View Full Version : Are bottles SUPPOSED to unscrew from regs?
cris8762
10-10-2003, 04:47 PM
Well, i accidentally screwed my centerflag 68/45 preset on too tight and when i went to unscrew it the bottle came unscrewed from the reg!
this alarmed me so i called the company that hydroed my tank, and they said they dont use loctite on the regs and that it was normal....this alarmed me somewhat because now my bottle unscrews much easier than it did b4
is this normal?
can i loctite it on to make sure it stays on?
also, if there is air in it, will it be much less likely to unscrew?
thanks,
cris
Yeah it can happen, DO NOT USE LOCTITE!! = bad bad idea !
yup tighten it by hand pretty snug and the air will make sure it wont unscrew, i wouldn't worry too much.
DiRTyBuNNy
10-10-2003, 04:50 PM
I don't know what anyone else says, (and you know the old cliche about opinions)...but both of my MaxFlo's and my Angel AiR did that. I asked about that and they acted like it wasn't a big deal...so I don't know what to tell you.
Some people will say just to be safe take it to an airsmith to have the valve put back on but it is safe enough to just screw it back on by hand and it should be fine.
CrazyLad
10-10-2003, 05:06 PM
one of my friends tank did that but he just got a lot of superglue and tephlon tape and it works fine now!
tony3
10-10-2003, 05:08 PM
I wouldnt feel safe with my tank with 3000psi be able to uscrew by hand...but im assuming as long as you have air in it, it wont unscrew
Originally posted by CrazyLad
one of my friends tank did that but he just got a lot of superglue and tephlon tape and it works fine now!
Another thing you should never USE!!! You should not use teflon tape or superglue, thats not a good thing
QUINCYMASSGUY
10-10-2003, 05:24 PM
Now, I'm curious, why wouldn't just a dab of non-permenant loctite be fine, just to lock it down while unpressurized?
I have been wanting to change my tank but keep the reg for a while, but I can't find a 68/3000 carbon fiber body that isn't about 10 bucks less expensive than buying it with a reg, it's crazy.
iownamag
10-10-2003, 06:00 PM
Yea I agree that the pressure when it is filled will keep it super tight, you shouldn't have to worry about it.
And what the heck would make someone think putting super glue on their tank would be a good idea???????? I could see if a newb thought of teflon tape... but glue!!!!! eegag!
MarkM
10-10-2003, 06:10 PM
Ok, unfortunately the pics are now missing but read this thread and then think if you really want to put thread lock on a reg.
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88698
afrankart
10-10-2003, 06:13 PM
Anything more than 50 psi in your tank and you won't be able to unscrew the tank by hand. No worries, At 3000 psi, you wouldn't be able to get it off with anything.
cris8762
10-10-2003, 06:36 PM
thanks for all ur help guys
i was just kinda worried when it came off, i was like "OMG I BROKED IT!":D ;)
Do NOT use loctite or superglue! When the tank gets hydro'd they (or you) will need to unscrew the bottle from the reg.
Why not use a little loctite/superglue/teflon tape? 1) You don't need it if there is pressure in the tank (already stated) 2) If it does get stuck and require heavier tools for removal, you may damage the threading.
This should not be an issue since you keep your tank pressurized all the time... Right? Without pressure in the tank, you allow water, dust, smurfs, whatever into the tank. If I'm not mistaken you need to keep the tank pressurized according to DOT specs. (Yes, I know transporting while pressurized is a no-no).
Use a small amount of BLUE (non-permanent) Loctite. As long as it has had time to cure, it will not get into the reg.
Originally posted by lew
Use a small amount of BLUE (non-permanent) Loctite. As long as it has had time to cure, it will not get into the reg.
or how about none at all because its not needed? yeah thats what i thought
nospmas311
10-10-2003, 10:50 PM
I sent my tank to hydrotesters.com or yodaworks, whatever that site was in Washington. They told me to put the reg back on witha drop of red loc-tite so I did. Am I now screwed? My tank works fine...
Originally posted by nospmas311
I sent my tank to hydrotesters.com or yodaworks, whatever that site was in Washington. They told me to put the reg back on witha drop of red loc-tite so I did. Am I now screwed? My tank works fine...
Putting on loctite is bad in a way because when you have to take the reg off again you really risk stripping the threads...
Nachos
10-10-2003, 11:05 PM
The threads on the regulator have a hole so when you un-screw it to that point the hole will vent out the air in the tank before the reg comes apart from the bottle and becoming a rocket.
But it will be venting at 3000 or so psi.. that can't be good, lol
Shane-O-Mac
10-10-2003, 11:31 PM
putting a drop or 2 of BLUE loc-tite will not harm anything. for me it is just a little bit of insurance. the only threads i have seen messed up is when someone used lots of red loc-tite. and it also depends on which red loc-tite you use! do it which ever way you want, but using BLUE will not hurt anything.
