A marketing idea for AGD [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 04:23 AM

Originally posted by RogueFactor

I would like that too, but it will never happen for $350. Lets put this in perspective...

ULE Body= $145
Level 10= $70
I-Frame= $110
ULE Rail= Conservative estimate= $50
Parts(Sear, Sear pin, Field strip screw, Trigger Frame screw, Air Hose, Fittings)= Conservative estimate= $30

Total without valve= $405

So, even if they could make the valve for $100, it would still be a $500 marker.

Your thinking is flawed. Those prices are what AGD is charging RETAIL. That isn't what they pay to make them. I'm sure that their physical markup is in the 30% range, possibly more. AGD will continue to lose out unless they make a marker showcasing their new technologies, that costs less that the intermediate electros (ie, Impulse, Shocker, etc). I know that if I was a guy wanting to buy a next-level paintgun, I'm more likely to spend my 500 bucks on a nice, electro, fast Impulse, than add money to it to buy an outdated RTPro. On the other hand, if I could get these cool features (albeit on a non-electro marker) for 150 less, I'm all over that.

Marek

09-27-2003, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by no1beefcake
AGD will continue to lose out unless they make a marker showcasing their new technologies, that costs less that the intermediate electros (ie, Impulse, Shocker, etc). I know that if I was a guy wanting to buy a next-level paintgun, I'm more likely to spend my 500 bucks on a nice, electro, fast Impulse, than add money to it to buy an outdated RTPro. On the other hand, if I could get these cool features (albeit on a non-electro marker) for 150 less, I'm all over that.

Outdated RTPro? Wow, that's new to me. Doesn't it use the same valve technology that the X-Mags use? You know, the top of the line electro for AGD? Oh, so it's outdated cuz it's a mech gun? WGP should stop making Orracles and Black Magiks, since they are not electros either and outdated. Because, to be in date, people must use electros right?

Sorry man, but I would pick an RTP over an Impy any day. Am I the average consumer? No, far from it unfortunately. Then again, I don't actually believe that the A4 shoots 30 bps either. I am more educated than that.

shartley

09-27-2003, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Marek
Outdated RTPro? Wow, that's new to me. Doesn't it use the same valve technology that the X-Mags use? You know, the top of the line electro for AGD? Oh, so it's outdated cuz it's a mech gun? WGP should stop making Orracles and Black Magiks, since they are not electros either and outdated. Because, to be in date, people must use electros right?

Sorry man, but I would pick an RTP over an Impy any day. Am I the average consumer? No, far from it unfortunately. Then again, I don't actually believe that the A4 shoots 30 bps either. I am more educated than that.
And I will add that the RTPro is in my opinion the best manual marker available. It is truly not outdated simply because it isn’t “electric”. I love my RTP just as much today as when I first used it.

I think because it is a manual and that it is not “pushed” like other products folks get the impression it is outdated… but this is a wrong impression. I would love nothing more than to see a big push in marketing for these markers…. but I have said that for years. Maybe now is the time? ;)

There are some nice cosmetic upgrades for the AGD markers now, and ones I am thinking of taking advantage of. I know that these will not increase the performance of my marker, but I think the looks will change people’s minds about it. I think that is what has put a stigma on it at this point… the LOOKS have not changed with the times (for the most part). And that is what gives people their first impressions.

Honestly, I have not run into someone who has tried my marker that didn’t like it, or at least give it its due… or props. Some folks may not like the feel of the trigger as much as another trigger, but that really is a personal preference, not an indication of a “bad” or “outdated” marker. I personally love the snappy feel of my RTP…

Added: I just wish the price was lower… it is hard to convince the average consumer to pay as much if not more for a manual marker than they have to for a good portion of the electric markers. :(

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Marek

Outdated RTPro? Wow, that's new to me. Doesn't it use the same valve technology that the X-Mags use? You know, the top of the line electro for AGD? Oh, so it's outdated cuz it's a mech gun? WGP should stop making Orracles and Black Magiks, since they are not electros either and outdated. Because, to be in date, people must use electros right?

Sorry man, but I would pick an RTP over an Impy any day. Am I the average consumer? No, far from it unfortunately. Then again, I don't actually believe that the A4 shoots 30 bps either. I am more educated than that.

Yeah, we all know how "AGD guys think differently" and blah blah blah. I agree that the RTPro is extremely nice, and functional, and very well built. What I'm telling you is, it is a design that's over 10 years old, that hasn't been updated, and that is overpriced. I mean, there are very few mechanical markers out there in that price range, unless you check out Palmer's Pursuit Shop, and even then cheaper markers can be had. Also, say you're a fellow (the same guy) and you know know that the RTPro will function at a level equal to the best mechanical autocockers, and you go to the showroom with $800 to spend on the kick *** mechanical marker of your dreams, and on the wall you see this:http://www.armyoforr.com/images/Autocockers/Black%20Magic/RedMagic.jpg
and this (which has looked the same for years, functioned the same for years, and has probably been sitting on the wall for years, because most shops don't have a great feel for selling AGD):
http://store.airgun.com/agdprod/images/markers/rtpro_warp_lg.jpg

Which do YOU think he'd buy? My money rests with the Black Magic, and indeed, history is on my side. So yes, there is a market for a $750 mechanical, but it's increasingly narrow, and should be a price range reserved for the most custom, newest, greatest markers, not a 10 year old design with a couple of touch ups. (yes, I know the autococker's design has been around for a whle too, but the new Black Magic hardly resembles the older cockers)

Keep in mind that I own an Automag, and an Apple computer, so I know about the capital underdogs; I would just like to see them takes some steps that would move them back into the upper echelon of paintgun manufacturers.

Nick O time

09-27-2003, 10:58 AM

i would have to buy the magbecause of it's simplicity and i think it looks hella nice. that isnt even a BM its a BM LE:rolleyes: . And that is an old pic of the RTP because it now comes with XValve as stated before and also it will be coming with a ULE body and JandJ barrel(i think thats right) which has also been stated before.

abaez

09-27-2003, 11:00 AM

$800 is agds retail price you can get it for 538 and actionvillage.

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Nick O time
i would have to buy the magbecause of it's simplicity and i think it looks hella nice. that isnt even a BM its a BM LE:rolleyes: . And that is an old pic of the RTP because it now comes with XValve as stated before and also it will be coming with a ULE body and JandJ barrel(i think thats right) which has also been stated before.

The X-valve changes its looks about....nada, and the ULE bodies and J&J barrels aren't on the RTPro in MY local store, don't know about your's. :rolleyes:

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by abaez
$800 is agds retail price you can get it for 538 and actionvillage.

My local shop sells stuff around list, so that doesn't apply here.

personman

09-27-2003, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

Yeah, we all know how "AGD guys think differently" and blah blah blah. I agree that the RTPro is extremely nice, and functional, and very well built. What I'm telling you is, it is a design that's over 10 years old, that hasn't been updated, and that is overpriced.

