Who really cares what smart parts is doing? [Archive]

NyxmatriX77

10-11-2003, 03:07 AM

Ok today my friend was fixing to buy a impulse but he said no no no i dont want to get one cause every one said to boycott them and they also suck and i told him that they dont suck they are very good quality guns and very reliable (sometimes) so he ended up with out a gun
What i am trying to say is that this compony is a very good one indeed but very stupid i know they may be ruining the paintball world but who give a flying Fock they have some very good guns and good quality servace but why do you want to boycott smartparts (i have read that post and everything) i can say this i really do like there guns (even thought the new shocker does have a bolt that looks like a matrix one) and i know all of you like there guns cause they are cheep eletros
what if this was AGD insted of smart parts would you boycott AGD i dont think so cause there quality of there guns and how indepth they are they stay be hind every gun or thing they make

do you really care what is happning with smartparts please post how you feel about what i said and about it in general

adam shannon

10-11-2003, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by NyxmatriX77
i know they may be ruining the paintball world

you answered your own question, case closed. Bailif whack his PP.

bornl33t

10-11-2003, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by NyxmatriX77
what if this was AGD insted of smart parts would you boycott AGD i dont think so cause there quality of there guns and how indepth they are they stay be hind every gun or thing they make

in a heart beat

RRfireblade

10-11-2003, 08:00 AM

Don't really care,will have no real effect on paintball,these things happen in big business all the time and paintball IS becoming big business and according to some of the SP dealers I'm aware of,no one seems to really be boycotting them anyway.Those that are likely were people that didn't like SP in the first place.

Jay.

SkyBoySurfer

10-11-2003, 08:29 AM

I think the whole law suite is BS

I dont see how you are able to paitint EVERY board ever made for a paintball gun.....I look at shoes....all serve the same fucintion...but have diffrent styles and preformace...

Wc Keep

10-11-2003, 09:34 AM

i could care less. i am going to continue using my freak and eliminating suckers with it cause its good stuff.

tony3

10-11-2003, 09:40 AM

I don't care, I love my impulse, and once the equalizer comes out i'll love it more. Everyone is saying OH MEH GOD BOYCOTT SP!!!111!!!except no one is really boycotting them. Sure people say they wont buy there stuff, but did they ever have an intention of getting there stuff in the first place. If i was in sp position, id do the same thing. Running a buisness is about making money, and id try to get every edge over my opponent. The whole sp patent thing seems more like its the people on teh forums going nuts. No one at my field cares...

thei3ug

10-11-2003, 09:47 AM

buying used products does not affect smart parts. unless you consider them advertisement.

RRfireblade

10-11-2003, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by thei3ug
buying used products does not affect smart parts.

Bull crap. Boycotting is Boycotting.

If your using thier stuff,your showing support.That's just a punk *** sellout,and typical of most posers saying down with Smartparts but still use thier stuff.

magmasta1234

10-11-2003, 10:39 AM

all right, We all kno smart parts suck. Their new stuff is terrible quality. I mean look at their barrels. The freak insterts warp. The aa's suck now. they r only worryin about gettin money and arent worryin about their customers. And yes companys are doing stuff to stop them. Barrel companys such as CP are stoppin makin SP threaded barrels. Everyone is slowly stopping SP. They used to make GREAT stuff. I have one of their old Big Daddys and it is about as accurate of a barrel as ive ever shot. The new AA's have terrible groupings. and cost as much or even more than awesome barrels like boomys. Smart Parts SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: You all kno it and shouldnt buy anything new from them. Not just because the law suits but B/C their products are S**t.

tony3

10-11-2003, 10:52 AM

I suggest you delete your post so you dont look like a complete idiot.

Guess what buddy, my imp has NEVER broken. Some people still dont understand you need to take care of guns if you want them to work. My rt went down a lot. I never knew if it was going to be leaking for no good reason. I lubed that gun beyond belief and went through 4 parts kits with it. I loved the rt, but the reliablity wasn't there. My imp on the other hand is amazing. Quiet, accurate, fast, and reliable. Best gun I have owned.

