What happenes to WDP if smart parts shuts them down? [Archive]

manike

09-30-2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by shartley
WDP would have to figure out how much of a market loss they would lose by discontinuing US Sales.

80%

Originally posted by shartley
Heck, for that matter, they would have to figure out how much of a market loss they would take by not selling in ANY country that upholds US Patent Rights/Laws…. And anyone want to take a guess how many countries that is? ;)

It's just one country so far I believe. The USA. No other countries have allowed them to do what they have done with their patents in the USA.

Originally posted by shartley
That is not entirely true. And patents get extended on a regular basis.

Patents do not get extended. You can not extend a patent. That's the whole point. If you develop new and novel ideas you can get new patents on the innovations but the original concept is only patented for a finite period. In the USA I believe it is 20 years from the date of filing. For instance with my patent it took 3 years to get grant, so once granted the patent had a life of 17years.

shartley

09-30-2003, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by manike
80%
That’s a big chunk.

Originally posted by manike
It's just one country so far I believe. The USA. No other countries have allowed them to do what they have done with their patents in the USA.
I don’t think this is entirely correct. I think that if folks look, they will find that there is a wide range of cooperation between just about every industrialized nation, concerning copyrights, trademarks, and patents.

Originally posted by manike
Patents do not get extended. You can not extend a patent. That's the whole point. If you develop new and novel ideas you can get new patents on the innovations but the original concept is only patented for a finite period. In the USA I believe it is 20 years from the date of filing. For instance with my patent it took 3 years to get grant, so once granted the patent had a life of 17years.
I don’t think this is entirely correct either. I think if folks look into it, they can find many patents which have had their protection period extended for one reason or another…. A good place to start would be the drug industry. I know for a fact that this type of patent protection is common place in that industry…. And in fact there was a good show about it on something like 20/20 or similar show just last year.

shartley

09-30-2003, 08:44 AM

FYI about extended patents…

Please reference the USPTO’s own site.

http://www.uspto.gov/main/patents.htm

Folks will clearly see that there are a good many patents that have been extended.

manike

09-30-2003, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by shartley
I think that if folks look, they will find that there is a wide range of cooperation between just about every industrialized nation, concerning copyrights, trademarks, and patents.

What's that got to do with anything? Yes there is huge co-operation and you can use priority dates from an application in one country to get a priority date in another. But a patent in the USA is a USA patent and worth nothing in another country.

If you get a priority date in the USA as SP have done you can then use it to apply for a patent in the UK and other countries. But it doesn't mean they will get grant in those other countries. Some countries are not so willing to grant patents as others...

Originally posted by shartley
I don’t think this is entirely correct either. I think if folks look into it, they can find many patents which have had their protection period extended for one reason or another…. A good place to start would be the drug industry. I know for a fact that this type of patent protection is common place in that industry…. And in fact there was a good show about it on something like 20/20 or similar show just last year.

It's correct when it comes to patents such as this and the ones being discussed here.

The whole point of a patent is because you get a protected life in the market place for a finite period of time and then that technology is available for everyone to use. The drug industry has some special circumstances because some things in the drugs industry have taken so long and so much money to develop that they had no protection once they hit the market so there has been some special cases here, but in general you can not extend a patent. And SP will not be able to extend their patents. The extension of a patent is not relevant to the SP case.

hardr0ck68

09-30-2003, 09:01 AM

so how much longer is their to wait out, their origional patent was what 97? maybe a few years before....i wounder if AGD can hold out for 10 years or so only producing mech guns....

shartley

09-30-2003, 09:07 AM

First of all Simon, I want to say that I don’t want to get into an “argument” with you over this. LOL

But you are now saying things that you did not say before. I only addressed the statements you made, not the ones you are now making. With that said…

Originally posted by manike
What's that got to do with anything? Yes there is huge co-operation and you can use priority dates from an application in one country to get a priority date in another. But a patent in the USA is a USA patent and worth nothing in another country.

If you get a priority date in the USA as SP have done you can then use it to apply for a patent in the UK and other countries. But it doesn't mean they will get grant in those other countries. Some countries are not so willing to grant patents as others...
You are correct.. aside from saying that a US Patent is worth nothing in another country. Maybe you should look into it some more? I know the USPTO Site has a nice section covering all that, and the cooperation between almost every industrialized nation on earth concerning intellectual property rights… from copyrights, trademarks, and patents.

If this was indeed not the case, we would see blatant patent infringement (or more so copying of) on a scale that would cripple almost every industry in the world…. But we don’t.

I don’t need to get into it all here, folks are free to just visit the site and read for themselves. And this is not information just being given by me, it is provided directly from the source.

Originally posted by manike
It's correct when it comes to patents such as this and the ones being discussed here.

The whole point of a patent is because you get a protected life in the market place for a finite period of time and then that technology is available for everyone to use. The drug industry has some special circumstances because some things in the drugs industry have taken so long and so much money to develop that they had no protection once they hit the market so there has been some special cases here, but in general you can not extend a patent. And SP will not be able to extend their patents. The extension of a patent is not relevant to the SP case.
Whether it is relevant in your eyes as it pertains to SP is irrelevant. I only addressed what you posted, not how it applied to the SP case. You stated that they (patents) can not be extended, and I knew that to be an inaccurate statement. Nothing more.

manike

09-30-2003, 09:30 AM

First off you comment about how people should be careful what they say to avoid starting rumours. Then you bring up something completely irrelevant about extension of patents and say it is happens on a regular basis? There has been maybe a few hundred patents extended because of exceptional circumstances. There are probably more patents in Paintball than have ever been extended. The number of patents that have been extended in comparison to the number granted of around 6.5 MILLION, does not make a regular basis.

