Is there a point to adjustable tanks??

[FallNAngel]

Before you reply, hear me out...

I know on RT mags, the input will change the reactivity of the trigger. But what about on other markers? I mean, my cocker for instance.. it has a Palmer Stabilizer, would having an adjustable tank actually do anything to help/hurt the Stabilizers consistancy?

Yes, I know some tanks don't need a second regulator, namely MaxFlo's and Mega regs. Mags have a built in regulator, so they really don't need another one. So what do you guys say? Does it actually make a difference to have an adjustable tank on a marker that has second regulator anyway?

[xen_100]

for some people the adjustability is not needed. but most highend, high flow tanks are adjustable.

you also have guns like the bushy (I hear they fixed this) that can only have 500PSI input to thier reg. an LP tank or adjustable is needed for that reason too.

also, as you mentioned, if you get a good adjustable (IE: maxflo, dynaflow, geddon, conqwest) you wont even need a secondary reg. this will save you $100 (and one more thing to go wrong)

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by xen_100
for some people the adjustability is not needed. but most highend, high flow tanks are adjustable.

Yes, but why? So far the only real real to even need an adjustable tank that needs another regulator anyway is the bushmaster example you gave (in which there's actually a flawed product). I can't think of any other reason why anyone would otherwise need a "low quality" adjustable tank except for mags.


P.S. By "low quality" I mean a reg that will require another regulator anyway.

[Eric Cartman]

I think it'd be worth having the adjustable because it gives you the flexability to use your air system efficiently on different guns. I have my reg set to 850 for my mag, but other guns can be run on much lower pressures. If you can efficiently run your gun on a lower output pressure, it'd be worth it just to get more shots out of your tank.

just my $0.02(CDN)

[FallNAngel]

Yes, but you didn't read my first post completely... or you completely missed the point of it. In my case, I have a Palmer Stabilizer on my Cocker. The Nitro Duck XStream isn't "high end" enough to not need another regulator to go with it (hence, the Stabilizer). Since the Stabilizer is going to be dictating the pressure that goes into the gun, it doesn't matter if I use an adjustable tank or not. I could just as well use a preset and get the same performance, correct? Or will running a tank output pressure closer or farther to my operating pressure actually make a difference in consistancy?

[Marek]

Well, 2 schools of thought.

1) You have an inline reg and a preset and you are fine since the inline controls what is going into the gun. Then you have an adjustable and no inline and it saves on weight and costs about the same either way. Just connect the tank directly to the tank.

2) You have an adjustable tank and an inline. You are double regging the marker as a precaution. If the inline blows or goes down with a preset tank, the preset pressure is the one going in full force without the help of the inline.

I think it's more to the point that if you have a cocker and a mag (for example) that you just need one tank and that is it. You can adjust the pressure to fit the gun. That is to say if you have an inline on the cocker or not.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Marek
Well, 2 schools of thought.

1) You have an inline reg and a preset and you are fine since the inline controls what is going into the gun. Then you have an adjustable and no inline and it saves on weight and costs about the same either way. Just connect the tank directly to the tank.

But if the adjustable isn't consistant enough on it's own such as an XStream or Worrgas, connecting the tank directly to the gun isn't an option.


Originally posted by Marek
2) You have an adjustable tank and an inline. You are double regging the marker as a precaution. If the inline blows or goes down with a preset tank, the preset pressure is the one going in full force without the help of the inline.

Yes, but in either case, chances are you'll either
A) Shoot hot (possible if the gun isn't "set right")
B) Not shoot at all (too much pressure holding the valve shut)
C) Shoot low (too much pressure, but not enough to hold it shut)


Originally posted by Marek
I think it's more to the point that if you have a cocker and a mag (for example) that you just need one tank and that is it. You can adjust the pressure to fit the gun. That is to say if you have an inline on the cocker or not.

yes, but what's the point of adjusting the pressure to the gun if I'm going to end up adjusting it further down the line at the inline anyway? Keep in mind, the whole point of my question is that whatever adjustable tank you happen to be using does need an inline reg. I'm leaving out the "reg x is consistant enough to not need an inline" or "my mag doesn't need another reg" arguements.

[Spaceman613]

I like rail adapters, rail adapters only come on adjustable tanks. I dont like screw in tanks for my serious guns.

Im picky about my gear, so I use dynaflows. small, light, have an on/off that works, and uses a rail (without an adapter than make it longer thna needed.

[FallNAngel]

Thanks for that completely pointless post that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. There's a reason the first words of my first post were "Before you reply, hear me out" Next time, please read the first post and try to stay on topic.