Timmee

10-11-2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by NyxmatriX77
Ok today my friend was fixing to buy a impulse but he said no no no i dont want to get one cause every one said to boycott them and they also suck and i told him that they dont suck they are very good quality guns and very reliable (sometimes) so he ended up with out a gun
What i am trying to say is that this compony is a very good one indeed but very stupid i know they may be ruining the paintball world but who give a flying Fock they have some very good guns and good quality servace but why do you want to boycott smartparts (i have read that post and everything) i can say this i really do like there guns (even thought the new shocker does have a bolt that looks like a matrix one) and i know all of you like there guns cause they are cheep eletros
what if this was AGD insted of smart parts would you boycott AGD i dont think so cause there quality of there guns and how indepth they are they stay be hind every gun or thing they make

do you really care what is happning with smartparts please post how you feel about what i said and about it in general

From what I've heard, the Impulse has FSDO (First Shot Drop Off) when it doesn't have an LPR. I don't know if that is true or not though, seeing as I've never owned one. However, I do know that Bushmasters are a very good marker, that operate on the same basic principle, with the exception of the BM2K having an LPR (and they don't have FSDO). They're in a similar price range as the Imp, too.

tony3

10-11-2003, 11:23 AM

I have worked on 3 completely stock imps within the last week, They all had fsdo. Fire one shot before the game, and you are fine for the whole game. This was with all three.

mag-hatter

10-11-2003, 11:46 AM

yeah does it really matter what your first shot does? jesus! the cool thing about imps is that they come out of the box really fast, and a little lighter than a mag. not only are they lighter than mags, but they are obviously faster for just a little more money. beyond that, you have the option of upgrading the internals and putting extra stuff on it to make it super gas efficient unlike mags. heck, yesterday i upped my shots/tank by like 50-60 just from filling the hammer cap with glue!!!!!! its so easy to upgrade these things! not only are they easy to upgrade, but they are easy to fieldstrip!! no unscrewing something in the middle of the game, just pull a pin and the bolt falls out. strait shot through the gun and you're back in business. i don't see why people are refusing to buy the guns because they are wonderful!!!!!! this whole mess is making the resale of impulses go way down which is not fair. most of these people got their guns before sp even thought about sueing. because of ignorance in the paintball world, the people who bought impulses a little while back are now going to suffer the consequences. how would you like if there was some scandal with mags where tom tried taking someone down for an obvious breach of a pattent and mag prices plumited! would that be the fault of the buyer of the mag, or the one who crated them? its not like you're supporting the company if you are buying used (which i stick to because its cheaper and the gun is usally already ugraded), and letting others buy new. i guess what i'm trying to say is, shut up about smart parts. the only thing you're doing is making people lose money on their purchases who are completely innocent!!! given, there may be a few that have bought their pulses in the last month or two, but does that mean that they are supporting the "paintball nazis" even thought they might have bought it used?!?! wake up and see what you're doing. i am ashamed of those who bash smart parts users just because they have a GREAT PRODUCT AND DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE COMPANY!!!!!!

thank you

ignorance is not an option.

RRfireblade

10-11-2003, 11:57 AM

If you love it so much you shouldn't be worried about resale.;)

And if you love it and want another one it'll be cheaper now.

Chill,

Jay.

mag-hatter

10-11-2003, 12:04 PM

there is always another gun that i would like to have. what if i wanted to buy a higher end gun, and tried selling my impulse, then i would walk away with less than half of what i got it for. now, how am i going to have enough money to even think about getting an intimidator when i lost a couple hundred dollars on my deal? any takers on this one?

Sparks

10-11-2003, 12:55 PM

deal with it.

The big deal with SP suing is that they didn't come up with the original design that they're suing for. They're sitting on their laurels and trying to get rich through extortion.

When a company like SP makes an unethical decision in an attempt to get more money and the resale of their guns go down due to a backlash from consumers, then that's about as fair as it gets.

What's NOT fair, is that smaller companies are having to pay large sums on top of royalties because SP manipulated patent courts.

SP product owners get what they deserve in terms of resale value. "Not fair" my ***.

By the way, NYX, try using punctuation. Your first post in this thread was downright painful to read.

trxtr

10-11-2003, 03:18 PM

I think the problem is most people don't know what SP did they just think they're suing a bunch of people for patent infringment, which would be justified.

However, this isn't the case. They patented the Original Shockers' (a mediocre electro at best) DESIGN ONLY, before other electros were on the market.