If you want to get pedantic and argue about what I said, fine, but what what you said is completely irrelevant and for all relevant purposes to the topic and issues of this thread I am correct, and I was talking about the patents in this thread. Probably a mistake to make such a sweeping statement when there are such analy retentive people about. Now you may well have started a rumour about SP being able to extend their patents. Nice one :rolleyes: . It's irrelevance to this issue makes it not worth discussing any further. If you can find any relevance to this issue I will be very happy to consider it.

You are correct.. aside from saying that a US Patent is worth nothing in another country. Maybe you should look into it some more? I know the USPTO Site has a nice section covering all that, and the cooperation between almost every industrialized nation on earth concerning intellectual property rights… from copyrights, trademarks, and patents.

How about the fact I looked into it when I applied for may patents, looked into it once they were granted, and it was pointed out very clearly to me by the companies that took licences on my patents when we were doing the deals. I suggest you do some more research. I've been doing it for 8 years and paying out my behind for it from my legal guys.

Patents are quite different to other forms of IP unfortunately. :(

If this was indeed not the case, we would see blatant patent infringement (or more so copying of) on a scale that would cripple almost every industry in the world…. But we don’t.

Often that is because companies that patent big products not only get USA patents but European and WorldWide patents and well as patents in specific countries where required, so they do have cover. When that doesn't happen we do see a lot of knock off goods in countries not covered by the patents. I've been threatened by people in some of these minority countries with rip offs of my stuff, such is life. How do you know other countries are not knocking off the goods you see covered by USA patents?

The original electronic hopper was knocked off and sold all over Europe and the rest of the world because it was only patented in the USA. The rival product was called the 'Autofeed'. Are you familiar with it?

Gadget

09-30-2003, 09:35 AM

Would I be right in thinking that AGD only having US patents was the reason EPS in the UK got away with ripping off the Automag with their Colonial 'clone' in the early/mid 90s?

Webmaster

09-30-2003, 09:50 AM

This is all kinda silly.

NO WAY will WDP pull out of the US market. It would be like McDonalds not selling hamburgers anymore!

Unless WDP fights it - they too will have to pay a royalty - as it looks like everyone will have to who is covered by the US patent.

Niether SP nor WDP would have anything to gain by WDP pulling out of the US market.

BTW - did you know that for MANY years EVERY auto manufacture had to pay a royalty to a Mr. George Selden. Yet the auto industry didnt die. So buck up - this isnt the end - it just means we, the consumer, will be passed down the extra costs of a royalty.

shartley

09-30-2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by manike
First off you comment about how people should be careful what they say to avoid starting rumours. Then you bring up something completely irrelevant about extension of patents and say it is happens on a regular basis? There has been maybe a few hundred patents extended because of exceptional circumstances. There are probably more patents in Paintball than have ever been extended. The number of patents that have been extended in comparison to the number granted of around 6.5 MILLION, does not make a regular basis.

If you want to get pedantic and argue about what I said, fine, but what what you said is completely irrelevant and for all relevant purposes to the topic and issues of this thread I am correct, and I was talking about the patents in this thread. Probably a mistake to make such a sweeping statement when there are such analy retentive people about. Now you may well have started a rumour about SP being able to extend their patents. Nice one :rolleyes: . It's irrelevance to this issue makes it not worth discussing any further. If you can find any relevance to this issue I will be very happy to consider it.
Okay, so you are shown to have made a couple false statements, I posted why they were false and now you want to call me names? That really makes sense.

You also want to make a big deal out of an offhand comment I made that was not factually wrong, and somehow compare it to your factually wrong statements? Okay, that makes sense too.

Want to address what I actually posted and said, not what folks might “draw from it”, fine. After all, I only addressed what you actually wrote. After all, we both know that if I was to post something factually incorrect you and others would be all over it… as you tried to do with my first posts here.

Then again, my responses to your posts has been nothing but civil, and void of any antagonism… unlike yours. But you are more popular, so that makes a difference right? Oh well.

Originally posted by manike
How about the fact I looked into it when I applied for may patents, looked into it once they were granted, and it was pointed out very clearly to me by the companies that took licences on my patents when we were doing the deals. I suggest you do some more research. I've been doing it for 8 years and paying out my behind for it from my legal guys.

Patents are quite different to other forms of IP unfortunately. :(
The fact that you paid others to look into it, nor that you may have looked into it as well does not make you an expert in the matter. I don’t intend this to be insulting in any way, but blunt. Like I said, all folks have to do is visit the USPTO Site and read for themselves.

And I will also point out that nothing you have said so far has shown that I was factually wrong in anything I have stated. And for the most part I have agreed with what you have said.

Originally posted by manike
Often that is because companies that patent big products not only get USA patents but European and WorldWide patents and well as patents in specific countries where required, so they do have cover. When that doesn't happen we do see a lot of knock off goods in countries not covered by the patents. I've been threatened by people in some of these minority countries with rip offs of my stuff, such is life. How do you know other countries are not knocking off the goods you see covered by USA patents?

The original electronic hopper was knocked off and sold all over Europe and the rest of the world because it was only patented in the USA. The rival product was called the 'Autofeed'.
Again, what you post does not show that what I stated was wrong. You list good examples of thing, and bring up other protections, but that does not mean that what I stated is incorrect…. Again, folks can visit the USPTO Site and read for themselves.

Thank you for your time and energy, but at this point it is nothing more than you trying to save face (which does not need saving) by attempting to insult me or toss up smokescreens over what my comments were actually about or pertaining to. You made a couple statements that were factually incorrect, and in direct response to an offhand comment I made. I was only pointing out that the statements were wrong…. And obviously you can’t handle that.

I apologize.