Shane-O
RobAGD
10-11-2003, 01:44 AM
OK a few things.
First on tank/regs that do not see any toritional loading ( read Twisting ) you dont need to use anything on the threads. IF you putteh reg down at 70-80ft lbs of torque its not going any where and you dont have to worry about it air bearing off.
If you have a tank that uses a preset or screw in reg, you should use some sore of a sealant along with 70-80ft lbs of torque. I use a small dab of red or blue and I mean small.
Part of the problem with locking agent is that when people try to take the regs off at a later date they do not take them off correctly and damage the tank or the reg. There is a right way to do things and a wrong and the wrong way to typically the easier way.
-Robert
Gadget
10-11-2003, 07:28 AM
I once managed to ruin a fibre-wrapped tank thanks to using too much loctite on the threads.
When fittings regs to bottles, if the reg is a non-screw in such as the flatline, Angel AIR etc, then I don't use any loctite and just screw the bottle on by hand and give it a decent twist - once there's pressure in there it's never going to move and like Rob said, they shouldn't experience any twisting - plus they tend to have much longer threads on the reg than pre-sets.
For screw-in regs (esp those with shorter threads), I use a VERY small dab of non-permenant loctite then tighten hard by hand.
Not had any nasty experiences from doing this and the bottles release fine for hydro testing.
dansim
10-11-2003, 07:34 AM
If you have a tank that uses a preset or screw in reg, you should use some sore of a sealant along with 70-80ft lbs of torque. I use a small dab of red or blue and I mean small.(rob)
Originally posted by LaW
or how about none at all because its not needed? yeah thats what i thought
hmm, a little huh yeah thats what i thought, unh huh yeah
BlackVCG
10-11-2003, 04:14 PM
I built a special tool to take off Flatline regs. and I put them back on at 35 ft-lbs.
Sweet Jesus, 75-80ft-lbs is bit excessive for even a screw-in bottle.
The real problem with using any thread locking compound is if the bottle comes back off, those bits of thread locking compound will get into the regulator and into the tank, and unless they're cleaned out properly, they can cause issues once it's reassembled.
Originally posted by BlackVCG
I built a special tool to take off Flatline regs. and I put them back on at 35 ft-lbs.
Sweet Jesus, 75-80ft-lbs is bit excessive for even a screw-in bottle.
The real problem with using any thread locking compound is if the bottle comes back off, those bits of thread locking compound will get into the regulator and into the tank, and unless they're cleaned out properly, they can cause issues once it's reassembled.
So how can I build a "special" tool? Do share!
Beemer
10-11-2003, 10:29 PM
Holy cow You guys miss the safty issue. I tried to unscrew the reg when i picked up my bottle from the hydro guy and he said youll never break it loose by hand its torqued to 70 lbs just like Rob said. These guys have to be licensed and certified to do this. The place I go to does scuba tanks and the fire department stuff.
I can see a reg blowing off right now when getting a fill cause it wasnt torqued or screwed in all the way. Law suit waiting to happen. You dont need a sealer thats why theres an o-ring and tourque specs. Get it tourqued and dont
go back to that place. No way it should be hand tight.
Play Safe
Play Fair
Beemer
afrankart
10-11-2003, 10:35 PM
Safety issue? There are threads there for God's sake. your reg will not blow off. think of threads this way,
<
>
<
>
<
When there is pressure, it pushes them together enough that there is no chance of removing it.
i like tictacs
10-11-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by afrankart
Anything more than 50 psi in your tank and you won't be able to unscrew the tank by hand. No worries, At 3000 psi, you wouldn't be able to get it off with anything.
I did. it got stuck in a max flow, because of the horrible construction. not cross threaded, just the pin was messed up. All 4500 psi went out in about 1 second. LOUD AS HELL, and there was a damn dust cloud thirty feet in the air coming from the bottom of our staging tent.
afrankart
10-11-2003, 10:40 PM
Why were you trying to unscrew a Maxflow in the first place?
Let alone a tank full of air?
TransMan
10-11-2003, 10:49 PM
I used the low strength loctite on my max-flo and it works fine i didnt put very much on it shouldnt be too hard to take it off if i need to but it keeps it from just coming off.
Beemer
10-11-2003, 11:12 PM
Ya ok specs who needs specs. Not you But AGD sends em out tourqued to specs. Gee I wonder Why No I dont I know.
PLAY SAFE
Beemer
Originally posted by Beemerson
Ya ok specs who needs specs. Not you But AGD sends em out tourqued to specs. Gee I wonder Why No I dont I know.
PLAY SAFE
Beemer
What are you trying to say there?
