WAS proclaims VIKING = FASTEST MARKER AVAILABLE @ 40 CPS stock! (no video)

[Jack & Coke]

From the files of...

http://www.ripleys.dk/images/startlogo.gif

Source: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3068565#post3059421

WickedAirSportz:
I *knew* that AKA was going to be the fastest marker available due to its design, so I kinda hinted at the fact that we were interested in making an Equalizer and it turns out they were looking for a new hardware manufacturer (which I also knew about).

Jack & Coke:
Why do you *believe* this?

WickedAirSportz:
Short stroke, fast recharging LPR, large ram assembly... 40+cps stock.

Jack & Coke:
1. Short stroke - currious, what's the length of stroke?
2. fast recharging LPR - what pressure is going into the LPR?
3. Large ram assembly - how does this translate to faster?
4. 40+ cps stock - you gotta video clip for that?

WickedAirSportz:
1. Less than anything else (except the mags).
2. About 200 psi.
3. More surface area (with a reduce weight) allows air to pressurize a shorter assembly.
4. No, want to make one for us?

Jack & Coke:
No clip? (video or audio) Then, how did you determine that a stock Viking can cycle 40 times per second??? Did you do some kind of test? Certainly if you tested it, you would have recorded it right?




All you AO Viking owers, did you know your stock Vikings can do 40 CPS?

Can someone please record a video clip of their stock Viking doing 40 cps?

Thanks;)

[Steelrat]

If anyone really cares about this, here is a thread discussing a video someone made of a viking doing 30 cps. It was set to a low debounce, I believe, and as far as I know no one verified if there was shootdown, or even a complete cycle.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97703&highlight=viking

[Jack & Coke]

Yeah, I saw that thread before... but 40???

[Kaiser Bob]

well the valve system could more then likely handle 40cps with no shootdown, the solenoid itself i dont know the specs on and whether it can handle it, but the ram is indeed a beefy solid piece of equipment that can move lots of air, i would say it would move faster then a cocker ram and they are rated to cycle over 30bps, i dont recall the number the SMC cocker ram is said to be able to cycle :( So I think that 40 may be feasible, would love to see a video.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Kaiser Bob
...would love to see a video...

So would I! :)

It would certainly be the fastest marker cycling video I have ever seen.

[FooTemps]

What's the capable estimated pbs for the emag?

[nippinout]

40 cps- Who gives a flying monkey butt about that claim.

[pito189]

Here is a picture of the Viking with a watch next to it. Kinda similiar to that Timmy video...;)



P.S. it's not really a picture of the video.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by nippinout
40 cps- Who gives a flying monkey butt about that claim.

Don't be such a lamer.

If you're not interested in what we're discussing, then why do you read this thread?

The topic of 40 cps is interesting to me because I like analyzing stuff. It's like a car junkie squeezing out an extra 1/2 horse power out of his engine.

Now please stay out of this thread.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Agreed, Jack and Coke has a great mind for things and is a good "stress-tester" of ideas. That claim is pretty up there and he is asking fair questions. If WAS can back them up and answer them, excellent, the product rips. If they can't, then Jack and Coke did a "Doc Nickel" and called out an exaggerated claim and got flamed because he looked out for consumers.

I like WAS Equalizers alot, and their quality is why they are the stock boards in some of the top markers out there with more coming. I just contacted them through PBNation regarding a rather interesting project I am getting into involving the board and my Merlin because they are the best but that is for another day. I am also still curious if Debounce was designed for good reasons or intentionally to allow illegal rates of fire. But this is a very bold claim and Jack and Coke asking for solid data to back it up (since they should have had this data in the first place to make the claim) is not out of line.

So if you don't like that it's being questioned... don't post and act like an idiot.

If you want to help test the theory, set those debounces as low as possible and see what you can do. But this is one claims that needs some solid proof.

[nippinout]

40bps would be a different matter. My Spyder can go all sorts of awesome cycles per second.

Many claims of high bps or cps are made, but not many are backed up by chronograph results. The only backup is sound analysis. 40bps isn't impressive when there is shoot down. 40bps without shootdown would be cool though.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by nippinout
The only backup is sound analysis.