Webmaster

09-30-2003, 09:53 AM

BTW - Gadget or our other UK memeber - I would love to get my hands on a good shaped Colonial for my collection - let me know if you find one.

manike

09-30-2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by shartley
The fact that you paid others to look into it, nor that you may have looked into it as well does not make you an expert in the matter. I don’t intend this to be insulting in any way, but blunt. Like I said, all folks have to do is visit the USPTO Site and read for themselves.

I don't claim to be an expert. But I very definitely have paid experts to look into it, and had very highly paid experts to point out the issues to me from companies licencing my patents. If most folks could read it all for themselves they wouldn't be asking the questions. It's a shame you so often post irrelevant stuff as if it matters and then can't admit to being wrong or back down gracefully.

You are wrong if you think a USA patent is going to stop somebody ripping it off in another country. You just can't ever admit to being wrong or irrelevant.

As for saving face? I don't feel the need to post pages trying to back up my irrelevances or ignorance on the subject matter. You will see from my last post that I did make a mistake, and apologised for it. I'll quote it again for you.

a mistake to make such a sweeping statement when there are such analy retentive people about.

EDIT p.s. Webby I have had several people put in such requests lately so I will see what I can do.

shartley

09-30-2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by manike
I don't claim to be an expect. But I very definitely have paid experts to look into it, and had very highly paid experts to point out the issues to me from companies licencing my patents. If most folks could read it all for themselves they wouldn't be asking the questions. It's a shame you so often post irrelevant stuff as if it matters and then can't admit to being wrong or back down gracefully.
And that has what to do with your own posts, and what you posted that was wrong? Nothing. But again, good way to point the finger at me… nicely groomed nails. ;)

Originally posted by manike
You are wrong if you think a USA patent is going to stop somebody ripping it off in another country. You just can't ever admit to being wrong or irrelevant.
I would be wrong is I thought a USA patent would stop someone from ripping off an idea… even in the USA itself. These laws do not PREVENT an action, only helps provide a remedy if it does happen. And this is neither wrong, nor irrelevant.

Originally posted by manike
As for saving face? I don't feel the need to post pages trying to back up my irrelevances or ignorance on the subject matter. You will see from my last post that I did make a mistake, and apologised for it. I'll quote it again for you.
I saw that, and thank you. But did you simply apologize and let it be? No, you do exactly what you are claiming I am doing. LOL But you can’t see that.

How about this? Let’s just let this drop and let folks actually read what was written. They can then either ignore it, or do further research for themselves. Because at this point it is not about what really happened or what was said, it is about who will end up on top because of popularity alone….

manike

09-30-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by shartley
And that has what to do with your own posts, and what you posted that was wrong?

Erm it's telling you that issues you brought up are not correct because on that very subject, I have researched it, and experts have researched it for me, and experts have researched it against me. And all came to the same conclusions. A USA patent has no powers to help stop infringement in any country that is not the USA. It does allow priority dates to be set for patents applied for and relevant to foreign countries that are part of the relevant pact. If the pending patent is not granted in the relevant foreign countries then the USA patent holds no relevance...

Now as for myself and the fact that I wrote my own patents and have been researching them for years on the net and the fact that I have been involved with highly trained professionals who are expert in this area..., but on second thoughts yes, I'll bow down to your vastly superior knowledge on the subject due to the fact you watched a program about a year ago on patents which was about irrelevant products and irrelevant issues to the industry we are discussing here. :rolleyes:

I'm very happy for people to read what has been said and then look up the relevant information for themselves. That's all good. Thanks for giving them some links to help them.

I'm only posting to put the facts straight. There is enough rubbish about this issue without adding more. I don't care about 'saving face'.

SlartyBartFast

09-30-2003, 10:41 AM

Well written Manike.

I think that being outside the US *AND* having applied for, received, and liscenced your own patents you're quite a bit more qualified than anyone else on the board to talk about international (and even US specific) patent issues.

Any one who thinks otherwise probably needs their head examined.:p

shartley

09-30-2003, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by manike
Erm it's telling you that issues you brought up are not correct because on that very subject, I have researched it, and experts have researched it for me, and experts have researched it against me. And all came to the same conclusions. A USA patent has no powers to help stop infringement in any country that is not the USA. It does allow priority dates to be set for patents applied for and relevant to foreign countries that are part of the relevant pact. If the pending patent is not granted in the relevant foreign countries then the USA patent holds no relevance...
Very good Simon. You may be correct… the USPTO says a little differently however. And again, this is not ME talking, it is what I READ from them. But then again I suppose you need to pay someone to read for you for it to be valid. (“you” is a generality)

Originally posted by manike
Now as for myself and the fact that I wrote my own patents and have been researching them for years on the net and the fact that I have been involved with highly trained professionals who are expert in this area..., but on second thoughts yes, I'll bow down to your vastly superior knowledge on the subject due to the fact you watched a program about a year ago on patents which was about irrelevant products and irrelevant issues to the industry we are discussing here. :rolleyes:
Oh how you assume. If you think that is the ONLY reason I think what I do, my my. But it does make being condescending a lot easier.

Again, it seems to me that I have been the only one who posted any support for what they said. You want to post a lot of “I did this, and had this done”, condescension, and blowing smoke that has nothing to do with what I originally posted. If you wanted to say I was wrong, or that what I posted was not relevant to the patent at hand, you could have done so. But you didn’t. You were just too eager to tell me I was wrong about extending patents and who you feel recognizes US patents, and in doing so made a wrong statement.

You even admitted this yourself… but then insult me by saying I am anal. Well, like I said, if it was ME who posted what you did, and you or someone else knew it to be wrong I would have been handed my head.

Originally posted by manike
I'm very happy for people to read what has been said and then look up the relevant information for themselves. That's all good. Thanks for giving them some links to help them.

