Proposal for instant transmission of information, violating the speed of light.

[halB]

This is a proposal for an ansibel.

An ansibel is a fictional device that allows users to communicate instantly, regardless of distance. In other words, a message sent from here to the sun would be received instantly, while it would take light 8 minutes to reach it.

Proposal:

Information is not matter, nor energy. Therefore, it should be allowed to be transmitted instantly. First we must find a process that does not use the speed of light - in order to phrase that horribly.


What we will need:

1) A wire loop connecting both users over the distance. (I realize that it would be impractical and impossible to create a loop several light years long. This is only to show that the transmission of information can be completed instantly.)

2) A powerful battery.

3) A switch.

4) A voltmeter.



The battery shall be placed on the receiving end. Along with the voltmeter.

The switch shall be placed on the transmitting end.

The information shall be sent as 1's or 0's. (Open, or closed circuit.)


Hypothesis:

When the transmitter closes the circuit, the circuit is closed. The whole circuit knows it is closed. While the battery's charge will be transmitted down the wire at the speed of light, the voltmeter shall read the battery sending the charge down the line. When the circuit is closed on the transmitting end, the battery should instantly send it's charge down the line.

The battery's charge will take a long time to complete the circuit. HOWEVER, we are not interested in where the charge goes. We are only interested in whether or not the battery is losing power.


The long and short of it:

A battery should instantly transmit power along a circuit, the exact moment the circuit is closed - no matter how far away the switch closing the circuit is.





So, since this idea seems to violate the laws of physics, what is it I am missing? If this IS true, if this DOES happen as I describe it, then that means that ansibels are possible. Please debunk this for me.

MY IDEA.

[Dend78]

you just blew my mind, depending on loop length and where in the loop the switch is placed yeah it should work like that. longer loop though means more impedence so at the extents of the loop it will take the power that much longer to reach it. it would be fractional but it should still slow it down at least i think. hmm this is kinda like trying to bite your ear physics tells me no but everything else tells me yes

[DevilMan]

Because even electricity has a speed limit. One of the issues with the new age computers is that they can process faster than the cables can carry the data to and from. That's why some of the high end stuff went to Fiber cables within the machine...

but I'll let someone with more grey matter than I care to use to solve the rest of the riddle for ya...

DM

[jrod]

Teleportation

It's funny that this was posted, because I just read this:

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/090123-teleportation-atoms.html

[halB]

Because even electricity has a speed limit. One of the issues with the new age computers is that they can process faster than the cables can carry the data to and from. That's why some of the high end stuff went to Fiber cables within the machine...

but I'll let someone with more grey matter than I care to use to solve the rest of the riddle for ya...

DM

It is irrelevant whether the electricity actually goes from the receiver to the transmitter. The only thing that matters is when the battery starts to send the signal.

[DevilMan]

It is irrelevant whether the electricity actually goes from the receiver to the transmitter. The only thing that matters is when the battery starts to send the signal.

ummmm... and what form would that signal be in??

If not for the movement of electrons?

Sorry but I don't think it's possible for me to THINK of a number between 1 and 10 and you to GET that number just because I thought it.

but alas... I'll let someone else think it over... too deep for my interests right now...

Good luck with the solution!!!

DM

[DevilMan]

And I'm somewhat following your thought process... but keep in mind that the only way that a battery moves current at all is by having a circuit. Meaning that the charge that you are trying to keep track of losing can only be lost when there is a path from + to - .... Keep in mind also that batteries in general lose their charge over time. I follow that you are trying to simply say that if the battery is losing charge then it's a 1. If it's not it's a 0.

How fast the switch operates isn't the concern either but merely the transmission speed is what you are trying to find.

Well the battery is ONLY going to LOSE charge if it was a perfect world when the switch was CLOSED. That means that the ELECTRONS in the circuit have to MOVE along the path. That movement takes time.

Wow... so much for me not getting into this eh?

DM

[malJohann]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity

The Speed of electricity refers to the relatively slow movement of free electrons or ions through a conductor in the presence of an electric field, also known as drift velocity. It is often confused with the propagation speed of an electromagnetic wave. It is the electromagnetic wave that can carry information (data), not the movement of electrons.

Free electrons in a conductor vibrate randomly, but without the presence of an electric field there is no net velocity. When a DC voltage is applied the electrons will increase in speed proportional to the strength of the electric field. These speeds are on the order of millimeters per second. AC voltages cause no net movement; the electrons "wiggle" back and forth in response to the alternating electric field.

In contrast, electromagnetic wave propagation is much faster, and depends on the dielectric constant of the material. In a vacuum the wave travels at the speed of light and almost that fast in air. Propagation speed is affected by insulation, such that in an unshielded copper conductor it is about 96% of the speed of light, while in a typical coaxial cable it is about 66% of the speed of light.

If you want to use electromagnetic waves, then you're bound to the speed of light according to the article above. In this, the only other area for investigation is whether superconductors offer superluminal capabilities to electromagnetic waves. I read something the other day though, where scientists observed certain particles (the name of which I can't remember right now, could be quarks or leptons) disappearing in one place and reappearing in another. This should be more worthy of further investigation IMHO.

[halB]

Neither of you are understanding the process.

If you had read the first post, you would see the electricity doesn't even have to reach the transmitter. But you guys didn't.

Otherwise, I would just be describing a telegraph. Not really revolutionary is it?

Read it again. Come back to me when you understand it, or better yet, if you don't understand it, ask a question.

Ask yourself this. HOW does a circuit KNOW it is closed? And how fast does THAT information travel?

