SEAR MOD: CHUFF less with your ULT, still SAFE for your BOLT

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  • QUINCYMASSGUY
    Registered User
    • Dec 2002
    • 914

    #61
    thx

    Thanks for the compliment on the sig idea, I think very few people look in Deep Blue and The Workshop so the idea hasn't expanded as much as it should. I frankly think it smokes the roller trigger idea and even the intellifeed (which with halo's you don't need) because:

    1.) It offers a level of customization greater than even the ULE line. I love the new look for the Mag and think AGD has done great with it, but performance customization is something the mag has not had besides the XValve and the E-mag. This concept lets you change the feel of the mag to suit your preference, something cocker owners and most E-owners love (different magnets in Mags for example?). Offering 4 different sears, each with a different configuration, would allow the user to choose their trigger style and people who haven't bought a mag for how the trigger feels may reconsider with this. PBall players want performance customizations, look how the cocker has survived the years offering them. This is AGD's chance. I think the sear is the one part that has never really evolved. The way they're selling custom to your design mags now, this would be the perfect addition. "Customize the pull style to your desire, no extra cost!"

    2.) I stressed it before: You can't reliably walk the trigger of a ULT so why does it need to be so light? It's great but not absolutely needed. I think sacrificing a little of the lightness in exchange for less pull and WAY less chuffing is something everyone will love if they tried it. I haven't heard any of you who have done this so far say you preferred how it used to be.

    3.) This one I am not sure on, but if the ULT can evolve even further to have a thinner pin (but greater support to compensate for the thin metal) then maybe it can get down to 10oz pull/30oz return which may cause more chuffing on its own and be a reason AGD didn't go that low, but if a .50 adjustment (which I refer to it now, meaning 50% more pull weight, 50% less pull distance) is done, it would make it 15oz/45oz as it is now and have a 50% shorter pull distance. If theoretical=actual (meaning it works) why the hell would AGD not do it? THAT would be a pull like an electro, which the ULT is not yet. I'd get a Mag again if I could do that.

    4.) It's inexpensive and can be fabricated off existing sears. It wouldn't involve major investment and is tourney legal, which the roller trigger wasn't and is simply "drop in and use." The roller involved drilling your trigger.

    These are my 4 selling points, those who have tried it by all means add to them. Anyone new reading this, voice your opinion, it is very welcome as long as it is not retarded flaming and such.
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    • Wrathchild
      Registered User
      • Aug 2003
      • 211

      #62
      What kind of metal is the sear made out of? My father is a Tig/Mig welder for Delphi Automotive. Since I have 4 extra sear sitting around my house, i am thinking about having his seal the hole that AGD drilled up and have him start drilling holes in .125" intervals from the very bottom of the sear almost to the top of the sear(.125 between each hole)...

      [3-7-04][[18:58] [Fred-O] Dizzo and I stripped yesterday... a lot of anno off some parts of mine that is...

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      • QUINCYMASSGUY
        Registered User
        • Dec 2002
        • 914

        #63
        disclaimer

        Let me put the disclaimer for AGD:

        Any modification to the sear would void your warranty with AGD, yadda yadda yadda.... so don't do it unless you're sure you're not going to do something that you'll regret.... now if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, it doesn't void a warranty. Or close to that because if you're careful in modding a sear or two and they don't have ill effects you're all set. Something like that.

        I believe it's a hardened steel which is treated so definitely be careful. Filing a sear breaks through this sealant and weakens it greatly, but a new hole being drilled shouldn't risk early wear.

        At a certain point you will find you're pushing straight towards the fulcrum and because of that it won't fire. I have an idea I included somewhere regarding the sear fulcrum being half as long but then going at a 90 degree angle pointed toward the back and then a little further. Same radius, but would allow movement. But your idea would be a great way to test it.
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        • redlaser666
          US ARMY SGT
          • Jul 2002
          • 841

          #64
          The sear is very hard!!! I could only drill it with a carbide pcboard drill bit at 20000rpm.
          My FeedBack

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          • QUINCYMASSGUY
            Registered User
            • Dec 2002
            • 914

            #65
            hard

            Yup, extremely hard. I took it to a metal shop here in Quincy, MA and they couldn't do a thing with it. They didn't have the right drills or bits. Of course the idiot did a "test" by filing it square in the middle and I basically stood there with an odd look on my face because I knew I might as well not stop him because he had already rendered it useless. That sear never made it back into my mag, I didn't want to risk it, but that goes to show the difference between people used to working on more crude machinery parts and more precision machinery parts like the sear is.