Other electros came out, sold better than the shocker. SP goes back to their original shocker patent and "adds to it" garbage like "the use of electronic operating systems to engage a pneumatically powered paintball propeller", rather than applying for a new patent like they should have (but didn't because it would have been turned down). Some idiot somewhere granted the patent extension, thus opening the can of worms we have before us today.

Was it legal..technically
should it have happened..NO!!

SP was being fairly beaten in the marketplace and resorted to VERY SHADY tactics to compensate, and any business that operates in this fashion should be BOYCOTTED!!

thanx
trxtr

mag-hatter

10-11-2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Sparks

SP product owners get what they deserve in terms of resale value. "Not fair" my ***.
i take it you dont own an impulse. poor you, not having to deal with whats going on. you are totaly out of the line of fire on this issue, and it does not affect you therefore you probably shouldn't be telling US to deal with it. we get what we deserve huh? well did I sue a company for something? no chance. did i support this move by buying a used impulse? no chance. do other people who get impulses simply because they are good guns, and for doing so get kicked in the nuts at every turn, deserve this kind of treatment? i dont think so.

By the way, NYX, try using punctuation. Your first post in this thread was downright painful to read.
the only other thing that makes me mad besides the horrible resale due to a trend in not liking sp is people who tell others to use better punctuation, and grammer. ITS AN ONLINE MESSAGE BOARD, NOT A CLASSROOM!!!!!

-=Squid=-

10-11-2003, 04:08 PM

I dont use a single SP thing at all, but I dont give a crap. Its not going to change a thing, and I think talk of a boycott is simply foolish. Its not uncommon practice to do such things, and simply put, if they invented it, why would they want everybody else to use it?

EDIT: Maghatter...SP users get what they deserve? Say they had the gun for a year. Then this happens and resail plumets. In what way did they deserve this? But hey, thats life, I dont really care...not very many guns have that great of resale right now. Wonder why?

RRfireblade

10-11-2003, 04:14 PM

FYI,

Sold my Rat for $55 less than I paid new.Not to shabby for depreciation.('Course I put some $ into it as well but you never get that back)Complaining about resale on a paintball gun is like complaining about resale on a new car.It just sucks,period!

Jay.

bornl33t

10-11-2003, 05:46 PM

just a heads up... if you think it's ok to buy used sp guns. Say you buy a used gun. Sp doesn't get the money directly. BUT then the guy that just sold you his gun is going to take your money and go right back to sp and buy another one. So the market is going to stay saturated the boycot will never phase Sp

Muzikman

10-11-2003, 06:14 PM

Living not far from Smart Parts I got to see the first couple Impy off the line and all I can say is they were complete junk. They did fix some of the issues, but in my mind, SP has never made a quality product without stealing it (MaxFlo) and that 90% of their business is hype. So, yes, I care!

Take this from a person that through the mid 90's was a big supporter of SP.

thei3ug

10-11-2003, 09:43 PM

wow, that's pretty hardcore words man, hardcore.

I've been campaigning against Smart Parts Hype and Tactics since 98, and now you're going to tell me I'm a sellout?

For years I've heard "Oh, who cares what they say, so long as it works" and "They wouldn't sell if they were lying" from everyone. All of a sudden AO gets bought by AGD and everyone pretends they knew all along. There's a few names on this board that have been ignored in this industry for YEARS. Not just the big ones like Paladin or Tom, smaller guys who wrote articles since the early 90's on paper and on newsgroups telling you these things. Now SP wins a suit and you've got your panties in a bunch. And you call ME a poser, did you even care what smart parts did before you heard it might affect AGD? It's been YEARS since they began to push.

I learned to work on SP products that I loathed because they're the most popular gun here. You mean to tell me that I have to tell the 14 year old kid who got an impulse for a birthday gift that no, I'm not going to fix it because I'm boycotting Smart Parts? That the Max Flow I bought back in 96 (?) should go in the garbage because though it may still work, it shows a bad image? Or maybe I should sell it used to some jerk who "supports" them for 50 bucks, and take a loss because no one wants a 10 year old reg? Tell me how I'm going to afford that. Tell me how a great many people can afford to ditch their equipment because they don't agree with the policies of the company that made it. Guaranteed you've got products in your house made by child labor, or wage slaves in asia. If you're so worried about SP, why aren't you going through the products in everyday LIFE? Where were you when the Steel industry crashed in the 90's? Did you say "gee, tens of thousands of americans are losing their jobs. Maybe I should look into what my household items are made of." But you're real concerned about paintball I see. talk about rediculous. You're unwilling to acknowledge someone that doesn't put money in SPs pocket but uses their stuff on principle, but willing to buy cars, toasters, TVs, that put people on unemployment. Even greenpeace uses cars once and awhile.

