AGD's Relply to the Wait on Xmags (long)

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by Blennidae
...Who do you think complains the most?

Type 1, without a doubt. They are the folks with the most invested (non-monetarily) in the marker.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by dre1919
My opinion is, if the X was too expensive to create and you knew the logistical support to create it en masse wasn't there, you never should have made it in the first place...

Did you actually read Tom's post? The whole problem with the X-Mag is that AGD DIDN'T make it. AGD Europe created the Extreme and X-Mag, people spotted it, wanted it and then suddenly there's huge demand for X-Mags in the USA - however the people who actually produce the bodies do so only on a scale sufficient to supply demand in the UK/Europe.

I believe AGD Europe is actually an entirely separate company (Powerpulse) to AGD 'proper' and that either they, or the company who designed the milled body, own the rights to the design.

AGD-US have no way of producing the bodies themselves and no way of controlling who manufactures them for AGD Europe. They have to sit and wait for shipments from Europe and then colour, assemble and test the full markers.

I'd be willing to bet that Tom wishes the X-Mag body had never seen the light of day - as AGD would have been far better off shipping standard E-Mags with ULE bodies/rails/grips and X-Valves - all components that they can control the production of.

[shartley]

Originally posted by steveg
Sam, I don't think Dirty is being unfair at all, If Tom is
aware of dealers with "dead" products, on one hand and
on the other hand has a bunch of (apparently ungratefull whiners)
people clamouring for that same product,
(and HIS product to boot) than it seems a dis-service to both his
dealer, and his and her potential customer, to not introduce each to the other.

What can I do if the dealers that do have them in the pipeline don't know how to get to the customers that want them?

[luke]

Tom,
In regard to X-Mags hanging on the wall of your dealers shops, until someone from AO finds them should have rang a bell. I don't remember you ever listing dealers that MAY still had them in stock. It seems to me, you could have relieved some pressure by simply listing the names and phone numbers of your dealers that could possibly still have them. (You still could )

[luke]

Sam I didn't see your last post before I submitted what I did. So in response to " Again, it would be great if there was a database with all dealers and what markers they had, and AGD could direct folks to them? however, you run into problems such as:" This could be done by simply listing names and phone numbers. I don't think it would be necessary to list available inventory

[shartley]

Originally posted by luke
Tom,
In regard to X-Mags hanging on the wall of your dealers shops, until someone from AO finds them should have rang a bell. I don't remember you ever listing dealers that MAY still had them in stock. It seems to me, you could have relieved some pressure by simply listing the names and phone numbers of your dealers that could possibly still have them. (You still could )

http://www.automags.org/resource/links/stores_fields.shtml

And that is on THIS site. And if you walked over to the AGD main site, you will see that they have a whole list of dealers with links to their actual sites.

http://www.airgun.com/dealers.shtml

Adventure Games NH had the first 9 to come off the assembly line with no preorders. She wanted to cut it back to two but I told her to come to the AO dealers section and sell them. She did and got no takers in the auction she set up, she only took two.

[steveg]

Sam one of the things that I personally would not do is
participate in an auction especially for a new retail
product, given the lack of response, others might have
thought on similar lines.

As you mention cars, one of the neat things about buying
cars in Canada is that dealers are not allowed to sell
above MRSP. what this means is that when a new model comes
out there is no price gouging. I bought my 92 MX-3 new
within weeks of it's N.A. introduction at MRSP and not a penny more.

The intent of an auction is to see how much people are
willing to pay, My bet is that people didn't respond
because of the uncertainty and disapointment of not
winning and the possability of paying more that necessary
for it (the marker)

certainly a dedicated buyer should do some leg work
but at the same time is not obliged to pay "Any" price

I get the impression that Tom knows many of the dealers
personally, that would suggest that keeping track of
limited high-end marker sales a bit less odious and be
consistant with the "personal touch" that AGD is reputed to have.