WAS uses a high tech method:


Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Bench test. Mount sensors on each side of the bolt pin, and have a logic analyzer trigger the solenoid and count the forward backward movement (cycle rate) as the rate of fire is increased. The LA stores the time each takes for each direction of movement, letting you know what changes to things like manifold base gasket make.

[FooTemps]

If WAS uses that... why don't they give us an official test!!?!?!

[CpSuPeRkId]

J&C you are really starting to annoy me. everywhere i go i see you completely bashing WAS, one way or another. its not the fact that you are interested to see proof of the claimed 40bps(which i think is beleiveable), its that you are soo amazingly sarcastic about it and rude to Jim about it. why are u so concerned with what a company claims???? you think the man just lies for no reason???? of course not. i mean seriously. who is going to claim a number that they pulled out of their ***???? nobody. i guarantee with all the testing Jim does, he has gotten a viking to cycle at 40cps. now where his proof is at??? i dont know. i do beleive its capable of 40cps and i dont see why you find that hard to beleive when timmys have already been PROVEN to shoot past 30 and vikings have a faster and shorter stroke than timmys. so again, i dont know what your beef is with this claim but im going to laugh in your face when WAS releases a video of it shooting at 40+cps. hes probably working on it right now to shut your punk *** down. - Tony

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId
J&C you are really starting to annoy me. everywhere i go i see you completely bashing WAS, one way or another. its not the fact that you are interested to see proof of the claimed 40bps(which i think is beleiveable), its that you are soo amazingly sarcastic about it and rude to Jim about it. why are u so concerned with what a company claims???? you think the man just lies for no reason???? of course not. i mean seriously. who is going to claim a number that they pulled out of their ***???? nobody. i guarantee with all the testing Jim does, he has gotten a viking to cycle at 40cps. now where his proof is at??? i dont know. i do beleive its capable of 40cps and i dont see why you find that hard to beleive when timmys have already been PROVEN to shoot past 30 and vikings have a faster and shorter stroke than timmys. so again, i dont know what your beef is with this claim but im going to laugh in your face when WAS releases a video of it shooting at 40+cps. hes probably working on it right now to shut your punk *** down. - Tony

Actually, a whole bunch of companies pull numbers out of their butt...

[pito189]

Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId
J&C you are really starting to annoy me. everywhere i go i see you completely bashing WAS, one way or another. its not the fact that you are interested to see proof of the claimed 40bps(which i think is beleiveable), its that you are soo amazingly sarcastic about it and rude to Jim about it. why are u so concerned with what a company claims???? you think the man just lies for no reason???? of course not. i mean seriously. who is going to claim a number that they pulled out of their ***???? nobody. i guarantee with all the testing Jim does, he has gotten a viking to cycle at 40cps. now where his proof is at??? i dont know. i do beleive its capable of 40cps and i dont see why you find that hard to beleive when timmys have already been PROVEN to shoot past 30 and vikings have a faster and shorter stroke than timmys. so again, i dont know what your beef is with this claim but im going to laugh in your face when WAS releases a video of it shooting at 40+cps. hes probably working on it right now to shut your punk *** down. - Tony

Are you serious? Or are you just 12? Have you ever read through some of the discussions we have had with WAS on AO, and PBnation?

All we want is proof of all his claims, thats all we ask. That is all Jack and Coke is asking.


Foo Temps is right a lot of numbers are made up.

[deathstalker]

Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId
you think the man just lies for no reason????I'm sure he has a reason. :D

Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId
i guarantee with all the testing Jim does, he has gotten a viking to cycle at 40cps. now where his proof is at??? i dont know.
I guarantee you are a moron who rides the short bus and wears a helmet. I have no proof, but I guarantee it. See where I'm going with this? If not, then I have my proof.

Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId
but im going to laugh in your face when WAS releases a video of it shooting at 40+cps. hes probably working on it right now to shut your punk *** down.
Let him. I'm willing to bet Jack & Coke would say, "Cool! Thanks for the vid!"

As has already been stated, when a company makes claims, they better be prepared to offer proof. I could not care less about WAS's claims as I do not own any of their products (nor am interested in any), but what irks me is people like you who believe anything you read on the intarweb.