I'm only posting to put the facts straight. There is enough rubbish about this issue without adding more. I don't care about 'saving face'.
Simon, I have tried to be civil with you. But you continue to blow this all out of proportion. Yes, you went through the process. Yes, you know a lot about the subject matter. But you are not without fault or above being mistaken or down right wrong about something.

I maintain that the US Patent Laws HELP protect IP, even outside our borders. You maintain that they do not. I point folks to the USPTO’s own Site, and you point them to yourself and what you say has been told to you. Fine. Wonderful. Great.

Just because someone has gone through something does not mean they know everything about it. Nor does it mean they can’t be wrong about a point or two. And there is no pride lost in either. Heck I have been wrong about things before, and will be again. But the points I contended (and ONLY those points) have yet to be proven wrong in this case. I know that just chapps some folks’ rears, but oh well.

The rest of the issues are what is irrelevant. Talk about irrelevant? Honestly? ALL of this is irrelevant. I doubt they will pull out of the US market. And all other side issues would then be irrelevant.

Can we just let this go without further jabs or insults? I used to think you were above that. I am extending my hand in an attempt to let this drop.....

manike

09-30-2003, 11:51 AM

You say you find other different information elsewhere but don't give links or proof. You just advise 'folks' to read a huge website full of information and talk about stuff that is not relevant, and point them to links that are not relevant to the real subject here (I don't care however much you want to try and sidetrack the real issue), and now you have twisted the thread even further away by picking up on a small issue on which I already apologised for making a mistake about.

I admitted to making a mistake about my being so general in saying you can't extend patents, but now you are trying to make it sound like something else.

As for the rest, well you are wrong until you can find proof elsewise. I can't believe you want to try an insinuate I am wrong in something I have been so widely involved in and researching. But yet you still do. Fine. People will read that and see for themselves what they want to think and believe in the subject. Hopefully if interested they will research it further also.

You haven't posted any support. You have given links to a huge website and told people to read for themselves. Well you will find you are wrong if you just go to www.google.com and read all the information they have on the subject there you will realise it. :D

Where does it say on the USPTO website that a USA patent will help you prevent (or stop what has started) infringement by foreign companies on foreign soil? I'd really like to see that information.

Kevmaster

09-30-2003, 12:05 PM

I love AO

Creative Mayhem

09-30-2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Kevmaster
I love AO

I agree...

FIGHT!!!! :D

hardr0ck68

09-30-2003, 12:22 PM

it must hurt to be some people....and if it doesnt then it should

shartley

09-30-2003, 12:25 PM

Not a single person in this thread has posed any definitive proof of anything. LOL (Aside from that patents can indeed be extended.)

I am also not trying to make anything sound like anything.

The only thing that is now happening is two school boys puffing their chests at each other saying “I know you are, but what am I?” or “Nu,uh prove it!” LOL

Tell you what Simon, if you want to prove ME wrong, then do so. But you can’t do that by just stating “I know so.” or “I had experts tell me so.”.. you may be right, but that does not prove it. Sorry.

It’s all fine and well… Like I said, I don’t think any of this really matters. And I refuse to get upset over it or start calling you names or trying to belittle you in any way… but if that is what makes you feel important and like a big man, feel free to continue. LOL

Fred

09-30-2003, 12:27 PM

just put him on Ignore like so many of us have already Simon... it makes for a much shorter, relevant, informative and fun to read thread...

As for WDP leaving the US market, darn... its not like they ever built a pump version for my nitch of the market... :D

---Fred

Kaiser Bob

09-30-2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by shartley
And I refuse to get upset over it or start calling you names or trying to belittle you in any way… but if that is what makes you feel important and like a big man, feel free to continue. LOL

Hey, isnt that kinda of name calling in itself? :)

Oh yeah Fred PM me your address so i can send you your stuff as i didnt make it to castle :(

bofh

09-30-2003, 12:35 PM

Working in the pharma industry, I have to chance to bother some of our lawyers about our patent troubles. (we're running against some deadlines :( )

Drug patents are different from non-drug patents, as they are much shorter in duration (7 years, IIRC) , and a myrid of special rules apply. As far as I know, after asking our lawyers over lunch, only FDA regulated patents can be extended.

bofh

09-30-2003, 12:51 PM

Whoops, just had some thing clarified for me, only regulated patents can be extended.

That is, patents describe a product that have to be reviewed by a regulator agency before their commercial use. At the time, the only thing that my lunch buddy can think of is FDA approved items, like a drug, medical device, food additive, or color additive.

shartley

09-30-2003, 12:58 PM

Manike
I will concede that a US Patent in itself does not in itself protect you from others in other countries copying your ideas and profiting from them. I will however state that it helps enforcing your claims, or to help receive patents in other countries (as you have stated), or more so getting an international patent which covers all in the PCT.. which is extensive.

However, this does not mean that any US IP award does not hold weight in other countries... only Patents. As you stated.

I guess we were both wrong about one point.

Thanks for keeping it so civil.

bofh
Thank you for that information.

hardr0ck68

09-30-2003, 01:25 PM

guess whos been doin some research (i hate research, i have 2 projects on FCC regulations due in a month and i havent looked for crap, this debate however put me in the mood to prove argumentive people wrong)

http://www2.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/foliocgi.exe/patentact/query=*/doc/{@242}?

"§ 154. Contents and term of patent
(a) In general.

(2) Term.

Subject to the payment of fees under this title, such grant shall be for a term beginning on the date on which the patent issues and ending 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, if the application contains a specific reference to an earlier filed application or applications under section 120 [35 USC § 120 ], 121 [35 USC § 121 ] or 365(c) [35 USC § 365(c) ] of this title, from the date on which the earliest such application was filed.
(b) Term extension.

