My Emag was oddly efficient...

[iownamag]

Hello all, I have an emag with retro valve and some other goodies, you can check it out in my sig if you want, and I use a nitro duck adjustable 68/45 tank with it. Last weekend when I was playing I got one fill to roughly 4000 psi and I shot about 1400-1500 rounds before I got it filled again and even then the gauge still read about 1000 psi and it was still goin strong. Is it just me or is that kinda strange? I guess it could be cuz I'm used to using a 45/45, but even so it seems like a lot of shots to get out of a tank especially on a gun which I always thought of as a gas hog... for instance my friend has a mechanical mag with retro valve, norise, etc. and he has a 68/3295 (thats right, I said 3295 psi.) and he only gets about $500 shots out of that tank. :confused:

[Dayspring]

Level 10?

[iownamag]

yup, course ;) . Could that be it? all my other mags and my friends mag have had/has lvl 10's as well...

[RobAGD]

I posted up a run down of what to expect in Automags and barrels with tanks in a post in Workbench. Its near the top.

-Robert

[pito189]

What is your output set at. I run my at 600 psi, and get at least 7-8 pods and a hopper on a 4000 psi fill.

[Trauma]

I hear that the input should be at least 800 psi :confused:

[Mossman]

Originally posted by Trauma
I hear that the input should be at least 800 psi :confused:
yea, that's true, if you want reactivity and a decent trigger in manual. The lower you can run it without hurting performance in electro mode, however, the better your efficiency can be.

LP FOR LIFE BABY

[pito189]

Originally posted by Trauma
I hear that the input should be at least 800 psi :confused:

Thats the recommended input pressure. But if you read the manual, it says anywhere from 600-800psi is just fine. I only use my E-Mag in E-Mode anyways so I doesn't matter if I get trigger bounce or not.

Personally even if I am shooting in manual, I want to be pulling the trigger, not having it bounce on me.

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by Mossman
The lower you can run [the input pressure] without hurting performance in electro mode, however, the better your efficiency can be.

please explain this...

[pito189]

Originally posted by Kevmaster


please explain this...

Because if you are only running 600 psi into the gun instead of 800 psi. You are saving air with each shot? Over the course of an enitre tank. That 200 psi difference in each shot begins to add up.

[BajaBoy]

Originally posted by pito189


Because if you are only running 600 psi into the gun instead of 800 psi. You are saving air with each shot? Over the course of an enitre tank. That 200 psi difference in each shot begins to add up.


but it uses the same volum of air..

[pito189]

Your putting out less pressure though. Take your adjustable put the pressure at 800psi and let it drain out. Then take it and put it at 600psi and let it drain out. Which one takes longer?

This has always been my understanding of it.

[speeddemon]

tank pressure doesn't matter, even if you drop it down to 600 instead of 800, then the mags internal reg drops the pressure to around 400 no matter what the input pressure is. So the only thing that dropping the input pressure does is slow the recharge rate of the gun down.

Input pressure won't do anything (well maybe a bit if your shooting really fast, but you won't notice it) for efficiency.

[iownamag]

I read Rob's post about it and found that it was mainly due to my using the stock emag barrel, and my tank was set at 800psi so I don't think that effected it much.

Speeddemon- I'm pretty sure your not correct on that one, because if that's the case then how come when people turn the pressure up to like 1000psi they can bounce it like crazy? I'm pretty sure it works like this... the pressure goes in from tank, the pressure goes through on/off valve at whatever it is going into the valve at, and then the pressure is regulated between then and the bolt. Other wise with a level 10 the whole gun would be running on 80 psi and I just don't think that'd work. If it can't push a bolt hard enough to break a paintball it would make for an awfully soupy trigger.

[speeddemon]

It is impossible to reg the air after the on/off valve, because it leads straight into the dump chamber, which of course is regulated air. So the dump chamber is filled with air regulated to about 400 or so psi. Look at the diagram of the valve. And if the valve is between the on/off and the dump chamber, then what is in the rest of the valve in the back?

[Spartan X]

It would kind of make sense
Because if the air was regulated before the on/off, why would the input affect the reactivity???

[Kevmaster]

yeh, i've yet to see one good reason why the pressure of the air, before it is turned down to 400psi makes a difference in how many shots a marker gets. If the 2nd reg turns it down to 0psi, then no air ever comes out regardless if the 1st reg is at 600psi or 800psi. Its the same thing with the 400psi reg

[Mossman]

Originally posted by Kevmaster
yeh, i've yet to see one good reason why the pressure of the air, before it is turned down to 400psi makes a difference in how many shots a marker gets. If the 2nd reg turns it down to 0psi, then no air ever comes out regardless if the 1st reg is at 600psi or 800psi. Its the same thing with the 400psi reg


Hrmm kev, I dunno. Since the unregulated air that works the on/off eventually goes into the dump chamber, right?

All i know is that i've heard people get better efficiency with emags and Retro mechanical mags, the lower they ran their input, at the expense of a reactive trigger.

