03 shocker :(

[Quickling]

Well I officaly HATE SP now! Why you may ask? Well my field had a nice red 03 that I got to handle last night and frankly.. I REALLY liked the gun (hated the 88cu that they were selling attached to the gun but thats fixable).

now I cant even buy one cause I dont like what SP is doing. So heres this cool gun, the only gun I have ever been able to walk, and I can't even buy it. poo :(

[FalconGuy016]

I like it too. There is no denying they have good stuff... thats the only way they are able to be in the position they are in

[mxrider250]

is it going to come out anytime soon?

[magman007]

ok, there si denying they have good stuff, the 03 is cheeply made...



but you know, if you want something ,try out a trix, or a viking, if you cant walk them, then you sir, have a problem

[No sKiLLz]

Why don't you get a Matrix? Easy to walk, same bolt (but Gen-E made it first) less kick and no problems with guilt. The new DYE LCD is $1050 with Eye, sticky grips, bolt kit, inline and LPR, and all that goodness.

[jayloo]

I had the opportunity to shoot one and it was smooth ... very little kick and ultra simple to walk.

I heard that they are only selling the 03 shocker with the max flow cuz of some problems SP was having with it. I was told from a very reliable resource to give SP 6 months to work out the rest of their bugs.

[thei3ug]

yah they had a problem all right.

a problem with inventory.

If they're gunna release the new inlines and new HPA systems, they need to release their current stock first.

[WARPED1]

Suck it up and buy it. If this alleged lawsuit goes through, SP will be getting your money anyway, unless you buy an RT or non electro cocker.

[pito189]

Where are some pictures of the Dye Matrix, or is still just talk?

[GT]

I was considering it until I saw the eff numbers.

I think you can find some places w/ the ultimate package for a little under 1k

[Marek]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Suck it up and buy it. If this alleged lawsuit goes through, SP will be getting your money anyway, unless you buy an RT or non electro cocker.

Great philosphy. :rolleyes: There is no "alleged" lawsuit, there is a lawsuit. Against ICD, but they can't publish or post any of the proceedings because it is still in court. The first sentence says a lot about your character.

Quickling, I am in the same boat. I loved my Classic Timmy, and wanted to get an Empire or 2k4 after I found a better paying job, but when I found out that NPS sold out to SP with their deal, I just didn't want to own it anymore. Sold it, and trading my Halo soon also.

There are great products out there with great companies, and great products with shady companies. I can make due with a company like AGD and get there stuff. And, I can be proud of the equipment that I own. Might mean nothing to you, but means a lot to me.

[GatoLoco]

i dont really thing nps "sold out"

[Marek]

Originally posted by GatoLoco
i dont really thing nps "sold out"

On a business sense yes, they did a smart move. Same could be said to SP for trying to corner the market. I do think that they sold out, but I do not want to clutter this thread with more SP nonsense.

If your really curious as to why I think they sold out, then PM me.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz
Why don't you get a Matrix? Easy to walk, same bolt (but Gen-E made it first) less kick and no problems with guilt. The new DYE LCD is $1050 with Eye, sticky grips, bolt kit, inline and LPR, and all that goodness.
Agreed

[GT]

Originally posted by Marek

There is no "alleged" lawsuit, there is a lawsuit. Against ICD, but they can't publish or post any of the proceedings because it is still in court.

More internet rumor mill. One of the such rumors I heard was the lawsuit is over a yet unseen new ICD gun. I am a "proof" kinda guy. I am not going to hurl raw emtions into the SP debate becuase I have yet to see the results of the lawsuit. Even if everything that folks have said is true you will never see me comparing sp to Hitler and his fun group.

I really want to see some court documents or even the broad patent that SP has been given.

jb

[GT]

Originally posted by Marek

There are great products out there with great companies, and great products with shady companies. I can make due with a company like AGD and get there stuff. And, I can be proud of the equipment that I own. Might mean nothing to you, but means a lot to me.

I think that is kinda imature as well as a little nieve.

Have you ever shopped at wall mart?

Ever buy Nike shoes?

