My idea (or half idea) for a closed bolt automag

[InvisibleBill]

Howdy. My theory is that the closed bolt design puts that gas that would normally exit through the elbow behind the ball, giving it better velocity. Thanks for giving you opinions! IB.



Geez, I didn't think this idea o' mine would spawn a some twenty odd replies...

[Kweasi]

Chris, Bill,

A ball will only go farther than another if:

1) It is fired at A HIGHER VELOCITY (capitalized because this is the big one).

2) It is fired from a higher elevation.

3) It is fired at a steeper angle (though equal to or less than 45 degree to the horizontal).

4) It is fired on a planet/plantoid will less gravitational force than the first.

5) It is fired in an environment will less air resistance.

6) The second paint is made in such a manner that it offers less air resistance.

Bolt configuration has possitvely nothing to do with range. Repeat: Bolt configuration has possitvely nothing to with range. If you insist that you have observed a closed bolt marker shooting further than an open-bolt marker when they both fire at the exact same paint at the same veloctiy then you are an idiot and/or a liar (flatlines and other backspin devices aside). That sounds harsh, and it is, but it is completely inexcuseable that this absurd myth is allowed to continue, especially here.

-Kweasi

[mikebridge]

heh, ok, could it be possible that closed bolt systems are more gas efficient than open bolt systems? since the entire air charge will be used to drive the ball down the barrel, instead of some it escaping the feed tube? and does your phantom fire farther because of some intrinsic quality, or is it because of how you are firing it? aka, 1 shot, wait 1 second, 1 shot, as opposed to your semi, where you fire 3 quick shots, then wait, 3 quick shots. one will be more consistent than the other.

[thei3ug]

It can be more efficient until the ends of the earth. It will not matter. The chronograph measures velocity after the ball leaves the barrel. LONG after the gun has stopped affecting the ball. For all purposes, if those balls are going the same speed, are fired from the same spot, they will go ABOUT the same distance (being subject to the elements, of course).

possibilities why one flew farther:
1) You WANT to believe the ball goes farther, so that's what you see. It's a common human condition. Eyes are the worst recording devices for measurements.
2) They chronoed in differently.
3) One of their adjusters backed out.
4) CO2 fluctuates enough to change the velocity of one or the other.
5) God decided physics doesn't apply to your guns.

[314159]

a couple of the previous posts forgot to make the following points.

the more money you spend on a marker, the farther it will shoot *

adding a pump arm to anything makes it shoot farther.... this includes the automag vs pumpmag, autococker/sniper 2...

closed bolt operation "0wn3z" physics, it will make you shoot further, more accurate, have your paintballs follow other physics... even as you approach high rates of fire, and closed bolt operation mimics open bolt operation, closed bolt still is better

some mornings i wake up and wonder why i even bother with certan types of people

*i have seen people that make the argument that their marker shoots futher than brand x marker carry tools to change their velocity on the field.

[InvisibleBill]

Okay, why does the pump arm make it shoot farther? Thanks, IB. Oh, yeah, kweasi, wouldn't that extra gas that hits the ball in a closed bolt gun give it the more veloctiy?

[Kweasi]

Read very carefully:

We all agree that setting aside things like air resistance and the angle and elevation of the shooting platform, the thing that decides range is velocity- yes? Right, Good.

We all agree that velocity is the speed of a ball as measured by a chronograph- after it has left the barrel- yes? Right, good.

So, that means that whatever the bolt does to the ball before it exits the barrels doesn't mean dink-all, since it's the velocity of the ball AFTER IT LEAVES THE BARREL that's important- Yes? Right? Good!

So, that means that open-bolts and closed-bolts, if firing at the same velocity fire at the same range- YES!! RIGHT!! GOOD!!! DAMMIT!!!!

You guys are making my blood pressure go through the ROOF!

-Kweasi

[Have Blue]

IB, the pump arm does not make anything shoot farther - it was a statement made in jest. It would be like claiming that a double trigger will make a gun shoot farther.

To put Kweasi's post another way, if you have a cocker and a mag sitting side-by-side, and both are chrono'd to 285, the closed bolt gun will not have a higher velocity - they are both shooting 285!