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm posing again.

Get a life.

Jeremizzle

10-11-2003, 09:49 PM

My opinion is forget what anyone is doing. If SmartParts had the greatest guns in the world (which i believe they do) would you boycott them? Its all about they're guns and how the preform.

FooTemps

10-11-2003, 10:06 PM

I care but not to that high of an extent. Yes, sp wont' stop suing until they're content. We can't stop that. All we can do is sit this out or complain or attempt to do something.

SP did something really underhanded to get more money. I don't agree with it and I don't like it, but what can I do? I can try to petition, I can try to boycott... but there are too many morons who don't understand the concept of underhanded business. There are too many easily manipulated morons out there that would protect SP from bad comments about their underhanded business.

Lets just hope that prices on every electro won't go up $50 to $200 like people have predicted.

trxtr

10-11-2003, 10:07 PM

Here's a quick history for all those that slept through it: This country of ours was founded on the power of boycott. Our $$ and where we put it is the only voice that matters anymore. If you've never known that, forgotten it, or just don't live by it, then...I'm sorry for you.

tony3

10-11-2003, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by Muzikman
Living not far from Smart Parts I got to see the first couple Impy off the line and all I can say is they were complete junk. They did fix some of the issues, but in my mind, SP has never made a quality product without stealing it (MaxFlo) and that 90% of their business is hype. So, yes, I care!

Take this from a person that through the mid 90's was a big supporter of SP.

The impulse was major junk, was is the key word. They have done so many improvments its unbelievable. Same thing with mags imo. They were slow, ugly, heavy and chopped a lot. In the last few years agd has really taken steps to fix these things. SP did the same, but in a faster manner.+

FooTemps

10-11-2003, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by tony3

The impulse was major junk, was is the key word. They have done so many improvments its unbelievable. Same thing with mags imo. They were slow, ugly, heavy and chopped a lot. In the last few years agd has really taken steps to fix these things. SP did the same, but in a faster manner.+

Actually, to correct you... AGD kept it the same for 7 years, then they changed it completely in a about a year and a half. That means AGD was faster than SP to change, but slower than SP to realize their flaws.

BTW: Mags were fast back in their day. Classics are just old products trying to complete in a modern market. Classics are still good entry level markers.

mag-hatter

10-12-2003, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
EDIT: Maghatter...SP users get what they deserve? Say they had the gun for a year. Then this happens and resail plumets. In what way did they deserve this? But hey, thats life, I dont really care...not very many guns have that great of resale right now. Wonder why?

god dude, did you even read what my posts were?

some people :rolleyes:

nastymag

10-12-2003, 12:46 AM

Yo tony3... that about the mags is not tru ... the only chopped if you didnt know how to shot them , only slow if you didnt know how to shot them. i use my lvl 7 mini all the time when for some reason i dont feel like using my angel. last time i used it i shoot a whole case with no breaks.

i had an impy , it was ok , but i didnt think it was built so well , it was tall and heavy. Very! fast but thats about the only thing it really had going for it. Vision was a pain the butt. and just because of what SP was legal doesnt make it right, i think it was downright dirty.
so yeah i am boycotting them not to hurt them ( i wish it would though). but just to show that i dont agree with their business practices.

and i actually dont think their products are not that great. the old AA shot tits, buty my Max-flo Crept all the time ( yes i cleaned it). and my freak is not worth what i payed for it.

mag-hatter

10-12-2003, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by RRfireblade
FYI,

Sold my Rat for $55 less than I paid new.Not to shabby for depreciation.('Course I put some $ into it as well but you never get that back)Complaining about resale on a paintball gun is like complaining about resale on a new car.It just sucks,period!

Jay.

hmm i wonder how much money you put into that gun to get up to 55 dollars less than you paid new

rats are what, 900 bucks new? ive seen them go used for 700 so you had to have put at least 400 dollars if not 5 or 5 and a half into it to get it back up to that.....you poor little man.