[dre1919]

Originally posted by Gadget


Did you actually read Tom's post? The whole problem with the X-Mag is that AGD DIDN'T make it. AGD Europe created the Extreme and X-Mag, people spotted it, wanted it and then suddenly there's huge demand for X-Mags in the USA - however the people who actually produce the bodies do so only on a scale sufficient to supply demand in the UK/Europe.

I believe AGD Europe is actually an entirely separate company (Powerpulse) to AGD 'proper' and that either they, or the company who designed the milled body, own the rights to the design.

AGD-US have no way of producing the bodies themselves and no way of controlling who manufactures them for AGD Europe. They have to sit and wait for shipments from Europe and then colour, assemble and test the full markers.

I'd be willing to bet that Tom wishes the X-Mag body had never seen the light of day - as AGD would have been far better off shipping standard E-Mags with ULE bodies/rails/grips and X-Valves - all components that they can control the production of.

Have you actually read your post? First of all, I doubt AGD Europe is an entirely seperate company and even if they are, fine, it only proves my point even more. If Tom Kaye saw the body and said "You know what? That's pretty cool but it's gonna be the hardest piece in paintball to mill properly and I don't really have the resources to make it happen", at that point he should have walked away from it. He should have came here and said "AGD Europe has this cool body you can get for your E-Mag, so talk to them if you want it." Or, he could have completely left it alone and never said anything...only directing people AGDE's way when they fielded him questions about it. However, this is all irrelevant since he didn't do this...what he did was come out with this hype about the gun as though it was their new "flagship" marker (see front page of airgun.com). We always want the newest, best thing so it became common belief that this marker was it and that made everyone want one.

My point from above is, you can't come out with something more revolutionary than anything else your company offers, especially in front of your most loyal customers (AO Members) and not expect a heavy demand for it. Then, to make it worse, his post makes him sound as though he's complaining about us complaining about it. Gee, I'm sorry...I'd love to have a modern, technically superior AGD product that rivals the Angel because right now we (AGD customers) don't have one. So, in summation, if you're going to make a super product...make the damn thing and let's get on with it. If you're comfortable staying in the market share you already have, fine...stay there. But don't tease us with something many of us have been waiting for for years and then dangle it in front of us for six months. That's BS.

[luke]

SAM,
Shows what I know and how much I "surf"! To be honest I've never seen those two links, but I've never looked either.

What I don't understand is there's X-Mags available, people are screaming for them, but, for what ever reason the link between buyer and seller is not being made. You can put the blame on what ever you like, but it still wont fix the problem. I'm merely trying to point out that perhaps some other approach should be made, regardless of who should be doing what. It may NOT be Toms responsibly to help advertise his dealers stores, but if it increases sells what could it hurt. By that, I mean names and numbers not inventory. I'm sure his dealers are greater in number than the links that you posted. There is a solution, it just needs to be found. :)

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by dre1919


Have you actually read your post? First of all, I doubt AGD Europe is an entirely seperate company and even if they are, fine, it only proves my point even more. If Tom Kaye saw the body and said "You know what? That's pretty cool but it's gonna be the hardest piece in paintball to mill properly and I don't really have the resources to make it happen", at that point he should have walked away from it. He should have came here and said "AGD Europe has this cool body you can get for your E-Mag, so talk to them if you want it." Or, he could have completely left it alone and never said anything...only directing people AGDE's way when they fielded him questions about it. However, this is all irrelevant since he didn't do this...what he did was come out with this hype about the gun as though it was their new "flagship" marker (see front page of airgun.com). We always want the newest, best thing so it became common belief that this marker was it and that made everyone want one.

My point from above is, you can't come out with something more revolutionary than anything else your company offers, especially in front of your most loyal customers (AO Members) and not expect a heavy demand for it. Then, to make it worse, his post makes him sound as though he's complaining about us complaining about it. Gee, I'm sorry...I'd love to have a modern, technically superior AGD product that rivals the Angel because right now we (AGD customers) don't have one. So, in summation, if you're going to make a super product...make the damn thing and let's get on with it. If you're comfortable staying in the market share you already have, fine...stay there. But don't tease us with something many of us have been waiting for for years and then dangle it in front of us for six months. That's BS.