Trust me the companies you buy from everday do much more evil stuff than little ol' SP.

jb

[Marek]

Originally posted by gtrsi
More internet rumor mill. One of the such rumors I heard was the lawsuit is over a yet unseen new ICD gun. I am a "proof" kinda guy. I am not going to hurl raw emtions into the SP debate becuase I have yet to see the results of the lawsuit. Even if everything that folks have said is true you will never see me comparing sp to Hitler and his fun group.

I really want to see some court documents or even the broad patent that SP has been given.

jb

Like I said earlier, I don't want to turn this thread into another SP battle. You have your opinions, I have mine. If you feel like discussing this more, lets move it to PMs.

[Marek]

Originally posted by gtrsi


I think that is kinda imature as well as a little nieve.

Have you ever shopped at wall mart?

Ever buy Nike shoes?

Trust me the companies you buy from everday do much more evil stuff than little ol' SP.

jb

How is this, what I believe, immature? I believe that I can find good products from other companies other than SP. If I want a gun, I can buy an X-Mag, if I want a tank a Flatline. If I want a barrel system, then I can get an Evil or CP barrel kit.

Ever buy Nikes? Wal-Mart? Yes, I have. Do I revolve a large part of my life around buying shoes? Or shopping for food? No, I don't. It is something that I do not take a valid interest in. Is that wrong, well maybe, but that is the truth.

Paintball is a large part of my life, as a hobby. I enjoy the sport and follow it with enjoyment. I am not saying that every single unethical practice that goes on in the business world is going to affect my judgement on which products to buy or not. It does for paintball.

It seems that you are just picking away at my posts and that is your right. You don't understand or agree with my point, and that is fine. It is not your money that I am spending or not, and that will not change. That is the beauty of this country; the freedom to buy from whom we want. I will not buy from SP or NPS and that is my right and decision. I am not criticizing or judging ppl that do buy from SP, so why are you judging me if I refuse to?

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by gtrsi


More internet rumor mill. One of the such rumors I heard was the lawsuit is over a yet unseen new ICD gun. I am a "proof" kinda guy. I am not going to hurl raw emtions into the SP debate becuase I have yet to see the results of the lawsuit. Even if everything that folks have said is true you will never see me comparing sp to Hitler and his fun group.

I really want to see some court documents or even the broad patent that SP has been given.

jb What he said. When and if it goes into public record then I'll say something. In my 13 years of playing, I've never seen such a lynch mob attitude that most(not all) of you guys put out there.

[GT]

Originally posted by Marek

I am not criticizing or judging ppl that do buy from SP, so why are you judging me if I refuse to?

Like you said you can buy whatever you want. I just dont understand why you would feel the need to boycott a company simply because they enforce "thier" patent?

Again what SP does is nothing compared to what buisnesses do EVERYDAY. Do I think it is nieve, you bet. DO I think you are some moron kid, no. However I believe that changing your lifestyle on a precieved action is an error. Remember SP has yet to flex its muscle and actually changed anything. I may, like you, change my ways someday, however I will not do so blindly. This is not a sistuation, in my view, that can be hanlded in a proactive manner.


(I dont really want to leave this to PMs because I feel we BOTH have important convections that need to be shared witht the folks on AO)

jb

[manike]

Originally posted by gtrsi
I really want to see some court documents or even the broad patent that SP has been given.

I'm suprised you haven't.

Both sets of information are freely available on the net from their prospective sources.

If you'd read the threads about SP you would have seen links that directed you to this stuff.

Their patents are very easy to find, the court docs a little harder but not much.

There is a lot of rumour and BS, yes, but some of the hard facts are difficult to ignore without burying your head in the sand. If you want proof you can find it for yourself from independent sources.

[FooTemps]

Yes, there is a lot of rumor. BUT, this is going on. It may be out of proportion with a few.. okay, maybe a lot of things, but it's going on.

Anyway, if you want a press release, you'll have to wait until SP corners the market before anyone says anything. Then you'll complain when it's too late.

[WARPED1]

Why would I complain? I own a Shocker, soon an 03 Shocker too.
manike, can you post a link maybe? That would be cool, only because I have no clue where to look. You can pm it if you'd rather.:)

[jinxed]

Originally posted by manike


There is a lot of rumour and BS, yes, but some of the hard facts are difficult to ignore without burying your head in the sand.

The "latest" rumor is that the lawsuit was moved to October, then postponed indefinetly because of some 'new' information that ICD had, possibly destroying SmartParts case....