[Jack & Coke]

Looks like someone forgot to take their pills...

http://www.walgreens.com/dbimagecache/48787.gif


Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId


J&C you are really starting to annoy me.



Just put me on your ignore list and I'm sure you'll feel much better.



Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId


...everywhere i go i see you completely bashing WAS, one way or another...



Where did I bash him this time? I just asked for some proof to his 40 cps claim... I have never seen a 40 cps clip. I think it would be great to see. Don't you???

Remember, I never said it was impossible.

You know, I didn't even ask the harder questions regarding drop off at that ROF.:rolleyes:

All I asked was a very simple question - and again, his elusiveness has turned these threads into perceived bashing.

Did I say he was wrong or lying?

I have not made that conclusion yet...

[Caffiend]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke


Jack & Coke:
1. Short stroke - currious, what's the length of stroke?

WickedAirSportz:
1. Less than anything else (except the mags).


I'm a complete noob when it comes to technical terms, but what is a "stroke" (keep it clean guys;)) and what's the mag's length?


Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId
you think the man just lies for no reason????

same reason we have a smart parts lawsuit going on...sales.

[Puddleglum]

J&C
I ask again... please... how did you determine that a stock Viking can cycle 40 times per second?

JD


Bench test. Mount sensors on each side of the bolt pin, and have a logic analyzer trigger the solenoid and count the forward backward movement (cycle rate) as the rate of fire is increased. The LA stores the time each takes for each direction of movement, letting you know what changes to things like manifold base gasket make.

J&C
Thanks!

JD
Yeah, see the search function? I have already stated how bench testing is done.

[Puddleglum]

I don't understand why the guy (J&C) is trying so hard. Even to the point of being a real $%&#. I owned four Mag's before I bought my Viking. I loved the Mag's, and I love my Viking more. But I still have a great amount of respect for AGD and for the Mag......and I hate to see them get very little respect. I also suffer the same thing being a Viking owner. People think beauty is synonymous with bein the best. The Viking is not pretty, but it's what inside that counts. My Viking with full WAS and Eyes, regularly outfeeds my HALO B with Zcode which I have drop tested at an average of 23.876 bps. THE VIKING IS ONE OF THE FASTEST CYCLING MARKERS IN THE WORLD. And so is the MAG. I'm just happy to have owned (and loved) both.

[~WarpedRT#2~]

40 is alot. But I wonder if they are complete. It almost seems like they are probably half strokes.

[Jack & Coke]

Puddleglum, since you have a Viking, do you think you can help us out and record a clip of your gun doing 40 cps?

...or even you "outfeeding" your Halo at 23 bps.

Thanks a lot! :)

[personman]

My talon can do 6 bps

[pito189]

Originally posted by Puddleglum
I don't understand why the guy (J&C) is trying so hard. Even to the point of being a real $%&#. I owned four Mag's before I bought my Viking. I loved the Mag's, and I love my Viking more. But I still have a great amount of respect for AGD and for the Mag......and I hate to see them get very little respect. I also suffer the same thing being a Viking owner. People think beauty is synonymous with bein the best. The Viking is not pretty, but it's what inside that counts. My Viking with full WAS and Eyes, regularly outfeeds my HALO B with Zcode which I have drop tested at an average of 23.876 bps. THE VIKING IS ONE OF THE FASTEST CYCLING MARKERS IN THE WORLD. And so is the MAG. I'm just happy to have owned (and loved) both.

He owned/owns Mags, he owns an Intimidator, and has owned a myraid of other guns I'm sure.

J&C and other AOers myself included just love to see proof of these claims.

I would personally love to see a video of you "outfeeding" your hopper. Heck even you outshooting it would work.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

This hasn't been about bashing, J+C just asked for the information about the tests that proved the ROF. It's a fair question. I see nothing that is truly offensive in this thread except how Cpsuperkid and maybe one or two are acting. Grow up kid. You don't like this discussion, take a walk. If you want to defend WAS by providing solid proof to back up the claims WAS made, I am sure J+C would concede to the fact they were right and compliment their technology, I seem to remember he owns a Timmy so why would he be bashing them? He just likes to know he isn't being BS'd which TONS of companies in paintball do. He has never said the Timmy can't rip, only that he needs a little more proof this new claim's insanely high ROF is actually real or just deceitful marketing and a way to push more WAS'd vikings. This thread will help WAS if it's legit, hurt them if it's bogus. But J+C didn't push it towards either one. So keep the valid points coming, but if you're all about being an idiot and using "because WAS said it" as your argument, try telling it to some naive noobs over at PBN because I think the majority of AO regulars expect to see some proof to back up a claim and so far none has appeared yet.