So yes, there is a market for a $750 mechanical, but it's increasingly narrow, and should be a price range reserved for the most custom, newest, greatest markers, not a 10 year old design with a couple of touch ups. (yes, I know the autococker's design has been around for a whle too, but the new Black Magic hardly resembles the older cockers)
Um, excuse me, the ReTro design isnt over 10 years old. The retro came out in 1996 which is 7 years ago. Also, whats this about mags never being updated? Um, do you know what the 'levels are on a mag? Ever heard of level 10? That is not a minor upgrade. It probally is alot better than some of those silly upgrades for a cocker. The ULT is also a major upgrade. You say you realise the cocker design is even older than the ReTro. THEN WHY ARE YOU RIPPING ON THE RT PRO? The black magic cocker still functions like a cocker. And it is the same design. RT Pros are about 600, and already come with the xvalve and the intelliframe. When they come with the ULE body (which will be very soon) then they will be the best buy IMO for ~600-650. You can take your silly cocker but I will take my retromag which is faster, more reliable, and looks better IMO.

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by RogueFactor
You are missing the boat beefcake. Not only is what you are asking for unrealistic, its impossible in an American-made product of the caliber of AGD's markers.

Go and do the research, the prices I have listed for those parts are standard retail, what the shops sell for...not AGD RETAIL.

As of right now, there isnt a single place I know of, shop or online store, that sells the ULE body for less than $145.

Here is AGD Store RETAIL:

Level 10: $85
I-Frame: $115
Parts: Sear: $15 Sear, Pin: $3, Field Strip Screw $8, Trigger Frame Screw: $1, SS Air Hose: $11, Female QD: $14, Male QD: $8, 90* Fitting-Unknown)-- $60
ULE Body: $145
ULE Rail: Doesnt exist. Standard Rail is $40 in the store. So an ULE rail will conservatively estimated in the AGD store will be $60.

Total for AGD RETAIL before Valve: $465.

Yep, and then you have the shops mark-up. You still wont get a $350 AGD marker with all the best technology.

AGD's store doesn't sell their products any cheaper than regular shops. All their doing is getting paid retail for what shops are paying whole sale. AGD's store has the same retail price as other pb shops.

Here is where your thinking is flawed. You arent going to get all the new technologies in an American-made product for $350.

I sure would like a Rolls Royce, hand made with all the best materials and newest technologies for the median price of standard 4-door sedan, but it just isnt going to happen.

That's where I disagree. I don't think that comparison is valid at all. I think what we're seeing is more like Ford vs. Chevy. If one of them kept the same body style for 15 years, and the other kept progressing in style and function, and then they were sold at the same price. I don't think that the RTPro could EVER be called the "Rolls Royce" of painguns. They're more like a utilitarian 1991 F-150, being sold at the same price (or higher!) than a new 2004 Chevy Z-71.

madmatt151

09-27-2003, 11:35 AM

I agree with this logic a bit, flash does sell. Most people who are cominginto the sport are going to want an electro, even if it is a Spyder. When they stay around a while and realize that they need or want a higher end marker, they will probably listen to those around them and lok at the nicest looking marker. I love my RT mag and all the mags I have had, but new people will buy what they are being told is the best, and more people are telling them that Mags are NOT the best. Based on looks alone, the cockers and such are better looking to a newer person. WE like the looks of the mags because we like mags. I think AGD should rethink those sight rails and such on the RT Pro and that foregrip. It looks almost tactical to a new person, whereas the BMs look wild and crazy. This is the flash that is attracting people.

Correct me if I am wrong, but youcan't get the RT Pros in any ther colors right? Except for the ULE bodies? But the other parts will still be black and nickel. Not too many choices. Another bad selling point.

Originally posted by no1beefcake

Yeah, we all know how "AGD guys think differently" and blah blah blah. I agree that the RTPro is extremely nice, and functional, and very well built. What I'm telling you is, it is a design that's over 10 years old, that hasn't been updated, and that is overpriced. I mean, there are very few mechanical markers out there in that price range, unless you check out Palmer's Pursuit Shop, and even then cheaper markers can be had. Also, say you're a fellow (the same guy) and you know know that the RTPro will function at a level equal to the best mechanical autocockers, and you go to the showroom with $800 to spend on the kick *** mechanical marker of your dreams, and on the wall you see this:http://www.armyoforr.com/images/Autocockers/Black%20Magic/RedMagic.jpg
and this (which has looked the same for years, functioned the same for years, and has probably been sitting on the wall for years, because most shops don't have a great feel for selling AGD):
http://store.airgun.com/agdprod/images/markers/rtpro_warp_lg.jpg

Which do YOU think he'd buy? My money rests with the Black Magic, and indeed, history is on my side. So yes, there is a market for a $750 mechanical, but it's increasingly narrow, and should be a price range reserved for the most custom, newest, greatest markers, not a 10 year old design with a couple of touch ups. (yes, I know the autococker's design has been around for a whle too, but the new Black Magic hardly resembles the older cockers)

Keep in mind that I own an Automag, and an Apple computer, so I know about the capital underdogs; I would just like to see them takes some steps that would move them back into the upper echelon of paintgun manufacturers.

Marek

09-27-2003, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by no1beefcake
The X-valve changes its looks about....nada, and the ULE bodies and J&J barrels aren't on the RTPro in MY local store, don't know about your's. :rolleyes:

Sorry buddy, I don't know any stores in Austin that carry RTPs. Constant Action is a joke, Pettys (which is not even in Austin) doesn't have any on his shelf, and Pball Mart has some sparce mag stuff, but not RTPs. They are barely starting to respect mag stuff now, even though they still think that AO ppl are cult members. (Which is arguable of course, but off the topic) Let alone, having the new RTPs that are just coming out.

I just got myself a new RTP with an X-Valve, and ULE body, and J&J barrel and yeah I would pick that over a Black Magik.

afrankart

09-27-2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

I think what we're seeing is more like Ford vs. Chevy. If one of them kept the same body style for 15 years, and the other kept progressing in style and function, and then they were sold at the same price.

Tell me if you would then, how a cocker has progressed in function? As I recall, They were originally pumps, and were converted to cock themselves for semiautomatic operation. Has this changed one bit?

madmatt151

09-27-2003, 12:01 PM

Well, if you are gonna make the comparison to Auto manufacturers, lets look at the "pony" cars from Chevy and Ford. Chevy has kept the same design for years, barely updates it, just the body. Ford however has updated the body and chassis, suspension etc. To save a long explanantion et's just look and see who has a car still around? Ford mustang. I was a loyal Camaro owner and put up with a lot of things because I liked them. But more and mre people bought Mustangs. Now there is no more Camaro/Firebird, and the mustang still sells well. GM would never budge on some complaints and suggestions, and now there is no more of the F bodies. SO the comparison is valid and I think may show a trend in any specialty market. Let's be real, a sports car and a paintball marker and specialty items, not necessities. Therefore, biases, opionions, heresay and ideas will come into play and affect sales. This is why the better product will NOT always win out. Chevy had a better engine, but the "other" things were not satisfying customers and that is also whatkept NEW customers from buying them. Each company Ford, Chevy, WGP and AGD have a loyal "base" of customers that will buy the product even if it was junk. But the key to success is getting new customers. This is where many companies fail. Just my long-winded $.02!

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Marek

Sorry buddy, I don't know any stores in Austin that carry RTPs. Constant Action is a joke, Pettys (which is not even in Austin) doesn't have any on his shelf, and Pball Mart has some sparce mag stuff, but not RTPs. They are barely starting to respect mag stuff now, even though they still think that AO ppl are cult members. (Which is arguable of course, but off the topic) Let alone, having the new RTPs that are just coming out.

