Proposal for instant transmission of information, violating the speed of light.

[Watcher]

First of all I would like to address Watcher. I thought about your idea all night long, and unfortunately, it is impossible. All materials flex. So when one end was twisted, the twist itself would move down the material at less than the speed of light. The only way to get around this is to create a rod that is so thick that the flexion is minimalized. But that would require more material than there is in the universe. If you did have a material that didn't flex - which doesn't exist - it would take more energy than there is in the universe to twist it, assuming that you are trying to bypass the speed of light.

... given that there was no flex in the rod as soon as someone on one end twisted it the other end would twist as well.

Speaking in terms of no flex it is possible, you can't rebuke me for not addressing the issue.

In a perfect world paintballs don't curveball, cars pull NO2 out of the air to run on, and everyone has a personal cash mint with no inflation and reduced dollar cost...



How about we just ask "AGD" his opinion, I'm sure he can think of something we aren't.

[malJohann]

There is only ONE question here. If a circuit is 1 lightyear long, and it is closed on one end, how soon does the other end KNOW that it is closed?


Here's a flipping diagram.

1 ----------------------------a whole lightyear----------------------------------------------- 2

The switch is at 1.

The battery is at 2.

The switch is closed. Now then, will the battery instantly START to send power down the line, or will it take a year? Why?

I understand your question, thanks. The answer lies in my reply you flipped your lid about. No diagrams or further explanation necessary.

And to answer your sun question, the current cannot flow down to an open switch.

Something tells me you're not sure about this, which would be the reason you're asking us. If you don't like the answer, don't shoot the messenger.

[halB]

You know, I'm just gonna close this thread. It's not drawing the right sort of people.

[Watcher]

You know, I'm just gonna close this thread. It's not drawing the right sort of people.

If you posted an idea, you posted it for insight, clarification, and other concepts. You can't expect for everyone to immediately understand and side with you, and you can't also expect to have nobody rebuttle and find flaws in logic.

You also asked in your first post to "please debunk this for me. MY IDEA,".

Ideas are meant to be bent, twisted, broken, re-arranged, and proved/disproved. You can't get angry at anyone except yourself. It is hypocratic to ask for help and then fail to recognise it; like those people who sue their rescuers...


The concept of the switch opening and electricity flowing was answered in the water analogy. In order for more water to enter the stream, the space the water occupied must first be drained. That is what the damn does, when the damn is opened the water drains the rest of the water fills in the missing space the drained water took up. This "space" will travel up the stream to the mouth and when it reaches there then that water will begin to flow.

So no, the electriciy must move through the switch in order for the battery to output more power and thusly it is not going to be faster than light...


Learning without thought is labor lost, thought without learning is powerless...

[GRimm]

That is how the world works, not everyone will see your idea as you do, its called constructive criticism. I'm not sure how the people posting in this thread are the wrong type of people, its not like we have it out for you.

Learning without thought is labor lost, thought without learning is powerless...

If we were able to have signitures here, I'd put this in it.

[teufelhunden]

What if you had a battery at each end; that way, as soon as the circuit is closed, both batteries begin flowing electrons through the circuit. This way, you could transmit information; as soon as the circuit is closed at the sending end, the battery at the receiving end would begin to send electricity, and from there a binary sequence could be determined.

That said, I can't answer the initial question of how does the circuit know it is closed and how long that takes. And I have no background in this.

[Dark Side]

[QUOTE=halB]First of all I would like to address Watcher. I thought about your idea all night long, and unfortunately, it is impossible. All materials flex. So when one end was twisted, the twist itself would move down the material at less than the speed of light. The only way to get around this is to create a rod that is so thick that the flexion is minimalized. But that would require more material than there is in the universe. If you did have a material that didn't flex - which doesn't exist - it would take more energy than there is in the universe to twist it, assuming that you are trying to bypass the speed of light.





Read it again.

YES I FLIPPING KNOW THAT ELECTRICITY MOVES DOWN A WIRE AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT DIVIDED BY IMPEDENCE. THANK YOU.

Read
It
Again.

There is only ONE question here. If a circuit is 1 lightyear long, and it is closed on one end, how soon does the other end KNOW that it is closed?.

I must answer you question with a question. How long has the switch been closed for? A full year? If not the current will continue to flow until it reaches it's eqalization point. and vise versa, once the switch is opened, the amperage must equalize out over the entire "wire".

Here's a flipping diagram.

1 ----------------------------a whole lightyear----------------------------------------------- 2

The switch is at 1.

The battery is at 2.

The switch is closed. Now then, will the battery instantly START to send power down the line, or will it take a year? Why?.

Once the switch has closed (assuming the current has already equalized) or if it has not already equalized (you didn't give it a year to do so) it will flow in either case.

And to answer your sun question, the current cannot flow down to an open switch. Once the switch is open power will stop flowing.

Current can not flow, but it will have the full voltage potential from the power source. Batteries will lose enery the moment any circuit is closed. They (unless recharged) will never be at %100 capacity again.


A rebuttle for the first post. Information may not be matter nor energy however it takes both to learn your said information. Let's not also forget that information must be stored some how and some way, and that takes enery and matter to do so. It takes energy to store so it must take energy to send and process the information. Thereby making your entire quest for instant messaging across the vastness of Time and Space null and void. Now go find a telepath willing to stand on the Sun to disprove me.

