AGD's Relply to the Wait on Xmags (long)

[AutomagRT1483]

I have heard alot of what Tom is saying from Steve with Aerostar of Milwaukee (props going out to my dealer) I dont care how long it takes to get my X-mag, because when I get it I know its going to be the best marker I have ever owned, period. Thanks AGD!

[Mav D MagMan]

Thanks Mr. Kaye!

I really appreciate you keeping us informed and letting everyone know how the cow ate the cabbage.

I've noticed a lot of gripe threads lately and haven't really understood what it was all about, thank you for the insite as well.

You're doing a great job and I applaud your efforts (and obvious ability to run AGD right!)

Mav
(Loyal AGD Customer and Mag Lover)

BTW I wouldn't be too worried about those X-Mags, I'm hearing the name more often (outside of the AGD circle), and if all goes well they should get the jump in the main populace that you're hoping for. I know your average every day mag already has. Give it time, if it catches in South California, it'll be big soon enough

[Frank (the spank)]

Anyone else think that streamlining would be a good idea here?

I work for Apple Computer (hey, I use to work for IBM and them Intel, so I have SOME credit, lol) and before Steve Jobs made his return the company was in the toilet. They had too many product lines and most of the time they got stuck with crap in their warehouses and had to sell at a loss. They then licensed it's OS to other companies.. what happened? They sold faster machines that were cheaper than Apples. Why? Streamline. They had a low, a mid, and a high end system. that was it. No "performa 2 3 556 678 and 4567" and then a completely different line with more shades of grey..

Steve Jobs came back... first thing he did was yank 3rd party licenses, 2nd.. streamline Apple.

Today there is the 4 square. We have a high end Desktop (PowerMac), a low end desktop (iMac), a high end notebook (PowerBook) and a low end notebook (iBook). Then three models for each, and the only difference is options, more ram, faster CPU and thats about it.

AGD... do the same! dump the RT and the E-Mag, make a low and a high and thats it.

Make some sorta ULE Classic, then an Xmag, and from there have color options and accessories.

Am I alone here in thinking that would be a good move? just a suggestion. I'll shut up now and go back to waiting on my front porch in the fetal position for the UPS dude.. (got aFlateline coming :) )

[dre1919]

While I appreciate the fact that Tom comes to the forum board and provides answers and insight as to what goes on at AGD, I still say "thumbs down" to his post. Sorry...but that's my thought. Someone here can correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure they would), but I believe AGD has been around longer than WDP, correct? So, for whatever reasons WDP has risen to the top of the paintball world...they make a nice marker and they charge for it too. But, you know what else they do? They MAKE them...lots of them. I can walk down to the proshop here in town right now and buy one if I choose to.

I'm not trying to say WDP makes better markers and paintball equipment than AGD, since I personally love AGD products and have for a long time, but they are a good example of obviously doing something right. Now I've heard rumors they're somewhat unethical in their business practices, and frankly I don't care...that's their business. The fact remains they are a good product, and have the top slot as the most widely accepted "best marker in paintball." Seeing's how they've been around less time than AGD, that tells me they've been more agressive with their business practices.

I'm sorry AGD has such a problem with the public outcry for X-Mags, but honestly, what the hell did you expect? I mean, here you have a loyal legion of followers that love you're products...no wait, DEFEND you're products everytime we go to a field and somebody says "Why do you shoot a Mag, that's so old." All we wait for is a chance to have an AGD marker that's truly top-flight, not just supposed to be (hello, classic RT! I've got one, it isn't that hot.) Anyway, finally, our prayers get answered and we get the first glimpse of what could be...a sophisticated, yet simple marker with agressive milling and technology that rivals the top cat's (Angel). Finally, we loyal AGD shooters can get a flagship marker that rewards our loyalty...but then we get told we have to wait six months for one.

Then, we further get told the X-Mag will never be a full production marker, more of just a side show attraction or collectors item. Plus, we even have to go so far as hearing the President of our favorite company say he'd rather not make them in the first place because they're too expensive and whatnot. Well, hello Tom...$1500 is pretty damn expensive to lay out for a marker too but I wouldn't complain if one was available. I'm willing to put the cash on the line for one, why aren't you?