I just got myself a new RTP with an X-Valve, and ULE body, and J&J barrel and yeah I would pick that over a Black Magik.

Ok, let's change local shop to "EVERY SHOP I'VE EVER SEEN." I've only lived in ATX for a little over a year. Also, you help make my point: nobody is carrying Mag stuff because it doesn't freaking sell!!!

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by RogueFactor

Youre right, AGD doesnt sell them cheaper---they arent supposed to. Manufactueres dont attempt to compete with their dealers. Its common pratice not to.

But you suggested that my original prices were AGD retail. You were incorrect.
My point still stands that the prices you were adding up were individual retail prices for pieces of the puzzle. Again, for an automotive analogy, it would cost you thousands of dollars more to buy a car piece by piece from your dealer, and assemble it yourself. AGD has been finished with the R&D of the Automag for a long time, and need to find a way to get the 'Mag out, in a complete package, for a reasonable price.

Please make this analogy to current markers....

Which one kept the same body style for 15 years?
Which *other* marker kept progressing?(in style & function)

Well, if I'm not mistaken, the Classic 'Mag has remained almost the EXaCT same since it's introduction in the very early 90s (1991?). There has been a slight update/change to the autocockers, as well as multiple colors/intermediate models, almost every year since they've been around (again since the early/mid 90s)

It has been stated that there have beeon only 2 companies in this industry that make markers and are still around from the beginning(15 years approximately). So I would like to hear who you think has been around as long as AGD and has done what you say.

I never said that there have only been 2 companies that made markers in the beginning and are still around. Maybe you should re-read my posts. And by "done what I say," what exactly do you mean?

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by afrankart

Tell me if you would then, how a cocker has progressed in function? As I recall, They were originally pumps, and were converted to cock themselves for semiautomatic operation. Has this changed one bit?

Well, of course their basic operation has remained the same, but there has been gradual and steady progress over their lifespan that makes the 'Cockers more reliable, perform to a higher level, and look much better. There has been none of that with the 'Mags.

personman

09-27-2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake
There has been none of that with the 'Mags.
HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AH AH AH HA
LMAO ROFL!!!!!

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by personman

HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AH AH AH HA
LMAO ROFL!!!!!

Alright wise guy, show me how this is different than it was 5 or 6 years ago:
http://store.airgun.com/agdprod/images/markers/classic_std_lg.jpg

afrankart

09-27-2003, 12:21 PM

I guess the ULE, X-valve, Y-grip, and the up and coming AGD rail don't do anything for the appearance of their markers.:rolleyes: I also guess that the ULT and the level 10 don't do anything for Mag's performance either.:rolleyes: I have had plenty of experience with both cockers and mags, I have never known 1 cocker to be more reliable than ANY mag. Also, while you're on a roll, tell me how a mechanical cocker fully tricked out performs any better than a fully tricked mechanical mag. If you can...:rolleyes:

personman

09-27-2003, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

Alright wise guy, show me how this is different than it was 5 or 6 years ago:
http://store.airgun.com/agdprod/images/markers/classic_std_lg.jpg
The only thing that is the same is the shape and the rail bro

afrankart

09-27-2003, 12:25 PM

Oh, by the way, I had a cocker and a mag at the same time for about a year. Guess which one I still have, and play with every weekend WITHOUT any reliability problems. For a hint, check my sig. Also, I think it is slightly unfair to compare a Black magic LE to a standard feed classic. You could buy like 3 classics for the price of that black magic.

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by afrankart
I guess the ULE, X-valve, Y-grip, and the up and coming AGD rail don't do anything for the appearance of their markers.:rolleyes: I also guess that the ULT and the level 10 don't do anything for Mag's performance either.:rolleyes: I have had plenty of experience with both cockers and mags, I have never known 1 cocker to be more reliable than ANY mag. Also, while you're on a roll, tell me how a mechanical cocker fully tricked out performs any better than a fully tricked mechanical mag. If you can...:rolleyes:

Show me a stock 'Mag that can be had with all of those options you mentioned!:rolleyes: Also, the level 10 is great, but by the time you buy a stock 'Mag, and stick one of those on it, you have a $350 gun that looks the same as it has for 10 years, and that still can't even be fired, because it doesn't have a frickin' barrel.

Also, before you start rolling your eyes, read the other posts in the thread. Nobody ever said that 'Cockers outperformed, or were any more reliable than the Automag. That isn't even the discussion. We're talking about ways AGD can improve its marketing, to try and compete with Kingman, Tippmann, WGP, and the like for new customers. :rolleyes:

As far as performance, the only thing that a tricked out 'Cocker has on a tricked out 'Mag is looks, and possibly efficiency.

Marek

09-27-2003, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake
Ok, let's change local shop to "EVERY SHOP I'VE EVER SEEN." I've only lived in ATX for a little over a year. Also, you help make my point: nobody is carrying Mag stuff because it doesn't freaking sell!!!

You should go out more often then. So, on your basis, spyders are the best guns out there, cuz I've seen them at every store. Wait, Wal-Mart has BE, so Kingman and BE are the great marker makers that Roguefactor was talking about. :rolleyes: These guns sell a hell of a lot more guns than Mags or Cockers.

My original post, which was in reference to your original post, was asking how the rt valve is outdated. You have not answered the question, but rather, give an opinion about how the Black Magik looks cooler and blah blah blah. If the valve is "outdated" then why do they use it on the X-Mag? Even then, with Lvl 10 and the ULT, the basic design has changed from its original design. Not everything in this sport has to be about looks or hype.

If you were to put a new RTP and an Orracle next to each other, and ask a completely unbiased stranger, my guess would be that the person would go for the Orracle. That is not in question. Yea, it does look better. But, to say that the RTP couldn't "keep up" or surpass the Orracle is off.

afrankart

09-27-2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

'Cockers more reliable, perform to a higher level, and look much better. There has been none of that with the 'Mags.

Before you criticize me for not reading this thread, how about you read what YOU posted.

Bonez

09-27-2003, 12:41 PM

Thank you all for the continuation of the open discussion on this.

From what I've heard so far there is a great deal of pride in owning an Automag, and I feel it owning one myself.

But in helping AGD grow in sales, we help them get more money for R&D and that leads to new inventions like the Level 10 and the ULE's.

I think I'd feel even better if something we did help the company grow, such as offering suggestions on new marketing ideas and discussing them openly and fairly on Automags.org.

But hey, that's just me.

-Hal

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by afrankart

Before you criticize me for not reading this thread, how about you read what YOU posted.

Yay, let's take a quote out of context, jackass. I stated that WGP has upgraded their base 'Cocker over the years gradually to improve it in these areas. I never compared their reliablity to that of a 'Mag, although in my experience, it's certainly comparable.

afrankart

09-27-2003, 12:48 PM

Alright, I do have alot of pride in being one of the very few people I have seen play with a mag. The only improvement that I can think of would be one for efficiency. I don't mind the efficiency I get, but it could be improved upon. IMHO, my mag is PERFECT for me.

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Marek

You should go out more often then. So, on your basis, spyders are the best guns out there, cuz I've seen them at every store. Wait, Wal-Mart has BE, so Kingman and BE are the great marker makers that Roguefactor was talking about. :rolleyes: These guns sell a hell of a lot more guns than Mags or Cockers.

