How close to criminal negligence are we

[hitech]

Firearm laws of Michigan - Statutes
8.3T The word "firearm", except as otherwise specifically defined in the statues, shall be cnstrued to include any weapon from whcih a dangerous projectile may be propelled using explosives, gas, or ar as a means of propulsion, except any smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling BB's not exceeding .177 calibre by means of spring, gas, or air.

I don't have time right this moment to look through the entire book - but I know there is no paintball excemption in it.

The bold text could exclude paintball.

[REDRT]

The bold text could exclude paintball.

Would have to be judged on what could be classed as a "Dangerous Projectile" would it not? The end of paintball will be not the sport itself, but the battle of the minds manipulating the law.

[SlartyBartFast]

The bold text could exclude paintball.

AH. But how much "danger" constitues "dangerous"?

Get hit in the eye by a paintball, it's plenty "dangerous".

But, sport does exist in a partial "bubble" outside the law. A participant can't file charges against another participant for a good number of acts that off the field of play would constitute assault for example. As long as the activity/action was within the accepted risks of the game and the game is itself legal.

[Spartan X]

REDRT, I'm sick and tired of you. The Goverment has the power and should have the power to Limit things. Our nation is free but people can not be "free" to heard others. A Riole in our government is to prevent hart to it's citizens, not leave them alone and generally beleive that every one is a good boy and knows what he/she is doing. We have rules for a reason!


Also, Tom. Could you link us to these standards? I have every bit of faith in you, but when I did a google and found the standards I did not find any standard Limiting what we are talking about.

[Investorguy]

In order to logically change an ASTM rule you would have to show substantial changes in the safety margins in order to open up previously voted on rules. If the velocity had gone down, the distances gotten larger or the rate of fire dropped, then it could be reasonable to change old rules. If whole head protection was mandated or padding required this would also help.

As you can see none of the above have changed and in fact most have gotten worse. I highly doubt any lawyer would advise you that its ok to relax the rules at this point.

AGD

I would disagree here; I think paintball has gotten much safer.

Goggles have been tested more and are much stronger.

Faster-shooting, lower-pressure guns have resulted in paint being more brittle. Less bruising.

Barrel plugs (and getting shot w/ them) is a thing of the past. Barrel condoms are the norm now and are far more safe.

More prevalent use of HPA means less spikes above 300 fps on hot days from CO2 users. HPA carries it's own dangers tho.

I'm sure there are more. Bottom line is that there are still dangers, but I don't think there are more dangers as a percent of how many players there are. Any increase in danger is purely from an increase in the # of players. The sport is overall much safer I would think.

[Lohman446]

The bold text could exclude paintball.

And, in the hypothetical someone is killed situation, does that not then prove the danger of the projectile? But I see your point, techincally nerf guns are a "firearm" if one reads it too closely. Understanding it does not concede the point - I would be hard pressed to define paintballs as fully safe - I mean, they do bruise and do "soft tissue damage". It is my beleif, in court you would have a hard time convincing a jury that they were not dangerous.

[hitech]

Guys, let's keep this civil. It's a good discussion and I for one would like it to stay that way.

The ASTM standards are not available on the internet. They make money selling the standards so they won't just post them on the internet.

[hitech]

We were warned early on by people outside our industry that using the ASTM to created certain types of industry regulations was not a good idea...

Actually, I like the ASTM standard for markers. I'm a proponent of making following it a law. And adding that the marker may not be user adjustable such as to make the marker out of compliance. But I can be an extremist...

[REDRT]

The sport is overall much safer I would think.

I would agree. There has been strides to make the game safer. Paintball is classified as an extreme sport. As with any extreme sport there is going to be injuries no matter what we do.
It seem to me the common goal is to improve safety over and above the current safety standards, because it is felt by some that there will be/or is gross misuse and potential deaths involved with current equipment used. I believe that is a just understanding of the arguement.
My thoughts where to find compromise in the current marker set ups, but still be able to shoot them with their enhanced features. To develope even better protective gear, and to make changes in the enforcement of the rules to make it clear on what they are and how to enforce them. Bottom line I feel there could be an agreement to suit almost everyone.
I find it difficult to understand why people will not compromise a little. Mostly in the marker issues. Full auto isn't bad. Look at how slow a spider is in full-auto. The ball cap is a good idea and about the only true way to govern the game. I like 20bps, others like 15bps and some like less or more. Pick a number! 15 seems reasonable because it is inbetween high end and nothing. I'm sorry that I'm unrelenting to keep all that we have obtained. Never would I force some one to give it up, but a resonable thing to do is curve it.