[Kaiser Bob]

you only want around 200 psi of head pressure between the tank and inline, anymore then that you work the inline excessively, any less and you MAY run the risk of shootdown. Therefore with different guns having different operating pressures, an adjustible tank does have its benefits.

[Skoad]

Originally posted by xen_100
you also have guns like the bushy (I hear they fixed this) that can only have 500PSI input to thier reg.


yes they fixed it, friend ran a bko on a 850 preset

[dcmander]

I like adjustables mostly because of how they mount.

I don't like the whole screw-in thing.

I'm surprised no one has come out with a preset tank that has a dovetail on it and you use fittings instead of screwing the tank into an ASA. :confused:

If someone made this I would buy it and save a hundred or so..But I still love my dynaflow.

That is another reason why I went adjustable. They dyanflow is the only tank that I know of that bleeds the whole line. I really like that, and I think it is very useful on any gun, especially the mag.

[Marek]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
But if the adjustable isn't consistant enough on it's own such as an XStream or Worrgas, connecting the tank directly to the gun isn't an option.

But for tanks that are consistent, (Flatlines for example) that idea is a possibility and people do do this. This is taking what I said out of context. Yes, there can be problems if the tank is not consistent, or has a slow recharge rate, but why would you buy an adjustable tank like that if you plan on hooking it up directly to the gun?


Originally posted by FallNAngel
Yes, but in either case, chances are you'll either
A) Shoot hot (possible if the gun isn't "set right")
B) Not shoot at all (too much pressure holding the valve shut)
C) Shoot low (too much pressure, but not enough to hold it shut)

Yes, but again, taking my words out of context. Like Kaiser Bob pointed out, too much and it's overworked. Not enough and it may have shootdown. But, if setup properly, then no, you will not have a problem.


Originally posted by FallNAngel
yes, but what's the point of adjusting the pressure to the gun if I'm going to end up adjusting it further down the line at the inline anyway? Keep in mind, the whole point of my question is that whatever adjustable tank you happen to be using does need an inline reg. I'm leaving out the "reg x is consistant enough to not need an inline" or "my mag doesn't need another reg" arguements.

Let's say you have a Preset A at 850 and you hook it up to Marker A. Marker A says that it should not have an input of more than 800. So you get an inline to lower the pressure going into the gun. If it blows, then 850 psi will be going into Marker A, which is bad.

There is a purpose for getting adjustable tanks and for different reasons. Seems that none of the reasons fall upon you, and that is why you are questioning it. If you had a Timmy and an Emag, and a Flatline tank, then it would serve you, because you can have the high output for the Emag on hybrid, and still use the tank on the Timmy. If you had 450, the Emag wouldn't work. If you had an 850, then both wouldn't work. (because of no inline.)

[Wat]

There really isn't many legitmate reasons for having an adjustable regulator on your HPA tank if you're going to run an inline reg or have a mag thats already regulated. Basically, there is no need to have two adjustable regulators on a gun (not including LPR regs for the pneumatics).

However, despite my dissapproval of the Smart Parts, the Max flow is quite a nice system and there is no need for a secondary reg so it being adjustable is a necessity. Due to its cost and it being SP, an alternative is to buy an inline reg and a much cheaper preset tank.

However, i have two nelson valve based guns. For high rates of fire, these guns require an input pressure of 700-750psi. There is no room to put an inline reg in so i'm forced to use a max flow.

[xen_100]

Originally posted by Spaceman613
I like rail adapters, rail adapters only come on adjustable tanks. I dont like screw in tanks for my serious guns.


well the screw in thing is your own preferance, but you can get rail mounted ASAs, so that is not a valid argument.

[Spaceman613]

yes it is a valid argument. the asa adds length to the tank. Which affects my comfort and the way the gun points. It also affects balance.

I use rail mounted asa's on a few of my pumpers, and they just dont feel as secure or as balanced and a rail thats directly on the reg.

It IS my preference, I pay my money so my gun is as comfortable as possible. Balance is the key and rail mounted asa's dont seem to offer that for me.

[Eric Cartman]

Yes, but you didn't read my first post completely
Guilty as charged:)
Yeah, if you've already got an inline and all you're doing is lowering the pressure, then I see no point in you getting an adjustable reg. If however, you wanted higher pressure (I haven't seen too many presets above 800 / 850 psi), the only way to go would be adjustable and then you could lose the inline.

Cheers.

[xen_100]

yes it is a valid argument. the asa adds length to the tank. Which affects my comfort and the way the gun points. It also affects balance.

