Cocker vs. Mag

[Lemon]

This isn't what you think it is, so read on.

My plans were to build a mag from scratch with a ULE body and a non-classic valve w/LX installed (using these two parts as an example).

I know that the LX bolt accellerates to a mere 15fps so it's really easy on paint as opposed to the classic bolts, but it also runs like 200psi higher than the classic bolt.

When I read that it ran at around 600psi @ 290 fps I was like "err maybe I should go with a cocker", because that could pretty hard on paint and would cause pressure related barrel breaks to increase into the Tippmann range.

But, I dunno what to think cuz I also read that cockers are high-flow low-pressure guns and mags are low-flow mid/high-pressure guns so this is becoming a really confusing battle between the two.

Does the LX bolt cause air to hit the ball at 600psi?

Because the autococker is 'high-flow' does that mean the air hits the ball harder?

"Argh!"
-Peanuts

[Lemon]

Let's say I tuned a cocker down to around 200psi and I had a mag with a minimag valve and an installed/tuned LX bolt.

Which would break more paint (not including chops, so I guess lets say it's and eBladed cocker or something)?

[Dayspring]

Minimum input pressure to the mag- 600psi
Regulated pressure in dump chamber- ~400psi
Pressure the ball ACTUALLY sees? 65psi

[Lemon]

I can't really argue with 4000+ posts (lol) but can anyone vouch for that.

That seems good and all but I am unsure on what that means. What psi would a ball be hit by in 200psi cocker, in comparison?

[Dayspring]

Vouch for it? Anybody at the IAO tech class could. So could anybody that sits around and talks tech with Tom.

[Lemon]

Ok ok!

Sorry for buggin'

What about the pressure in cockers?

[Lemon]

Like how much more likely would a 200psi cocker be to break paint in the barrel than a Level 10 mag using the same barrel and same paint.

[Lemon]

This is really bothering me.
I am debating whether to continue this mag project or go with a cocker or what.

[afrankart]

Put it this way, I have put probably 13 cases through my level 10 and I have not had to clean paint off of my bolt once. Not one time. I have had a few barrel breaks, but that has nothing to do with the level 10.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I can't really argue with 4000+ posts (lol)

hahaha :p

[Lemon]

Alright... mag project continues.

Some pros use barrels that are way bigger than their paint to prevent barrel breaks. Who cares about efficiency?

[Tunaman]

I have about 50000 rounds through one of my Level 10 mags and have yet to chop one single ball. Hard to beleive? I speak the truth. Others can verify the awesomeness of never chopping balls again!:D

[Indi86]

I don't think there are many cockers that operate well below 300psi... maybe a well tuned orracle or similar super cocker, but no others really.

[Lemon]

I don't doubt the chop-free thing in the level 10. I know how that works. It's the air striking the ball that I was worried about.

Then I read this:

Minimum input pressure to the mag- 600psi
Regulated pressure in dump chamber- ~400psi
Pressure the ball ACTUALLY sees? 65psi

Is there a gun that can compare to the pressure hitting the ball in a mag?

Thx guys.

[Lemon]

I think the question I should be asking is what is the fps of the air hitting a ball in a LX mag and what marker compares to it?

(if I corrected myself with another problem, please ignore this post lol)

[Steelrat]

Personally, I think that the air pressure striking the ball causes very few breaks. Primary culprit for ball breaks has been, and will continue to be, the bolt.

Both the cocker and the mag can be modified to pinch (or in the level 10 case, rebound) from paint.

[afrankart]

I don't know, but I could imagine that if you wanted, you could release upwards of 1000 psi directly to the ball in a barrel (if only there was a way) and you would not have any breaks. 99.99999999999% of the time, chops are caused by a solid moving object, not air. Another one I am not completely sure about is the ICE Epic. It doesen't have a bolt to propel the ball, so it uses only air. Since it doesen't have a bolt, I would assume that it exerts a WHOLE LOT more pressure on the ball to accelerate it to 300 fps than any cocker or mag.

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Well, the reason being... Yes, there is as much as 650PSI in the dump chamber.... but you have to consider the fact that that is IN THE DUMP CHAMBER. As the bolt moves forward, the air inside the chamber has to go out over a greater volume, thus, the pressure is lower the further the bolt moves down the breech, until we hit that magic point where the "Tuned power pulse" occours (The point where the air is actually fired against the bolt.

Wow, I almost sounded smart.

But that's accurate. Aaaaaaaaanyway, Any ball breaks I've had so far were due to my barrel being too small for the paint. I mean, I had chuffing problems up the wazoo, and I was like "What the hell."
Took my barrel off... there was paint lodged in there. Tried to push it out... it broke inside. Barrel was simply too tight for the paint.