Timmee

10-12-2003, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by mag-hatter
yeah does it really matter what your first shot does? jesus! the cool thing about imps is that they come out of the box really fast, and a little lighter than a mag. not only are they lighter than mags, but they are obviously faster for just a little more money. beyond that, you have the option of upgrading the internals and putting extra stuff on it to make it super gas efficient unlike mags. heck, yesterday i upped my shots/tank by like 50-60 just from filling the hammer cap with glue!!!!!! its so easy to upgrade these things! not only are they easy to upgrade, but they are easy to fieldstrip!! no unscrewing something in the middle of the game, just pull a pin and the bolt falls out. strait shot through the gun and you're back in business. i don't see why people are refusing to buy the guns because they are wonderful!!!!!! this whole mess is making the resale of impulses go way down which is not fair. most of these people got their guns before sp even thought about sueing. because of ignorance in the paintball world, the people who bought impulses a little while back are now going to suffer the consequences. how would you like if there was some scandal with mags where tom tried taking someone down for an obvious breach of a pattent and mag prices plumited! would that be the fault of the buyer of the mag, or the one who crated them? its not like you're supporting the company if you are buying used (which i stick to because its cheaper and the gun is usally already ugraded), and letting others buy new. i guess what i'm trying to say is, shut up about smart parts. the only thing you're doing is making people lose money on their purchases who are completely innocent!!! given, there may be a few that have bought their pulses in the last month or two, but does that mean that they are supporting the "paintball nazis" even thought they might have bought it used?!?! wake up and see what you're doing. i am ashamed of those who bash smart parts users just because they have a GREAT PRODUCT AND DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE COMPANY!!!!!!

thank you

ignorance is not an option.

Ok, first off, I DO care about my first shot. FSDO is indicative of either a poorly maintained, poorly set up, or poorly designed marker. Second off, Bushmasters are awesome markers, which are light, fast, and inexpensive (compared to other markers that operate on similar principles, like the Angel, Intimidator, Viking, etc). Need more speed? If you've got an older board, add a chaos chip (I believe they're only about $40-50 bucks, much cheaper than a board replacement). The new boards, IIRC, are capped at 36 bps, so a chip replacement isn't needed. There are also other upgrades available to the Bushy as well, from several different manufacturers. Field stripping the Bushy is also easy. If you need to squeegee the barrel, it's the same procedure as the imp (pull the pin, take out the bolt, run the squeegee through, and re-assemble).

While the Imp MIGHT be a wonderful marker (like I said, I haven't owned one), it is not the only option. A person can get a quality marker at a decent price, AND still show their displeasure with SP. Sounds like a win-win situation to me. :D

sneakyhacker420

10-12-2003, 09:41 AM

this SP lawsuit is full of lies and hype

and personally i don't really care for the matter what they do until i actually see something happening

mag-hatter

10-12-2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Timmee

Ok, first off, I DO care about my first shot. FSDO is indicative of either a poorly maintained, poorly set up, or poorly designed marker. Second off, Bushmasters are awesome markers, which are light, fast, and inexpensive (compared to other markers that operate on similar principles, like the Angel, Intimidator, Viking, etc). Need more speed? If you've got an older board, add a chaos chip (I believe they're only about $40-50 bucks, much cheaper than a board replacement). The new boards, IIRC, are capped at 36 bps, so a chip replacement isn't needed. There are also other upgrades available to the Bushy as well, from several different manufacturers. Field stripping the Bushy is also easy. If you need to squeegee the barrel, it's the same procedure as the imp (pull the pin, take out the bolt, run the squeegee through, and re-assemble).

While the Imp MIGHT be a wonderful marker (like I said, I haven't owned one), it is not the only option. A person can get a quality marker at a decent price, AND still show their displeasure with SP. Sounds like a win-win situation to me. :D

what is your argument??? you are supposed to be going against impulses and you start talking about vikings, intimidators, and other extremely high end markers...bushmasters are not only a cheep knockoff of an impulse (OBVIOUSLY since bushies are, quoting you, "inexpensive". are you blind to how the gripframe looks?!? its horrible! NOT ONLY THAT, but you can't replace it. a whole new board for the impulse with full auto and other magical things is under 50 bucks and that is just coming out onto the market! it'll probably settle to about 30 bucks in a few months. thats for the whole board, not some stupid chip. the entire bushmaster design was ripped from the impulse look, feel, and operational capability, and if FSDO is so important, there is a 10 dollar mod thats available for you. by the way, i don't experience fsdo because its hype against impulses.