(1) Interference delay or secrecy orders.

If the issue of an original patent is delayed due to a proceeding under section 135(a) of this title [35 USC § 135(c) ], or because the application for patent is placed under an order pursuant to section 181 of this title [35 USC § 181 ], the term of the patent shall be extended for the period of delay, but in no case more than 5 years....

(2) Extension for appellate review.

If the issue of a patent is delayed due to appellate review by the Board of Patent Appeals and Interferences or by a Federal court and the patent is issued purusant to a decision in the review reversing an adverse determination of patentability, the term of the patent shall be extended for a period of time but in no cases more than 5 years. A patent shall not be eligible for extension under this paragraph if it is subject to a terminal disclaimer due to the issue of another patent claiming subject matter that is not patentably distinct from that under appellate review."

yes you can get an extension, but only if your pattent was held up when issued and the extension can be no longer than 5 years or less.....

edited for clarity :D

hardr0ck68

09-30-2003, 01:30 PM

PS, Sam you sure do have a wounderful and at the same time very annoying way of uniting AO in a common cause......

as far as im concerned Manike was proved correct on all issues!!

:D

shartley

09-30-2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by hardr0ck68
PS, Sam you sure do have a wounderful and at the same time very annoying way of uniting AO in a common cause......

as far as im concerned Manike was proved correct on all issues!!

:D
Okay, that is fine. But what you posted shows that you can extend a patent. There are rules for it, but none the less a patent can be extended.

Of course there is no allowing a graceful admit of being wrong on AO… I can see that now.

hardr0ck68

09-30-2003, 01:45 PM

Yeah, but then again not really. It can only be extened if it was held up in court or something durring the filling process and the extension is for 5 years or the length of time it was held up for whatever is less. so again we go to the point of relevancy, the extension is only relevent if SP was held up in court when they filled for the shocker. Prehaps Sam you should be a little bit less abrasive and then people wouldent take such pleasure in proving you wrong...

sorry for the poor spelling

shartley

09-30-2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by hardr0ck68
Yeah, but then again not really. It can only be extened if it was held up in court or something durring the filling process and the extension is for 5 years or the length of time it was held up for whatever is less. so again we go to the point of relevancy, the extension is only relevent if SP was held up in court when they filled for the shocker. Prehaps Sam you should be a little bit less abrasive and then people wouldent take such pleasure in proving you wrong...

sorry for the poor spelling
Actually I was not arguing if the SP patent could be extended. I think you might have missed that….but all this has been gone over already.

And once again, I am not only responsible for my actions, but for those of others as well. The power I wield in my fingers! ;)

Seriously, if folks want to complain about ME, they need to hold themselves and others to the same standards. And when I say I was wrong, let it go….. if not…… well… who is really the bad guy?

Now… can we get back to the topic?

JT2002

09-30-2003, 02:01 PM

hey shartley, ever heard of the nemesis? (http://www.paintguns.com.tw/nemesis.htm) ;) ;) :rolleyes: :D yet i dont think we have heard of bob doing anyhting about this :D

hardr0ck68

09-30-2003, 02:04 PM

yes, yes we can....

Does anyone know the origional file date fo the first schocker patent? had to have been around 97...so that means they can hold this over other companies heads for what another 14 years....wow. I wounder what companies will survive....hell i will make a point to buy a new mechanical gun every year (thats alot of RTP's :D ).

SpecialBlend2786

09-30-2003, 02:04 PM

haha, this is a pretty entertaining thread:p

shartley

09-30-2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by JT2002
hey shartley, ever heard of the nemesis? (http://www.paintguns.com.tw/nemesis.htm) ;) ;) :rolleyes: :D yet i dont think we have heard of bob doing anyhting about this :D
Yes, I have.

Have you asked Bob if he has done anything about it? I know that there are some products made outside the US that have permission to do so. I am not saying that is the case, but I have heard of such products.

Also, even if they are making them illegally the fact that Bob does or does not do anything is not in itself an argument in either direction. If someone takes your car and you don’t press charges against them, does that mean no crime was committed? Enforcing ones rights or not is not always in itself proof whether ones rights are being violated. If that made sense.

bofh

09-30-2003, 02:10 PM

Interestingly enough, the docs that Curtis dropped on my desk refer to this process as "Patent Term Adjustment"

Also, you can't ask to get an Extension under 35 U.S.C 154, you have to appeal the Patent office's decision of the length of your patents term with six months of the patent being granted.

Translation? The patent office takes in account their delays, and subtracts YOUR delays, and adjusts the length of the patent term accordingly. If you don't like that, you have six months to appeal.

If, beyond six months after the granting of the patent, you want to appeal, you can't.

My lunch buddy tells me there's a difference between "Adjustment" and "Extension." And the gist of it is, you'll get no less 17 years of patent after it's granted.

JT2002

09-30-2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by shartley

Yes, I have.

Have you asked Bob if he has done anything about it? I know that there are some products made outside the US that have permission to do so. I am not saying that is the case, but I have heard of such products.

Also, even if they are making them illegally the fact that Bob does or does not do anything is not in itself an argument in either direction. If someone takes your car and you don’t press charges against them, does that mean no crime was committed? Enforcing ones rights or not is not always in itself proof whether ones rights are being violated. If that made sense. whos to decide if they are committiing (sp? :D ) a crime or not? the point is, a knock off of a gun is being made outside of the us, and you dont hear of anything going on, and you still only stated a "possiblility" they they got permission to make that gun, well, speculation, thats all that is

Webmaster

09-30-2003, 02:16 PM

First off - Shartley and Manike have had thier say and I think that particular issue is resolved. So lets let it go and not have everyone put in thier little kicks.