[DJBacon06]

ok, i know its not a viking...but i was just curious about this gun. they are saying it can do 45 cps


here's a link to the vid of it.
http://members.cox.net/ah100/Isis45bpsJul9_03.MOV


and here is the site with all the info on the gun.
http://members.cox.net/pgipaintguns/page8.htm

[GT]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Puddleglum, since you have a Viking, do you think you can help us out and record a clip of your gun doing 40 cps?

...or even you "outfeeding" your Halo at 23 bps.

Thanks a lot! :)

What is your problem Jack? You know dam well that w/o some kind of f/a utility it is impossible for us to determine rof above 20bps. Kinda like asking each retro owner to produce a sound sig of 26bps. real mature.

however,

I am not sure why WAS cannot just make a quick vid since he does f/a testing.

BTW,
When you say "stock" viking you are really saying any vik w/ the updated WAS board. To the best of my knowledge there are no upgrades for the viking that increase rof less the eq and eyes of which the board is now including with the purchase of a vik.

jb

[hitech]

Originally posted by gtrsi
What is your problem Jack? You know dam well that w/o some kind of f/a utility it is impossible for us to determine rof above 20bps. Kinda like asking each retro owner to produce a sound sig of 26bps.

Not really,


Originally posted by Puddleglum
My Viking with full WAS and Eyes, regularly outfeeds my HALO B with Zcode which I have drop tested at an average of 23.876 bps.

Granted, we are assuming by outfeeds he means out shoots. However, he is the one that claims his viking can shoot sustained strings in excess of 24bps. We would ALL like to see that. Myself included.

[f3rr3+]

Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId
J&C you are really starting to annoy me. everywhere i go i see you completely bashing WAS, one way or another. its not the fact that you are interested to see proof of the claimed 40bps(which i think is beleiveable), its that you are soo amazingly sarcastic about it and rude to Jim about it. why are u so concerned with what a company claims???? you think the man just lies for no reason???? of course not. i mean seriously. who is going to claim a number that they pulled out of their ***???? nobody. i guarantee with all the testing Jim does, he has gotten a viking to cycle at 40cps. now where his proof is at??? i dont know. i do beleive its capable of 40cps and i dont see why you find that hard to beleive when timmys have already been PROVEN to shoot past 30 and vikings have a faster and shorter stroke than timmys. so again, i dont know what your beef is with this claim but im going to laugh in your face when WAS releases a video of it shooting at 40+cps. hes probably working on it right now to shut your punk *** down. - Tony

Seal Foward Technology anyone?

[thei3ug]

i just wish that WAS would pick one gun and say "THIS is the fastest" instead of picking a new one every week. that's all I ask.

and don't give me the truth bit. there's little truth in this business. Suffice to say, most of these guns shoot fast.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Thank you f3rr3+, perfect illustration of BS claims to exaggerate products for sales. Low operating pressure was another fad that was pushed alot and excessively exaggerated for the purpose of sales. It's called hype and it's used to rip people off.

[cledford]

Well, I sold my Timmy - but just happened to have picked a WASed Half-mill Viking a few weeks ago. I've got the day off tomorrow so I can set the debounce to 1ms and eyes to simulate and see what we get with that. Someone else will have to figure out the full-auto part.

For the record, those who know me know that I've been a BIG detractor of both WAS and AKA. That having been said, I'm on my second Viking (after having sold the first and swearing to never own another due to the software issues and lack of tool kits) and second WAS board. (One for the Timmy, and one in current Viking) I will refute to my dying day that the Timmy had shootdown with the stock board, but also will say that the WAS products are well done regardless of some of the claims.

I'm looking forward to proof of the 40cps - go get 'em Jack...

For all of the detractors in the thread - why don't you just slink off to PBN, they've got a Smart Parts forum over there you'd be interested in...

