Are we actually learning anything?

[gamarada717]

As I was flipping through my algebra book tonight, I noticed something. Up in the corner, in the fine print, it said, "Where to use in life". Upon seeing that, I started to think about how even though I learn tons of formulas, terms, and patterns, am I actually going to use it in life?

This has occured to me before, but it just crossed my mind. I think that this is a huge flaw in our schools. Who cares if I know how to evaluate a problem. If I don't know WHY I need this, or WHERE I'm going to use it, it's almost pointless. Just more information stored in my brain until after my tests are over....then it's flushed out, and in a month, I'm just as callow in that subject as I was when I began.

I bet that people would be less indolent about things if they knew that it had a meaningful purpose in their lives. I don't learn in school. I memorize. As far as I'm concerned, the only things that I've learned in school for the past 2 years was music.

If teachers gave us a reason to learn, if they motivated us to excel in school, the improvements would be of the charts. Instead, we're in an atrophy of purpose in life, slowly falling below the standards of what we should be.

[-Carnifex-]

Because our schools want to make us as wellrounded as possible so me can pursue whatever course we'd like.

[Restola]

You will use algebra and trig in physics if nowhere else. Even the pathetic introduction you get in high school helps.

And you know what? Parts of college will be the same way. But the real world expects you to have shown you learned certain things.

And you can hardly blame the teachers for work being boring any more than you can one day blame poor performance at work on a boss that doesn't "push" you. The motivation for work hard always has to come from within. I think thats part of maturity.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-
Because our schools want to make us as wellrounded as possible so me can pursue whatever course we'd like.

No, because the teacher's unions like to come up with new ways of claiming that they're teaching "critical thinking and sensitivity" without actually imparting any kind of knowledge on our students.

Although, math scores went up last year, so it looks like some schools are reverting to the methods that work :)

And Algebra is important. Trust me

[Torbo]

i guess restola is right, thats what my parents say too. Course it still doesnt make that crap any easier or fun. I feel excatly the same way everyday sitting in math. not good times:(

[personman]

Originally posted by gamarada717
Just more information stored in my brain until after my tests are over....then it's flushed out, and in a month, I'm just as callow in that subject as I was when I began.
Wierd, my brain flushes out information that I learn about every 5 minites, I dont even have to wait for the tests to be over to get that crap out of my head :D

[animal]

But then somewhere round about my 5th semester of calculus, it all kindof fell together, and I started finding ways to actually think about using all that math to explain things. Taking 2 semesters of calculus based physics REALLY helped to apply all that math I learned to something realistic that can be measured and experienced.

I really knew it was something when I was thinking about paintball guns, and applying differential equations to figure things out. It'll come, just be patient with it, and learn the basics.

[animal]

I should add that I wish they'd cut out all the artsy fartsy crap from schools though. I honestly hate art, have always hated art, and really never want to learn or learn to appreciate art. I saw no point in suffering through it. I really don't like how they try to put half an effort into making people "well rounded". Especially when people like me will strive to forget all that junk. Just give me what I need to know, and let me decide what other bothersome junk I want to stuff my brain with.

Sorry, had to rant.

[Kai]

Originally posted by animal
I should add that I wish they'd cut out all the artsy fartsy crap from schools though. I honestly hate art, have always hated art, and really never want to learn or learn to appreciate art. I saw no point in suffering through it. I really don't like how they try to put half an effort into making people "well rounded". Especially when people like me will strive to forget all that junk. Just give me what I need to know, and let me decide what other bothersome junk I want to stuff my brain with.

Sorry, had to rant.

If they cut the art programs, I would stop going to school. Seriously.

Believe me, there are some of us who GREATLY appreciate the art programs that schools run.

[animal]

Originally posted by Kai


If they cut the art programs, I would stop going to school. Seriously.

Believe me, there are some of us who GREATLY appreciate the art programs that schools run.

I guess I should've added the "Required arsty fartsy crap." It's fine for those who want it, but they shouldn't REQUIRE me to take it if I don't want all that in my curriculum. Those should be electives, just like shop, or music, or things like that. One could argue phy ed should be necessary, but if people aren't going to excerise and be active anyway, what good does a half hour a day do them? Make it an elective and help those people that want to do it in the first place. The real purpose of the school curriculum should be to teach some of the stuff you'd need to know, like basic math, english, grammar, how to read, write, communicate, understand, basic civil liberties, a bit of history of the country they are a part of, and hopefully people would be able to come out of there knowing at least a little bit of common sense... something apparently lacking in at least part of our school systems.

