Ninth Circuit court of Appeals Vs. California Democracy

[Albinonewt]

Ninth Circuit (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/11/davis.recall.ap/index.html)

Now, for those of you that don't know, the ninth circuit court of appeals doesn't use the same Constitution that the rest of the country does. They are overturned nearly everytime they even bother to speak. No matter what you think of their decisions there is no denying that they are almost always found to be incorrect by the Supreme Court.

And now they're buying the ACLU's arguement that these machines are so terrible and so antiquated that they literally cannot be used, and that using them will destroy the earth. Funny thing about that is, nobody was complaining about the machines less then a year ago when they elected Davis. But the same machines that were accurate enough to re-elect him are no longer accurate enough to throw him out.

I'm not a big proponent of the recall the way that it was done, but it is part of the California Constitution, so there's no complaining about it's legality. So it should happen, and it should happen in a fair manner (not on the same ballot as the Democratic primary, if Davis supporters can't be bothered to go to the polls then they don't care enough to elect the governor)

I'm curious to see if the Supreme Court gets involved. They didn't for NJ's little problem with Torecelli last election, so I'm wondering if they just let this one fly by them like they did before.

[Jack_Dubious]

All the times ive voted in So. California, theyve always used the voting machine that consisted of a punch card, a tablet that held the card in place and a punch/stylus that you use to select your choice. Im not sure if they use different types of machines in other parts of california....but how the hell can a punch card system become old and defective?!?!

JDub

[Albinonewt]

Another Article about the 9th Court of appeals (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-thomas091603.asp)

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
Ninth Circuit (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/11/davis.recall.ap/index.html)

Now, for those of you that don't know, the ninth circuit court of appeals doesn't use the same Constitution that the rest of the country does. They are overturned nearly everytime they even bother to speak. No matter what you think of their decisions there is no denying that they are almost always found to be incorrect by the Supreme Court.

And now they're buying the ACLU's arguement that these machines are so terrible and so antiquated that they literally cannot be used, and that using them will destroy the earth. Funny thing about that is, nobody was complaining about the machines less then a year ago when they elected Davis. But the same machines that were accurate enough to re-elect him are no longer accurate enough to throw him out.

I'm not a big proponent of the recall the way that it was done, but it is part of the California Constitution, so there's no complaining about it's legality. So it should happen, and it should happen in a fair manner (not on the same ballot as the Democratic primary, if Davis supporters can't be bothered to go to the polls then they don't care enough to elect the governor)

I'm curious to see if the Supreme Court gets involved. They didn't for NJ's little problem with Torecelli last election, so I'm wondering if they just let this one fly by them like they did before.

Forgot to say that the machines have been outlawed to be used recently, when they was used before they were legal.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Forgot to say that the machines have been outlawed to be used recently, when they was used before they were legal.

They weren't outlawed, they were scheduled for upgrade and replacement. They were not declared "illegal". It was decided after the Florida recount to upgrade them. Now, if memory serves Davis was re-elected to the Governorship after the year 2000.

It's utter nonsense. The punch cards are an unconstitutional way to recall a Democrat, but they are a perfectly constitutional way to elect him. The bias of the 9th circuit court shines through as bright as always.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


They weren't outlawed, they were scheduled for upgrade and replacement. They were not declared "illegal". It was decided after the Florida recount to upgrade them. Now, if memory serves Davis was re-elected to the Governorship after the year 2000.

It's utter nonsense. The punch cards are an unconstitutional way to recall a Democrat, but they are a perfectly constitutional way to elect him. The bias of the 9th circuit court shines through as bright as always.

The voting method has been recently said to be illegal and non productive as was stated on the republican news channel (Fox News) last night.

[Albinonewt]

You misinterpreted what they said. The counties are under court order to replace the machines prior to the Democratic primary that will be held there in March. They are scheduled to be replaced in January. They are not illegal now. Now, if the counties tried to use them in the election in March they would be violating a court order, but even then they wouldn't be violating a law.