Second - the Nemisis is made by the same company who makes the cocker clones - which is licenced from WGP. If they play that game with others, I bet the licenced the design from bob. Then again - it IS Asia - which is notorious for ripping off EVERYTHING from DVDs to Designer clothes, to electronics.

At anyrate - lets get and stay on the topic of the thread. I have a lot to do at work today - and would rather lock this thread than police it. Thanks.

shartley

09-30-2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by JT2002
whos to decide if they are committiing (sp? :D ) a crime or not? the point is, a knock off of a gun is being made outside of the us, and you dont hear of anything going on, and you still only stated a "possiblility" they they got permission to make that gun, well, speculation, thats all that is
And likewise you are still only stating a “possibility” they are doing something illegal. ;) Look that knife cuts both ways.

If you are really interested in knowing, ASK. But don’t ask ME. ;) I don’t know. Ask those involved. Ask Bob. Then you will know, and then you can come back and talk about it. But before that, what’s the point?

I do however, know that if a product is in violation of US laws (such as being made in China illegally concerning copyrights and such) it is most often stopped at the border and not allowed to be sold or shipped to the US.. legally. I don’t know how this fits in with patented items, but I am also not even sure that marker is patented. I am sure though, that it could quite possibly be in copyright and other violations…. Could be. But I don’t know.

Again, you may want to ask Bob about it if you are really concerned about it. I for one am not. And using it as an example for potential violations really does not work… unless you know it IS in violation.

manike

09-30-2003, 02:27 PM

Having personally spoken to Bob and National about the Nemesis I can tell you that is an illegal knock off and not made under licence.

Anyone found selling or dealing with them will no longer be allowed to be a distributor of National products. That's what they are doing about it and just about all they can do about it. :(

I'm personally one of the people working on new intimidators to help take them to a new level where knock offs of older versions won't be as sought after by potential intimidator customers. It's one way of fighting back. There is some good stuff coming guys ;) .

When Autofeed was taking over the electronic hopper section of the market in Europe, ViewLoader gave away VL2000 motorised hoppers with any Automag purchased just to try and stop people buying Autofeeds.

JT2002

09-30-2003, 02:29 PM

i never said it was in violation at any point in time! where did you come up with that? you were the one talking about violations outside of the US, and i just used the nemesis as a knockoff made outside the US, but never said that it was illegal, just a knock off

manike can you hint at all in pm or w/e as to whats in store for the new timmys? i already saw the empires, lookin sweet. thinking of coming back to timmys from my angel, heh my parents will love hearing this out of me. lol ive been gun whoreing a lil too much lately lol :D

shartley

09-30-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by manike
Having personally spoken to Bob and National about the Nemesis I can tell you that is an illegal knock off and not made under licence.

Anyone found selling or dealing with them will no longer be allowed to be a distributor of National products. That's what they are doing about it and just about all they can do about it. :(

I'm personally one of the people working on new intimidators to help take them to a new level where knock offs of older versions won't be as sought after by potential intimidator customers. It's one way of fighting back. There is some good stuff coming guys ;) .

When Autofeed was taking over the electronic hopper section of the market in Europe, ViewLoader gave away VL2000 motorised hoppers with any Automag purchased just to try and stop people buying Autofeeds.
Thank you.

Originally posted by JT2002
i never said it was in violation at any point in time! where did you come up with that? you were the one talking about violations outside of the US, and i just used the nemesis as a knockoff made outside the US, but never said that it was illegal, just a knock off

manike can you hint at all in pm or w/e as to whats in store for the new timmys? i already saw the empires, lookin sweet. thinking of coming back to timmys from my angel, heh my parents will love hearing this out of me. lol ive been gun whoreing a lil too much lately lol :D
What? LOL We were discussing legal VS illegal, not what is a knockoff.

If I misunderstood what you were intending… I am sorry. I think most everyone would have understood your posts as I did though… again, please accept my apology if I mistook your meaning.

With that said…. what is your point then?

manike

09-30-2003, 02:41 PM

Sorry JT2002 but I can't release info on exactly what is coming other than what has been said already. More information may well be available at World Cup.

Just expect them to be faster, smaller, lighter... etc. ;)

JT2002

09-30-2003, 02:42 PM

i just felt like adding that example of a gun, being made illegally outside of the US, yet NOTHING is being done to hand it cept banning people from national. heh this tread has too much info in it!!!!!111:D

JT2002

09-30-2003, 02:48 PM

in other words i should just sell my angel now. :D know
anyone in want of a nice speed? :rolleyes: :D
sry for double post

how much lighter could they get lol

shartley

09-30-2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by JT2002
i just felt like adding that example of a gun, being made illegally outside of the US, yet NOTHING is being done to hand it cept banning people from national. heh this tread has too much info in it!!!!!111:D
Sorry, you just contradicted yourself... but oh well.... ;)

freek133

09-30-2003, 03:01 PM

I gotta question,

Manike said that anyone selling the nemesis will be no longer able to sell any nps product, what about people advertising the nemesis?

In one of the more recent issues of Pb2x, the nemesis was advertised, could the same penalties apply for people advertising (promoting in a way?) the nemesis?

Trey,

JT2002

09-30-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by shartley

Sorry, you just contradicted yourself... but oh well.... ;)
well now that we know it is in fact illegal, i just thought id use that term, since we now know for sure, and its not speculation. so as for contradicting myself? no not really. i only said "i never said it was illegal" because i too didnt know if it was illegal or not ;)

manike

09-30-2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by JT2002
in other words i should just sell my angel now. :D know
anyone in want of a nice speed? :rolleyes: :D
sry for double post

how much lighter could they get lol

Up to you :D . I will just say that the new 2K4 is going to be the lightest and smallest timmy yet.

manike

09-30-2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by freek133
Manike said that anyone selling the nemesis will be no longer able to sell any nps product, what about people advertising the nemesis?