Nobody ever questioned what was "the best gun out there," and if you would pay attention, this thread is about marketing, not overall sales. First off, you have to realize that Kingman isn't AGD's main competition; WGP is.

My original post, which was in reference to your original post, was asking how the rt valve is outdated. You have not answered the question, but rather, give an opinion about how the Black Magik looks cooler and blah blah blah. If the valve is "outdated" then why do they use it on the X-Mag? Even then, with Lvl 10 and the ULT, the basic design has changed from its original design. Not everything in this sport has to be about looks or hype.
I think you're still missing the point. I wasn't commenting that the actual mechanical aspects of the marker were out of date. They are, however, overpriced. Also, the ULT and Lvl 10 are recent additions that are only included in the upper level mechanical RTPro, that is, like it or not, in a price range that competes with some VERY nice electro guns, while AGD's own electro is in the upper stratosphere of that market, too.

If you were to put a new RTP and an Orracle next to each other, and ask a completely unbiased stranger, my guess would be that the person would go for the Orracle. That is not in question. Yea, it does look better. But, to say that the RTP couldn't "keep up" or surpass the Orracle is off.

I never said that the RTPro couldn't keep up with the Orracle (or Black Magic, or whatever), but with similar function and similar pricing, the 'Mag is going to have to do SOMETHING to make it the go-to product, and refusing to update the aesthetics of its marker isn't going to do it.

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by personman

The only thing that is the same is the shape and the rail bro

The gun is almost exactly the same (in classic form, from a shop) as it has been for years, with maybe a slight change in the engraving on the AIR valve. Yes, the picture you posted is a nice, customized 'Mag, but you can't buy that in the store, except piece by piece.

Marek

09-27-2003, 01:26 PM

First you say this.

I'm more likely to spend my 500 bucks on a nice, electro, fast Impulse, than add money to it to buy an outdated RTPro

Say overpriced then. Saying that it is out of date is far from the truth.

Then you say this.

Ok, let's change local shop to "EVERY SHOP I'VE EVER SEEN."

Then don't claim that they have RTPs at your local shop. And, in the previous post, you said that the RTPs at your local store didn't have an X-Valve, and a ULE body, etc. and now they don't even sell those things? Make up your mind.

These are just 2 examples that were directed to me about inconsistencies on your posts. If you have a point, it's being lost to me, and it seems others because your just grasping at straws. But fine, I will amuse you, since you are doing that to me.

So what that the design of the gun hasn't changed? Do you really need a new body every year to feel satisfied? Why, because the rest of the sport does this? So somehow this makes it better? It is barely starting to happen that new bodies and rails are being made for the mag, to help with the aesthetic side of the Mag. Does this help performance in any way? Nope, and most would hope that is the point of getting upgrades. But, we know that is not true in this sport.

Other companies are slowly moving over to making mag stuff and hopefully in time the number of companies will increase. WGP does not make all the aesthetic upgrades for a cocker, and why should we expect the same from AGD?

RenagadeOfFunk

09-27-2003, 01:28 PM

...i think the whole mechanical x-valve, ule everything, and new barrel would sell...it would relieve people from buying mechanical MaGs and looking around for things...then they scould just pay and get it over with...i have my gun uled and stuff like that...i wish that it came in a pakage though :rolleyes: now i had to sell all my left over parts...

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Marek
First you say this.

Say overpriced then. Saying that it is out of date is far from the truth.

Then you say this.

Then don't claim that they have RTPs at your local shop. And, in the previous post, you said that the RTPs at your local store didn't have an X-Valve, and a ULE body, etc. and now they don't even sell those things? Make up your mind.

These are just 2 examples that were directed to me about inconsistencies on your posts. If you have a point, it's being lost to me, and it seems others because your just grasping at straws. But fine, I will amuse you, since you are doing that to me.

So what that the design of the gun hasn't changed? Do you really need a new body every year to feel satisfied? Why, because the rest of the sport does this? So somehow this makes it better? It is barely starting to happen that new bodies and rails are being made for the mag, to help with the aesthetic side of the Mag. Does this help performance in any way? Nope, and most would hope that is the point of getting upgrades. But, we know that is not true in this sport.

Other companies are slowly moving over to making mag stuff and hopefully in time the number of companies will increase. WGP does not make all the aesthetic upgrades for a cocker, and why should we expect the same from AGD?

First of all, let's make this a little less personal. We're talking about ways AGD can improve its marketing, and yes, a new standard, stock body every decade or so would definitely help.

Secondly, to get one thing out of the way, Here is my primary Marker:
http://www.no1beefcake.com/images/automag4.jpg
Yes, it is an old school, 10 pound chunk of stainless steel that isn't horribly accurate, or horribly fast, or horribly good looking, but I love it, and it doesn't break. The quality of AGD's products haven't been in question. To me, however, their lower end markers are just not competing in their demographic, and in order to be a successful company, you must have a bread-and-butter base product to sell a good quantity. Your sales chart should pyramid, with the most sales going to your cheapest marker, and tapering off with your most expensive.

Also, in paintball, we know that aethetics do, in fact, matter greatly. From the military styled Tippmanns to the racy Angels, all of the markers on the shelf appeal to a different type. I think AGDs goal should be to appeal to every level of consumer, from beginner, to intermediate, to pro.

Until AGD makes a base level, updated marker to replace the Classic 68, they're going to be disappointed with their sales. That is just the way it is. All arguments aside, I think that the past will show that innovation should start at the top, and filter down to the lower products. It doesn't cost AGD much (if any) more to put a Level 10 on a Classic Mag, instead of the current. And hell, why not make a stock barrel that is included, and that isn't horrible? Tippmann does it, WGP does it, why not AGD? I know it HAS to cost less to make the ULE body than the old SS honkers, so throw those on as well.

The company shouldn't have to rely on a $700 or $1300 paintgun to keep them afloat in the market, because the average paintballer isn't going to pass up all the GREAT markers in the 300-500 dollar range to get there. AGD enthusiasts? Yes. A guy looking for the best value for his hard earned dollar? No.

Marek

09-27-2003, 02:00 PM

I think that the way things are progressing is slow, but at least progressing forward. New rails, new bodies, new improvements on performance will slowly (we all hope at least) move AGD from this bad image.

I believe they are phasing out the SS bodies in favor of the ULE ones. New milled Sluggos are being made from other companies as well, which is always a plus. I even recall hearing that KAPP wanted to try out a Sluggo. That would help improve the image of the mag. If there are more aesthetic upgrades for the mag from other companies, hopefully ppl will take notice. Yes, right now the classic 68 is the base model for AGD from way back when, but I don't think that is the plan for much longer. With the new low end rail and and a ULE, that would make for a nice looking base model gun.

Now, if we could just work on the ugly box that these guns come in, we are set. :D

no1beefcake

09-27-2003, 02:10 PM

Honestly, I think the slug bodies are sexy, but I don't think they'll ever catch on beyond the Automag faithful, because of their price. At $150 for a blank, you can buy a Tippmann 98 and have change for that!