I use rail mounted asa's on a few of my pumpers, and they just dont feel as secure or as balanced and a rail thats directly on the reg.

It IS my preference, I pay my money so my gun is as comfortable as possible. Balance is the key and rail mounted asa's dont seem to offer that for me.



ahh, but you said they didn't exsist........and you were wrong. your preferance for them has nothing to do with weather or not they exsist.

[Spaceman613]

"and uses a rail (without an adapter than make it longer thna needed."

read my original message... wouldnt the ASA be an adapter that makes it longer? did i ever say thats rail asa's didnt exist? nope, i said i use rail systems becuase THEY DONT NEED THE ADAPTER.

[xen_100]

Originally posted by Spaceman613
I like rail adapters, rail adapters only come on adjustable tanks. I dont like screw in tanks for my serious guns.

Im picky about my gear, so I use dynaflows. small, light, have an on/off that works, and uses a rail (without an adapter than make it longer thna needed.

yes, actually you did say that.

[Spaceman613]

well, then you only read one part. I dont see any pre-set tanks with rails. Do you? If you read the REST of my post you would have realized this.

End of arguemnt, you misunderstood my post, or maybe I didnt type it clearly enough.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Marek
But for tanks that are consistent, (Flatlines for example) that idea is a possibility and people do do this. This is taking what I said out of context. Yes, there can be problems if the tank is not consistent, or has a slow recharge rate, but why would you buy an adjustable tank like that if you plan on hooking it up directly to the gun?

That's my point... you (hoperfully) wouldn't buy a tank with a slow recharge rate or one that isn't consistant and hook it directly up to the gun. You'd use an inline to help that... but if you're using an inline, why use an adjustable? (read below)



Originally posted by Marek
Yes, but again, taking my words out of context. Like Kaiser Bob pointed out, too much and it's overworked. Not enough and it may have shootdown. But, if setup properly, then no, you will not have a problem.

This is really what I was looking for. So what you're saying is, if my cocker is running at say 300psi, and I set tank output pressure to 550 ish, I would get better consistancy than if I had used an 800-850 preset (since I wouldn't be "overworking" the inline)?


Originally posted by Marek
If you had an 850, then both wouldn't work. (because of no inline.)

Why not? My friend has used my ND preset several times on his XMag.. the internal regulator will bring down the 800+psi to the operating pressure, right? And the preset would only not work on the timmy if the inline reg fails. Even then, you wouldn't be putting that much pressure on the solenoid (that's why you'd have the LPR is for). The gun might stop working, but you technically haven't broken anything except the inline.

[Marek]

Again, let me make this as simple as possible.

You have a Timmy with no inline. You buy a Conquest to save on weight and size, and hook it up directly to the tank. That works.

You have the same Timmy, with an inline reg, such as Palmer Stab, and you have a preset, such as a Crossfire. Thats works also.

Which one is more consistent, well it depends on the products. If they are good quality, then one should not have an advantage over another. One will not be more consistent than the other.

You have the same Timmy with an inline reg, and a Conquest tank.

Is it needed? No.
Why would someone buy it? High flow rate, recharge rate, etc. and security that if the inline blows, the gun will be fine.
Are those the only reasons? No. Position of the tank, no ASA needed etc.

You might not see the reasons to buy one if you have one gun, have an inline, etc. That is fine, but the option is there for people that do want adjustable tanks. There are reasons, but like I said earlier, it seems that none of them fall to you.

If you pump 850 on a gun that tells you not to run more than 700 into it, you will have problems galore. That is the point of why I said that the 850 preset will not work for both an Emag and Timmy. Timmys shouldn't have 850 psi running into them. Read the post again and see what I am talking about. I said a Timmy with no inline, so you would need another tank.

Hope this helps.

[FallNAngel]

Alright, that I understand. Can you explain what is meant by "overworking the inline" a bit better?

[xen_100]

I would like an answer to that too...........cause I dont beleive it for one minute. if the tank reg can take 4500PSI down to 200psi and not be "overworked" how is an inline that is taking 800PSI down to 200PSI being "overworked"?

if this were true, then a mag would benifit from an inline reg to take the tank pressure of 800 down to 600, so the reg in the mag wouldn't have to work so hard to bring it down to 400. but anyone who uses mags knows this is simply not true.

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by xen_100
I would like an answer to that too...........cause I dont beleive it for one minute. if the tank reg can take 4500PSI down to 200psi and not be "overworked" how is an inline that is taking 800PSI down to 200PSI being "overworked"?

if this were true, then a mag would benifit from an inline reg to take the tank pressure of 800 down to 600, so the reg in the mag wouldn't have to work so hard to bring it down to 400. but anyone who uses mags knows this is simply not true.