I have said from the beginning in any post I made on this subject, if you're going to be in the game, be in the game. The X is expensive to create? Deal with it. Go get loans, do whatever you gotta do because if you don't, the business end of the paintball world (the one holding all the cards) will call you're bluff and take you to the bank. My opinion is, if the X was too expensive to create and you knew the logistical support to create it en masse wasn't there, you never should have made it in the first place...or, you should have held it in secret until you had a bunch of them. I understand you don't wanna have a ton of them sitting around, then release word of them and have no one buy them, but that's business...risks. The one's you take and one's you don't.

The X would probably be one that would work out for you, but that might never be known since it'll never come out in great numbers. All that will happen is one day down the road you'll say "The cost to produce them got too high so we had to discontinue the idea altogether." Meanwhile, WDP continues to just crank out high end gun after high end gun. With the current strategy as it is, AGD will never enjoy more than a minor share in the overall big business world of paintball. If you guys are comfortable with that, I'm cool with it too. But I know I'd rather see AGD in WDP's place than them, simply because of the customer service and the quality products. Sorry ya'll, I'm not trying to bash AGD, but this is my opinion on the X issue.

[Blennidae]

I think there are 2 types of Xmag customers.

Type 1: The loyal AGD customer who wants the best of the breed.

Type 2: The "gun whore" (for lack of a better term). The person who wants the latest and greatest thing out there. Not looking for a long term commitment, just wants to be able to say they have owned an Xmag. Will sell or trade it for something else that catches their eye at the drop of a hat.

Who do you think complains the most?

Just my opinion.

[Recon by Fire]

Type 3: The brand new AGD customer who wants to buy a flagship marker after such good reviews from friends.

Guess which one I am? :)

[MinimagRockin']

Props, Mr. Kaye, on stepping up to the plate and answering honestly. Your explanation my not make anyone any happier about the wait but at least we know why now, which is what I wanted to know personally. As for all you guys with your lips planted firmly on Tom's *** in this thread, please knock it off, it's pathetic.

[Lopy-slopy]

The one thing I think you should stop doing is hypeing things so much so far in advance of their relesse. take the X-mag. AO knew about it like 6 months before it came out. People started to save up for them and get really horny for one. Then when they are rellesed they are told to wait 6 months as they are back orderd. After a while they deside they can get a nice matrix or angle right now with the money the have piled up for an X-mag so they go and buy it. If you had 500 X-mags reddy at realese they would sell like mad. Just work on your timing. Do some test runs, make sure they are perfect then see if theirs a big demmand for them. If their is make a lot THEN reallese them and you will sell more and more people will be happy. When something is first realessed it is all people are talking about. By the time you usualy have somthing in full swing the hype has died down and less people want it.

[damageinc54]

Re: AGD's Reply to the Wait on Xmags (long)

Tom, I still do not understand why you did not offer the X-mag body for sale seperatly like the ULE bodys. Sell it as an entire gun fine, but at the same time sell it as an upgrade kit to all the guys out here that already have an Emag. I went to Fox to pick up some practice paint and I saw the last X-mag they had. I even put some finger prints on it. It came with a 1450.00 price tag. How many guys really have the money to drop on one in a heartbeat? I would not even consider buying one unless I had already sold my current Emag. At the same time what would be the advantage for me to sell my Emag and buy an Xmag? The only difference between my current Emag and the Xmag is the aluminum valve, the body, and the anti chop eye that we dont need anyway with the level 10. The performance of my gun is no different from the Xmag. All I would get by swithcing guns is a differnt body and a few ounces off the valve. I am not going to take a loss on my current Emag and drop another 1450.00 on pretty much the same gun. I paid 1300.00 for my Red Emag and a 68/3000 Flatline. My team mate DJGruv bought his black stock Emag on Ebay for 700.00 brand new. The X-mag runs 1450.00 alone. I think the Xmag is way over priced. You could buy a new stock Emag right now, install a level 10 and a ULE body on it, and you have almost the same gun as an Xmag for a much cheaper price. I support AGD products, just look at my sig. It is my opinion though that the Xmag is overpriced, is taking way to long to produce, and offers very little in the way of an upgrade to current Emag owners.