Don't get me wrong, there's a place for artsy classes, it's just not for everyone, and cramming it down people's throats is not the way to teach them "appreciation". I'd hope that not every school system would require it, but mine did.

[Mr.Minus]

at our high school art is only an elective, no required art here except maybe before the 6th grade.

the art programs in our school are what i think the best programs in our school, all our art teachers are artists themselves, and for me its one of the few classes i really enjoy

[animal]

That's good to hear, hopefully most will adopt that strategy as well.

Again don't get me wrong. I'm not ranking on art nor am I ranking on the quality of the art programs, only the fact that some curriculums still require people to take it, as if to force it upon them. Even my college curriculum forced us to take fine art credits. Luckily I was able to get out of it with Guitar 101. Since I had played guitar for 9 years prior, it was cake.

[gamarada717]

Originally posted by animal


I guess I should've added the "Required arsty fartsy crap." It's fine for those who want it, but they shouldn't REQUIRE me to take it if I don't want all that in my curriculum. Those should be electives, just like shop, or music, or things like that. One could argue phy ed should be necessary, but if people aren't going to excerise and be active anyway, what good does a half hour a day do them? Make it an elective and help those people that want to do it in the first place. The real purpose of the school curriculum should be to teach some of the stuff you'd need to know, like basic math, english, grammar, how to read, write, communicate, understand, basic civil liberties, a bit of history of the country they are a part of, and hopefully people would be able to come out of there knowing at least a little bit of common sense... something apparently lacking in at least part of our school systems.

Don't get me wrong, there's a place for artsy classes, it's just not for everyone, and cramming it down people's throats is not the way to teach them "appreciation". I'd hope that not every school system would require it, but mine did.

Totally agreed, even though I haven't had to take this art stuff, but I know I will have to. Art is an appreciation for many. But not for all. If they are going to teach about things that are oppinion and happen to be an enjoyment of their life, then I think we should have a class about soccer and it's history, hell, why not paintball!. But wait. That would be stupid. Nobody likes SOCCER or PAINTBALL....

[SlipknotX556]

Math, you will use for the rest of your life. But some subjects you will not, such as science or english or like spanish or something. You will use math in basically every job.

[-Carnifex-]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


No, because the teacher's unions like to come up with new ways of claiming that they're teaching "critical thinking and sensitivity" without actually imparting any kind of knowledge on our students.

Although, math scores went up last year, so it looks like some schools are reverting to the methods that work :)

And Algebra is important. Trust me

Yeah, I'm sure that's it.

[gamarada717]

I don't think you guys are getting my point. What I'm trying to say is that unless we KNOW where to use math in life, it's pointless. Like the other day, me and my sister went to her friends job at a video rental store, and we asked 100 people if they used trig in their lives. Out of all of those, we had 3 buissness men, and a veteranarian. Now, I'm not saying that math is stupid....it's easily one of the most important subjects, next to reading. It's just, if I know it, and dont know what I would use it for, it's a waste.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-


Yeah, I'm sure that's it.

It really is, and a great example is the above mentioned "Artsy Fartsy Crap". It's a perfect example.

Education has become an experiment to most of the "intellectuals" that design school curriculum. They've become so enamored with the concept of growing individuals that they've forgotten to teach information. All the exploring your sexuality, being sensitive to race, accepting alternative life style, and appreciating the joys of Art classes are all fine and dandy, but they don't teach the fundamental skills needed to succeed. I'm not saying that we should have a bunch of prude, racist, bigoted, art haters for children, but on the other hand tolerating alternative lifestyles isn't exactly a carreer path that non california state representives can choose. The actual learning part has become also a secondary concern and it gets worse every year. It is terribly unfortunate and very sad. We spend nearly $10,000 a year on each child that is educated in this country and we get next to nothing back for our investment.

[gam-e]

Originally posted by SlipknotX556
Math, you will use for the rest of your life. But some subjects you will not, such as science or english or like spanish or something. You will use math in basically every job.

better hope you never want to become a biologist, or a doctor, or a writer, or a lawyer, and with spanish, wow bi-lingual workers make way more than english speaking only people. oh yeah hope you never work in retail, because there is always gonna be someone who only speaks spanish and you are going to have no clue how to help them.

man im not getting down on you but i think that those remarks were said without really thinking. Spanish, English, and the Sciences are so important in MANY aspects of life. I would argue that English is just as important as Math if not moreso, because one always has to be able to articulate his/her feelings to whom they are speaking.