[REDRT]

Actually, I like the ASTM standard for markers. I'm a proponent of making following it a law. And adding that the marker may not be user adjustable such as to make the marker out of compliance. But I can be an extremist...

I guess! But all and all I like ya, because your opposite of me in thinking. :)

[Lohman446]

I would agree. There has been strides to make the game safer. Paintball is classified as an extreme sport. As with any extreme sport there is going to be injuries no matter what we do..

Won't help you in criminal court. In freestyle motocross if someone crashes and is hurt THEY crashed. In paintball if someone is killed it is not the victim who pulled the trigger - it was not the victim who (hypothetically) was in violation of known safety standards at the time of the incidient.

[rabidchihauhau]

I was going to address the issue of 'changing the ASTM standards' - but Tom has pretty much been there.

A couple of other points to make are:

the standards are based on analysis and testing, with some speculation as to consequences, as well as political wrangling.

Let me exaggerate a point for illustrative purposes: instead of rate of fire, folks have been turning up their velocities because they get better range. Events have stopped using chronos because of market pressure. Folks now want to change the ASTM standard to 450 fps to 'accomodate' the new reality.

Masks are going to have to change, but in the meantime, if the impact at 310 is beyond the abilities of lens and retention systems, no amount of changing is going to affect that physical reality.

Likewise, when people speed on the hiway, you don't change the speed limit upwards - you enforce the law more stringently.

ASTM standards affect everyone; changing a standard means back to the drawing board for a lot of manufacturers. How would you like to have 150K worth of inventory that is suddenly rendered unsellable because of an ASTM vote?

Once again, folks are on the right track with an issue (let's set the bar somewhere decent and then stick with it for a change) but they aren't taking into account the realities of the marketplace, politics and etc., in discussing it.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Steve, I wholeheartedly agree with your analogy. The one thing that perhaps is left unsaid is that the industry has complied with past ASTM finding that have led to industry-wide standards. But there certain areas that by virtue of their recent entry into the market and/or the political ramifications involving manufacturers, the ASTM's ability to quickly cope and react to these situations is rather limited.

The current point of contention is the advent and proliferation of the cheater boards and the subsequent buckling of a major tournament league under pressure from players and manufacturers. Should we have a better mechanism or a more proactive ASTM when it comes to addressing these types of issues.

[Lohman446]

I see the problem being now though that we need to change things and change them before something happens. Lets give a worst case scenario here - someone is killed by a marker that is not in compliance with ATSM standards - lets say it happens in MI and for why I think these results see this thread. Understand these are hypotheticals, I don't necessarily beleive that they are all going to happen - but you can see that with a mild stretch, they could

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=167495

I understand the downside here is, by close interpertation of those statutes even complying markers may have an issue. My argument is that if they marker complied with accepted standards you may get a DA to "understand". If you have grieving parents standing there with the industry accepted standards ASTM and pointing where you were in obvious violation of them... things get bad

A) Whoever pulls the trigger could go to jail for negligence partly for that non-complying marker and violation of Michigan firearms statutes for a year, two, or four, depending on what statute is invoked - and this is assuming more severe statutes are not considered. The "dueling" statute might well push this to ten years.

B) Whoever sold the "short barreled rifle" could go to jail for up to five years.

C) Whoever manufactured the "short barreled rifle" could go to jail for up to five years.

D) Whoever was involved with promoting the "duel" that lead to the death could go to jail for up to ten years.

These are based on a stretch of the statutes (but I don't think I have stretched that far), I understand that. What I am trying to highlight is that if we do not make this a regulated sport that follows are own regulations we may find ourselves facing serious charges. And these only came from a quick flip through of a single set of statutes, I am sure there are more. Grieving parents... a press showing where we as an industry and players did not even live up to our own standards. Someone could have a serious problem - I don't necessarily think the above will happen should a tragedy occur, but I surely think them possible.

[hitech]

BTW, ASTM standards state that a paintball marker's velocity must not exceed 300 fps when shipped, not 280 as some have stated. Note that it states when shipped. I guess that's because they did not write a standard for the actual game.

6.4.2 All paintball markers must shoot at a velocity under 91.44 m/s (300 ft/s) at the time of shipment at SATP.