In one of the more recent issues of Pb2x, the nemesis was advertised, could the same penalties apply for people advertising (promoting in a way?) the nemesis?

hhmm very interesting point. I'm going to have to check my sources on that.

I know it was advertised in facefull. Didn't know it had been advertised in PB2X. That sounds strange to me... not something I would have expected to see happening... considering who owns PB2X... :D

JT2002

09-30-2003, 03:07 PM

and compared to a speed? :D cmon manike make me wanna jump the gun now! :D lol. anyone who wants a speed, hit me up

manike

09-30-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by JT2002

well now that we know it is in fact illegal, i just thought id use that term, since we now know for sure, and its not speculation. so as for contradicting myself? no not really. i only said "i never said it was illegal" because i too didnt know if it was illegal or not ;)

The term illegal is a bit broad and maybe not the best descriptive term to be used here. They are doing nothing inherently illegal in making and selling the Nemesis as far as I am aware currently (although considering all the patents currently being banded about, that may not be strictly true... since I don't know if they have a licence from SP etc).

However it is not a licenced or approved copy of the timmy as far as I am aware either. I used the term illgal knock off to mean that they didn't have permission to make it. It may be illegal under trade dress and passing off laws, but not sure about that. It's not something I have dealt with very much.

freek133

09-30-2003, 03:12 PM

oh, oh, whoops... very sorry about that, yes it was a facefull that was advertising the nemesis... I have waaaay too many magazines.

Sorry again for the slip up,

manike

09-30-2003, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by freek133
oh, oh, whoops... very sorry about that, yes it was a facefull that was advertising the nemesis... I have waaaay too many magazines.

Sorry again for the slip up,

OK :D That's a very different issue.

JT2002

09-30-2003, 03:15 PM

manike, can you tell any bit of a time frame when we will be seeing whta these new timmys look like? as i dont want to sell my angel and miss a tourny or 2 because i was waiting for a timmy

manike

09-30-2003, 03:21 PM

I'm not a good person to ask about release dates. I just help design/make some of the stuff. Someone else does the rest :D.

I believe the Empire gun will be available at and just after World Cup, Nov 1st is official intended release for it.

2K4 will probably make a debut at World Cup, but I don't know if they will be on sale then.

JT2002

09-30-2003, 03:23 PM

heh, damn. wonder what it looks like. so manike what do u do that gets you in contact wiht bob and all these ppl, and gets you empire timmys b4 release and such? j/w :D

and also manike, are they putting the new reg housings on hte empires? looks liek the old ones in all teh pics empire has on the site

manike

09-30-2003, 03:29 PM

Err... doesn't this give it away a bit ;)

Originally posted by manike
I just help design/make some of the stuff.

I've done CAD modelling and CNC coding on some of the new timmy stuff.

2K4 looks VERY sharp and futuristic. I think some are gonna love it, and some are gonna hate it. (That's life!) It's very striking. I didn't design the 2K4 body, but I did help with a new grip frame to match it and which has some nice touches I think. I'm rather looking forward to seeing a finished one myself.

NOTE to Heat, sorry for such a huge thread jacking. :D I hope your concerns got answered.

Empire's will have new reg housing and front LPR. All current pics of the Empire have the new reg housing but old front LPR due to the prototypes not being finished in time.

JT2002

09-30-2003, 03:34 PM

yes same here sorry, just really interested in the new timmys. now if manike only owned one like the empire, or had a release date :D

manike

09-30-2003, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by JT2002
now if manike only owned one like the empire,

What you mean like this prototype one in my hand? ;)

Production gun will be quite different to the prototype 2K4 I have right now. Sorry no more info or pictures available. :D

JT2002

09-30-2003, 04:35 PM

omg manike your killing me. im gonnna have to meet up with u at BIG GAME 2004 in LI, heard u were there earlier this year, didnt find u. im gonna hop on jet blue right now and come kik me some brit a$$ ! :eek: :rolleyes: ;) :D . lol i hate you manike. hopefully ill win the 150 million mega millions tonight and buy out bob long :D

Ripper machinist

09-30-2003, 07:00 PM

Me and manike been working really close on the new grip for the 2k4. After cutting one and holding it. I love it more and more.

As for 2k4 stuff, Me and neil from bobs shop tested the gun with the ballistics tester. With a stock hammer in a new ram sleeve and the new reg. We where getting 65 psi cocking pressure with 165 psi ball pressure to shoot 290 fps. With neil on trigger he was spraying balls like no tomorrow. I think he did a average of 15 bps with a standard deviation of 3. Basicaly we where seeing awesome consistancy of fps at high rate of fire. With near 0 drop off at peak bps. So the regs where holding steady at high end, the ram sleeve was more efficient. And the new ram cap was helping push the hammer consistant at high feed.

But I cant share pictures till after world cup 8)

Jim

JT2002

09-30-2003, 07:06 PM

can u email em to me day of world cup? :D any idea on pricing?

magsRus

09-30-2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Mabe this way my LCD will actually be worth something...

...LOL yeah same with my Dark LCD

bornl33t

09-30-2003, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by manike
NOTE to Heat, sorry for such a huge thread jacking. :D I hope your concerns got answered.

np mate, I accomplished what I wanted with the thread. I wanted ppl to talk about SP and what the future of paintball is going to look like. I had no intension of responding to anything that's happend till now. Just wanted to see the reaction. But just for the record I think you and me are on the same page. And the rest... is just cool to read.

Tuff

09-30-2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Webmaster
This is all kinda silly.

NO WAY will WDP pull out of the US market. It would be like McDonalds not selling hamburgers anymore!