Dion

[-Carnifex-]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


It really is, and a great example is the above mentioned "Artsy Fartsy Crap". It's a perfect example.

Education has become an experiment to most of the "intellectuals" that design school curriculum. They've become so enamored with the concept of growing individuals that they've forgotten to teach information. All the exploring your sexuality, being sensitive to race, accepting alternative life style, and appreciating the joys of Art classes are all fine and dandy, but they don't teach the fundamental skills needed to succeed. I'm not saying that we should have a bunch of prude, racist, bigoted, art haters for children, but on the other hand tolerating alternative lifestyles isn't exactly a carreer path that non california state representives can choose. The actual learning part has become also a secondary concern and it gets worse every year. It is terribly unfortunate and very sad. We spend nearly $10,000 a year on each child that is educated in this country and we get next to nothing back for our investment.

I have no idea what schools you're looking at, but none of the one's I've gone to go out of their way to teach us about exploring our sexuality, being sensitive to race, or accepting alternate lifestyles, and even if they did make an attempt, how is that bad?

The people who go to school and want to learn will, I agree with you that we see little returns from our investment, but I believe it's because we've got a bunch of lazy morons with no work ethic.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

no, dont go to school

[Marek]

I find it interesting reading these posts what some ppl think.

gamarada717, the point that you are taking algebra is on many levels. Yes, you learn math, and it will help if you make that part of your career. Then again, you might not and that is not to say that it is worthless. You learn so much more than just formulas and numbers. Problem solving, critical thinking, trying different possibilities, discipline, etc. This can apply to all subjects.

Let's take music, which is the subject that I teach. You learn patience, self-motivation, self-esteem, independence, discipline, and a whole lot more. Now, you will not find that anywhere in a music book or in Grove's Dictionary. These are things that are taught to the student through the practice of music. Learning a quarter note will not give you enlightenment, but being involved with music will get you some of the things that I listed.

animal, I see your point, but then again, I don't agree for obvious reasons. Alot of times, students are dropped into classes because there is no where else to put them and they are required to take Theatre. Many students do not like to go up on stage and improv, and they should have that right. But, then again, if a student does not like math, should they be excused? Should it be that only ppl that like math should take math? Besides that point, if you had not taken that artsy fartsy crap, then how would you know if you liked it or not?

Hopefully, we try to teach in a larger picture. What we teach will in the end help the greater product which is the student.

[Miscue]

If you're dealing with money, you will run into situations where you need to use algebra. If you're calculating rates of change for some reason, you need calculus. The thing with math is, you don't necessarily use it every day... or maybe hardly at all. But when you do run into the chance situation, you'll be glad that you put study time in.

Algebra's not that bad anyway dude! So, don't fret! Heck, even calculus is easy! The trick is... you just have to work at it and practice.

As far as you not 'learning' as much as memorizing... this is my position on the matter:

I personally believe that school got in the way of my education... if that tells you anything. :p

[OfficerGoat]

School is a weird thing

I have a good freind who makes 6 figures runing the IT department at one of the major companys here in vegas... one of the smartest folks I know. Droped out of highshool.:confused: :confused:

On the other hand.. I have met guys who not only have Bachelors degrees in Computer Science but are MCSE to boot who couldnt tell me what a 26 bit subnet mask is... and even more importantly din't understand why its important.

The really sad part about this is .... when it comes to PCs, Webmastering and any other client end work.. I know my stuff.... but network engeneering... I know squat... period.

Anyhow... dono if you have any computer interest.. bu there is a bit of javascript code to peek at.... Tell me why algerbra is important here.



oChaser.slideInit = function( )
{
var now = new Date( )

this.A = this.targetY - this.currentY
this.B = Math.PI / ( 2 * this.slideTime )
this.C = now.getTime( )

if (Math.abs(this.A) > this.maxDiff) {
this.D = this.A > 0 ? this.targetY - this.maxDiff : this.targetY + this.maxDiff
this.A = this.A > 0 ? this.maxDiff : -this.maxDiff
} else {
this.D = this.currentY
}
}


BTW... I stole this from someplace else... dint feel like writing JS at 3am :D

Anyhow..It'll take a bit of research... but if you can tell me what this little function does mathmaticaly I will show you how it gets put to work practicaly.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-


I have no idea what schools you're looking at, but none of the one's I've gone to go out of their way to teach us about exploring our sexuality, being sensitive to race, or accepting alternate lifestyles, and even if they did make an attempt, how is that bad?