[InvisibleBill]

okay, thanks for you comments...now, though, I am stumped on my design/idea. So could you help by giving Ideas? thanks IB.

[PBpunk]

my autococker shoots father AND flater then a mag cause its a closed bolt design cause the magical blue fairys make it work better cause they only like closed bolts

[magman007]

bill, why would you wanna ruin sometiin that is perfect? making a mag closedbolt i think would not add any advantages, it would be cool and be like BIZZWAH WOOT! closedbolt mag Yeah....but i cant see any actual use for it. also, how would you return the bolt? you would have to stup using the spring

[Kaiser Bob]

Open bolt vs. Closed bolt hehehe... They both operate the same at a rate of fire more then a couple bps. Air will still come up the breech of a cocker if you fire a string of shots.

PS- 300 fps is 300 fps. Even if the extra air down the barrel gave a higher velocity, you would still need to turn it down to 300 fps :)

[InvisibleBill]

blue fairies?? I have orange fairies that bless my mag every day. beat that!:) The only reason I would ever think of turning a mag into a closed bolt operation is for the fun of it, and it was fun to think of how I would turn the mag into a closed bolt gun, because there isn't much else to think about when you a swimming a timed 400 five times in a row. Rock on, IB

[The Creature]

ok, this thread has a lot to do with open vs closed bolt and i need to say the following.

1) open bolt and closed bolt markers will attain the SAME DISTANCE!

2) closed bolt markers ARE MORE ACCURATE AT LONGER DISTANCES than open bolt!

The fact is ANYONE who has shot a cocker (with good paint/barrel match...VERY IMPORTANT) and shot any open bolt gun, they will deffinently say the cocker was more accurate. this is not because they love the gun, or are "cocker jocks" or that kind of crap...the fact is the gun really is DEAD ON ACCURATE AT ALL DISTANCES from when it leaves the barrel to when it hits the ground.

the further away your target is, the more accurate a closed bolt cocker will be. anyone can sit here and blab on and on about physics and why this and that is true or false, but the simple fact remains that if you shoot a cocker and then shoot lets say a mag, the accuracy up close (say 30 yards) is identicle...however at a further distance (lets say 50 yards) the paintballs shot from the cocker will have a far more stable and identicle trajectory than the mags, thus making the gun more accurate.

I currently own a minimag with a freak barrel system. my friend owns a 2002 stock vert feed cocker with a J&J barrel. in any event we wanted to test which of our guns was more accurate. we both used PMI premium paint for our tests (i had the correct freak incert and *the paint* is the same bore size as the J&J). we held our guns at the same angle perpendicular to the ground and fired a string of 15 rounds each. my gun (the mag) was just as accurate as his cocker for approximately the first 35 yards. after that my gun would be inconsistant, meaning the ball did not always end up remaining in a straight line. my friend's cocker retained the same perfect line of paint from start to finish. ball after ball would stay in a near perfect line one after the other. same at 10 yards, 20 yards, 30 yards all the way till it hit the ground i'd say about 50-60 yards away. i did the same test with his cocker and my tippmann and my mag and my tippmann (the tippmann also had a J&J barrel) and was no where near the cocker and less consistant than the mag. the same test was preformed with a spyder xtra, flash and compaq. none of those guns came close to the cocker, and all had a J&J barrel. all guns were run on compressed air also. the only gun that preformed nearly identicle to the cocker was an angel.

no physics was needed for this test, the results spoke for themself. the fact is that cockers in general, when working properly...when we did this test my friend had taken the gun stock from the box and not touched a thing on it meaning it was all factory timed and working perfectly, are a more accurate gun than any open bolt. i only speak for cockers when i say closed bolt, because i have not had any experiece with any other closed bolt gun.

if anyone says open bolt vs close bolt is a myth, then before making yourself look like a fool go and compare a properly timed and working cocker to any other open bolt gun and prove to yourself that you're an idiot, instead of wasting other people's time doing it for you.

[FreshmanBob]

Originally posted by chris99506
my phantom shoots further and straighter than my spyder or my rt, i'm not saying it's way way better but it is noticeable.

Then maybe your phantoms velocity tends to spike w/ 12 grams?

As far as the moving mass goes, someone do me a favor an weigh an autococker hammer and an automag bolt, i doubt there will be much difference..