I think a barrel is a big deal too, especially for a beginner. Spending a couple hundred on a marker that you can't test fire when you get home isn't appealing. Hell, why not just throw a Crown Point in with the package?

afrankart

09-27-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

Yay, let's take a quote out of context, jackass. I stated that WGP has upgraded their base 'Cocker over the years gradually to improve it in these areas. I never compared their reliablity to that of a 'Mag, although in my experience, it's certainly comparable.

I am sorry about misreading your post. I was not intentionally trying to take anything you said out of context. I however, am not sorry that you feel so insecure in your opinions that you are reduced to getting upset and using elementary level name calling to convey your opinions.

Marek

09-27-2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake
Honestly, I think the slug bodies are sexy, but I don't think they'll ever catch on beyond the Automag faithful, because of their price. At $150 for a blank, you can buy a Tippmann 98 and have change for that!

I think a barrel is a big deal too, especially for a beginner. Spending a couple hundred on a marker that you can't test fire when you get home isn't appealing. Hell, why not just throw a Crown Point in with the package?

True, but then again ppl do buy Autococker bodies for similar prices. I like the Slugs that are already machined, like the chord body rather than the ones where you have to machine yourself.

I wonder why they have barrels on minimags, but not on classics. Strange.

TheGreyMage

09-27-2003, 11:46 PM

most of you children missed the point completly and those of you who didnt should have stopped argueing. first of all the gun could easily be sold for 350 with a ule body leval 10 classic valve and level 10. you get a break in price when you buy things bundled together. agd should include a barrel with their gun, like a j&j, even just a ceramic if they want to cut costs. its a great cheap barrel, and then you will have a complete gun wich sells for 350, not something that you have to peice together.

and rogue factor, only your first four bodies qualify for the arguement as they are the ones offered with the classic valve, the minimag level 7 is the same as the classic, and the level 7 has been around for quite some time, at least 7 or 8 years, i am not sure on the date. as is the foamiless bolt, as well as the grip frames on thier respected markers. it is a dated design that has been unchanged for a long time. this is truth, not a personal attack on you becuase you own one, or an opinion. 7 years is a very long time in a sport like paintball.

no1beefcake

09-28-2003, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by Marek

True, but then again ppl do buy Autococker bodies for similar prices. I like the Slugs that are already machined, like the chord body rather than the ones where you have to machine yourself.

I wonder why they have barrels on minimags, but not on classics. Strange.

If you get the already machined bodies, then you're talking in the multi-hundreds of dollars. The blank being $150 bucks and ugly is bad enough, IMHO.

no1beefcake

09-28-2003, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by RogueFactor

First, lets show where you are mistaken, and where AGD has progressed over the last 15 years in style and fucntion...

Bodies:
1) SS Classic Feed Body
2) SS Automag Powerfeed body
3) SS MiniMag Powerfeed body
4) SS Minimag Centerfeed Body
5) SS Classic RT Body
6) SS RT Pro/E-mag Body
7) SS Hi-Rise Centerfeed RT Pro/E-mag Body
8) No-Rise SS RT Pro E-mag Body
9) Shockteck SFL Body
11) Pro-Team Aluminum Body
12) Aluminum Sluggo Body
13) ULE Vert Feed Body
14) ULE Warp Feed Body
15) X-Mag Non CNC body
16) XMag CNC Body

These do not even include The Festus Body, Extreme Depot Body, PBX Body, Nicad Body, or the IT Body.

Valves:
1) Automag Classic Valve Levels 1-7
2) MiniMag Classic Valve Levels 7
3) Classic RT Valve
4) Emag/RT Pro/RT Valve
5) XValve

Trigger Frames:
1) Metal Single Trigger
2) Carbon Fiber Single Trigger
3) Z-Grip Double Trigger
4) E-mag Hybrid Electronic/Mechanical
4) Intelliframe Double Trigger
5) Y-Grip Double Trigger

Bolts:
1) SS Long Nose
2) SS Short Nose
3) Foamie Bolt
4) SuperBolt 1
5) SuperBolt 2
6) Level 10

Rails
1) Automag/MiniMag Classic Rail
2) Classic RT Gas-thru rail
3) RT Pro Rail
4) E-mag Rail
5) E-mag ULE Rail
6) Soon to be released Automag/MiniMag ULE rail

Need I continue...?

I never said you said that. I said "It has been said". Maybe you should re-read my posts.

Again, you're wrong. Only two bodies, and one valve have been offered on a stock 'Mag from AGD. The rest will fit, yes, but you'd have to buy them separately, which would get expensive quickly., We aren't talking about what could fit on a 'Mag, we're talking about what sells on a stock 'Mag. Almost NONE of the things you listed have ever been offered on the base Automag.

afrankart

09-28-2003, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

Again, you're wrong. Only two bodies, and one valve have been offered on a stock 'Mag from AGD. The rest will fit, yes, but you'd have to buy them separately, which would get expensive quickly., We aren't talking about what could fit on a 'Mag, we're talking about what sells on a stock 'Mag. Almost NONE of the things you listed have ever been offered on the base Automag.

I didn't think we were talking about mags from the past, I thought we were trying to come up with a new marketing strategy for AGD- I.E. a new entry level marker with a gew of their cosmetic upgrades. I am sick of the argueing, I wish I hadn't taken part of it earlier, and the subject of how much the classic has changed in the last xx years is becoming moot.

Oh, and Roguefactor, don't forget about the ULE e-mag triggerframe.

Marek

09-28-2003, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by no1beefcake
If you get the already machined bodies, then you're talking in the multi-hundreds of dollars. The blank being $150 bucks and ugly is bad enough, IMHO.

Ppl buy new bodies all the time for cockers. This is nothing new. They pay multi-hundreds of dollars for milling or less weight or whatever. This is nothing new. If Kapp made a body for mags, and then Dye took notice, maybe there would be more cosmetic upgrades for the mag. Am I saying this is going to happen? Don't know, but that would sure be nice if it did.

xatle

09-28-2003, 07:34 AM

looks to me like the bottom end stock classic is about to get a pretty serious makeover anyways, why else would TK be asking for opinions on cosmetics for a low end rail?
agd will probably continue to phase out twist lock barrels with the success of the c&c and ule bodies, that means we can expect the next incarnation of the basic stock mag to have an unpolished black anodized ule body.
intelliframes require to much milling so the carbon fiber frames will probably survive to the next generation, but perhaps it will be a two finger trigger version with an aluminum blade trigger and a spot to mount a microswitch.
the valve is a problem, its a good idea not to alienate your consumers who still use co2 so the current rt style reg isnt the ticket, but the ult is a piece of tech that shouldnt be left out so just makeing a classic valve out of aluminum isnt the best plan either, we'll have to wait and see what the r&d folks come up with for that.
lvl 10's, an improved stock barrel, verticle bottle adapters, and all the bodies will be verticle feed.
sell the whole package for a little more than $300 and you have competitive low end mag again, hows that sound?

thei3ug

09-28-2003, 10:41 AM

you know, beefcake posted this on another message board, and being something of a fringe member of the AO cult I decided finally to click it and read how he "picked a fight" for the heck of it and got attacked by the so-called agd cult.

and you wanna know something? It's sick, because he brings up some real valid points, something I'd NEVER admit to on the other board I see him on ;), and a lot of you turned it into a shouting match, or started playing with semantics to twist his point around. Real professional. Real intelligent.