I sincerely doubt you've had none of that indoctrination, you probably just haven't noticed it.

And it's not in itself a bad thing, the bad thing is that it tends to take the place of learning actual stuff (reading, writing, arithmetic, remember those). The school day is very finite and it's important to teach the things will be used later, the actual skills and abilities that will be needed for college and life.

[animal]

Originally posted by Marek
animal, I see your point, but then again, I don't agree for obvious reasons. Alot of times, students are dropped into classes because there is no where else to put them and they are required to take Theatre. Many students do not like to go up on stage and improv, and they should have that right. But, then again, if a student does not like math, should they be excused? Should it be that only ppl that like math should take math? Besides that point, if you had not taken that artsy fartsy crap, then how would you know if you liked it or not?

First off, don't take any of this as a flame ok? I played sax for 6 years in school, and it was enjoyable for me, but I took it as an elective, and for no other reason than I enjoyed it. Later on it was on the basis I learned with sax, I picked up a guitar and taught myself to play it.

Anyways, If indeed people are being put in art classes because there's no room in classes they want to take, then frankly, that is just bs. I understand it is a growing problem today. Student:teacher ratios are going way up and the system is in need of help... bad. I agree I should have the right not to take art or theatre, or dance, or any of the other electives like that. BUT, things like math, reading, spelling, english I feel are fundamental and form the basis for learning. Without a basic knowledge of all of them, learning any of the upper subjects becomes very hard if not impossible. Think of trying to explain something like physics to someone who knows nothing about math. It could be done, but not in any depth, and certainly not easily. These basic fundamentals are the ones that should be required. At a high school level, I think things like history, and american government are also valuable to a young adult starting to enter society. There are things you just should know as an american citizen to be part of society. Art, music, computer programming, phy ed, while an ideal person might know a little about all of these, it is certainly not nearly as important as the basics. We're not all on the planet to play trivial pursuit or jeapardy all day.

I don't like the argument that I need to try something to know I don't like it. By all means, if you enjoy something or find it intriguing, having those classes available to you to explore it are definately only a good thing, but requiring someone to take them kindof kills the point. Like in college I was required to take all kinds of "cultural diversity" courses. These included some credits of the fine arts, humanities, and social sciences. I honestly barely remember more than a fact or two from each class, mainly because I took the easiest ones available to fit the requirements, and I tried only as hard as I needed to get the C grade I was striving to attain. It was a total of 18 credits I really didn't need, and it would've got me out of college sooner and saved me some extra cash in the process.

Just don't take me on a wrong note here though. All of those elective type classes are valuable, but not to everyone. I really agree with the recent movement in Florida for eliminating the senior year. They're allowing students to double up english classes and a few others that would be required in the senior year, and they graduate as a junior, in the mean time they don't have much leeway or room in the curriculum for electives, but the main reason for it is to help ease overcrowding. A senior year is welcomed and those students wishing to remain for that year can and are encouraged. This honestly should satisfy both you and i since I don't like required electives, and you say people are put in those classes they don't necessarily want to be in since there's no room elsewhere. This doesn't satsfy me mainly because I know there will be people who might need that extra year to gain some common sense. I am big on common sense, and I think sometimes it can even take you further in life than book sense.

Heh, I wish there was a required common sense class :D

[Albinonewt]

I'm a big proponent of all the non-fundamental education classes being reserved for after school programs. I don't really mind music education, art education, and the like, but I do mind the fundamentals taking a back seat to those courses.

The system needs a serious overhaul no matter how you look at it. We spend more per student then anyone else in the world, and we get nothing for it. It's time people started asking why?

And frankly it's time people stopped just assuming that is has to be the politician's fault and start looking at the education establishment and finding out what isn't working. I'm tired of people saying that the method for fixing education is to just spend more. We are spending more, and it doesn't help. Can we please look at the system instead of just pouring more money into it?

[animal]

Originally posted by gam-e
better hope you never want to become a biologist, or a doctor, or a writer, or a lawyer, and with spanish, wow bi-lingual workers make way more than english speaking only people. oh yeah hope you never work in retail, because there is always gonna be someone who only speaks spanish and you are going to have no clue how to help them.

man im not getting down on you but i think that those remarks were said without really thinking. Spanish, English, and the Sciences are so important in MANY aspects of life. I would argue that English is just as important as Math if not moreso, because one always has to be able to articulate his/her feelings to whom they are speaking.