-Calvin

[mrhooie]

The long and short of it is this

WAS has stated that the Viking is the fastest cycling marker. Making boards for a number of markers (including but not limited to the Intimidator, Viking/Excalibur, Alien and Impulse), what would Jim Drew have to gain by misappropriating his claims?

WAS is the only source that can f/a the EQ board (much like AGD and f/a eMag).

WAS is the only source to get a video from. Whether Jim will do it or not remains to be seen. There's no reason to argue on the internet about his claims. Jim does a lot of strange things for strange reasons (I could start but it may involve me never seeing the gear I ordered almost 4 months ago)

I agree with Jack and Coke, I've always appreciated his views. I'd love to see proof. CTFO

[Jack & Coke]

I'm not out to "get" anyone... I read 40 cps, and thought, WOW! that's fast! I would love to see that clip!

The next thing you know... all of the Jim Drew Jock Riders comes out of the wood works and turn it into a "please stop bashing poor Jim" thread.

Yeah his products allow you to shoot increadibly fast. I have an Equalizer in my GZ Clammy! I'm just honest and I call things like I see them. I have nothing AGAINST Jim Drew. I'm not a blind AO lemming either. Don't forget about my post critisizing the 2.4 MAX ROF bug.

When people start claiming things like:

"I routinely outshoot my Halo"

or

"My gun can shoot 30+ BPS"

or

"My gun can cycle 40 CPS"

Then I say WOW! I'd love to see that! Where's the video clip?

Nowhere have I ever doubted, refuted, or contested which gun is the best or proclaimed which is the speed king!

Some of you think I take sides against Jim all the time. You're wrong. If something doesn't jive, I start asking questions. If you can't stomache the FAIR questioning, stay out of the thread and go get a hug from mommy.

[Steelrat]

Well, you sacrificed any attempt at impartiality by posting that big "Ripley's believe it or not" pic in your original post.

And as far as outrunning halos, I have done it, though not regularly. And I only notice if it I leave the Viking in simulate, as the eyes prevent any chopping when enabled. Unfortunately, I do not carry a video camera with me when I am playing, so I am unable to provide any footage.

[Marek]

I love my mommy. :D

Anyway, keep up the good work. I am curious to see vids of all these things. Still waiting on the A4 doing 30 bps too.

[Havoc_online]

Originally posted by Marek
I love my mommy. :D

Anyway, keep up the good work. I am curious to see vids of all these things. Still waiting on the A4 doing 30 bps too.

After some bugging, I've finally gotten a reply. Supposedly WDP will be releasing a 30bps vid soon.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Havoc_online


After some bugging, I've finally gotten a reply. Supposedly WDP will be releasing a 30bps vid soon.

That would be cool to see!

[Tobe2be]

Wow i agree with J+C all the way with the questioning. i find it funny that in everything else people dont beleive it till they see it but in paintball people beleive the hype. also Cpboy said why would people put out numbers. i think it was clearly proved that all the milled back halfs for the classic valves dont do a darn thing but yet shocktech,and ANS made these parts and said that they would help your mag.

As i was saying before about this being one of the few sports were people beleive the hype. im into car racing and if someone tells me that they are running the 1/4 mile in 11's or 10's with a Rt of .501 i am one of the first to ask for some video or some proof but yet WAS comes out and say that a viking can do 40 cps and everyone is going GOO GOO GAH GAH for a viking without even knowing if its true. ima a mag owner and ive shot a eblade and WOW those things are amazing but common why would someone get offended if someone asks them to prove it. And CPboy im currently working on a new paintball marker than can cycle 42.523498445088590009223993393884 (and please dont ask me to prove it cuz thats wrong and your not suppose to do that)

another thing i seened the video that someone posted here and i noticed something really funny. when this guy shoots first stream you barely see the valve pin moving (i thought it was moving so fast that i couldnt see it fine beleivable) then he shoots his second stream and you see the pin move a lil more back and the final burst you see the valve and pin move even further back so i dont know if those are full cycles.im considerably new to paintball but im not idiot with common sense.