I thought the "cult" tag was an inside joke, now I understand. People believe it, and this thread is an example why.

LittlePaintballBoy

09-28-2003, 11:42 AM

Because we... like our guns and stand by AGD? Go to impulse owners and say "Impulses suck they never been changed" I know Imps have been greatly changed, but mags have been changed just as much. Or go to Intimidator owners and say "Timmies suck, they've never been changed" Actually, that's more true than you think, all that has really changed on them is milling and a gripframe or two. (No disrespect intended to either gun owners) But everyone bys timmies. Why? Because it's fast and has cool milling. Sure, they're CAPABLE of 25 bps, but has anyone ever gotten one that fast on semi-auto? Even with bounce? The WAS board is very fast, not too much can make it faster, but if your fingers aren't that fast whats the point? I have seen people RIP with Vikings And Timmies with WAS boards, but not at over 20 BPS or so. So, why haven't Mags changed alot? I think it is because there isn't anything more you can do to them. Same with Timmies and Vikings. Ther just is not enough room for real improvement.

Connor

Marek

09-28-2003, 12:23 PM

And which point that he was trying to make had merit? I don't no about anyone else, but the reason I brought anything up was the fact that the rt valve was "outdated." I'm sorry, but there is no proof of that statement, and when I brought it up again, lets not make it personal.

Stick by your words and back them up, or don't say anything at all.

Koosh

09-28-2003, 12:48 PM

What most people are forgetting is that right now most guns are probably sold to people without knowledge of AO or paintball on the internet... so what sells them? LOCAL DEALORS!

And 9 times out of 10, the local pro shop will add the parts necessary (A barrel and a bottomline) to make it a complete gun...

What AGD can do to help sell more higher end classic valves would be to add a drop down menu system on the website... Like it gives you options for what valve, rail, body, gripframe, optional barrels, and air lines and with ULT or LX, uninstalled... having to install all those probably wouldn't make it worth while.

But thats just my idea, I'll leave the GOOD ideas to people that actually know what they are talking about... and suprisingly there haven't been as many as there should be in this thread...

thei3ug

09-28-2003, 01:46 PM

we're going to play the logic game now? Everyone take a post personally and say "Well, since I didn't say x, no one else did either?"

I'm judging you (not us, not in this one, I'm not having a part in it at all) as a community. And I'm going to repeat myself, this thread is rediculous.

Frederic

09-28-2003, 02:24 PM

For those not uber-loyal to AGD, i.e.: the average consumer, the price for number of upgrades you want for a gun can really add up. When I was debating between an emag and a viking, the emag required me to separately buy a lvl x and install it properly. Not to mention getting a right feed gun to use all of my already existing mag barrels or shelling out a significant sum to get vertical feed and use cocker barrels.

In the end, the viking was cheaper (than the stock emag alone) and less hassle since it was ready to go, and it won out.

No1BeefCake's point as I see it is that if AGD made their guns with what the average tourney-level consumer would want and made it competitively priced (ie: not need to shell out $230 more for LVLX and ULE body), more people would be swayed over in the rather competitive market.

Sure, when you say this in the Church of the Mag, it's blasphemy. But when you say this in the market place, it's just common (not to mention good business) sense.

Grasshopper

09-28-2003, 04:40 PM

I think that AGD should try to add some "flash" to their guns/website. Look at the difference between the Black Magik picture, and the RT Pro picture. The RT has a white background with an orange circle. Then, take a look at the BM. It's flashy, looks cool, and that's what makes it sell (not that alone, but it's a factor). Many, many, many of the people that are wanting to buy a gun, want it to look "cool".

If AGD could try to "spice" up their website, and and sell things in a package (ULE, rail, I-frame, etc), so that the picture could have a cool lookin' gun that people would want to buy, then they'd sell more. Once they start selling a cool lookin' gun, that looks nice in the picture, at a reasonable price, then the 'Mag sales will increase. Once more people start actually shooting 'Mags, dealers will pick more 'Mag stuff up. Eventually, 'Mags could become something that you normally see at a field again.

I'm not really sure what everyone here at AO wants, but if I was looking for a high-end mech marker, and saw a picture of an already put together, cool looking 'Mag, it'd sway me to buy it much more than looking at a picture of a Classic, then a picture of a ULE, then a picture of an X-valve, etc.

My two pennies.

shartley

09-28-2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Grasshopper
I think that AGD should try to add some "flash" to their guns/website. Look at the difference between the Black Magik picture, and the RT Pro picture. The RT has a white background with an orange circle. Then, take a look at the BM. It's flashy, looks cool, and that's what makes it sell (not that alone, but it's a factor). Many, many, many of the people that are wanting to buy a gun, want it to look "cool".

If AGD could try to "spice" up their website, and and sell things in a package (ULE, rail, I-frame, etc), so that the picture could have a cool lookin' gun that people would want to buy, then they'd sell more. Once they start selling a cool lookin' gun, that looks nice in the picture, at a reasonable price, then the 'Mag sales will increase. Once more people start actually shooting 'Mags, dealers will pick more 'Mag stuff up. Eventually, 'Mags could become something that you normally see at a field again.

I'm not really sure what everyone here at AO wants, but if I was looking for a high-end mech marker, and saw a picture of an already put together, cool looking 'Mag, it'd sway me to buy it much more than looking at a picture of a Classic, then a picture of a ULE, then a picture of an X-valve, etc.

My two pennies.
What I think you may be forgetting (or may not realize) is what the AGD Site looked like before its fairly recent facelift and upgrade. It is night and day… and for the better.

I don’t think the Site and how a picture looks is the key at this point… but I agree that more flash would not hurt their product line at all….. and if you notice, evidently neither do they since they have begun doing just that. It is just taking a bit of time.

tony3

09-28-2003, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

First of all, let's make this a little less personal. We're talking about ways AGD can improve its marketing, and yes, a new standard, stock body every decade or so would definitely help.

Secondly, to get one thing out of the way, Here is my primary Marker:
http://www.no1beefcake.com/images/automag4.jpg
Yes, it is an old school, 10 pound chunk of stainless steel that isn't horribly accurate, or horribly fast, or horribly good looking, but I love it, and it doesn't break. The quality of AGD's products haven't been in question. To me, however, their lower end markers are just not competing in their demographic, and in order to be a successful company, you must have a bread-and-butter base product to sell a good quantity. Your sales chart should pyramid, with the most sales going to your cheapest marker, and tapering off with your most expensive.

Also, in paintball, we know that aethetics do, in fact, matter greatly. From the military styled Tippmanns to the racy Angels, all of the markers on the shelf appeal to a different type. I think AGDs goal should be to appeal to every level of consumer, from beginner, to intermediate, to pro.

Until AGD makes a base level, updated marker to replace the Classic 68, they're going to be disappointed with their sales. That is just the way it is. All arguments aside, I think that the past will show that innovation should start at the top, and filter down to the lower products. It doesn't cost AGD much (if any) more to put a Level 10 on a Classic Mag, instead of the current. And hell, why not make a stock barrel that is included, and that isn't horrible? Tippmann does it, WGP does it, why not AGD? I know it HAS to cost less to make the ULE body than the old SS honkers, so throw those on as well.