You are right on english being very necessary. Like I said in american society it is fundamental. I don't want to get started on what I think of people who don't know english and want to live in a society that does. But since, to read THIS, you know english, my thought on that won't matter.

But. I don't agree with science or another language being a requirement. Sure, not knowing any science won't help you out every day. "Why doesn't my coffee hover here in space when i let go of it?". One could argue it's as important as knowing american government or history as far as entering society is concerned, and I can't argue with that.

I can however argue that a foreign language is necessary. It is simple, pick up any major news paper, watch any major tv network, go to an NFL, NBA, or MLB sporting event, buy a ticket to a movie, or schedule an interview with an american company. At least 99% of these will be in english if not exclusively in english. If you're going into some job that requires spanish, then yes, you'd need spanish. Just like if you're going to be a computer programmer, you'd need to know some type of programming language, or nuclear physics to be a nuclear power plant engineer. It is a catered need for a specific job. You'll need an understanding of it to function. But, should it be required that everyone take this kind of stuff? Heck no. Should it be available to those who WANT it? Sure.

[gam-e]

all i commented on was that English, Science, and Spanish are three heavily used skills.

i dont know what it is like there, but in out stores we have whole sections dedicated to the non english speaking mexicans, and their prices are usually higher in that section. if you know spanish you can help them buy the cheap stuff without the picture and save them some money. we still have migrant workers and they need all the help that they can get.

anyway i agree with you for the most part. never said they should be mandatory. i just argued their importance.

dion

[animal]

Not a problem. I'm really not contesting ANY class's importance, but more just the fact they are made required when they shouldn't be.

[luke]

gamarada717

Take if from someone that had the same attitude in High School, learn your Math! You won't be disappointed later on in life.

And yes, you are right, it would be easier if you knew where the knowledge could be applied. I had a conversation about this just the other day, for young men, math should be taught in industrial arts classes. If your taking those types of classes, you will likely need those Math skills one day.

My biggest High School disappointment is that I didn't learn more math.

[animal]

Originally posted by luke
My biggest High School disappointment is that I didn't learn more math.

Hopefully you're learning more of it now? Not like it's changing or anything. Get thee to a library :D

[luke]

Yes sir I know what you saying! I'm buying a Mill for my shop, I have no excuses now!

[Marek]

Originally posted by animal
First off, don't take any of this as a flame ok? I played sax for 6 years in school, and it was enjoyable for me, but I took it as an elective, and for no other reason than I enjoyed it. Later on it was on the basis I learned with sax, I picked up a guitar and taught myself to play it.

Anyways, If indeed people are being put in art classes because there's no room in classes they want to take, then frankly, that is just bs. I understand it is a growing problem today. Student:teacher ratios are going way up and the system is in need of help... bad. I agree I should have the right not to take art or theatre, or dance, or any of the other electives like that. BUT, things like math, reading, spelling, english I feel are fundamental and form the basis for learning. Without a basic knowledge of all of them, learning any of the upper subjects becomes very hard if not impossible. Think of trying to explain something like physics to someone who knows nothing about math. It could be done, but not in any depth, and certainly not easily. These basic fundamentals are the ones that should be required. At a high school level, I think things like history, and american government are also valuable to a young adult starting to enter society. There are things you just should know as an american citizen to be part of society. Art, music, computer programming, phy ed, while an ideal person might know a little about all of these, it is certainly not nearly as important as the basics. We're not all on the planet to play trivial pursuit or jeapardy all day.

I don't like the argument that I need to try something to know I don't like it. By all means, if you enjoy something or find it intriguing, having those classes available to you to explore it are definately only a good thing, but requiring someone to take them kindof kills the point. Like in college I was required to take all kinds of "cultural diversity" courses. These included some credits of the fine arts, humanities, and social sciences. I honestly barely remember more than a fact or two from each class, mainly because I took the easiest ones available to fit the requirements, and I tried only as hard as I needed to get the C grade I was striving to attain. It was a total of 18 credits I really didn't need, and it would've got me out of college sooner and saved me some extra cash in the process.