But... still waiting for actual information.

nick

[manike]

Originally posted by WARPED1
manike, can you post a link maybe? That would be cool, only because I have no clue where to look. You can pm it if you'd rather.:)

So I should do a search for the links rather than the people that haven't followed the threads do a search for the links? Most if not all the information was posted up in the thread here on AO. Or it was linked in that thread to the correct pages. You can find it yourselves. People posting they don't know what is going on or what is fact? Only because they haven't been paying attention already.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. If you didn't read them the first time and follow what was going on, why would you do it the second time? If you want to know what is going on and see all the information, fact and rumour, go read the SP thread. Dig out the facts there, look at the independent sources, and make your mind up. Just don't try to pretend the facts and indepenent sources aren't available.

If you want to see the patents go to www.uspto.gov and search for them. I'm tired of showing people what is going on and them not listening and pretending it hasn't/isn't happening.

Jinxed I know the case was postponed until October, but I don't know of it having been postponed indefinitely as a fact. Could be though... I'm trying to get independent corroboration of that.

[Marek]

I just don't want the thread to be closed because of the SP debate. Too many casualties already.

There are practices that I find disgusting in the business world. Sony hiring cheap labor in Mexico for a $1 an hour because they do not want to pay $6 on the US side. Hiring children, etc. It's bad, and I don't agree with it, seeing it first hand where I live. That is life, and I understand and see it. To say that I am naive or uninformed is incorrect.

And no, I am not comparing Sp with Nazis or Hitler or anything to that extent. I see that as childish and pointless. But from the information that I've seen here and other forums, I have made my decision. Doc Nickel had an excellent post here on AO in another thread about what SP is doing and has done and that to me was enough to form my decision. I guess I have the popular idea, but that is not to say that I am some ill informed child. My view is that they are trying to change the sport in their favor, and of course there will be ppl that don't believe that, for whatever reason. Be it that it's not enough info, or that you like SP, or other reasons.

I don't see the positive aspect of this at all, be it as the return of mechs and that electros will be long gone. I see it as a way to stop the evolution that the sport is taking. Be it a good step forward, or a step in the wrong direction, it will probably hurt the sport nonetheless.

That is why I do not agree with what NPS did. They are just strenghting the case of SP by acknowledging the patent. I dont agree with the patent's validility, but that is not for me to decide. It seems that the only way you will believe this is if the court documents are released or there is an announcement from the companies. But as stated earlier, they cannot divulge anything due to court hearings.

So, we are at a standstill. You think its bogus, I don't. I think there is enough info for this, and you don't. You may or may not buy there stuff, and I won't. Like you said, you might change your ways later on, I changed my mind now. We may not agree with our ideas, but I do believe that we are on the same page. Only time will tell what will happen, and hopefully it will be something that is good for the sport.

[Quickling]

ok..... so back to the shocker. One thing I did like about it was that my eyes and muscles said two completly different things.

My eyes told me i was holding a gun... but the muscles thought my hands were empty. Its friggin light. Like unbelivebly light.

I did hate the feel of the tank and the setup.. it made the gun WAY too close to my face and I dont like that wrist angle. But that could be soved with a slight mirco drop just reversed.

To respond to the matrix comment. No I havent shot one, but I honestly think they are one of the most ugly guns I have EVER seen. I would almost take an alien over one 9at least the alien has some odd charm to it).

The efficency of the 03 is prolly gonna be that of a non propaintball trix, since the whole valve/bolt seems very much like a matrix.

Now onto the foregrip.. WIERD! That was really odd holding onto.. I dont like it one bit. This is also the reason I think they come with max-flos. SP wanted a certain look to the 03 and the foregrip is obviosuly stylised to be part of the look. They did not wish to ruin these lines by adding a large reg. Hence the maxie.

Same thing if you wanted to run a fancy forgrip on a cocker.. Ya simply gotta put that reg somewhere. So I bet if you found a way to mount a vertical reg in place of that grip you could take off the maxie.

Also I dont like the price tag. If it were 700 or so I would buy the gun, but paying 1100 I can think of a lot of stuff I would rather have.