The company shouldn't have to rely on a $700 or $1300 paintgun to keep them afloat in the market, because the average paintballer isn't going to pass up all the GREAT markers in the 300-500 dollar range to get there. AGD enthusiasts? Yes. A guy looking for the best value for his hard earned dollar? No.

Wise words, from a wise man, good job beefcake, you are thinking the exact same things as me.

thei3ug

09-28-2003, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by RogueFactor

Where did you say those words the first time?

forgive me if i chose to paraphrase, but I thought my first post wasn't enough to the point.

How about "I've noticed the fanatacism getting to the point where true criticism is ignored and attacked," not from me, but hey, maybe I should have just left it at that rather than open myself up to criticism.

Or let's just make the background on a jpeg better, that will sell for sure.

no1beefcake

09-29-2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Marek
And which point that he was trying to make had merit? I don't no about anyone else, but the reason I brought anything up was the fact that the rt valve was "outdated." I'm sorry, but there is no proof of that statement, and when I brought it up again, lets not make it personal.

Stick by your words and back them up, or don't say anything at all.

Ok, let's just put it this way, the RT valve is outdated like my dual 1ghz G4. It still is nice, and still gets the job done, but it isn't like a new G5 (or X-valve) and should be priced accordingly. The RTPro shouldn't be 3 times as expensive as the Classic. It should be moved down, and the classic should be phased out...

no1beefcake

09-29-2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by RogueFactor

What thread are you reading?

Beefcake first posted here in response to a post I made with actual monetary figures, and made an accusation that "my thinking was flawed", or didnt you read that post?

No cult needed to jump on him. Between him and a few others, they come up with an arbitrary number($350) with no factual basis for it.

I havent seen a shouting match. Quite the opposite---I have seen beefcake change his arguments and play semantics himself, and twist his own words around.

Let me know if you would like me to go thru his posts and show you his inconsistencies, semantics, and word-twisting.

And your right, it is sick...that someone could say its a *conspiracy* of the AO cult to jump on a guy who makes unfounded statements and is then held to the standard of backing them up.

You still fail to understand how your thinking is indeed flawed. The retail price (the price that you posted for all of those individual parts that you have to buy to make a decent Mag) of those items is at a HUGE markup for AGD, and a single marker with all of those included should be at a price much lower than the combination of all of those parts. I already responded to this flawed concept in thinking by equating it to a car, in that the sum of all the separate parts would be much more expensive than just buying the finished product. I guess you just didn't understand.

Also, none of my statements were unfounded. The title of this thread is "A marketing idea for AGD" and all of my ideas have been about marketing, for AGD. I would LOVE for you to show me the "semantics and word twisting," please...

Frederic

09-29-2003, 04:07 PM

The classic valve should not be done away with since there are plenty of people restricted to using CO2 and RT valves allegedly cannot handle CO2.

The thing that bothers me is that to get a LVL X + ULE body, you end up with two bodies and two bolts. The option to get it all for less than separate (and all installed professionally by AGD) would be a boon for business in the long run. For those sold on AGD no matter what they do, they'll lose money on these folk.

Marek

09-29-2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake
Ok, let's just put it this way, the RT valve is outdated like my dual 1ghz G4. It still is nice, and still gets the job done, but it isn't like a new G5 (or X-valve) and should be priced accordingly. The RTPro shouldn't be 3 times as expensive as the Classic. It should be moved down, and the classic should be phased out...

There is no difference in the performance of an RT valve and an X-Valve. The weight difference is like 3 oz. Fine, X-valves come with lvl. 10, but that is not in the mix. What is in the mix, is the fact that you're trying to justify why you say that the rt is outdated. Again, there is no proof to that statement, no matter how you try and twist your words around.

Same valve there, and RT Pros come with X-valves and lvl. 10 now.

no1beefcake

09-29-2003, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Frederic
The classic valve should not be done away with since there are plenty of people restricted to using CO2 and RT valves allegedly cannot handle CO2.

The thing about it is, the Classic valves don't handle CO2 very well either (without a nice x-chamber, and anti-syphon)

no1beefcake

09-29-2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Marek

There is no difference in the performance of an RT valve and an X-Valve. The weight difference is like 3 oz. Fine, X-valves come with lvl. 10, but that is not in the mix. What is in the mix, is the fact that you're trying to justify why you say that the rt is outdated. Again, there is no proof to that statement, no matter how you try and twist your words around.

Same valve there, and RT Pros come with X-valves and lvl. 10 now.

You just stated the evidence right there. No level 10, it's heavier, and it won't handle CO2. Yes, it'll recharge really fast, but it's no longer the latest or greatest, but it still carries a latest and greatest pricetag.

xatle

09-29-2003, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

The thing about it is, the Classic valves don't handle CO2 very well either (without a nice x-chamber, and anti-syphon)

for years i ran a standard 20 oz verticle bottle without any trouble at all. even now that i use hpa i keep a verticle asa on my classic so that in the event im stuck useing co2 i can just yank off the drop forward and screw in a co2 tank.

LaW

09-29-2003, 11:55 PM

no1beefcake

09-30-2003, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by xatle

for years i ran a standard 20 oz verticle bottle without any trouble at all. even now that i use hpa i keep a verticle asa on my classic so that in the event im stuck useing co2 i can just yank off the drop forward and screw in a co2 tank.

When I first got my current 'Mag, I had heard that they would run fine with a verticle bottle CO2, but mine never would, ever... It'd freeze after very few shots.

jaylock33

09-30-2003, 08:04 AM

I find it amusing when people speak of mark ups on products. Sure we can all guess what the mark up is on their products but truth be told only AGD knows what the mark up is. Case in point is that when PS2 was selling for $300 (the price sony had set for it) the retailers were making between $3 and $5 profit for each unit they sold. This in large part was do to manufacturing cost to ensure quality and the large R&D that went in devolping the system. To basically sum up the only people who truly know the mark up are AGD and their Respective dealers.

shartley

09-30-2003, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by jaylock33
I find it amusing when people speak of mark ups on products. Sure we can all guess what the mark up is on their products but truth be told only AGD knows what the mark up is. Case in point is that when PS2 was selling for $300 (the price sony had set for it) the retailers were making between $3 and $5 profit for each unit they sold. This in large part was do to manufacturing cost to ensure quality and the large R&D that went in devolping the system. To basically sum up the only people who truly know the mark up are AGD and their Respective dealers.
This is true.

And the same product made in-house VS from 3rd parties will also cost different… as well as depending on the quantities made.

(But I am not sure a respective Dealer would know the true cost of manufacture either. Generally they would know what THEY pay for it and the manufacturer's MSRP and go from there.. not production cost.)

Marek

09-30-2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake
You just stated the evidence right there. No level 10, it's heavier, and it won't handle CO2. Yes, it'll recharge really fast, but it's no longer the latest or greatest, but it still carries a latest and greatest pricetag.

Maybe your thinking of another post, but the comment that I made was in reference to you saying that the RT valve was outdated. What I said was not "evidence" somehow backing you up. It still performs just as well as an X-Valve, so that is not a valid point. Again, misinformation on your part.