[1stdeadeye]

Actually the case should have been dismissed out of hand. The ACLU and State of California agreed the system was flawed. They signed an agreement last year that the system would be replaced by 2004. The California Dem and Republican heads on CNN last night both agreed to this FACT . The ACLU lawsuit was counter to the agreement they signed. The ACLU had agreed not to sue before 2004 to give California the chance to fix the system. The agreement predates Davis's re-election. This is a blatent attempt by the ACLU to circumvent democracy.

I am from Jersey and don't care who wins or loses. The ACLU is trying to undermine the process for their candidates gain. ACLU should be ashamed of themselves.

[ZAust]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
ACLU should be ashamed of themselves.

damn straight.


Mark Rosenbaum.... said there are "grave federal interests" involving the federal Voting Rights Act and potential discrimination against poor and minority voters who may have difficulty with the punch-card ballots.

does someone want to explain this part to me. how would being poor or a minority have ANY bearing whatsoever on how you operate a voting machine? this lawsuit is absolutely ridiculous. having said that, i dont believe davis should be recalled. he was elected for 4 years, he has commited no crime, let him serve out his term. i do agree that he has done a less than stellar job, but he managed to keep our power on and had to deal with the worst economic downturn since the depression. having said that, if this was a regular election and i was old enough to vote, i would not vote for the man. but give hime his term.. the people of california elected him to do it originally.

[Curly]

Originally posted by ZAust
having said that, i dont believe davis should be recalled. he was elected for 4 years, he has commited no crime, let him serve out his term. i do agree that he has done a less than stellar job, but he managed to keep our power on and had to deal with the worst economic downturn since the depression. having said that, if this was a regular election and i was old enough to vote, i would not vote for the man. but give hime his term.. the people of california elected him to do it originally.

I agree.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Actually the case should have been dismissed out of hand. The ACLU and State of California agreed the system was flawed. They signed an agreement last year that the system would be replaced by 2004. The California Dem and Republican heads on CNN last night both agreed to this FACT . The ACLU lawsuit was counter to the agreement they signed. The ACLU had agreed not to sue before 2004 to give California the chance to fix the system. The agreement predates Davis's re-election. This is a blatent attempt by the ACLU to circumvent democracy.

I am from Jersey and don't care who wins or loses. The ACLU is trying to undermine the process for their candidates gain. ACLU should be ashamed of themselves.

If that is the case, then the ACLU should be ashamed. I thought that Fox said something different last night, but on checking it is how you and Albinonewt say it is.

But my opinion on the whole situation still will not change. It is not for the better of the state, it is not for the people, it is for the 2004 presidential election.

If the bitter arguments stop in congress and the governor’s office and congress can agree on something, then something can get done. If a republican is in office, then that is 54 votes automatically towards the republicans.

Just a classic power struggle.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
But my opinion on the whole situation still will not change. It is not for the better of the state, it is not for the people, it is for the 2004 presidential election.

If the bitter arguments stop in congress and the governor’s office and congress can agree on something, then something can get done. If a republican is in office, then that is 54 votes automatically towards the republicans.

Just a classic power struggle.

I'm going to disagree with you again CB. The Bush White House was completely against the recall effort when it started and even went so far to place phone calls to prominent Republicans in California to get them to not support the recall. The White House knows that it is extremely unlikely that California breaks out of it's tailspin in time for election season no matter who the governor of California is. That's why they'd rather have a Democratic Governor that the people HATE come election time. Their hope was that if the citizens of California were having their lives completely ruined by a Domcratic Governor then they might be more inclined to vote for a Republican President.

If a Republican Governor is running California come election time that will sound Bush's Death knell in that State. Unless of course that Republican Governor has some how fixed things, but what are the chances of that?

Especially considreing the state legislatures that you mentioned above. They are corrupt, completely and totally. It will take a couple of years to get enough of them out to accomplish anything. The current California congress is a complete disaster and a collection of the worst kinds of politicians around. Now, maybe somone like Arnold (or McClntlock the unelectable) can stand up to them and make them act like adults, but that will not be a quick process. And frankly, if someone is able to do it and fix the state then maybe the people of California will vote that party's candidate into the office of the President next year. But I doubt it. Look at NYC. They voted for a conservative Mayor two times in a row and Clinton carried the city by something like 40% over Bush and Dole. And Giuliani was popular and doing a good job.