Plus I feel neverous buying ANY product, I dont care if its AGD, ICD, or WGP.. I dont want to buy any new to the market gun that is completely new to the line. I simply want to wait at least a couple months to find out any bugs... to get real user reviews and to see if there are any short comings that I wont be able to stand.

[UltimatePaintballer]

buy it, you like it that much. i like some smart parts stuff just not the people that work there that are deciding this.

[Fatjon]

well our team is sopposed to be getting sponsored (dont know the guy but free money). HE says he is ordering our guns tommorow. I asked for a 2k3 shocker with the eye so ill find out how it shoots.

[FalconGuy016]

Originally posted by Marek


Like I said earlier, I don't want to turn this thread into another SP battle. You have your opinions, I have mine. If you feel like discussing this more, lets move it to PMs.

Doesnt look like that worked :(

[Steelrat]

Well, here is my take on the 03 shocker...

I went into a local store and saw it on the rack. I asked the owner about it. He replied that it was a "piece of [fecal matter]." Said it was cheaply made, with brass screws that broke the first time he took it apart. He also said it was a major gas hog.

When you walk into a paintball store, which have low margins to begin with, and the owner, who already fronted the money for the gun on the wall, tells you its a piece of crap, that just can't be good.

[Dave_Z]

I own an 03 Shocker and I must say that it is a very nice gun. Extremely light and very easy to maintain.

I don't get where people are getting the "cheaply made" comments from. My shocker is rock solid. There is nothing that gives me the impression of cheap. It may be light but there is no feeling of anything about to fall apart. All the screws are stainless steel. The trigger is awesome, very, very easy too walk and feels good.

The bolt is nothing like the matrtix bolt and is only similar because of the spool valve. The matrix is far more complicated and much more a pain too take apart than the new shocker. Although it may seem impossible, the new shocker has even less kick than a matrix.

The only problem that I have with the new shocker is efficiency and even that won't be a problem unless you play back in a ten-man. I am sure I could get 6 or 7 pods from a 4500/68 fill so it is enough for me in almost all situations.

[Quickling]

and and my wanting to take off the maxie and use a reg isnt that big of a deal apparently, as there is a black 03 on ebay with a vertical reg

[JT2002]

If yoru looking for a fast easy to shoot gun, try out a speed. i have one and the guns really rip. i also have one for sale ;) :D its weird cuz i used to be really AGD Mag ho, and im still in some denial, because while i look at teh gun and go "Man this thing is sweet", the back of my brain is thinking of all the hatred over Angels. :rolleyes: :D . but now, im selling to go get an angel 4. these guns reall rock, NEVER chop, sensi is a godsend, and the halo only makes things better. (if yoru interested in a speed contact me

[Marek]

Originally posted by FalconGuy016


Doesnt look like that worked :(


(I dont really want to leave this to PMs because I feel we BOTH have important convections that need to be shared witht the folks on AO) jb

I tried.

[spydervenom]

i dont think i could play w/ a gun that has such bad efficiency. i'd probably buy a second tank just so i could get a good amount of playing in before needing to fill my tank.

and 6-7 pods is not enough for a good amount of playing.

[Lohman446]

Here is my thoughts on the 03 shocker - keep in mind I play front so efficiency, well I frankly do not care.

The thing is tiny - like my mag in size. The thing is QUICK - I do not like electro guns anyways (still shooting a mechanical mag) but this gun was just awesome when I shot it

[Quickling]

The thing is tiny - like my mag in size. The thing is QUICK - I do not like electro guns anyways (still shooting a mechanical mag) but this gun was just awesome when I shot it

sorta my thoughts too except I shoot a single trigger slider on my cocker.

[jinxed]

Originally posted by Dave_Z

The bolt is nothing like the matrtix bolt....

This is very true.
I have seen the bolts, and have confirmed they are completely different colors. Everything is pretty much the same though.

Just because they are both functionally the same doesnt mean they perform the same.

The Stingray and 98C are functionally identical, yet 99.9% of us would choose the 98 over the Stingray.

(-Nick

[mxracer33x]

I for one love my new shocker. Ive taken it apart several times and havent broken anything. It is very tightly packed, so it would be possible to damage the wiring harnes or the on off switch. It does use alot of air, but not enough to hinder normal tourney play. Since ive gotten it I havent shot my Xmag in a game. Hopefully I can get some time and do a complete Xmag-03 Shocker review comparison. this will include video and pics.

