How close to criminal negligence are we

[manike]

We also know a guy in England died after getting shot in the head.

Woah Tom, that's not cool.

I believe you are aware of the details of the autopsy and know the death wasn't caused by playing paintball or the impacts. It could have happened at any time, apparently even if he had swung his head in reply to someone calling his name.

There was NO sign of a head injury caused by the paintball impacts.

Ask Bonich or Sosta if you don't have the details. He was a close friend of Jon Bon's.

[REDRT]

Ok wise guys. Yet another example. Speed limit interstate is 65/75 depending on the location. Most every car out there can do 100. Most sports cars can do 140+ There is many more killed or hurt every day driving than most likely in the lifetime of paintball. So by targeting paintball do you want to limit cars to? Your talking about criminal negligence. So to infer what you are saying is that the automarker are even bigger offenders.

[PBX Ronin 23]

When you kill someone with a speeding car that's going way above the speed limit, you are going to be subject to criminally negligent homocide.....I fail to see the substance of your argument.

[REDRT]

That's a cheap and pathetic excuse to avoid responsibility.

People want cheap infant formula. Does that mean that those is China who sold counterfeit formula that killed babies aren't responsible? After all they only "gave the product the consumers wanted".

And if you look past your Liberal hatred, even gun companies need to be put on some kind of leash if they won't regulate themselves.

Some cases may be overboard, but doesn't even a gun company cross the line when their advertising underlines that their grips don't keep fingerprints or if they sell unusually high numbers of weapons to questionable individuals near jurisdictions with restrictions (or close to a border)?

I've also had the "comapnies only give consumers what they want" argument in antoehr thread that got erased. While partially true, companies create the image and spend fortunes on advertising. Or do you believe the cigarette manufacturers crap that advertising is only for market share and not to create demand?

Liberal! My thinking on Firearms is everyone that legaly can pocess/own one should be able to have as many and what they want. If it is a machine gun so be it. No special lic for the guns. A backround check and your good to go. But if you were to use the said firearm in a crime like murder for example it would be express lane to the chair. Carry permits in states that have them there is less crime. Something liberals don't want you to know. Every state should adopt some form of carry. No I'm conservitive to radical maybe somewere in between.

[Lohman446]

Let me throw one more thing in here that should get people concerned.

Under strict interpurtation of Michigan law a paintball gun qualifies as a firearm - this is not enforced but it could certainly become an issue after negligence resulted in death. I will site this strict interpertation at some point in the next couple days, I ordered the publication it is in - but basically anything that fires any projectile over .177 caliper is a firearm - and the use of air to fire it is included in the definition.

How many problems does that add to the criminal defense?

[Lohman446]

Liberal! My thinking on Firearms is everyone that legaly can pocess/own one should be able to have as many and what they want. If it is a machine gun so be it. No special lic for the guns. A backround check and your good to go. But if you were to use the said firearm in a crime like murder for example it would be express lane to the chair. Carry permits in states that have them there is less crime. Something liberals don't want you to know. Every state should adopt some form of carry. No I'm conservitive to radical maybe somewere in between.

In the firearm example.. if I am shooting at a range, fail to turn the safety off and shoot someone in the "staging" area - I am likely going to jail for negligent homicide even if it was an accident. If there are people close to the targets I am likely going along with whoever set up the placement of those targets and spectators.

[REDRT]

When you kill someone with a speeding car that's going way above the speed limit, you are going to be subject to criminally negligent homocide.....I fail to see the substance of your argument.

Yep you are correct, but thoughs of you who want to be big brother and take it away before anything might happen is taking away growth. I say allow the industry to progress. The out come may suprise you. Everything is just speculation.

[Lohman446]

Yep you are correct, but thoughs of you who want to be big brother and take it away before anything might happen is taking away growth. I say allow the industry to progress. The out come may suprise you. Everything is just speculation.

I say self police the industry, before big brother steps in.