You doubt AGDE is a seprate company? well...you're wrong. It is. AGDUS has no holdings in what goes on at AGDE. Why did Tom have to start selling XMags from AGDUS? Because they have a non compete clause where AGDE is not allowed to sell to the US market, nor is AGDUS allowed to sell in europe. So If i called AGDE today asking for an XMag they would say, yup we have 7 in stock, but sorry, we cant ship to the states. I would have to know someone in Europe to buy it for me, then have them ship it over to the states...quite an expense once you add in the 17.8% VAT tax....

The X-Mag is a HUGE hassle for AGD. But they have it where they want it. AGD does not WANT to have X-Mags sitting on the shelf (for better or worse). They dont WANT to have htem sitting in stock at AGD (although when it comes to complete markers, AGD goesnt keep much of anything in stock)

The E-Mag (now with ULE Grip, ULE Body, ULE Valve) Doesnt compete with an angel? Get outta here. whats the difference in the E-Mag and the X-Mag...pretty body, ACE(although unneeded with Level 10--something the angels dont have)....um....um....about half a pound? The E-Mags can SURELY keep up with hte Angels. No doubt about it. I owned a PTP EMag and kept up with those angel owners just fine in my tournys...


finally...do you know how much of a risk it is to preproduce the 1000 plus X-Mags it would take to have them readily available at its release? especially when AGDE can only give us 30 per month? It would have taken YEARS to make that supply, and they would have had to sit while more were being made. Its not fiscally sound to do that. When AGD can only get 30/month...they only get 30/month....

[dre1919]

Originally posted by Kevmaster

You doubt AGDE is a seprate company? well...you're wrong. It is.

Hmmm...that's very interesting...I wasn't aware of that. As I stated before in my post, "correct me if I'm wrong" and someone did. Cool.

The X-Mag is a HUGE hassle for AGD.

That seems like a problem between AGD and AGDE then.

The E-Mag (now with ULE Grip, ULE Body, ULE Valve) Doesnt compete with an angel? Get outta here. whats the difference in the E-Mag and the X-Mag...pretty body, ACE(although unneeded with Level 10--something the angels dont have)....um....um....about half a pound? The E-Mags can SURELY keep up with hte Angels. No doubt about it. I owned a PTP EMag and kept up with those angel owners just fine in my tournys...

Yeah? That's great. I keep up just fine with my Classic RT with a Hyperframe on it too, but I'd like something newer and nicer. There are a few points I could make here, and in the interest of not starting a flaming war I won't, but the fact remains that the Angel is regarded as the top marker in paintball. Period. This is opinion and perception, I know, but what I'm saying is the X-Mag could challenge it's spot. The E-Mag hasn't and never will... If you're happy with you're E-Mag, yay for you...personally I think they're heavy and ugly. They look like an RT with a battery pack.

finally...do you know how much of a risk it is to preproduce the 1000 plus X-Mags it would take to have them readily available at its release? especially when AGDE can only give us 30 per month? It would have taken YEARS to make that supply, and they would have had to sit while more were being made. Its not fiscally sound to do that. When AGD can only get 30/month...they only get 30/month....

Not realizing AGDE is a seperate entity and AGDUS is at their mercy impact's this point a lot, as I stated above. I was under the impression AGDUS was creating these, so that explains a lot.

[madmatt151]

Business....