[Albinonewt]

Looks like the entire 9th circuit court will hear the case.

That should be intersting. I can almost guarantee they'll uphold their own decision. I wonder what the Supreme Court will do.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by ZAust
does someone want to explain this part to me. how would being poor or a minority have ANY bearing whatsoever on how you operate a voting machine?

Becuase the older machines are in poorer areas of the state. And those poorer areas are predominatly minority areas. So the ACLU is argueing that for minorities to have to use the older machines while white folk get to use the newer machines is disenfranchising to minorities.

[MaChu]

Becuase the older machines are in poorer areas of the state. And those poorer areas are predominatly minority areas. So the ACLU is argueing that for minorities to have to use the older machines while white folk get to use the newer machines is disenfranchising to minorities.

Why does this matter since it is a way to vote?
Voting is voting.

Are minorities considered so stupid that they can't use a punch card?
No, they aren't but sure does seem like the ACLU thinks so.

Does this just seem like a way to stall for time?
It does to me.

Is Texas better than California?
Damn straight.:D Yeehaw!

[Collegeboy]

The problem with the punch machines is in most of them the lines of the punch do not line up with the lines of the card. So you could in essence you are trying to vote for Bob, when in reality you are voting for Steve.

This is just one of the problems that Florida ran into.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
The problem with the punch machines is in most of them the lines of the punch do not line up with the lines of the card. So you could in essence you are trying to vote for Bob, when in reality you are voting for Steve.

This is just one of the problems that Florida ran into.

Don't try to play that tired crap!

Palm Beach county is very affluent. The DEMOCRATIC elections commisioner designed a piss poor ballet that people were too stupid to read carefully! That is where the confusion came in!

[Albinonewt]

The problem is that not everything is the same everywhere. And any time there is any kind of difference anywhere people will use that difference and exploit it towards their own goal. For the ACLU their goal is to keep a corrupt governor in power that will throw state money at them. And to that end they will exploit this difference to try to keep him in power.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
The problem with the punch machines is in most of them the lines of the punch do not line up with the lines of the card. So you could in essence you are trying to vote for Bob, when in reality you are voting for Steve.

This is just one of the problems that Florida ran into.

And who's responsibility is it to make sure after you've punched the holes in the card that they're where they're supposed to be?

See, with the right to vote goes this dirty little word liberals worldwide hate....


RESPONSIBILITY.

It's the VOTERS job to make sure the vote is correct.

Not the election official. Not the stinking anti American ACLU. Not the Democratic party nor the Republicans.

The VOTER. PERIOD.

[einhander619]

Don't know about the voting machines, personally I think an IQ test should be administered before people can register to vote, but that's just me;) Anyways, I hope the Cali recall doesn't happen, just because I think that Cali needs to live with their mistake and hopefully learn something from it, and next time actually put some thought into who they are voting for.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife


And who's responsibility is it to make sure after you've punched the holes in the card that they're where they're supposed to be?

See, with the right to vote goes this dirty little word liberals worldwide hate....


RESPONSIBILITY.

It's the VOTERS job to make sure the vote is correct.

Not the election official. Not the stinking anti American ACLU. Not the Democratic party nor the Republicans.

The VOTER. PERIOD.

So if you see the hole that says Steve and you punch it, and it votes for Bob, then that is somehow your falt?

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


So if you see the hole that says Steve and you punch it, and it votes for Bob, then that is somehow your falt?

Yeah it really is. I've seen the ballots, they are not put together wrong as you are suggesting, you just need to follow the lines and pay attention. It just requires a little more care when voting then the newer systems.

And if a person voting can't take the extra second to follow the line then I don't care what they have to say about who should be in charge anyway.

[1stdeadeye]

There is no idiot proof ballot! There has to be some responsibility on the part of the voter.

You know, why don't you invent the Idiot proof ballet CB and I guarantee you that the voters will spawn a more powerfull idiot to screw it up!

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
You know, why don't you invent the Idiot proof ballet CB and I guarantee you that the voters will spawn a more powerfull idiot to screw it up!

hehe too true

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by einhander619
Don't know about the voting machines, personally I think an IQ test should be administered before people can register to vote, but that's just me

Not legal. The south used to use literacy tests to prevent blacks from voting.