The air that actuates the on/off assembly (unregulated, that's why higher inputs make more reactive triggers), does get regulated and is used to shoot a ball right? Or is it released out of the on/off in some way i can't notice/hear or understand? :)

[speeddemon]

OMG people. Go and look at the RT valve diagram now. Don't bother posting again until you do. The on/off valve is the absolute last thing the air hits until it gets into the dump chamber. Input pressure will not do anything to effiency, its simple math. To get a paintball to 300fps using a dump chamber it takes X volume of air at Y pressure. The air in the dump chamber is regulated. Input pressure can't change anything about efficiency.

The air is input in the valve close to the on/off, so that initially as air is coming into the valve, unregulated air hits the on/off. As the valve fills up, the air balances through the valve, and the regulator closes off the entire valve to air. Its not like an inline reg feeding into the on/off valve then to the dump chamber, its all kind of mashed together.

[athomas]

The front chamber is always at a set pressure determined by the valve regulator no matter what the input pressure to the regulator is.

For example, the front regulated pressure is typically around 400psi to produce 280fps. This is based on the volume of the front chamber and the rate at which the air can flow out the front of the bolt when it is forward. These factors are not at all affected by the rate of recharge or the input pressure. The volume is always the same and the bolt system is always the same. Therefore if the chamber pressure is always the same(and it is because of the reg), then the volume of air use to produce a shot is always the same. The input pressure could be 600psi or 1200psi and the chamber will still be regulated down to 400psi producing the same velocity using the same volume of air.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Could heat be the answer? Ie the air releases more heat @ 800 psi than 600 psi?

Az

[pito189]

So if the valve only uses 400psi, where does the other 400psi go if you have your input at 800psi?

[athomas]

Heat has an effect on the shootup or 1st shot drop-off depending on how you look at it. I don't think that the valve heat affects the efficiency. The gases loose heat as they decompress and gain heat when they recompress. The front chamber has gas that compresses from ~50 psi to about 400psi. This happens as the tank loses only a few psi because the tank volume. The heat that the tank loses is hardly noticed. The heat that the front chamber gains is noticed because of the higher heat value due to the large increase in pressure.

Pito189, the other 400psi is blocked by the regulator built into the retro valve. 800 psi is the regulated output from the air bottle. 400psi is the regulated output from the retro valve regulator. As soon as the pressure in the front chamber reaches the desired set value, the regulator closes off the air passage that feeds the chamber.

The final psi value is always the same once the process of recharging the front chamber is complete.

[pito189]

So the other 400psi is blocked until you shoot. So then the blocked 400psi comes into the valve. So that means that the valve blocks 800 psi next time? Then 1200psi the shoot after that and so on and so on...

That doesn't make sense to me.

[speeddemon]

Yeah thats it:rolleyes:
Read this.

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/regulators/howtheywork/index.shtml

[pito189]

speeddemon was does that have to do with anything?

So if air could be supplied to the valve instantly, the Automag would run at 400psi?

[speeddemon]

Originally posted by pito189
speeddemon was does that have to do with anything?

So if air could be supplied to the valve instantly, the Automag would run at 400psi?

Uh, you were asking how the mag valve works, and since the mag valve is a regulator, I gave you this link to show how a regulator works. Basically a mag is made up of a regulator going to a dump chamber.

[pito189]

So if air could be supplied to the valve instantly, the Automag would run at 400psi?

[athomas]

Originally posted by pito189
So the other 400psi is blocked until you shoot. So then the blocked 400psi comes into the valve. So that means that the valve blocks 800 psi next time? Then 1200psi the shoot after that and so on and so on...

That doesn't make sense to me.


The regulator output on the bottle shuts off(blocks) the flow when the pressure at the output reaches 800psi, which is the preset output pressure. If you were to measure the psi in the line between the bottle and the retro valve, it would be 800psi. It will always be close to 800psi. The regulator on the bottle will allow flow to top it up if it gets below that value.

The regulator on the retro valve shuts off (blocks) the flow to the front chamber when the chamber pressure reaches ~400spi. The pressure in the chamber will always be 400psi if the on/off is open. The regulator on the valve will allow flow to top it up if it gets below that value due to a leak or something else.

[pito189]

Thanks for the good explanation athomas.

[athomas]

A regular AIR valve can be made to run off a variable output tank set at the proper chamber pressure to allow the desired velocity. This is if the valve regulator is removed/bypassed. So, yes a valve can be made to run off a 400psi supply if it can be supplied in a timely manor.

[pito189]

Cool.

That could be a goal for someone making an tank.

[iownamag]

And this is what happens why my internet is down and I don't check on my post for a weekend... :rolleyes: . lol.

[pito189]

Shuuddduppp thats why you shouldn't let your internet go down. ;)

[iownamag]

bah! I wasn't complaining, just pointing it out. You guys can continue your little arguement thing... :cool:

[pito189]

Originally posted by iownamag
bah! I wasn't complaining, just pointing it out. You guys can continue your little arguement thing... :cool:

It was more of speeddemon and athomas showing me my ignorance.

Guess I'm just dumb.

[speeddemon]

Hey, we're just here to help;) :D