            One thing that may be required in all of this for smooth operation is a trigger with an angled back to push the rod in the same manner as the trigger pushes it now. The important part though is to keep the point that is pushing the sear the same radius from the pivot and keep an identical angle to how it now moves. It's easier to show than explain, check out my old, old thread on this topic to see what I mean, I did a ton of images in it. I really wish I knew of Destructive Customs before I traded my mag, I might have held onto it longer to have them fabricate a trigger and mod the sear. They probably would have done a hell of a job.

            And major props to Zyperion for making a strong effort to help further the knowledge of this project I started for the sole purpose of helping AGD. I always like to see promotion done in a positive, creative manner and he definitely did that. Also thanks to Kevmaster, not sure if he remembers but he's helped me out on alot of my little tinkering-fits that have produced ideas like these, he's a great guy and knows his stuff. And although I understand that by the rules the thread needed to be closed in PBTalk due to the rules, notice it took someone at AGD less than an hour to close Zyperion's thread when the pointless, bandwidth-soaking "I got this stuck in/on/to that" threads go for way longer? Interesting... I'm waiting to see if they choose to edit his #2 for the Predictions for 2004 although I doubt they will. And Gunga, yeah it's old because it's a good idea and gradually more people are interested in it. That's what's kept the thread alive.
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            • luke
              lukescustoms.com

              • Jan 2001
              • 8215

              #66
              Originally posted by Wrathchild
              What kind of metal is the sear made out of? My father is a Tig/Mig welder for Delphi Automotive. Since I have 4 extra sear sitting around my house, i am thinking about having his seal the hole that AGD drilled up and have him start drilling holes in .125" intervals from the very bottom of the sear almost to the top of the sear(.125 between each hole)...
              I don't think there is any reason to close-up the existing hole. Even though a T.I.G. doesn't produce much heat I wouldn't risk heating the thing up, if you do it will take some of the hardness out of it.

              Comment

              • QUINCYMASSGUY
                Registered User
                • Dec 2002
                • 914

                #67
                heat

                Definitely don't heat the whole thing, it could really lose it's structural stability.

                Hey guys, thank you all for the input, please continue but also get everyone you know to contribute, I want to do all I can to get this idea either pushed forward or get enough input to have a reason to stop. You guys are the thinkers around here, but we need to break the AO Zombie "If Tom didn't come up with it, it can't be good" mentality and have this be really stress-tested and troubleshot. I refuse to let it be a Superbolt I.
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                Comment

                • luke
                  lukescustoms.com

                  • Jan 2001
                  • 8215

                  #68
                  QMG,
                  What interval would you suggest drilling the holes at, and how many? (Centerline to Centerline)

                  Comment

                  • redlaser666
                    US ARMY SGT
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 841

                    #69
                    I would imagine having as many as posible and as closely spaced as practical so you can test out diferent posibilities. A good start is to drill 3 holes .1" apart from the original and each other. This would give you a .1", .2" and .3" spot to test out.

                    Mine is currently at .25" and i like it very much there, i will try a diferent spot next week.
                    My FeedBack

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                    • ZyperioN
                      Rabid Chipmunk
                      • Jan 2002
                      • 577

                      #70
                      To support this thread, copy and paste this into your sig.
                      YOU MUST DELETE ALL OF THE "*" FOR IT TO WORK CORRECTLY, THERE ARE 4 TOTAL!!!!

                      <*A HREF="http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1178858#post1178858"><*B> The next evolution of the Mag sear? Take a look and voice your opinion!<*/B><*/A>
                      Last edited by ZyperioN; 12-11-2003, 04:32 PM.

                      :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: Metal kids have more fun!! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

                      Atleast wipers are good for something........target practice.

                      -=Proud 04 Shocker Owner=-

                      ::::::Punishers Paintball::::::

                      Comment

                      • QUINCYMASSGUY
                        Registered User
                        • Dec 2002
                        • 914

                        #71
                        luke

                        Luke, great question and if I remember correctly, you are skilled at fabrication with items such as this so your production would be a great asset to this project.