It's not the case for all inlines, but for lower pressure, high flow regs like the sidewinder, you'll find people needing more core changes due to running 850psi into the reg and regging that down to 200-300psi.

ADDED: Also the greater the pressure difference, the bigger the fluctuations coming out of the inline.

[xen_100]

I used a sidewinder for a year and half off a 850 PSI screw in, never problem.

I will believe that to a point.......it the tank pressure and the inline reg pressure are set too close, the inline will not have a purpose. it can actually cause the inline to hinder the tank, because it will not recharge it fast enough. no pressure differential.

and again, look at the mag. internal reg, recharges faster and more consistant if you feed it 800+ PSI of pressure.

[Marek]

Originally posted by xen_100
I would like an answer to that too...........cause I dont beleive it for one minute. if the tank reg can take 4500PSI down to 200psi and not be "overworked" how is an inline that is taking 800PSI down to 200PSI being "overworked"?

if this were true, then a mag would benifit from an inline reg to take the tank pressure of 800 down to 600, so the reg in the mag wouldn't have to work so hard to bring it down to 400. but anyone who uses mags knows this is simply not true.

I know Kaiser Bob already answered the question, but this is just an add on to the case for a mag. If you did that, (put an inline on a mag) you would starve the valve.

[xen_100]

Originally posted by Marek


I know Kaiser Bob already answered the question, but this is just an add on to the case for a mag. If you did that, (put an inline on a mag) you would starve the valve.

exactly my point.......and since a mag is just a reg with 850 PSI going into it, why is it bad to run a screw in at 850 PSI and make the inline "work hard"(whatever that means, it doesn't work any harder) to bring the pressure down? it doesn't.

[Marek]

Originally posted by xen_100
exactly my point.......and since a mag is just a reg with 850 PSI going into it, why is it bad to run a screw in at 850 PSI and make the inline "work hard"(whatever that means, it doesn't work any harder) to bring the pressure down? it doesn't.

The valve has a built-in regulator to lower the pressure down to like 60 psi. How many other guns do you know that do this?

[xen_100]

Originally posted by Marek


The valve has a built-in regulator to lower the pressure down to like 60 psi. How many other guns do you know that do this?

it is more like 350-500 PSI depending on if you have LX or not. 60PSI is what the ball gets once the air has expanded past the bolt.(also the dump chamber does not empty complettely. there is always a residual charge)

[Marek]

Originally posted by xen_100
it is more like 350-500 PSI depending on if you have LX or not. 60PSI is what the ball gets once the air has expanded past the bolt.(also the dump chamber does not empty complettely. there is always a residual charge)

Yup, you are correct. 60 psi is around what hits the ball.

[xen_100]

agreed........but the regulator does not regulate it down to 60PSI.

[GT]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
Before you reply, hear me out...

so they really don't need another one. So what do you guys say?

Does it actually make a difference to have an adjustable tank on a marker that has second regulator anyway?


Few reasons why I use adjustibles, Dont get your panties in a wad if they dont answer your qs.

1. Weight. eliminate the asa and I have saved an once or 2

2. Less crap to go wrong. You have elminated the ASA so there is less chance of leakage. One less oring to worry about. If you notice 99% of paintball equipment is designed around reliability, keeping things simple and working until the end of the day. Even better is the single reg. Hollow out the mini on you angel to a gas through and just run a maxy, wow nice.

3. Resale value. Most folks are brain washed and think that they "need" an adj tank for "tunning." Most paintball folks have no clue how to work on thier guns.

4. Momma told me to share. IF a bud or any random person is having tank probs and I dont think they will run off with my stuff, I offer them a tank. This weekend I offered up my 68/4.5k flatline and i would just use co2 on the shocker. In any case this guy had a cocker so the adj would be nice for him.

5. Safety. Why run 850 psi to my maxy on my shoe box when I could run a hare under 400? That pencil thin line that runs by my arm may bite me one day.

6. Mounting hose options. All of the tanks I have owned, except air, in the past give me a few options on where I can place guages, fill, and output.

7. ouput guage. Nice to know what you are actually running into the gun. most presets dont have an ouptut so your gun may get kinda funny and you never knew that your tank slowly crept up to 1k+.

just my 2's.

jb

[FallNAngel]

OK, let me change the question a bit..

Can having the tank output pressure that's going to the inline really make the shot-to-shot consistancy noticably better? eg. Will I notice better consistancy with a tank that's running 550-600 instead of 800-850 when my operating pressure is around 300ish?