But quite honestly, the thing rips. :D

[Natrix]

Well me and Dave_Z have the benefit of a 10 man team with Speeds, Xmags, Matrixs, and 03 shockers.

These shockers friggin rip, and the gas efficiency is fine unless you have a paint sponsorship and, as dave said, play back in a 10 man. The gas efficiency is basically the same as a matrix. If you don't want to fill up after shooting 6 pods and a hopper (roughly half a case), then you need to go play airsoft, because how often are you gonna shoot half a case in a game? (not including back guys)

The bolt is twice the size of an angel bolt, and half the weight. and slides over the top of a long tube....don't know of any matrixes that do that.

The weight of an new shocker with the tank and HALO is about the same as an XMAG without anything on it.

I'll just come out and say this is the best gun for ALL front players. It's so small, fast, and light it meets all the necessary critera.

Boycotting SP isn't gonna do anything except make them raise the prices and make it harder to buy a new shocker for 750, stop this madness!

[nastymag]

wait are you telling me that a 03 shocker ... with tank and Halo weighs less the 3 pounds ... wow .... i find that somewhat hard to believe....

[mxracer33x]

my Xmag weighs in at 8.2 lbs with halo (no paint) and 68/4500 maxflo (no air), 12" CP Barrel

my 03 shocker weighs in at 7.2 lbs with halo (no paint) and 68/4500 maxflo (no air), 14" All American Barrel


A full pound lighter, not to shabby.

[Marek]

Originally posted by mxracer33x
my Xmag weighs in at 8.2 lbs with halo (no paint) and 68/4500 maxflo (no air), 12" CP Barrel

my 03 shocker weighs in at 7.2 lbs with halo (no paint) and 68/4500 maxflo (no air), 14" All American Barrel


A full pound lighter, not to shabby.

A full pound lighter cuz of the CP barrel. :D ;)

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by Dave_Z

The bolt is nothing like the matrtix bolt and is only similar because of the spool valve. The matrix is far more complicated and much more a pain too take apart than the new shocker.

***How many times have I posted this? And Shocker people are still in denial.***
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=962311
http://aardvarkdirect.com/store/shop_image/product/1cc6702c184a8943aabbc865194fa863.jpg
Yes, guys, it's more than just a river in Egypt.

Although it may seem impossible, the new shocker has even less kick than a matrix.

***Let's see. Matrix is heavier, longer, and has an LPR, with the same spool valve, yet it kicks more than a lighter, shorter marker with NO LPR and a spool valve....must be the gnomes.***

The only problem that I have with the new shocker is efficiency and even that won't be a problem unless you play back in a ten-man. I am sure I could get 6 or 7 pods from a 4500/68 fill so it is enough for me in almost all situations.

Here's the final of the DYE Matrix. Everyone says it's dissapointing, but how much do you spend on a regular Matrix LCD without eyes or the DYE regs?
http://www.shop4paintball.com/isroot/Stores/Shop4Paintball/SiteImages/01DYEMATRIX_500.jpg
When you think about it, a normal LCD costs almost a thousand anyways. I think 50 bucks more is good for an eye and some nice regs. There is a tiny bit of milling, notice on the grip frame there is a tear drop groove and the chunk under the air channels has been milled back a few inches.

[No sKiLLz]

Fudge. The hosting website is down.:(

Check this out. The first 5 seconds of the new DyeMatrix website...
http://www.dyematrix.com/

[Dave_Z]

Well lets think about it for a second. The new shocker bolt is extremely light. Probably at least half to 2/3 lighter than the matrix bolt. So the amount of kinetic energy that the bolt has when cycling is considerably less, therefore causing less kick. Even with a paintball there will be less kick because they are both being shot out of the barrel at the same speed.

Even if you doubt my explanation, know that the only reason I say it has less kick is because I shot the two guns right after one another and noticed more kick than the shocker. Until you shoot both back to back don't say that I am wrong. Because then it will be you that is in denial.

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by Dave_Z
Well lets think about it for a second. The new shocker bolt is extremely light. Probably at least half to 2/3 lighter than the matrix bolt. So the amount of kinetic energy that the bolt has when cycling is considerably less, therefore causing less kick. Even with a paintball there will be less kick because they are both being shot out of the barrel at the same speed.

