X-Valve not giving any trigger kick

[rav3nware]

I put an X-Valve on my Micromag not too long ago, and while I've got the Level 10 working pretty reliably, my trigger isn't kicking like an RT valve should. What could be causing this? I am using a preset 48ci 3000psi Pure Energy tank, with a Benchmark double trigger frame.

[rav3nware]

I was just reading a thread by someone having the same problem as me - in case anyone would ask, my air's running through the Benchmark expansion chamber grip that comes stock on the micromag.

[ChucktheMAGician]

There is probably a different length on/off pin in the X-Valve than what was in your Retro, especially if it came w/ the Micro.

[havoc531]

Get an adjustable tank ands increase the input. Around 850 psi is ideal.

[rav3nware]

From what I've heard, the XValves are pretty much identical to the Retros except a) they come w/ the Level 10 already on 'em, and b) they're made of aluminum instead of steel.

Thanks for the tip, though. Someone else has suggested that to me as well, so next time I'm at the field I'll try to find someone who wouldn't mind letting me use their adjustable tank for a moment.

[rav3nware]

One more question though, will the Benchy expansion chamber foregrip restrict my recharge rate any? The benefit's obvious with C02, but now that I'm running HPA is there even any point to having the expansion chamber? any input appreciated.

[TSalPaintball]

There really isnt a point of having it, but it shouldent slow down the recharge rate at all.

[ChucktheMAGician]

If it's the stock foregrip that comes w/ Micromags it's just a gas thru. I'd leave it if you already have the hoses run.

[Eric Cartman]

Sounds like you just need to up the input pressure to the gun as havoc531 said. Between 850 and 950 works best for me. That being said, my brother just put his X valve into his mag (he's got a Benchmark grip frame as well). Even running at the same psi as my gun, his just doesn't feel "right". I wonder if the sloppiness of the Benchmark frame makes the reactivity feel less?

Cheers.

[ChucktheMAGician]

Originally posted by rav3nware
From what I've heard, the XValves are pretty much identical to the Retros except a) they come w/ the Level 10 already on 'em, and b) they're made of aluminum instead of steel.

I was gonna comment on this earlier but didn't have the time. Using info found in this thread http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67604 I assumed that the on/off in MicroRT valves would be shorter than that found in Retro or X-Valves. BlackVCG lists the Micro-E quite shorter than the E-Mags. From that I would think that all Retro/X-Valves running on a Micro body would need to be a little shorter to get the same results as the same valve and on/off set-up in a standard mag rail.

[trxtr]

one more vote for pin length. Micro's are known for tolerance issues.

[Z-man]

also be aware of the output pressure of your tank. That has a DRAMATIC effect on the bounce of the RT.

[blakdragon21]

what do you mean z-man? I want my gun to rip like yours:D . so us the light z-man.

[Z-man]

I should just make a general post on all this :-)

So you want to rapidfire your RT and X-Valved Mags huh? Well here is the basic formula for doing so:

Prerequisites: An AutoMag with a working RT valve (RT, RT Pro, E-Mag, E-Max, X-Valve). You will also need a motorized hopper, and I recommend that you get a force feed one like a Halo B or EggII is suggested as rapidfire can easily reach 20+bps (which no revvy will hope to do).

1). An adjustable, high flow rate HPA tank.

This is the big one. The key to working with the RT valve and adjusting the reactivity of the trigger lies ENTIRELY in what pressure you have set the tank to put out and how well it is able to sustain that pressure at high flow rates. Remember that when you are shooting 20+ a second, its almost like opening the valve and venting air and many regulators are not able to keep up.

2). High input pressure.

This is of course, tied right into #1. The higher the input pressure the RT valve gets, the harder it bounces back at you when you fire it. now people talk about 850psi and 900psi as the pressures to go for and that is true in general but it’s really a case by case issue. Each regulator performs a bit differently and what works for one, will not cut it for another. The best way is to raise the input pressure in small steps, testing it out each time. When you get around 1000psi, you will notice that the rapidfire starts to wear off, which makes sense as the tank is getting too low for us gas hog Mags.

I currently run 88ci 4500 Max-Flow tanks on both my RT’s and they begin to get into rapidfire around 850psi. My old OLD 68ci 3000 Flatline did not get it going till around 950-1000psi. I hear that Dyna-Flow tanks are also well liked for this and the reviews claim that the new Air America Reg is UBER pimp for this but I have not seen any 1st hand data on this. I also see many people posting about the Flatlines being good at it too. My experience was with an older 3000psi model so I cannot speak on it.