[Watcher]

Someone's been reading too much Ender's Game, I think


The way I see it, if you had a rod suspended so that it rotated freely and extended the rod lightyears or whatever, given that there was no flex in the rod as soon as someone on one end twisted it the other end would twist as well.

All you need then is to denote whether a clockwise or counter-clockwise rotation is a 1 or 0, reflect it for the other end, translate the binary, and boom you have a message.

It was instantly transferred, but decifer time and such would come into play.

But, if you could have super strong and quick servos on either end, and giant processors to monitor rotation cycles then messages could be coded, sent, and decoded within seconds regardless of distance.

The idea of having several lightyear long rods is rediculous, though. Who would maintain them? What if something hit them? And the revolution and rotation of planets and stars would make the ansibles have to be suspended far from any solar systems thus making the trip to get to them (even at lightspeed) several hours at best so sending the message by radio might just be faster


The battery idea seems like it would work, but how do you know if you are getting a 0 or just an idle signal? And there are too many factors that can effect the voltage and such as well...

I love thinking about this kind of stuff, its all so eery (sp?).

[DevilMan]

Neither of you are understanding the process.

If you had read the first post, you would see the electricity doesn't even have to reach the transmitter. But you guys didn't.

Otherwise, I would just be describing a telegraph. Not really revolutionary is it?

Read it again. Come back to me when you understand it, or better yet, if you don't understand it, ask a question.

Ask yourself this. HOW does a circuit KNOW it is closed? And how fast does THAT information travel?

ummmmm... alright I concede... I did read and read and read again..... And maybe you should try a bit of your own advice.

Find out how a circuit works. The open & closed part is from the movement of electrons from positive to negative...

Anyway... you have fun with it... Tell Will I said Hi!!!

Dm

[halB]

Someone's been reading too much Ender's Game, I think


The way I see it, if you had a rod suspended so that it rotated freely and extended the rod lightyears or whatever, given that there was no flex in the rod as soon as someone on one end twisted it the other end would twist as well.

All you need then is to denote whether a clockwise or counter-clockwise rotation is a 1 or 0, reflect it for the other end, translate the binary, and boom you have a message.

It was instantly transferred, but decifer time and such would come into play.

But, if you could have super strong and quick servos on either end, and giant processors to monitor rotation cycles then messages could be coded, sent, and decoded within seconds regardless of distance.

The idea of having several lightyear long rods is rediculous, though. Who would maintain them? What if something hit them? And the revolution and rotation of planets and stars would make the ansibles have to be suspended far from any solar systems thus making the trip to get to them (even at lightspeed) several hours at best so sending the message by radio might just be faster


The battery idea seems like it would work, but how do you know if you are getting a 0 or just an idle signal? And there are too many factors that can effect the voltage and such as well...

I love thinking about this kind of stuff, its all so eery (sp?).

Marvelous!!! Another idea for an ansible!!!

The fact is, if even one of these ideas is true, feasible or not, that means a feasible idea MUST exist. I grant mine is not feasible. I'm just looking to see if it's true.

[customxphoto]

Enders Game

Ftw

[malJohann]

Ask yourself this. HOW does a circuit KNOW it is closed? And how fast does THAT information travel?

Water. River. Dam. The water is the electricity, the river is the wire, the dam is the switch. Just because the water has pressure doesn't mean it can go anywhere, until the dam's gates are opened and the water allowed to pass.

A more relevant question would be when the wire was connected to the battery, how long did the current of electricity take to reach the open switch? IMHO probably at a percentage of the speed of light.

Ask yourself this. If you have a wire stretching all the way from the earth to the sun (and it doesn't melt, humour me), would it take the current of electricity round about 8 minutes to get to an open switch and then stop?

[EDIT] An open switch being a switch that doesn't conduct electricity. You close a switch to allow the current to pass. [/EDIT]

[halB]

First of all I would like to address Watcher. I thought about your idea all night long, and unfortunately, it is impossible. All materials flex. So when one end was twisted, the twist itself would move down the material at less than the speed of light. The only way to get around this is to create a rod that is so thick that the flexion is minimalized. But that would require more material than there is in the universe. If you did have a material that didn't flex - which doesn't exist - it would take more energy than there is in the universe to twist it, assuming that you are trying to bypass the speed of light.

Water. River. Dam. The water is the electricity, the river is the wire, the dam is the switch. Just because the water has pressure doesn't mean it can go anywhere, until the dam's gates are opened and the water allowed to pass.

A more relevant question would be when the wire was connected to the battery, how long did the current of electricity take to reach the open switch? IMHO probably at a percentage of the speed of light.

Ask yourself this. If you have a wire stretching all the way from the earth to the sun (and it doesn't melt, humour me), would it take the current of electricity round about 8 minutes to get to an open switch and then stop?

[EDIT] An open switch being a switch that doesn't conduct electricity. You close a switch to allow the current to pass. [/EDIT]

Read it again.

YES I FLIPPING KNOW THAT ELECTRICITY MOVES DOWN A WIRE AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT DIVIDED BY IMPEDENCE. THANK YOU.

Read
It
Again.









There is only ONE question here. If a circuit is 1 lightyear long, and it is closed on one end, how soon does the other end KNOW that it is closed?


Here's a flipping diagram.

1 ----------------------------a whole lightyear----------------------------------------------- 2

The switch is at 1.

The battery is at 2.

The switch is closed. Now then, will the battery instantly START to send power down the line, or will it take a year? Why?


And to answer your sun question, the current cannot flow down to an open switch. Once the switch is open power will stop flowing.