[Lemon]

Iiiinteresting....

If the only chopping problem is the barrel, I guess I have nothing to worry about cuz i will be using a pro technique; using a .700 bore All American front witha .693 insert in a freak back. Ultimate anti-chopping barrel.

Pros care less about accuracy/efficiency than having a lower chance of a ball breaking in the barrel.

I also read that the LX bolt has rounded edges and only moves at around 15fps when it 'hits' the ball. So ya. MAG PROJECT CONTINUES.

-B.

[PyRo]

The pressure the gun runs at doesn't have much to do with chopping balls to start with anyway. My old pro-carbine almost never chopped :)

[Lemon]

I wasn't talking about chopping balls, that is something else. I was talking about the sudden burst of air cracking the ball in the chamber.

[ZyperioN]

ok well becuase nobody seems to want to answer your question about pressure the balls actually sees:

(this are from memory so give or take a few psi but they are fairly right on)

There was a test on this topic and the results showed:
Matrix~50psi
AUTOMAG~65psi
Impulse~80 psi
Cocker~90psi
Angel~120psi

[ß?µ£ §mµ®ƒ]

Its a Freaking Level 10 dam straight your not gonna break balls, so air pressure dosent really matter all that much sorta, unless your using like really really really really crappy paint such as brass eagle, which relates to only not even pass the 1 bounce test, use a little higher grade paint that wont break from airpressure. Check your barrel for any nicks of kinks, these could cause some breaks in the barrel related to the air pressure

[Lemon]

Right now, my breath smells like I ate a cat turd.

In other news, Lemon can't see why someone would own a marker other than a Matrix or a Mag providing the mag has a LX bolt. He would also be using either Marbs or Evil paint.

However, he is curious if the various valves, E-Mag, MM, RT, etc... have any constructional differences other than quality and materials used for the housing.

[Lemon]

*brushes teeth*

That wasn't what I was wondering...

I was playing on consistency.

Would a preset tank set at 750psi give better consistency than a 1000psi tank?

[afrankart]

With a classic valve, no. With an RT or X-valve, there would be a difference. @ 750 psi, if you shoot slowly, you will be consistant, but if you shoot a fast string, you will have a greater chance of a little velocity dropoff. @1000 psi, slow shots will have less velocity than those in a fast string. I wouldn't say that that is inconsistency, rather a function of the RT/X-valve.

[Lemon]

Run that by me again.

The faster you shoot, the more velocity the shots will have?
Is that a function or a flaw?

Sorry for misunderstanding.

[afrankart]

That is a function. There is more info if you go to www.arigun.com and scroll down to the Proper chrono procedure for RT valve. There is tons of info there.

[AkumA]

*haven't been reading everyones responces...*

on my cocker, i have all high flow parts. while having the inline reg set to somewhere around 300psi. now how much psi does the ball see? it depends. the bolt psi is controled by the LPR. you can have either 55psi to 300psi. so you need to tune it just right, messing around with the reg and the LPR. similar to a matrix.

if you're worried about efficiency, get a cocker. if you don't want to chop balls because your finger is a stupid (short stroking), go with a mag that has a lvl10 installed.

[Lemon]

Nah efficiency is pointless to worry about.

It's moreso a durable, consistant, accurate, and for the most part, problem free (no chops/barrel breaks) marker that I am looking to build.

I couldn't find any info regadring this 'fuction' of the RT valve(s). Could someone explain why the velocity would increase as your ROF goes up?

Thx

[RenagadeOfFunk]

(clears throat) the air heats up im the valve cause the gun is shooting so fast, cool huh, so the hotter the air the faster the shots. I put it simple enough right? when i faster fast, oh and i mean fast, it only goes up abut 15 and nothing higher...not noticable if poeple say you shot hot....just shot once and your back down to 280 fps ;)...now buy my barrel (boomstick);)


BTW your mailbox is full so i can't pm you...im thinking you should empty it...

[Lemon]

It was my SENT ITEMS that was full.

Stupid thing...

Anyways, it appears the season is coming to an end pretty soon. I may halt my project until the spring (building up at christmas of course), and invest in a guitar. Just something I've always wanted to do...

Mags seem to be the ideal marker for the average player and even a tourny player providing you have the right parts on one. I will keep these facts in mind and only invest in something like a trix or speed if a really wicked deal pops up.

This forum will be seeing alot more of me.

Thanks for the conversation guys.

-B.

[ZyperioN]

This forum will be seeing alot more of me.

Oh god:D