The right to vote is fundamental to all citizens. Even morons have rights.:rolleyes: The true idiots are the ones who do not vote!

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


So if you see the hole that says Steve and you punch it, and it votes for Bob, then that is somehow your falt?

I hope to god you never vote.


I'll explain this so even you understand.

When you punch the card, and if it's WRONG, you DO NOT TURN IT IN.

How goddamned hard is that? You go to the election official and tell them there's a problem.

Is this so effing hard that you retards that are crying about punchcards can't get it right?

If that's the case then you should be voting, you aren't smart enough to even know wtf is going on.

[Collegeboy]

I don't know what punch cards you use, but the ones I voted on wouldn't allow me to see who the marks went to. You put them into a preset punch thing. And you punch a hole through the perforated holes as the form tells you. You hand in a form with holes in it and no idea if your hole is correct. Then the machines judges who you voted for by what light passes through.

So tell me how one can know if they voted correctly if the punch form or whatever is wrong and out of date.

[Albinonewt]

That sounds nothing like the punch voting I saw. I doubt that there is NO WAY to confirm your vote, but now I'm curious.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I don't know what punch cards you use, but the ones I voted on wouldn't allow me to see who the marks went to. You put them into a preset punch thing. And you punch a hole through the perforated holes as the form tells you. You hand in a form with holes in it and no idea if your hole is correct. Then the machines judges who you voted for by what light passes through.

So tell me how one can know if they voted correctly if the punch form or whatever is wrong and out of date.

Horsecrap.

It STILL does NOT absolve ANYONE from their responisbility of making sure they have voted correctly.

If you even SUSPECTED that you've made a mistake why would you then turn the card in and cry about it later?

this all sounds way too complicated for you, just leave the voting to the adults who take it seriously.

[1stdeadeye]

The Florida Ballet was very straightforward. The name could be corrolated to the hole easy. The Democrats who controlled the Palm Beach Election Commission ASSUMED that voters would be smart enough to see this and of course, they were not.

We use optical scanners here in Gloucester County, NJ. They may be simpler, but they are set up to allow block voting. One button for all Dems, Reps, etc... Talk about looking for party sheep! Not a great system either as far as I am concerned.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife


Horsecrap.

It STILL does NOT absolve ANYONE from their responisbility of making sure they have voted correctly.

If you even SUSPECTED that you've made a mistake why would you then turn the card in and cry about it later?

this all sounds way too complicated for you, just leave the voting to the adults who take it seriously.

Why don't you just stop your rant against me, and your constant insults.

How in the world would you know if you were voting incorrectly, if all your sheet shows are holes? Answer that one.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Why don't you just stop your rant against me, and your constant insults.

How in the world would you know if you were voting incorrectly, if all your sheet shows are holes? Answer that one.


And I ask you again since you seem incapable of grasping an obvious concept.

If you think you've voted incorrectly why would you turn it in?

The only reason I can think of is so you'd have some reason to cry about the results later.

leave it to the adults, you aren't competant enough to vote.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy

How in the world would you know if you were voting incorrectly, if all your sheet shows are holes? Answer that one.

Move to a better community where it is easier to vote? :p

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


Move to a better community where it is easier to vote? :p

Deadeye:

You make a frightening good point.

California has the easiest absentee voting in the United States. Already nearly 100,000 ballots have been cast. All one needs to do to cast an absentee ballot is to ask for one. You don't need to actually be ansent. You just have to not want to vote.

If people are afraid of being disenfranchised (which I think is a dubious claim at best) just get a mail in ballot.

[logamus]

here absentee voting is pushed real hard. you can do it by mail or go to a courthouse and do it for something in the order of 2 weeks prior to the election. part of the reasoning was to let people who say tuesdays are too hard to vote on vote early. which is fine, but they push it hard even on saturday votes. btw, if you have to have a working knowlage of the english language to become a naturalized citizen, why do we need the ballot in spanish? (or any other language for that matter) i use naturalized citizen because there is no excuse for someone born here to not understand english.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


Move to a better community where it is easier to vote? :p

We have swtiched to one of marking your ballet with a black magic marker and the light reads it.