                        I would suggest keeping the original hole and spacing them in intervals maybe a little less than the difference between the bottom of the sear fulcrum and the closest edge of the hole in the current sear. Structural integrity is the issue here. But I would also not recommend going too high as you will quickly find the motion will be directly aimed at the pivot and not function. I have been brainstorming this more and more, and the way I can picture this working is for the fulcrum to go down to 3/4 the way it now does then curve like an oddly shaped candy cane to the back, so the radius can be decreased but so it doesn't impede the functionality of the sear (needs a certain amount of push and direction too so it doesn't push at an odd angle.

                        I have been curious as to what a 90 degree change halfway down the fulcrum would yield, but for now I urge everyone to NOT try this part, as it would involve massive restructuring of the sear and not just a hole. This risks functionality problems and I definitely think more physics and knowledge of the fine details of the sear travel need to be addressed. However, as long as the arm connects to the rest of the sear at the same location and allows proper movement, it should be fine and will hopefully yield results in the near future. May even make the pull consistent from the very beginning to the very end, which would allow for a spring to be placed on the trigger front, applying pre-pressure so the pull is lighter and utilizing the 3X force pushback the retro provides to easily overcome the spring force and allow quick and effective reset. Imagine a 4oz pull. Chilling. We ran into a problem with the end of the forward momentum not being enough though and the trigger/sear not properly resetting. Back to the drawing board!

                        Thanks again for all your support, I'd love to see this become a reality and help AGD, a company I respect.
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                        • Big'n slo
                          Sponsored by...my paycheck
                          • Mar 2003
                          • 1909

                          #72
                          QUINCYMASSGUY,

                          I quickly sketched the sear with the changes you described, modifying the original with added holes.
                          Unfortunately, I don't have a sear to pull exact measurements from at work. So this sketch is from a pic of the sear in the AGD store.





                          And I think this is what you described for the modified sear.



                          In the first pic it looks like the further up you connect the sear rod the harder the angle between the rotational movement of the sear and the direction of force applied to the rod. Which, I assume would increase pull weight exponentially.

                          With the second design, the rotational movement and the direction of force are aligned, which should decrease the pull weight.

                          I'll pull dimensions of my sear later and will be able to tell what the actual pull distance's are depending on rod placement.

                          Comment

                          • QUINCYMASSGUY
                            Registered User
                            • Dec 2002
                            • 914

                            #73
                            bingo

                            Can't post much right now, but the second is exactly what I was talking about, good job. In the first, if you used the higher holes the pin would push right at the pivot which would not work.
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                            • 68 Mag
                              Registered User
                              • May 2001
                              • 262

                              #74
                              Hmm.

                              I've watched this for a while now, and I'm finally tossing my goggles in the ring.

                              Tommorrow, I'll try and swing by the machine shop and get some holes drilled. I'm thinking drill them in increments of .5 from .10 to perhaps .30. I.E. .10, .15, .20, .25, and .30. I'm not looking at my sear assembly right now, but isnt the trigger rod pivot a rivet- style connector? That might be a bit difficult to re-locate on a normal basis. For example, with an RT valve, set it to .30 for rec play and allow the trigger to bounce, but perhaps move the rod to .15 for tournaments, ensuring there isnt any bounce.

                              I've not done the math to claim that it will or wont bounce at those positions, that's just an example. perhaps just threading the trigger rod yoke for a small screw would do it.

                              I'll let you know how it turns out...

                              Comment

                              • Gunga
                                Former AGD Factory Tech
                                • May 2001
                                • 1497

                                #75
                                Originally posted by Big'n slo
                                I quickly sketched the sear with the changes you described, modifying the original with added holes.
                                Unfortunately, I don't have a sear to pull exact measurements from at work. So this sketch is from a pic of the sear in the AGD store.

                                And I think this is what you described for the modified sear.



                                With the second design, the rotational movement and the direction of force are aligned, which should decrease the pull weight.

                                I'll pull dimensions of my sear later and will be able to tell what the actual pull distance's are depending on rod placement.
                                Why not just use an E-Mag sear? The location of the vertical portion of the sear is pretty damn close to what you've got in your second drawing.

                                Of course, you'd have to try this out on an RT Pro, E-Mag, or X-Mag.

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