Beemer
10-11-2003, 11:17 PM
Hey Frankart just seen youre a machinist guess you live by specs huh
Beemer
BlackVCG
10-12-2003, 03:11 AM
AGD's torque spec is 35ft-lbs for the Flatline regs. They have a torque wrench setup with a cloth strap wrench to install/remove the bottles.
Beemer
10-12-2003, 05:07 AM
Ok maybe 70 is over kill but its still tourqued to spec not hand tight
Muzikman
10-12-2003, 09:07 AM
I agree regs should not be hand tight! This can be EXTREMELY dangerous. I have come to the conclusion that the majority of the people using HPA system do not understand the dangers involved with that high of pressure.
cris8762
10-12-2003, 12:35 PM
ok, so what should i do........
right now my bottle is hand screwed onto the reg as tight as i can get it, and i'm gonna unscrew my tank using the reg from now on
Muzikman
10-12-2003, 01:27 PM
Take it to an airsmith and tell them to put the reg on the bottle. This does not mean just any local Paintball shop, but a true airsmith. You could even take it to a dive shop.
Beemer
10-12-2003, 01:28 PM
Id go and get it torqed if I was you But Im not you
iownamag
10-13-2003, 01:33 PM
I'd just get it as tight as I could with my hands and leave it alone, because obviously none of you people realize how tight 3000 psi will make the threads.
Beemer
10-13-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by iownamag
I'd just get it as tight as I could with my hands and leave it alone, because obviously none of you people realize how tight 3000 psi will make the threads.
Obviously you dont understand safty or specs. What about when the bottle is empty? Try and get good grades. Youre not old enough for a beer
Originally posted by Muzikman
I agree regs should not be hand tight! This can be EXTREMELY dangerous. I have come to the conclusion that the majority of the people using HPA system do not understand the dangers involved with that high of pressure.
I agree to Muzikman
Muzikman
10-13-2003, 02:03 PM
The problem is that if the valve is lose and you go to fill it the threads will slam together and possibly cause a failure. Again, HPA is not as safe as people think. The people that suggest that a lose reg is safe because of the amunt of pressure that it will be under has never seen a tank go through a block wall. In HS shop class I saw a 280cu ft O2 tank that had about 2000psi go through a block wall and into the autobody shop in a split second and the wall didn't even appear to slow it down. If finlly came to rest on the frame straighting machine.
nerobro
10-13-2003, 03:52 PM
I'm ok with hand tight. Regs all have a vent on the threads designed to dump tank pressure if the tank unscrews. If the tank is unscrewed more than 1/8" it will blow the o-ring and vent in a fairly safe manner. Muzikman, you witnessed this at shatnerball last year. My 114ci maxflow vented that way.
As for screw in regs.... Those have always concerned me. I'm not worried about the tank coming off, if the tank unscrews you can look at the last paragraph to see what will happen. I'm worried about the REG unscrewing from itself. Early PMI regs did not have the locknuts you see on the new PE regs. I have a reg in my posession that unscrewed at an inopritune time. NOT a fun situation.
Though I avoid screw in tanks... in general. I have a mistrust of them.
I agree, most people in paintball have no respect for high pressure air tanks. Muzimans example is a beautiful way to show how powerfull compressed air can be. But something like that will only happen if you CRACK OFF the reg. (note that if you crack off the reg of a flatline, there's a pin that will prevent the tank from violently venting. AGD rocks :-) ) Overtightening a valve WILL cause stress fractures, and weaken the reg's mounting threads. (This IS what happened with the valve on my 114ci maxflow) Making something like muzikman's example much more likely...... Same thing about overusing loctite. that can break that mount, esepcially if a reg is reinstalled after it is removed.
BlackVCG
10-13-2003, 05:05 PM
Hand-tight is also a very subjective term.
With my Flatline removal tool, I can push the reg into the socket with it attached to a torque wrench set at 35 ft-lbs and I can get it to click, meaning it is at 35 ft-lbs just by putting both of my hands on the bottle and twisting.
MarkM
10-13-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by nerobro
As for screw in regs.... Those have always concerned me. I'm not worried about the tank coming off, if the tank unscrews you can look at the last paragraph to see what will happen. I'm worried about the REG unscrewing from itself. Early PMI regs did not have the locknuts you see on the new PE regs. I have a reg in my posession that unscrewed at an inopritune time. NOT a fun situation.
Though I avoid screw in tanks... in general. I have a mistrust of them.
Pains me to say it but why do you think Smart Parts sell the lefty threaded valve.
i like tictacs
10-13-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by afrankart
Why were you trying to unscrew a Maxflow in the first place?
Let alone a tank full of air?
You do know that they make maxflows where you can put any type of screw in tank on...right?