I understand completely with the problems of business. I don't think the majority of the people complaining necessarily are complaining about the business practices of AGD, but the availability. I know personally I would love to see more AGD products in my local stores. I see none. When I go to my fields, people look at me like I am weird for using a MAG, and I am fine with that. Being a crazy car guy I can always compare car trends with many other things. I enjoy having a car that no one else has (or wants), even though it is a high performance car that is fun and great to drive. Does this mean I will call Ford and yell at them to make more and advertise, no. I would love it if more people knew about the car and appreciated it, but if not oh well. If AGD is content with the market they have then fine. If all of you expect Tom to make more X mags just so you can show off to the Angel owners out there, well, get realistic. If he wanted the market to be flooded with X magss I am sure he could do it. It seems he wants it to be a limited run, so fine. I persoanlly was upset at the unavailability of some of AGD products, but after reading Tom's post I understand more the mindset of the company. I owned a 1998 Z28 and really wanted an SS, but the availbility and waiting list made it a bit more expensive and unavailable than I could afford. I couldn't even imagine calling, emailing or posting to the President of the company and demanding they ramp up performance so I could have mine for a specific date. They would tell me exactly where to go! Tom is trying to be accomodating to us because he knows there is a demand, but be realistic people. If there was a REAL demand for these Xmags, the office would be getting phone calls from dealers and regular people all the time, probably like WDP does. Does this mean the WDP has better PR, maybe. Does this mean that Tom necessarily wants the same kind of market share as WDP, not necessarily. I kind of like the fact that the Xmag is a bit of an enigma, and may not be readily available. It makes it a bit more desirable. If it was as readily available as an Angel or Matrix, then it would just be another overpriced marker. Now we have a high end marker, and seeing as some of use enjoy owning High end stuff, this is a nice niche for AGD to be in. Sure there won't be dozens of them at the fields, but you will be different and some day soon, awed! It is the reason why people like me will wait until I can afford a high end stereo instead of the same old same old Sonys, Kenwoods, etc. Be proud of your AGD stuff, enjoy the smirks and gawks you get for owning them and have fun with it. Tom, roll with the punches that come with owning a business and hopefully the presense of a "high end" marker will spark business for you and keep you going strong.

Just my $.04, post was long :)

[fire1811]

well put madmatt151

[The Frymarker]

Oh I forgot I can actually go on a larger scale than my grips.

I know exactly where Tom is coming from.


My husband and I designed a vest for scenario paintball players. It cost us $150,000 dollars to make 5000. We had a bunch of people from the start that wanted them, we called every where to sell them.

Something that everyone told us was a great idea became the worst mistake we could ever make.

We had advertising, sales, everything. The vest went no where. When I look back on what we invested to make this product work and what we got back was futile.

It got to the point where we were actually just giving them away to family and friends.

I know exactly where he is coming from.

Think of it this way my husband said the mark up on markers isn't that high, producers maybe make a 1/3. So if a marker costs $1500, $1000 to make they make $500 off of it. Now think of it Tom made 300 to begin with cost $300,000.

That is a heavty chunk of change to just go on will they buy them? Now he is making another 500..... 1/2 million invested on promises to buy.

Now let's just say they go no where, he can only write of a percentage of that as a loss on his taxes.

These are just examples not truths I have no idea what the exact percentage is, but having come from making products on our own and what you really make from them, I truly feel for Tom.

I think Tom is just trying to let everyone know, hey this is where I'm coming from.

[shartley]

Originally posted by The Frymarker
Oh I forgot I can actually go on a larger scale than my grips.

I know exactly where Tom is coming from.


My husband and I designed a vest for scenario paintball players. It cost us $150,000 dollars to make 5000. We had a bunch of people from the start that wanted them, we called every where to sell them.

Something that everyone told us was a great idea became the worst mistake we could ever make.

We had advertising, sales, everything. The vest went no where. When I look back on what we invested to make this product work and what we got back was futile.

It got to the point where we were actually just giving them away to family and friends.

I know exactly where he is coming from.

Think of it this way my husband said the mark up on markers isn't that high, producers maybe make a 1/3. So if a marker costs $1500, $1000 to make they make $500 off of it. Now think of it Tom made 300 to begin with cost $300,000.

That is a heavty chunk of change to just go on will they buy them? Now he is making another 500..... 1/2 million invested on promises to buy.

Now let's just say they go no where, he can only write of a percentage of that as a loss on his taxes.

These are just examples not truths I have no idea what the exact percentage is, but having come from making products on our own and what you really make from them, I truly feel for Tom.

I think Tom is just trying to let everyone know, hey this is where I'm coming from.