Even if you doubt my explanation, know that the only reason I say it has less kick is because I shot the two guns right after one another and noticed more kick than the shocker. Until you shoot both back to back don't say that I am wrong. Because then it will be you that is in denial.

So by that logic, why doesn't an Intimidator kick less than a Matrix? Or a DYE Cocker? Or any marker that comes with a delrin bolt? That Matrix you shot was improperly tuned, so to say the '03 Shocker kicks less than a Matrix is absolutely false. To say the '03 Shocker kicks less than the Matrix YOU shot would be a more accurate statement. I'm tired of people making false generalized statements about good markers because they don't have a clue how they work. I gave you three reasons why the Matrix kicks less, and you come back with one. So you think having a delrin negates all the other factors?

And your assumption about being the same with paint isn't true either. That's when the weight and length of the marker become a bigger factor with stabililty and balance (Matrix).

If you think the bolts greater inertia is the decisive factor in kick, Evolve makes a delrin for the Matrix. Making your final output pressure below 80 PSI is a much more decisive factor, and that is something you can't do without an LPR (i.e. no dice for the Shocker). Not to mention, because the Shocker cannot accommodate an LPR, it will never be as quiet, or as soft on paint as a (properly tuned) Matrix. But don't let me spoil your fun.:D

[nastymag]

wait did some one say that the o3's got a 6-7 pods and hopper off a 68/45 ?


i got 6 pods and a rev on 68/45 on my old V sport shocker

i thought they where suppose to fix the whole air consumption thing ....

[Dave_Z]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz


So by that logic, why doesn't an Intimidator kick less than a Matrix? Or a DYE Cocker? Or any marker that comes with a delrin bolt? That Matrix you shot was improperly tuned, so to say the '03 Shocker kicks less than a Matrix is absolutely false. To say the '03 Shocker kicks less than the Matrix YOU shot would be a more accurate statement. I'm tired of people making false generalized statements about good markers because they don't have a clue how they work. I gave you three reasons why the Matrix kicks less, and you come back with one. So you think having a delrin negates all the other factors?


Well since you know so much about how paintball guns work, then you know that the matrix and shocker have no ram/springs like most other paintball guns. These items obviously are connected to the bolt and carry inertia with them since they move at the same speed as the bolt. Therefore causing more kick than a matrix or shocker since the whole moving assembly weighs considerably more than a matrix or shocker bolt. You have to look at the whole assembly to consider how much recoil it will create.

Now with the martrix and shocker the bolt is the only moving part and the only factors in kick is how much the bolts weigh and how fast they move. Also the paintball will add kick but since they both shoot paint we can ignore it since the kick caused by the paint should be equal at the smae velocity. I don't know how fast each bolt moves but since they fire at about the same bps then I bet the speed of the bolt is pretty close. So if the shocker bolt is lighter than the matrix bolt then it will cause less kick.

Having a low cycling pressure bolt means nothing in terms of kick since the bolt must retain the same speed or else it will shoot slower and who would want that? I agree that a matrix with a well-tuned trinity will be easier on paint than the shocker.

It may be that the matrix I shot was "out of tune" but I highly doubt it since the trinity was set right. I will try to find some more matrixes around and see who is right. As for the evolve bolt kit, then I would bet you would not be able to tell the difference in kick at all. It looks like a very nice bolt kit and honestly I don't understand why there hasn't been a delrin bolt for the matrix sooner.

[demonguy8]

I managed to get my grubby paws on a 2k3 shocker this past week while at work (pbgear) and must say while i HAVENOT had a chance to test shoot it yet, this is one of the most comfortable, SMALLLEST (pictures dont do its small sizedness justice), and lightest markers Ive ever held..
Im reminded of the first time I ever picked up an Angel LCD and just knew the thing felt awsome.

Now assuming I like its consistancy and how much/little kick its got when I get a chance to shoot one, my next marker choice is gonna be set in stone..