3). A double trigger / blade trigger.

This is not truly a MUST but I mention it as its very helpful. The double trigger offers you more control of the rapidfire and, (I think) in general shooting. Since the trigger on the AutoMag is nothing more than pushing a pin in that opens a valve, how slowly you are able to push it in will dictate how easily you can hit that “sweetspot” where the gun rapidfires. Imagine if the trigger was 10 feet long and you were pulling it from the bottom slowly; you would have a HUGE degree of control over how far the pin was pushed in and you could hold that position much easier. Though an exaggeration, this is the case with the single vs. double trigger. I could rapidfire my RT with my old stock trigger but it was hard to apply the right pressure and hold it for long. With my blade trigger, it is MUCH easier.

I found that holding the trigger at the “corner” above the bottom curve of the blade (was that not clear?) is the ideal place to pull from. I also suggest you try using 1 finger as you want to be consistent in your pressure. The higher the input pressure on into the gun, the easier and “stronger” the rapidfire will feel. And of course all you have to do to stop (if you got on a nice long string) is to:

A- let go

B-Pull the rest of the way

and that is really it!

Bonus Extra/Advanced Things to Try-

If/ when you get this working consistently and you are getting pretty pro at it, you can get trick by controlling the SPEED of the rapidfire. Since the pressure of the air refilling the valve is what pushes your finger back

A lighter finger pressure = faster rapidfire

and

A harder finger pressure = slower rapidfire

Upper limits of the rapidfire I estimate yo be 25-27bps but it is not possible to test as the loading systems are not able to perform. My video in my sig shows the highest that I think is currently possible 22-22bps. I have not timed the slower rapidfire but I think I can get it as slow as around 12-13bps. It’s pretty neat to do but you heave to have a good “feel” of your trigger to do it but its something to try. Ill get a video of it up sometime.

Questions? comments?

[rav3nware]

I've gotten a bunch of replies on the on/off pin length issue... if that is something that I need to adjust, how do I go about getting that fixed? Is this something I would need to send my mag in to a professional to get done?

[Z-man]

Originally posted by Y-Grip
Most preset tanks put out 850 psi or 800, so you wouldn't really be getting anywhere by switching to adjustable. Unless you wanted to try 900 psi or above.

Not so. What many people are do not understand is that although most regulators can adjust or are set around 800-900 psi, the have different FLOW RATES

The flow rate is how quickly a regulator can refill the air chamber of the marker after a shot is fired. While a preset tank may output 850psi, it may not be able to maintain a pressure of 850 psi when the marker is shooting very fast (we call it shootdown). High end adjustable tanks typicaly have MUCH better flow rates and are able to keep the set output pressure even when you are shooting 20+ bps.

Output pressure AND flow rate will determine the feel of the trigger and the bounce you are looking for.

[ChucktheMAGician]

Originally posted by rav3nware
I've gotten a bunch of replies on the on/off pin length issue... if that is something that I need to adjust, how do I go about getting that fixed? Is this something I would need to send my mag in to a professional to get done?
They sell different lengths in the store, or at least used to. I just checked, they used to have a drop down which allowed you to pick between 3-4 sizes, it may still be there but I couldn't find it.

[Thourne]

They only advertise/have links for the .765 and .750 length pins, but if you need another link you can call AGD directly and order another pin length.

[rav3nware]

Well, what length should a MicroMag use?

[rav3nware]

One other thing - to whoever said the standard grip with the Micro was just a gas through, either you're incorrect, or my Micro didn't come with the standard foregrip 'cause that's most definitely a benchy expansion grip. I did a little experiment (which started this whole discussion actually :) ) of unscrewing the grip and screwing my tank directly into the grip's adapter, and after removing the exp. grip from the gas path I did feel more bounce when I dryfired it. Still not as much as I'd like, but it made a difference. So, now I've got a Dye gas-thru sitting on my desk waiting to go on my gun, and that Smart Parts MaxFlo air system I've been wanting so long is UPSing its way to me as we speak.

As far as the benchy frame goes, I have noticed that it's very "sloppy" as someone else put it. If it's still interfering with my trigger kick after the air system adjustments and the new on/off pin people keep talking about, I'll just save up some more money and put a Logic frame on it.

Heh... it's a good thing I love my Mag so much. I don't think I'd be putting this much time, effort, and MUNNY into it otherwise, and that'd just be such a shame ;)