Anyways thanks j&c for asking the contraversial questions that many people wouldnt dare to ask like prove it ;) God forbid someone will get offeneded. we have way to many PBN trolls.we need a revolutoion against PBN trolls

[breg]

40 CPS? Wow that is a lot. What is the actual, sustained balls per second? I doubt that it is anywhere near 40 BPS.

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by Tobe2be
...another thing i seened the video that someone posted here and i noticed something really funny. when this guy shoots first stream you barely see the valve pin moving (i thought it was moving so fast that i couldnt see it fine beleivable) then he shoots his second stream and you see the pin move a lil more back and the final burst you see the valve and pin move even further back so i dont know if those are full cycles.im considerably new to paintball but im not idiot with common sense...

There is a valid explanation for that. The framerate of the video can only catch so much. Think of a strobe light in a dark room and repetiive movement like clapping. If you time it right it can look like your hands are in exactly the same position yet you know you are clapping because you can hear it, and well you are doing it :), but you cant see your hands move at all, you can have your hands look like they are in any position of the stroke depending on the timing. Since the bursts started at different times during the framerate cycles and the bolt cycle and the camera cycle are perfectly synched, it would look like the bolt might stop in different places during the vid.

[Tobe2be]

VALID POINT but if you look at the video the pin doesnt move completely back on the first burst... ive been analyzing the video and the bolt DOES NOT move all the way back as it does on the last burst. look at it again doesnt seem to be the camera Frames per second has anything to do with it. again i can be wrong. just take a look at it seems funny to me

[SkyBoySurfer]

I know that the film IS NOT fast enough to "see" the bolt move completly.

But it also seems like the bolt isint doing a full cycle in the first 2 bursts and every time he relased the trigger the last cycle would actualy do a FULL cycle..the rest of the time it seemed like it was only doing 1/2 or mabe even 1/3 of a full cycle...

I could be completely wrong...because the film isint fast enough to "see" it

we would be able to tell tho if he shot paint threw it....thats for damn shure =D....i would would imagein you need a flatline nitro system to keep the shoot down away.


and on another note.....WHO IN THE HELL WANTS TO SHOOT 40 BPS!!!!i know CPS and BPS are are diffrent things.....but damn....comeon

that is full auto.....and we all know..we cant use fullauto in paintball games......so whats the point?
Thats not exactly what I look for when I want to buy a new gun.

Thats just my opion I could be wrong.

[Tobe2be]

well thats exactly what i was talking bout that you see that it doenst do a full cycle. but hey me and skydsurefer can be wrong.

[Marek]

Originally posted by Havoc_online


After some bugging, I've finally gotten a reply. Supposedly WDP will be releasing a 30bps vid soon.

How many months later? Well, plz share when you get it. I would love to see that vid.

[kevinkills99]

Two reasons I doubt anything that comes out of Jim Drew's mouth/keyboard;
1.)He said Angels have ramped dwell- Proven false
2.)He says his turbo-rev boards have Artificial intelligence, even is stupid enough to leave it on his site.

The guy is the Hype and BS King.

[GT]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
The next thing you know... all of the Jim Drew Jock Riders comes out of the wood works and turn it into a "please stop bashing poor Jim" thread.

If you can't stomache the FAIR questioning, stay out of the thread and go get a hug from mommy.

All i am asking is that you question in a non-threatening non-confrontational way. You’re trying to bust balls as if this is some enormous consumer safety issue.

Lighten up J&C and simple ask the question less the sarcasm. The sarcasm and lack of basic respect is what you are getting slammed for.

jb

[jinxed]

Originally posted by breg
40 CPS? Wow that is a lot. What is the actual, sustained balls per second? I doubt that it is anywhere near 40 BPS.

I was thinking the same thing.
Most high-end regs start to shootdown around 25-30cps.
Also, you don't know if they are doing FULL cycles, or shortstroking to give fake results. (ie like with the ISIS video).

The fastest guns are still probobly spyders with Morlocks and Siphons. They can easily cycle up to 45cps with no shootdown.

Obviously, nobody can pull the trigger that fast, but I've been impressed with the speed of some roller-triggers. Almost scary!!

-nick

[personman]

cough cough actually I think the fastest marker = a spyder with no grip frame
r0x0rz! Take that viking!