[GT]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
OK, let me change the question a bit..

Can having the tank output pressure that's going to the inline really make the shot-to-shot consistancy noticably better? eg. Will I notice better consistancy with a tank that's running 550-600 instead of 800-850 when my operating pressure is around 300ish?

Honestly I dont think that is a question with a simple answer. There would have to be extensive data with an adjustible tank on 2 twin setups and perfect paint. Problem is no 2 guns are alike. The genral rule of thumb, as stated above, is 200 + the next reg. Technically I dont think your op is going to be 300, rather that regs output is 300 so 200+300=500psi min. safe zone..... I think I am babbaling

Personally end of the day take home message is that how well tunned your gun, tank, p-barrel match is what really will determine shot-shot consistancy. I really think we are just arguing over nothing more than opnion at this point. In otherwords find a tank in your price point, with a good reg, and call it a day

jb

[Marek]

Originally posted by xen_100
agreed........but the regulator does not regulate it down to 60PSI.

Agreed.

[Shane-O-Mac]

I think many of you are forgetting the real reason for dual regulation. as any given air systems tank pressure goes down, the ouput pressure goes up, it is physics and no company can alter that. but, some companys can compensate for it to an extent. SP and the Max-Flow does to a point, but i have seen a max-flow have a change of 30-40 psi higher on the output side. does that affect your gun? yes for consistency it will, and may raise or lower your velocity. so if a tank going from 4500 to 800 psi, changes 30-40 psi, then you feed that into a good inline reg, then the inline reg will not see a change in pressure into the gun. I have not used or tested an air system that i trust to completly regulate my guns, without a secondary reg. the only companys that offer a "Dual Regulated" system, are PMI's THOR and supposedly nitro ducks mega reg, which i have not confirmed for myself. SP claims the max-flow is a "Balanced" regulator, note they do not call it dual regged, as you must have 2 pistons and 2 springs in the correct order to be a dual regged system. i have heard the new conquests are consistent without a secondary reg, but i would like to test it for myself (anyone wanna let me try one?..lol).
Shane-O

[dcmander]

Originally posted by Shane-O-Mac
I think many of you are forgetting the real reason for dual regulation. as any given air systems tank pressure goes down, the ouput pressure goes up, it is physics and no company can alter that. but, some companys can compensate for it to an extent. SP and the Max-Flow does to a point, but i have seen a max-flow have a change of 30-40 psi higher on the output side. does that affect your gun? yes for consistency it will, and may raise or lower your velocity. so if a tank going from 4500 to 800 psi, changes 30-40 psi, then you feed that into a good inline reg, then the inline reg will not see a change in pressure into the gun. I have not used or tested an air system that i trust to completly regulate my guns, without a secondary reg. the only companys that offer a "Dual Regulated" system, are PMI's THOR and supposedly nitro ducks mega reg, which i have not confirmed for myself. SP claims the max-flow is a "Balanced" regulator, note they do not call it dual regged, as you must have 2 pistons and 2 springs in the correct order to be a dual regged system. i have heard the new conquests are consistent without a secondary reg, but i would like to test it for myself (anyone wanna let me try one?..lol).
Shane-O

Good post.

Companies also worry about shootdown as the tank runs out of air..which is why the dynaflow increases the pressure has the air in the tank recreases.

Is this a good thing? I dunno, but I haven't had problems with consistancy with my mag all through my fill.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by gtrsi
Honestly I dont think that is a question with a simple answer. There would have to be extensive data with an adjustible tank on 2 twin setups and perfect paint. Problem is no 2 guns are alike. The genral rule of thumb, as stated above, is 200 + the next reg. Technically I dont think your op is going to be 300, rather that regs output is 300 so 200+300=500psi min. safe zone..... I think I am babbaling

Well, honestly I don't know that my operating pressure is 300, but that's about right for a cocker.. they usually go 250-350ish.


Originally posted by gtrsi
In otherwords find a tank in your price point, with a good reg, and call it a day

Good point, it's just that I have both a Nitro Duck XStream and Nitro Duck Preset... just wondering if one will really help more than the other. I think A) Chances are it probably won't B) I should probably sweetspot / crono with one, then change tanks and see if there's any noticable change.

[f3rr3+]

i know this may be blasphemy but, well, max-flows kick *** :P

[FallNAngel]

it's not so much blasphemy as completely unrelated and pointless.

[845]

I went from Nitroduck 68/3000 preset at 800( i think) to a Xstream 68/45 and I noticed a significant increase in consistency over chrono. Using timmy and torpedo.