PS: pbgear has at least 3 ultimate packages in stock at the moment (I believe theyre all RED but dont quote me), I also just personally stocked 5 smoke halobs(there where 2 already sitting there for a total of 7) and 6 black Halo bs, and ~6red halo bs (altho one is SOO MINE :D ). Not to mention 3 blue ULE bodies and 2 BLACK ule Bodies.. ENJOY!!!

[No sKiLLz]

Do NOT take this as flaming. Everything I am about to say is to educate, not to berate.


Originally posted by Dave_Z


Well since you know so much about how paintball guns work, then you know that the matrix and shocker have no ram/springs like most other paintball guns.

***The term is "fully pneumatic"***

These items obviously are connected to the bolt and carry inertia with them since they move at the same speed as the bolt. Therefore causing more kick than a matrix or shocker since the whole moving assembly weighs considerably more than a matrix or shocker bolt. You have to look at the whole assembly to consider how much recoil it will create.

***Not neccesarily true. This depends on the bolt/kit in the marker. Intimidator, for example, has lightweight rams available, coupled with the delrin bolt, can be similar in weight to that of the Matrix, not to mention the balance of the movement in relation to the point where you maintain stability. My point was delrin is not the be all and end all of reducing kick.***

Now with the martrix and shocker the bolt is the only moving part and the only factors in kick is how much the bolts weigh and how fast they move. Also the paintball will add kick but since they both shoot paint we can ignore it since the kick caused by the paint should be equal at the smae velocity. I don't know how fast each bolt moves but since they fire at about the same bps then I bet the speed of the bolt is pretty close. So if the shocker bolt is lighter than the matrix bolt then it will cause less kick.

Having a low cycling pressure bolt means nothing in terms of kick since the bolt must retain the same speed or else it will shoot slower and who would want that? I agree that a matrix with a well-tuned trinity will be easier on paint than the shocker.

***Don't take this personally, but this is not true. Paint is propelled out of the Matrix and Shocker by the force of the pressurized air, not by the movement of the bolt. If it were all up to the speed of the bolt impacting the paintball, an LPR would be useless and we would never be able to shoot brittle paint.***


It may be that the matrix I shot was "out of tune" but I highly doubt it since the trinity was set right.

***The only way to tell it is set right is to have the marker cycle cleanly, and, without kicking or making a sound, shoot super brittle paint at 300 fps without exploding the ball down your barrel.***

I will try to find some more matrixes around and see who is right.

***Good for you. I applaud this type of attitude.***

As for the evolve bolt kit, then I would bet you would not be able to tell the difference in kick at all. It looks like a very nice bolt kit and honestly I don't understand why there hasn't been a delrin bolt for the matrix sooner.

Understand, the LPR does a LOT for your marker, and I think it was a mistake on the part of Smart Parts to not leave room for one on the Shocker. They did however, build one into the Nerve.

[jinxed]

Originally posted by nastymag

i thought they where suppose to fix the whole air consumption thing ....

Poor effeciency is a problem with the spooler design.
To be most effecient, you need a pressure spike shaped like an upside-down "U", but spooles tend to make a "V" producing alot of wasted pressure. They can't open and close a valve as fast as an forced hammer can.

Nick

[Dave_Z]

No sKiLLz- I guess I see your point. I still disagree on a few of your points, but I agree that SP screwed up by not putting a lpr on the shocker. They sacrificed the lpr and made it tiny instead. Now if they would hurry up and come out with the eye then it won't be that big of a problem. I'll try and find some matrixes to compare to my shocker this weekend.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by jinxed


Poor effeciency is a problem with the spooler design.
To be most effecient, you need a pressure spike shaped like an upside-down "U", but spooles tend to make a "V" producing alot of wasted pressure. They can't open and close a valve as fast as an forced hammer can.

Nick
Well, Matrixes are some of the most efficient guns you can buy now (FF and Evolve Bolt Kits), so I still see it as a fixable problem with the Shocker.

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by Dave_Z
No sKiLLz- I guess I see your point. I still disagree on a few of your points, but I agree that SP screwed up by not putting a lpr on the shocker. They sacrificed the lpr and made it tiny instead. Now if they would hurry up and come out with the eye then it won't be that big of a problem. I'll try and find some matrixes to compare to my shocker this weekend.

I appreciate you being open minded. I truly wish more people would take the time to figure out the Matrix, because a properly set up one is simply unbeatable.