[demonguy8]

Heres the problems I see with the Xmag and AGD in general

1. No pro team sponsorships....

2. No big ad campaigns..

3. Xmag is overpriced currently... Take an emag +ule body and you get ~1000 invested... The only thing missing is the ACE... are you saying an ACE + milling costs 500? If so your screwing yourself... Granted since the Supply is smaller than the current demand, its still a good business move to keep them at that price.

4. You took the opinions of the ~20ish people that said they wanted the roller trigger and translated that into: make 1000 kits.. Those 20 only mean AT MOST 20 gaurunteed sales.. It was not a good indication of market support since the people that didnt want one most likely passed the thread up or didnt reply..

5. The reason WDP is much more successful is because they dont sell straight to the consumers... They convice the retailers that the product rocks, and the retailers buy them... Risk is minimized for the intial seller. Their products dont have to be godly, they just have to APPEAR godly and the retailers will invest because they think they will sell...

[Yamz]

I know I dont post often I perfer to just read and get all the information that I can. That said I read most if not all the complaining post and all the we worship TK post both have a good point of view and both make valid points. At the same time neither stops to really look at what the others are complaining about or what the others are kissing Toms but over. Tom is only a man trying to run his company and yes he has to take chances. Before he takes a chance he has to consider the PROS and CONS of taking that chance. In the case of the X-Mag he picked a form of middle ground he relased something he did not have to relase at all (being that the design is AGD-E) but he did not make a all out jump into it. Look at it this way you see a lake on a hot day and think that a swim in it could be fun. You could just say nope to dangerous, you pick the middle ground and slowly walk on in, or for those of you who want to take large risks just dive on in. now lets look at what happens the people who pass it up will never know what they missed the person who gets in slowly finds that it real shallow and with jagged rocks everywere and before hes hurt can pull back out the person who dives in finds out the water is too shallow and with many jagged rocks as his head is smashed and neck is broken. The X-Mags cost more than your everyday person is willing to spend. why make tons of $1000+ markers when the majorty of people are still shooting markers that cost less than $200. i for one would have not made a surplus of the X-Mag

Now that everyone has started to form their opinions of me let me just say I am on the pre-order list Via logic paintball and I have already given Logic the money for it when the time comes. I am not going to just jump on the next X-Mag that shows up with no owner because I dont want to screw the dealer I have my order with.

[shartley]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
If you told me tomorrow a store had a blue/black fade X-Mag on the wall (hopefully matte) I'd be calling them all day long trying to get it from them but if I don't know the gun exists that's not my fault. I spoke to you personally regarding Adventure Games and you told me to wait it out, I contacted you again and you told me she cancelled. What can I do if the dealers that do have them in the pipeline don't know how to get to the customers that want them?

[50 cal]

The long waits are from the ridiculous colors customers are requesting. Make 'em like Henry Ford did....You can have any color you want as long as it's black!
You get the kids with thier "I want it purple to pink fade with smiley faces all over" finish and yeah it's gonna take time, lot's of time.
I work in the firearms industry, if you want custom, take it to a custom shop.
You make a killer product Tom, you just agonize over what some people think too much. Yeah, satisfy the customer, just don't go broke over it.

[G-Rock]

GO GET THEM TOM KAYE, YOU ROCK MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man I love it when tom comes up and says what he feels, makes me all warm and fuzzy inside!

Quit your complaining, I waited for mine and it is worth the wait!! You will not be disapointed, trust me, I know.

Plus what are you going to get in return, an Angel (only thing that might compare), a Timmy (suck, just a souped up spyder), an impulse (heck twice the height of a mag), or a Ebladed cocker (still got to time the dang thing, and that is a pain in the arse), so what would you get to replace it.

Nothing is can replace the quality and reliability you get with the X-mag.

So shut up and wait on it. Man!!

Tom I appreciate what I have, thank you bro!!

Chris Geiger

[steveg]

Sam, I don't think Dirty is being unfair at all, If Tom is
aware of dealers with "dead" products, on one hand and
on the other hand has a bunch of (apparently ungratefull whiners)
people clamouring for that same product,
(and HIS product to boot) than it seems a dis-service to both his
dealer, and his and her potential customer, to not introduce each to the other.

Want to bet that Tom's offhanded remark about that one
maker doesn't result in it's sale by the end of the week.

Oh and Tom, lay of the tiresome anti-Matrix remarks it
does nothing for your credability.(Happy mag and Matrix owner)