[kevinkills99]

Originally posted by kevinkills99
Two reasons I doubt anything that comes out of Jim Drew's mouth/keyboard;
1.)He said Angels have ramped dwell- Proven false
2.)He says his turbo-rev boards have Artificial intelligence, even is stupid enough to leave it on his site.

The guy is the Hype and BS King.

[FreshmanBob]

My vikings fast, but 40? Last I heard he said the max was like 36

[Smitty2k1]

Ill do the easy math in this equation:
40bps (assumed its BPS not CPS, and with a perfect loader)

= 50 seconds to empty a full case
= Approx $72 a minute.

Yes! Most expensive sport ever.
I dont even think prostitution would ever get up to the range of $72 a minute!

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by Smitty2k1
I dont even think prostitution would ever get up to the range of $72 a minute!LMFAO!




jack, i'm in you with this

i am a supporter of WAS's proven, working products, but i hate it when they don't have anything to back up their claim that marker A can cycle X times per second or hopper D can feed X balls per seocnd

i would absolutely LOVE to see a video of this doing COMPLETE cycles

and all you J&C haters, SHUT UP AND GET THE HELL OUT OF HIS THREAD :mad: ... oh, and btw, they DO have an ignore feature so you don't see posts or threads from a specified member :rolleyes:

[CpSuPeRkId]

ok look, first of all im not some noob. all those comments like the SF technology that was directed towards me is BS. do u really think i beleive stuff like that???? give me a break. im not an idiot and im far from one. i know the difference between BS hype created by SP and real performance.

im not out to argue or ***** back and forth like a little child(im 17, not 12 to whoever made that comment). all im sayin is its one thing to ask for proof, but to be sarcastic about it and basically stab at a guy is more childish and ignorant than anything else ive seen. i think all the accusations against Jim started because he made a baord that allowed guns to shoot faster than the precious(sp?) retro valve. all of it stemmed when lots of AO couldnt accept the fact that there was a faster gun out there. its understood that the retro valve can CYCLE faster than any gun out there but since no board currently being made allows it to reach its capabilities, a WAS equipped viking(or timmy before viking) IS faster right now than an x/e-mag. this whole debate led to the hypist title given to Jim. now i still dont understand this. HOW does he hype his products in such a way that everybody starts to hate him???? i mean i have never seen any case where he did something wrong or claimed something that was not true. to make it short, ive never seen any false claims by Jim or any overhyping. all i see are products that do as he claims. now about the 40bps thing. i know it sounds stupid how i said i guarantee that he has gotten a viking to cycle that fast but at the same time i said i havent seen any proof. why are people so quick and sarcastic to doubt this????? im sure hes probably working on a video as we speak. you guys can call me whatever u want and keep takin stabs at Jim, but in reality you guys are the childish ones who have nothing better to do with your time than riducule somebody who doesnt have to show you guys jack **** to prove himself. his products speak for themselves. wehther or not he EVER shows you guys a vid of the 40 bps, a viking is noticeably faster than all the other guns out there so who cares what he claims???? u guys need to just lay off.

as for proving the insane speed of a viking.... i too am surprised nobody has actually made a good video of a viking shooting. i can EASILY, and i repeat EASILY outshoot a halo b at 23bps and beyond. id have to do it in simulate mode w/ debounce of 1 but i can consistently outshoot a halo b that way. it still shows how fast vikings can cycle. so why somebody asked somebody else to show their viking outshooting a halo b at 23bps, i dunno because it is extremely easy to do.

[CpSuPeRkId]

wait a sec.... is this debate about bps or cps???? because id feel really stupid knowing that i just spent all that time arguing that a gun can shoot 40 BALLS per second, because i dont beleive that for a sec. the paint would literally crack on the bottom of the breach it would be feeding so fast. i still do beleive it can CYCLE 40bps though, or darn close to it.

[GT]

Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId
but to be sarcastic about it and basically stab at a guy is more childish and ignorant than anything else ive seen.

agreed,

they WAY J&C questioned is the issued NOT the question. I would love to see a 40cps vid, however I am not going to bust anyones balls over it.


guys its just paintball:rolleyes:

[sneakyhacker420]

yup, its all about cycles per second, right now the x-valved mags are clocked at 37.__ CPS

[Marek]

It's CPS. The thread name says it all.