But come on all your opinions on voting shows one thing, you are all republican or close to it.
:p
I mean who else would hate to make it easier for the comman man to vote. :p

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy

We have swtiched to one of marking your ballet with a black magic marker and the light reads it.

Scantron? Like the tests we tok in high school? Welcome to the 80's! :p

But come on all your opinions on voting shows one thing, you are all republican or close to it.
:p
I mean who else would hate to make it easier for the comman man to vote. :p

You know better! We have had this conversation before. Again find a foolproof way to vote and I guarantee you a better fool will find a way to goof it up!

[logamus]

if reading is difficult for someone, then all forms of voting are going to be difficult. i have just a tad more than a high school diploma and i have never once struggled with a ballot. the people have the ability to change their voting system if they see the need. they could also remember you dont get a prize for being the fastest voter. slowing down and actually reading the ballot might, just might, make some difference. and yes, the ability to read is the sole property of republicans so keep your dirty liberal democrat hands off.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
But come on all your opinions on voting shows one thing, you are all republican or close to it.
:p
I mean who else would hate to make it easier for the comman man to vote. :p

Ugh.

The problem is that sometimes things just aren't equal everywhere. Think of the inpracticality of every district in every state having to have the exact same stuff before an election is to happen. Since election equipment is handeled by the municipalities it isn't possible. Some municipalities do things differently, and there's not much we can do about it.

[Miscue]

Yo... cool it or thread is locked.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Miscue
Yo... cool it or thread is locked.

Thanx for the bump Miscue :)

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife



And I ask you again since you seem incapable of grasping an obvious concept.

If you think you've voted incorrectly why would you turn it in?

The only reason I can think of is so you'd have some reason to cry about the results later.

leave it to the adults, you aren't competant enough to vote.

Again the insults but that is ok.

How would you know you voted incorrectly, you might have thought you voted correctly come to find out you did not.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Again the insults but that is ok.

How would you know you voted incorrectly, you might have thought you voted correctly come to find out you did not.

It all comes down to paying attention, watching what you're doing, and putting in the effort.

Are the older methods more prone to failure then some of the newer methods? Sure. Does that mean they don't work? No, of course not.

[speeddemon]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Again the insults but that is ok.

How would you know you voted incorrectly, you might have thought you voted correctly come to find out you did not.

How do you know you voted incorrectly? Because the Democrats said so? The punch cards that I have used have holes that line them up. If you put the card in like the directions say, its impossible to screw it up. I would imagine most of them are this way. And the reason the ballots don't say who you voted for is so you can keep your votes private.
Personally I couldn't care one way or the other what happens. I doubt that Davis is the reason for California's problems, and even if he is to blame, he couldn't have done it by himself, so then they need to go ahead and recall the rest of California's congress. Oh wait, they already do that, its called elections.

[Albinonewt]

The appeals court reversed itself.

I am suprised to say the least, but very impressed.

[pbzmag]

Yep, recall is still set for Oct 7. BTW, there are 12 touchscreen voting locations in the Los Angeles County that ANY Los Angeles County resident can use. Voters may vote ballot in choice of -- English, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Spanish, Tagalog, or Vietnamese. You can use them in the Early voting dates from Sept 24-Oct 3.

[Albinonewt]

The debate is tonight!

[Albinonewt]

For whoever didn't see it, the debate was quite entertaining.

Bustamante is a joke. The man has no personality, no plan, and nothing to offer. His only idea is to raise taxes by $8 billion

The green candidate (I've already forgotten his name he's so meaningless) doesn't know anything except that he would tax the rich more. It's all he could say all night.

Huffington is a nothing candidate. Her big complain is George Bush and the war on terror. I don't have any clue what that has to due with California and I don't think she does either.

McClintlock is a perfectly good conservative candidate. He faces two problems though. First, he is completely unelectable. Second, the legislature will fight him tooth and nail just for being conservative.

Arnold was good, not great, but good. He demonstrated some fundamental knowledge, which is important. He had few specifics as to what he would do, but he had some. Arnold came out of this as the #2 guy for the debate, which might be enough to win this thing.