blowback to power Cyclone hoppers as well.

[Henchman]

Speaking of. Where can I find a 15* foregrip,nth at wont cost as much as a new barrel.

[Shane-O-Mac]

Btw. Pretty sure Doc Nickel still make 15* Asa for AM rails as well as twist lock to AC adapters.

As for a marker using excess air to reset the bolt, Tippmanns do this. They also use the excess blowback to power Cyclone hoppers as well.

Well they really do not use excess blowback air, they are designed to use air directed out of the valve specifically for those applications.

[OPBN]

Well they really do not use excess blowback air, they are designed to use air directed out of the valve specifically for those applications.

They use excess air. I guess it could be debated whether it would blow back or forward if it weren't directed sideways to power the cyclone.

[Shane-O-Mac]

They use excess air. I guess it could be debated whether it would blow back or forward if it weren't directed sideways to power the cyclone.

Let me separate the two.

The hammer is blown back after firing by design, not from excess air. The valve is designed to release some of the firing air to blow the hammer back so it can latch with the sear. You can plug the valves holes and stop the blow back air to make a pump Tippmann 98 or whatever.

The cyclone ram does use air from the same portion. So maybe it is excess, but all that air must go somewhere else if there isnt a cyclone ram, otherwise the hammer would have resistance when the spring moves the hammer forward.

[cockerpunk]

the issue you guys are all circling around is that PV=E pressure times volume equal energy in the case of expanding gases.

so fundamentally the OP is irreverent, once could just compensate for pressure with volume. but we live in the real world with real constraints on our our designs.

1. packaging, need to a reasonable sized gun
2. speed, gun has to cycle at reasonable speed
3. hard to get compressed air above a certain pressure, and the safety of its use is risky

these three constrains put us in the sub 1000 psi category more or less.

so why do some guns get better efficiency then others, not at all in correlation to there operating pressures or internal volumes?

two big reasons:

BECAUSE THE EFFICIENCY IN EXPANSION MATTERS

preventing pre expansion is your goal here. this is when you waste energy expanding the power pulse, before it gets to the ball. you would love nothing more then to put as much pressure as possible as close to the ball as possible, with as little flow restriction as possible to prevent wasting energy before you even put the paintball

having smooth and loss free expansion is also key. this gets more into fluid dynamics, and such, but suffice to say, flow path and restrictions matter here.

BECAUSE THE VALVE DYNAMICS MATTER

most guns, the valve of the gun is open for a long time after the paintball is gone, or long after they need to be open. ALWAYS BE CLOSING, good efficiency comes from re-corking the valve the millisecond it being open is no longer useful for the paintball. closing off the valve chamber is a stop gap at best here, as you will still see efficiency gains in over-dwelled spool valves because any pressure you can keep in the valve chamber, above gauge, is useful energy. no sense wasting it. always be closing ... always have a closing force on the valve ... always. this is why guns like the G3/4/5 have terrible efficiency, no closing force.

valve resolution matters as well. by this i mean you would ideally love your valve to go from closed and sealed to 100% open, in zero time. this is part of the above point, the pre expantion issue. this is the primary reason why poppits tend to be more efficient then spools, they strike the valve open, very very fast, gives you a very sharp pressure spike, which is good for efficiency. spool valves tend to be slower opening, which more wooshes the paintball, and this again, causes pre expansion issues in the barrel.


now, you might be going "cockerpunk, i thought you didn't want a big spike or dramatic spike in pressure, it will break paintballs, cause kick, makes the gun loud etc etc etc"

maybe so, but such are the trade-offs of design.

[Spider-TW]

the issue you guys are all circling around is that PV=E pressure times volume equal energy in the case of expanding gases.

so fundamentally the OP is irreverent, once could just compensate for pressure with volume. but we live in the real world with real constraints on our our designs.

1. packaging, need to a reasonable sized gun
2. speed, gun has to cycle at reasonable speed
3. hard to get compressed air above a certain pressure, and the safety of its use is risky

I still want to see a big, slow marker that is the ultimate in efficiency.

[athomas]

Cockerpunk summed it up nicely.

Its all a matter of what you are willing to give up to achieve your goal. Small size, speed, efficiency, gentleness, weight, low pressure. Pick any three or possibly 4, but you'll be hard pressed to get all 6 in the same package.