Just don't take me on a wrong note here though. All of those elective type classes are valuable, but not to everyone. I really agree with the recent movement in Florida for eliminating the senior year. They're allowing students to double up english classes and a few others that would be required in the senior year, and they graduate as a junior, in the mean time they don't have much leeway or room in the curriculum for electives, but the main reason for it is to help ease overcrowding. A senior year is welcomed and those students wishing to remain for that year can and are encouraged. This honestly should satisfy both you and i since I don't like required electives, and you say people are put in those classes they don't necessarily want to be in since there's no room elsewhere. This doesn't satsfy me mainly because I know there will be people who might need that extra year to gain some common sense. I am big on common sense, and I think sometimes it can even take you further in life than book sense.

Heh, I wish there was a required common sense class :D

Not all people that join band or choir are going to major in music, but as long as they appreciate and remember music for the rest of their lives, our job is done. :)

I agree, I wish the system was different but it is not. It's not enjoyable as a teacher to have a student come in and just hate your subject. They refuse to learn, they haven't tried it, but there is no other place to put them either. That can lead to some discipline problems, which is something added on to what a teacher is already required to do. I believe that a well rounded person from a team of teachers is the idle way of thinking about it. It's not a perfect system, but I know teachers try. It's not like we make millions that we are only in it for the money. Some are, but all are not. That is the case with almost everything, exception to the rule.

I had to take Fine Arts classes also, on top of my basics for my Music degree. I didn't remember much, but I know that I appreciate it more. I guess that is the hope for these people teaching the non-major subject. That they find an appreciation for it. That's what I would want.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Marek
I had to take Fine Arts classes also, on top of my basics for my Music degree. I didn't remember much, but I know that I appreciate it more. I guess that is the hope for these people teaching the non-major subject. That they find an appreciation for it. That's what I would want.

I'm all for appreciation of the arts, so long as the student can tell me were Portugal is on a map and the various other fundamentals.

Without the fundamentals all you've got is an unemployable kid that appreciates impressionistic art.

[Marek]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
Without the fundamentals all you've got is an unemployable kid that appreciates impressionistic art.

That's funny, I like that. But true, so true.

[gam-e]

Originally posted by Albinonewt

Without the fundamentals all you've got is an unemployable kid that appreciates impressionistic art.

or Martha Stewart

[-Carnifex-]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


I sincerely doubt you've had none of that indoctrination, you probably just haven't noticed it.

And it's not in itself a bad thing, the bad thing is that it tends to take the place of learning actual stuff (reading, writing, arithmetic, remember those). The school day is very finite and it's important to teach the things will be used later, the actual skills and abilities that will be needed for college and life.

Oh I know they're incorperated, I was under the impression you meant it was overt. If it isn't what's the problem? My school, and all of the surrounding schools teach the core subjects. The only real problem is students, most of them, honestly don't want to learn, thus it slows things down. In reality the problem is stupid people, who should be fed to tiger, lions, and/or bears.

Also, where I am I barely see no fundemental classes outranking the core subjects, especially in highschool. I have Chemistry for an hour and fifty minutes, same with Math / English (On alternating days), fifty minutes of foreign language, fifty minutes of tech (same time is slated for art or gym, and yes, I had to take tech over gym :mad: ), and a fifty minute elective.

[AngelBoy]

Math is definately something that almost everyone will use, and I believe everyone needs to have be strong in math.

English is a different story. Yeah, I do think everyone should learn the proper way to speak, write, etc... but I do not agree with all the boring books everyone has to read. Im sure some people enjoy it, and get something out of it, but the truth is that almost everyone finds a way around actually reading it by cheating or just reading summaries of them.

I HATED taking art. It was awful. I appreciate art, I really do, but I hated art class. You shouldnt be given a grade on how well you draw, its just stupid. Especially being able to fail you for that. I guess that depends on the teacher though, ours sucked. It definately shouldnt be a required course.

What do you guys think about Drug Testing through the school? Our program for it right now does random drug testing for people who's parents have signed saying that they dont mind it, but it is required if you play a sport of any kind, are in a club, park at school, go on a field trip, run for any class office, or even go to prom. They come and get you out of lunch and take you to the bathroom where you stand in front of a monitering teacher and pee in a cup. They dont tell you ahead of time, and if you can't pee then you automatically have to go to 8 weeks of drug counciling. I just dont think that its run very well at all, and is overall kinda stupid. Would counciling at school with a teacher who isnt really a counciler anyway actually stop someone who is doing drugs?