The original RT valve didn't have lvl. 10 and was heavier than the X-valve. But, that is not the case now, so it no longer holds any weight to your "argument." RTPros now have ULE bodies and X-valves with Lvl. 10.

no1beefcake

10-01-2003, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by Marek

Maybe your thinking of another post, but the comment that I made was in reference to you saying that the RT valve was outdated. What I said was not "evidence" somehow backing you up. It still performs just as well as an X-Valve, so that is not a valid point. Again, misinformation on your part.

The original RT valve didn't have lvl. 10 and was heavier than the X-valve. But, that is not the case now, so it no longer holds any weight to your "argument." RTPros now have ULE bodies and X-valves with Lvl. 10.

Any update/improvement to a product makes the previous version of the products "outdated", by definition. The fact that RTPros now have the good stuff (as of very recently) is a small step. They still cost an arm and a leg. The step now should be to move the previous Gen RTPro down in price to the classics current range, with a bump for the included barrel, etc.

Marek

10-01-2003, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

Any update/improvement to a product makes the previous version of the products "outdated", by definition. The fact that RTPros now have the good stuff (as of very recently) is a small step. They still cost an arm and a leg. The step now should be to move the previous Gen RTPro down in price to the classics current range, with a bump for the included barrel, etc.

So ppl with RT valves should now throw away their "outdated" SS rt valves and flock to get new Alum rt valves right? Nice logic.

They are trying to phsse out SS bodies, so there wouldn't be older RT Pros to sell. Even then, not for the price of a classic mag.

no1beefcake

10-01-2003, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Marek

So ppl with RT valves should now throw away their "outdated" SS rt valves and flock to get new Alum rt valves right? Nice logic.

They are trying to phsse out SS bodies, so there wouldn't be older RT Pros to sell. Even then, not for the price of a classic mag.

I never said that people should throw anything away. However, when something is out of date, the price should drop. Instead, AGD just leaves it the same, and prices its replacement even higher.

abaez

10-01-2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

I never said that people should throw anything away. However, when something is out of date, the price should drop. Instead, AGD just leaves it the same, and prices its replacement even higher.

The thing is the rt valve is not out of date.. it's still the fastest *proven* recharging valve on the market.

beam

10-01-2003, 12:14 PM

Did RogueFactor delete all of his original posts, or were those brought in from another thread? I can't see any of his original posts, only quotes in people's replies. :(

shartley

10-01-2003, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by beam
Did RogueFactor delete all of his original posts, or were those brought in from another thread? I can't see any of his original posts, only quotes in people's replies. :(
… they were not brought in from another thread.

Marek

10-01-2003, 01:47 PM

This is getting boring. I ask the same question, and I get is a song and dance. By your words, the RT valve is no longer acceptable, current, or usable. I say that you're wrong and that it is not outdated. That is acceptable, current and usuable. Prove me wrong. If not, then the discussion is over.

blee70

10-01-2003, 03:51 PM

Marek...

First let me start off with...by no means am I slamming you...

I think you are misconstruing what no1beefcake is trying to say...and this is turning into a pi$$ing match.

I agree with what beefcake is trying to say where AGD should either drop their prices on the classic mag or include some upgrades into a new "package/bundle" to make it appealing for new buyers and gain prospective marketshare.

I have own mags (classics and original RTs) since the mid-90s and have since sold my RTs. In an attempt to upgrade my old trusty mag with the latest upgrades and improvements (ULE, Intelliframe, LV10 and X-valve), I would have to spend close to $500+ if not more to get an upgraded gun. I love the support that AGD provides to its customers and the fact that they are willing to develop their upgrades with them in mind. But wouldn't you agree, I can spend less than $500+ and get a comparable mechanical marker as in a 350 base cocker or upgrade tippman.

Peace!

Marek

10-01-2003, 04:35 PM

I have not mentioned anything about the price of the RT Pro, or upgrades or anything concerning the marketing or how pricey or cheap it is.

I brought him up on the statement that the RT valve was outdated. Sorry, but that is not the case. The only reply was had any form of solid reply was that the X-valve was better and it made the RT valve out of date. Again, there is nothing to back that up, since they are essentially the same valve. Some people actually don't care about getting a valve that is 3 oz (or whatever number it is) lighter and would rather stick with their current SS valve. Their is nothing wrong with the SS valve, which is why people still have them.

no1beefcake

10-01-2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Marek
I have not mentioned anything about the price of the RT Pro, or upgrades or anything concerning the marketing or how pricey or cheap it is.

I brought him up on the statement that the RT valve was outdated. Sorry, but that is not the case. The only reply was had any form of solid reply was that the X-valve was better and it made the RT valve out of date. Again, there is nothing to back that up, since they are essentially the same valve. Some people actually don't care about getting a valve that is 3 oz (or whatever number it is) lighter and would rather stick with their current SS valve. Their is nothing wrong with the SS valve, which is why people still have them.

Because there improvements have been made, the RT is no longer the upper echelon valve. Yes, it functions well (as long as you aren't using CO2), but it's heavy, and doesn't include Level 10 anti-chop protection. The X-valve is newer and better, there by making the RT obsolete. I have a 333mhz iMac at home that will still run MS Word, and connect to the internet, so would you say that it isn't outdated?

Marek

10-01-2003, 06:01 PM

Next your going to say that the Emag is obsolete right? :rolleyes: You know, since it's heavier and doesn't have an eye. Think about it. That's my point.

LaW

10-01-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by no1beefcake

Because there improvements have been made, the RT is no longer the upper echelon valve. Yes, it functions well (as long as you aren't using CO2), but it's heavy, and doesn't include Level 10 anti-chop protection. The X-valve is newer and better, there by making the RT obsolete. I have a 333mhz iMac at home that will still run MS Word, and connect to the internet, so would you say that it isn't outdated?

you can't use CO2 on the xvalve either, it functions the same way... its a 3oz difference in weight, that point is minute....

I see the xvalve more as an alternative valve. To me I do not think it is worth it to buy one when I already have a retro with lvl10 (came for free for my sfl anyway) for 3oz savings in weight... so does that make my sfl outdated and obsolete because I do not have a lighter valve? Would I notice any difference in performance besides having a 3oz load off my marker? Yeah I didn't think so.

no1beefcake

10-03-2003, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by Marek
Next your going to say that the Emag is obsolete right? :rolleyes: You know, since it's heavier and doesn't have an eye. Think about it. That's my point.

Unless you never chop (unlikely), you'd notice a difference in the Xvalve, because it has level 10, and your Rt doesn't, unless you've added it.

Marek

10-03-2003, 07:16 AM

Actually my RT does have lvl. 10. It did when I had my SFL and now as well.

Read Law's post. Enough said.

tony3

10-09-2003, 09:28 PM

The naperville bad boyz toyz store which is about 1 hr. from agd doesnt even carry any mags, they have had the same black emag on there wall forever, they carry some mag accessories, but youd think theyd have some mags, for god sakes they are 1 hr from agd.

Right now, It seems agd is happy with where they are at, they got loyal customers that are bowing at their feet, they got a great high end gun that has a long long waiting list, they got the "bugs" out of their guns, life is good. Agd isn't about flash.

I don't agree with that, I think agd has lots of potential, they could be making lots of money, if they wanted. They could sponsor every pro team, have guns with crazy milling, all different annos, make cheap electros and be like any other company. Agd as a company refects there guns, small, simple, reliable, and not about hype.