[frenchman309]

This is the most thought provoking thread I've read in a long time. I agree that it's not a matter of if, but when. Something serious is bound to happen, probably sooner than later. When it happens there will be no shortage of lawyers who would be more than willing to go after an individual or group of people in criminal and civil court, and the fact of the matter is they will probably win.

[REDRT]

In the firearm example.. if I am shooting at a range, fail to turn the safety off and shoot someone in the "staging" area - I am likely going to jail for negligent homicide even if it was an accident. If there are people close to the targets I am likely going along with whoever set up the placement of those targets and spectators.

You just had a defective safety in your example. I think you ment "Safety On", but you wouldn't go to jail unless they proved you had intent to shoot the individual. You however would most likely be subject to a wrongful death suit in civil court. You should have been more attentive in Hunter Safety. If you practiced the golden rules it would have never happened.
Treat every gun as if it were loaded, Always point the muzzle in a safe direction and Be sure of your target and beyond. "TAB". 4th rule Never climb a tree with a loaded firearm or an unquivered arrow. Lastly something I though in my safety classes. Never trust a safety, it is a machanical device and it can fail. Use it but don't rely on it.

[SlartyBartFast]

Something liberals don't want you to know.

There's plenty of things "conservatives" don't want you to know or can't grasp themselves. For example in your blind hatred and simplistic thinking of labelling me and dismissing my argument, you failed to comprehend even the simplist point made.

Turn on your brain and take the pathetic labelling somewhere else.

My point was if a company knowingly markets and sells to a criminal element are they not guilty of conspiracy in the crime? Or do you espose the idea that corporate citizens have no societal resposibility? The error in logic in that argument is that is corporations have no societal responsibility neither do citizens as legal persons both the corporation and a private citizen have much the same rights and responsibilities.

And while I don't want to debate gun control with you, I would say it is precisely because the gun industry refuses to regulate or control itself for the simple reason that they want to assume no liability and make the maximum of profit that outside forces are doing all that they can to limit and regulate them.

If a company willingly markets and sells to a criminal desire or fails to warn consumers of the inherent risks of their product, the company MUST be legislated from the outside. If the company must be controlled though legislation, why should the costs be borne by society so that the company can still make profit without changging their way of doing business? So, the most cost effective and justified response from society is to shut the industry down.

[Lohman446]

Firearm laws of Michigan - Statutes
8.3T The word "firearm", except as otherwise specifically defined in the statues, shall be cnstrued to include any weapon from whcih a dangerous projectile may be propelled using explosives, gas, or ar as a means of propulsion, except any smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling BB's not exceeding .177 calibre by means of spring, gas, or air.

I don't have time right this moment to look through the entire book - but I know there is no paintball excemption in it.

[SlartyBartFast]

unless they proved you had intent to shoot the individual.

Negligence does not require intent.

[REDRT]

I say self police the industry, before big brother steps in.

I see it as a rights issue. You want to step on an individuals rights to have something? Allow people to make up their minds if they want something or not. And allow them to use said something with respect. What do you think is more dangerious a paintball marker or say a .308 rifle? Here in Wisconsin at age 14 one can after successfully passing Hunter Ed carry that rifle in the woods without adult supervision. It is a huge responsabilty! It is my job to train are young people proper safety and to fail thoughs who aren't ready. Maybe instead of taking something away for everyone maybe there should be some sort of safety course set up to use these markers.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Yep you are correct, but thoughs of you who want to be big brother and take it away before anything might happen is taking away growth. I say allow the industry to progress. The out come may suprise you. Everything is just speculation.

If I understand your writing correctly, WE DON"T WANT to be a big brother. The governmental agencies will be that if we don't practice some self-policing. This industry governing body that has been proposed is for the purpose of self-policing so that we can still retain some control over the industry's fate.

Once the government steps in, they will either jam restrictive laws down our throats at the very least and prohibitive laws at the very worse.

Understand that acquiesence either by the industry or the players will only help in leading us down this path.