I agree. While SP is really screwing up the flow of the market and making changes that will last years to come, they aren't going to eventually just shut every company down like some people seem to think.

jwren00

09-30-2003, 11:07 PM

Shartley-

You argue more than anyone else on AO. I'm tired of reading all of your posts. I feel like i find you in every single thread i read, trying to prove your point.

I see that you started posting on this thread at 7 in the morning, and continued your non-stop posting throughout the entire day. Do you do anything besides piss off AO'ers? SETTLE DOWN.

kenndogg

10-01-2003, 12:07 AM

Shartley, I would like to thank you for ruining this thread. You single handedly turned this into some technical mumbo jumbo crap. The truth of the matter is nobody cares; stop trying to prove your point and make others feel insuperior. I WANT to hear the "what ifs" and the "rumors" not your mindless ramblings. Lets keep this thread entertaining not boring.

manike

10-01-2003, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by Ripper machinist
Me and manike been working really close on the new grip for the 2k4. After cutting one and holding it. I love it more and more.

http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif Woot! Can't wait to see it in person also.

Originally posted by Ripper machinist
As for 2k4 stuff, Me and neil from bobs shop tested the gun with the ballistics tester. With a stock hammer in a new ram sleeve and the new reg. We where getting 65 psi cocking pressure with 165 psi ball pressure to shoot 290 fps. With neil on trigger he was spraying balls like no tomorrow. I think he did a average of 15 bps with a standard deviation of 3. Basicaly we where seeing awesome consistancy of fps at high rate of fire. With near 0 drop off at peak bps. So the regs where holding steady at high end, the ram sleeve was more efficient. And the new ram cap was helping push the hammer consistant at high feed.

Told ya more good stuff was coming! http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

:D :D :D Can't wait to try out all the lovely new goodness at World Cup. If allowed I'll get pictures at World Cup for everyone else. http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Bob seems to think I am quite quick on the trigger (he likes me giving demo's) and with my Empire gun I have hit a consistant 18bps (usually I pull about 17 with it). I can't wait to see if with all the new stuff, and my sound Halo B, I can break the magical 20bps in semi! I'm thinking it might be possible...

p.s. Guys I think the Shartley issue has been done to death now.

P.P.S. I spoke to John Rice (Technical Director at WDP) a couple of weeks ago and he said they will fight to the end if required. So I seriously doubt they would ever pull out on sales from the USA.

JT2002

10-01-2003, 01:45 PM

so manike know anyone who wants to buy a speed? :D

JT2002

10-04-2003, 05:53 AM

hrm manike... :D http://www.cnc-machining.com/prototype/2k4/2k4-1.jpg

trading my speed for an lcd trix next week, then sellin the trix, as it is only got like 700 dryfire shots, the i save for that :D

DK1

10-04-2003, 03:33 PM

interestingly enough, since pharmaceuticals were brought up. It should be noted that the process under which drug patents are extended has been a controversy because of it's misuse. Take for instance, Nexium and Prilosec. The patent on Prilosec has ended, and it's creators came up with Nexium and got the patent to cover Prilosec. Problem is, Nexium is simply the isomer of Prilosec, and it was a big court case over if generic Prilosec would be able to be manufactured. After all, that is the purpose of pharm. patents, to make their inventors rich, and then get the product to market cheaply after that. People don't want medication to be out of the reach of the poor.

The UK's courts denied the patent on Nexium, the US granted it.

Basically, they re-patented the chemical isomer of what they'd already enjoyed the patent on. It was a big stink, and now they are trying to convince people to switch to Nexium because it's "better" even though it's basically the same. From what I've read, the isomer has no inherent benefits over the original.

A biochemist in a marketing class I took went over it last fall, interesting stuff...

DK1

10-04-2003, 05:21 PM

Didnt WDP apply for a patient on the LCD screen? I remember everyone and his brother havign a fit about the possibility of lawsuits from WDP.

jb

JT2002

10-05-2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by DK1
interestingly enough, since pharmaceuticals were brought up. It should be noted that the process under which drug patents are extended has been a controversy because of it's misuse. Take for instance, Nexium and Prilosec. The patent on Prilosec has ended, and it's creators came up with Nexium and got the patent to cover Prilosec. Problem is, Nexium is simply the isomer of Prilosec, and it was a big court case over if generic Prilosec would be able to be manufactured. After all, that is the purpose of pharm. patents, to make their inventors rich, and then get the product to market cheaply after that. People don't want medication to be out of the reach of the poor.

The UK's courts denied the patent on Nexium, the US granted it.

Basically, they re-patented the chemical isomer of what they'd already enjoyed the patent on. It was a big stink, and now they are trying to convince people to switch to Nexium because it's "better" even though it's basically the same. From what I've read, the isomer has no inherent benefits over the original.

A biochemist in a marketing class I took went over it last fall, interesting stuff...

DK1
hrm im in AP Bio :D i beleive that means its basically the same things, except the molecules are arranged slightly different correct? i dont have that 1000 page txt book on hand right now so... :eek: :rolleyes: ;) :D

cockermongol

10-08-2003, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by MicroMiniMe
Don't US patents only last seven years? I mean if worse case scenario and they 'win', just wait seven and pass on paying royalties.

Originally posted by shartley

I think that if folks look, they will find that there is a wide range of cooperation between just about every industrialized nation, concerning copyrights, trademarks, and patents.

This is off http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/whatis.htm

A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the inventor, issued by the Patent and Trademark Office. The term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed, subject to the payment of maintenance fees. US patent grants are effective only within the US, US territories, and US possessions.

The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the statute and of the grant itself, “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States or “importing” the invention into the United States. What is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, selling or importing the invention.