....oh my. first you are calling impulses poorly made, then you are saying that they are wonderful markers and that you have never owned one. bushmasters are not even close to being better or more upgradable than impulses are. not by far! i have yet to see a bushmaster running on an lpr, and have its internals replaced so it can get a good 1200 shots to a 68/3k tank.

Banshee23

10-12-2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by mag-hatter

the entire bushmaster design was ripped from the impulse look, feel, and operational capability

And the entire Impulse design was ripped from the Tribal... So don't go off on the bushies for copying the Impy, it wasn't anything near original in the first place.

RRfireblade

10-12-2003, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by mag-hatter

hmm i wonder how much money you put into that gun to get up to 55 dollars less than you paid new

rats are what, 900 bucks new? ive seen them go used for 700 so you had to have put at least 400 dollars if not 5 or 5 and a half into it to get it back up to that.....you poor little man.

You know the more you open your mouth,the more you sound like a complete idiot.

Rat impulses start at $700,I paid $750 w/ vision and a bottom line Maxflo.

So your right,they sell for around $700 used.I guess your WHOLE arguement is comletely screwed thanks to you.

FYI,I put about $100 bucks into it.

Nice job making your self look even more stupid.

Keep it up.;)

thei3ug

10-12-2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Banshee23

And the entire Impulse design was ripped from the Tribal... So don't go off on the bushies for copying the Impy, it wasn't anything near original in the first place.

umm, tribals had a LPR.

There aren't many ways you can actuate a sheridan style exhaust valve... let's get off of the whole "ripped off" idea and remember the valve design is 100 years old. k?

Sparks

10-12-2003, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by mag-hatter

as ripped from the impulse look, feel, and operational capability, and if FSDO is so important, there is a 10 dollar mod thats available for you. by the way, i don't experience fsdo because its hype against impulses.
bushmasters are not even close to being better or more upgradable than impulses are. not by far! i have yet to see a bushmaster running on an lpr, and have its internals replaced so it can get a good 1200 shots to a 68/3k tank.

Bushmasters come stock with LPRs. A kit to put an aftermarket LPR is available, it does in fact come stock on the defiant.

Goldie does the Vapor mods to a stock bushmaster or BKO that run about $50 i believe that will drastically increase efficiency and lower LPR pressure.

I don't see why it's considered such an advantage to have many upgrades. Doesn't that just mean the design was crappy enough in the first place that a company such as new designz can produce the exact same part of a different material or to tighter tolerances and it could be considered an "upgrade"? Shouldn't SP have done this stuff in the first place?

In the case of something like the Level 10, that's a drastically different method of operation, so don't even try to compare that with a new hammer for an impulse that's the same damn shape as the stock one.

tony3

10-12-2003, 03:14 PM

My teammate owned a b2k with all the vapor mods, a freak, all the works. My imp is similar, nd internals, blade trigger, ultralite, let me tell you, my imp is a much better gun. It is more of a solid marker then a bushy. It is faster. The trigger on the bushy is sooo sloppy. I get better efficency, and we paid about the same price.

Imps "need" about 75 bucks of parts to work great, you could spend more to make it work beyond belief. Lots of pro teams are starting to use imps, they are one of the most popular guns in tourneys. "There sponsors make them use them" They wouldnt be shooting imps if they didnt like them. I'm sure if you are good enough to get a gun sponsor you can practically pick who you want.

lets compare a stock imp, to a stock mag.

Freshman imp from epbo-450
new bolt-30
total-480

stock tko mag-280
lvl 10-65
intelliframe-115
total-460

The imps going to be a better gun, no doubt about it. Its going to be faster and more effiecent. Thats what it comes down to. Each gun is going to be consistent. They will both be reliable as long as you lube/oil both, but the imp will be much faster. Tell me 1 advantage that stock mag has over the imp.

Not only will the imp be faster but if you want the mag to be on par with the imp in speed youll need to drop 225 on an xvalve. And the imp is still faster.