Tunaman
05-20-2007, 02:12 AM
AGD's torque spec is 35ft-lbs for the Flatline regs. They have a torque wrench setup with a cloth strap wrench to install/remove the bottles.25 ft lbs is the correct spec... ;)
trevorjk
05-20-2007, 02:16 AM
25 ft lbs is the correct spec... ;)
woah thread resurrection :argh:
skife
05-20-2007, 04:51 AM
where'd that come from?
behemoth
05-20-2007, 10:08 AM
Tuna is drunk-posting again...
punkncat
05-20-2007, 10:24 AM
...after almost trying to read through the some informative and some not in this thread, I am going to chime in.
One of the reasons you aren't supposed to use "thread lock" is that there is a bleed hole in the side of the reg threads that allow it to vent, should you unscrew it while pressurized. May people made the mistake of slathering on too much of the stuff stopping that hole up.
So as long as you aren't an idiot and can use the PROPER strength of "thread lock" and not put so much on , or in the wrong place, stopping up that vent, I highly suggest using it.
Helps keep your bottle from turning into a rocket.....
Beemer
05-20-2007, 10:53 AM
...after almost trying to read through the some informative and some not in this thread, I am going to chime in.
So as long as you aren't an idiot and can use the PROPER strength of "thread lock" and not put so much on , or in the wrong place, stopping up that vent, I highly suggest using it.
Helps keep your bottle from turning into a rocket.....
Well you can suggest it but it is not a good idea.
I just picked up three tanks from a local hydo place last week Regs already removed. They were surprised to see that. They wont even touch the tank any more if the reg aint removed.
Why?? He said they have loctite on them and they cant be held responsible for thread, tank or reg damage trying to remove it. These guys said NO thread lock ever and asked why they do it. If the threads get compromised your screwed he said.
One thing these guys asked was what standards we follow and who sets them.
dahoeb
05-20-2007, 11:49 AM
i had a pmi pure energy, 68/45k and i also unscrewed it by hand while it was 3/4 full of pressure. at least i would have if i didn't catch myself. The reg half unscrewed from the tank before i realized what was going on.
Since then i bought a new tank, in which the reg is also coming loose when i unscrew it from my asa. its not in the asa very tight so i don't know why all these regs are coming loose like this....it makes me pretty uneasy though.
Shane-O-Mac
05-21-2007, 05:00 PM
Well you can suggest it but it is not a good idea.
I just picked up three tanks from a local hydo place last week Regs already removed. They were surprised to see that. They wont even touch the tank any more if the reg aint removed.
Why?? He said they have loctite on them and they cant be held responsible for thread, tank or reg damage trying to remove it. These guys said NO thread lock ever and asked why they do it. If the threads get compromised your screwed he said.
One thing these guys asked was what standards we follow and who sets them.
The main reason to use a lil bit of thread locker, stems from the screw-in type regs. I have started to unscrew a bottle off a reg that was cross threaded into an asa, with 1200 psi in it. Now factor in the uneducated paintball player, that doesnt watch the tank and reg as they are unscrewing it, and you have a receipe for problems. I have seen, too many kids that will tuck the gun between their legs and then twist the tank off, thats where you can get the largest problem, this includes Co2 tanks. When used PROPERLY, the thread lock is a bit of insurance against uneducated players. I have locktited all my tanks and have NEVER had a problem removing them, but again they were installed properly. Co2 tanks ESPECIALLY need to be locktited, as their internal pressure is low enough to unscrew the tank while full. Yes we shouldn't need to locktite the tanks, but with the majority of players, it is needed. There isnt enough proper education in Paintball today. It seems as there aren't any standards that paintball actually follows, but ASTM is supposed to be one of them, along with DOT. Most scuba, and other pressure cylinder people dont have screw-in type regs, thats something paintball came up with. Tippmann was the first to manufacture the pin valve IIRC. Maybe an exemption should be made dealing with paintball HPA/Co2 tanks.
Again, If its done CORRECTLY, it isnt a problem using thread locker on tanks regs. It is good insurance though.
TheTramp
05-24-2007, 03:48 PM
I just picked up three tanks from a local hydo place last week Regs already removed. They were surprised to see that. They wont even touch the tank any more if the reg aint removed.
Why?? He said they have loctite on them and they cant be held responsible for thread, tank or reg damage trying to remove it. These guys said NO thread lock ever and asked why they do it. If the threads get compromised your screwed he said.
I have run into similar issues. I sent in three tanks and they all came back with the regs off. When I asked why I was told that the testing company saw evidence that thread locker had been used (at least one was just as it came from the mfg) so they wouldn’t take the liability of re-installing the regs. Now I just send in the tanks without the regs so there is one less thing to get lost in shipping.
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