[DevilMan]

oh oh oh.... I just had to come back....

Alright...

River = Path...

Dam = Switch

Water = Electricity

Dam closed means OPEN switch, means NO CURRENT....

Dam OPEN means CLOSED SWITCH means CURRENT flow...

Open the DAM and let the current flow.... The water is frozen!!! So how do you know if it's open or not???



DM

[Dark Side]

oh oh oh.... I just had to come back....

Alright...

River = Path...

Dam = Switch

Water = Electricity

Dam closed means OPEN switch, means NO CURRENT....

Dam OPEN means CLOSED SWITCH means CURRENT flow...

Open the DAM and let the current flow.... The water is frozen!!! So how do you know if it's open or not???



DM

[Spider-TW]

It's funny that this was posted, because I just read this:

http://www.livescience.com/strangene...ion-atoms.html

I think this is closer to a solution also. ^^^

I don't think the difference in availability to do work (energy) within a closed system (no energy transfer) constitutes a measurable property. If that were the case, I think entropy as a state property would be measurable instead of inferred.

Just like a water dam, a battery, or a tree that you cut a wedge out of the trunk, the energy was sitting there before, you just removed the impediment to its movement. There's nothing on the other end to tell you the energy is coming your way or how big it is (or isn't). There's no consequence or change if the energy is interrupted either, things are unchanged at the other end.

It reminds me of Schrodinger's cat in that you can have a circuit that is "open or closed". "Open or closed" is its condition and that's all you'll know.

Sympathetic quantum states is beyond common reason though and physical distance wasn't involved, last I read. Using that stuff as it appears now will either explain a lot of other things or just be some serious magic.

[Watcher]

Just spitting out some rambling thought as I was trying to sleep last night.


Temperature...


Now take it in terms of Kelvin and absolute zero. We have not gotten that far yet, but at absolute zero it is predicted that all motion in particles ceases and thus there is no energy being expelled, transferred, converted, etc.

Now as is my understanding, when energy is used waste energy is expelled in a form we can sense such as heat or light. Light requires much more energy than heat to output.

So I got to thinking, if we can excite atoms enough to expell light, which is the fastest travelling form of energy we presently know, if we didn't have to worry about the atoms themselves succoming to the process we could excite them enough to give off a higher order of energy.

So if we heated the correct atoms to well over several thousand degrees Kelvin could we get an energy faster than light?

Then it is just a matter of measuring and harnessing that energy to use as a method of communication.

Even if it wasn't instant, it would be faster than light.


I'm sure there has got to be a major flaw in that somewhere besides the adbsolute destruction of the atoms and the energy required to heat them to the point, but on paper (forum board ) does that seem solid?

[Dark Side]

I'm sure there has got to be a major flaw in that somewhere besides the adbsolute destruction of the atoms and the energy required to heat them to the point, but on paper (forum board ) does that seem solid?

Yes it does. Ask Hiroshima and Nagisaki about it.

[halB]

Just spitting out some rambling thought as I was trying to sleep last night.


Temperature...


Now take it in terms of Kelvin and absolute zero. We have not gotten that far yet, but at absolute zero it is predicted that all motion in particles ceases and thus there is no energy being expelled, transferred, converted, etc.

Now as is my understanding, when energy is used waste energy is expelled in a form we can sense such as heat or light. Light requires much more energy than heat to output.

So I got to thinking, if we can excite atoms enough to expell light, which is the fastest travelling form of energy we presently know, if we didn't have to worry about the atoms themselves succoming to the process we could excite them enough to give off a higher order of energy.

So if we heated the correct atoms to well over several thousand degrees Kelvin could we get an energy faster than light?

Then it is just a matter of measuring and harnessing that energy to use as a method of communication.

Even if it wasn't instant, it would be faster than light.


I'm sure there has got to be a major flaw in that somewhere besides the adbsolute destruction of the atoms and the energy required to heat them to the point, but on paper (forum board ) does that seem solid?

Atoms emit light thusly:

They are struck by incident photons, which are packets of energy, which bump the electrons in the outer shell up to the next higher shell. The electron can only maintain this for a certain amount of time (from nanoseconds to minutes) until it falls back into place. When it falls back into its original place, it releases energy, on the order of the difference between the energy levels.

This is how glow in the dark objects work. Their electrons are capable of staying in the next higher shell for several minutes/

[Watcher]

Ok, so that would mean impossible.

Right... any more ideas anyone?

[Hilltop Customs]

if this idea was true, you would be able to send faster than light communication on something like a digital ac powerline

there will still be a reaction time of the battery to the switch. Electrons will balance as the contacts of the switch come together, this will trigger a wave of electrons balancing down the line until they reach the battery and current can finally be measured.

Take the dam example that was mentioned earlier.......the problem is your thinking "I yell open the gate and the gate immediately opens letting measurable water out(current)".....now imagine the gate is opened by a set of dominoes a couple million miles long....you touch the first domino when you make your wire connection. Electrons have mass, so they will have to accelerate, decelerate, knock others out of orbits as they shift down the line, just like dominoes. Only after that reaction time will you see a drop in resistance or electron flow down the line.

The problem with the idea is, light is really fast. The "instantly" of a wire diagram is not really instant if you could see a photon fly by at the same time.