I see your point about the sarcasm and what not, but if someone, anyone for that matter claims that their product does something, they should have some backing.

I have a problem with people arguing that the A4 can shoot 30 bps because that is what they read. Then they have "people" telling them that it is true and that the halo can't keep up. They buy into the hype of the product through word of mouth and advertising that has no proof. I was even told by a person that there is a vid on the WDP website to prove that the Speed shoots at 29 bps and the A4 at 30 bps. I haven't found it, and the person can't remember where he found it either. If they claim this, then they should be able to have proof for it.

[Jack & Coke]

CpSuPeRkId, gtrsi

You two obviously missed it the first time I suggested it, so I'll make it easier to read:



Just put me on your ignore list and you won't have to read any more "sarcastic" or "challenging" comments by me.




Grow up, grow a pair, take control of your online life and stop whining about how I post.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/medical/brain/images_27925/crying_baby.jpg

If, in the future you find that you're feelings are still too fragile for my honest, fact-finding, anti-hype comments, you have no one but yourselves to blame!

Meanwhile, I'll still be waiting for any legit proof that a stock Viking can fully cycle 40 times per second (i.e. complete cycle = able to shoot at least one ball). I still have hope that it exists! I know in my heart this will surface. I know it's out there, I just haven't seen it yet :( Afterall, a stock Viking is THE FASTEST CYCLYING MARKER IN THE WORLD. And there are many stock Vikings out there... How hard can it be? :rolleyes:

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Okay, on the subject of 'how the hell are we supposed to test these things.'

I could be horribly wrong on this... but they use a switch of some sort to enable the circuit, right?

Why couldn't someone create an automatic trigger puller? I'm sure it's not too difficult, an adjustable frequency generator would be the place to start.

[Digits]

I don't know if this has been said yet and im not trying to be rude.. But who really cares.. The ABSOLUTE MAX you should ever need is 25bps.. 1 reson being it's not exactly physiscally possible to get over something like 22bps without bounce and such which is illegal pretty much everywhere you go.. 2 if someone was shooting 40 bps on the field (unlikely) they would just be wasting paint, and seing as how they would have to have some type of bounce to reach those speeds if they went to bunker someone.. A person could get seriously hurt.. Getting shot in the adams apple at 40 bps.. Even for half a second is still 20 balls I doubt that would feel good. 3.. Loaders.. None would feed fast enough (maybe the Q-loader, I don't know forsure)..

I don't know it's cool knowing your marker can cycle at those speeds but is it REALLY that important?

[mrhooie]

Originally posted by Digits
I don't know if this has been said yet and im not trying to be rude.. But who really cares..

Your talking to guys.. ;):)

that's who

It's the same with cars - you may have 700hp and 750ft/lb torque - but I want to see it on the dyno or on the track

Put up or shut up! (to Jim Drew - he's the one with the ability to do it easily - he's developed the technology)

[Jack & Coke]

mrhooie is correct!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Agreed, don't say it unless you can back it up with solid proof. It may be proven right, which would be cool, but until then J+C doubting it is fine. And compared to some thread topics that start here on AO, his was just referencing a show about proving the impossible which this could or could not be. So if you don't like it, take a walk, but don't whine.

[SkyBoySurfer]

Is it actauly Physicly possible to actualy FEED at that rate?

I mean we are just puting 1 ball down a tube...and the ball falls from gravity...and mabe some back preshure from the bolt (creating a vacume to pull the ball in)...

The Formula would be V=Vo+gt

I think they would have to use the Tippman A5 feed desing to keep up with it....so you have 2 or 3 balls already set and ready to go.....

I dont think gravity of the ball its self can keep up with the ROF...I think you would just end up chopping everything...and makeing one big mess.

I realy dont think with its design it can actualy reach a ROF of 40.

Unless mabe it used a thicker heaver paintball....mabe that would be a option.

Of course thats just my opion I could be wrong.

[manike]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Agreed, don't say it unless you can back it up with solid proof.

Jim Drew (WickedAirSportz) has NEVER proven any of his extraordinary claims.

He never proved the rate of feed that he claimed for the Turbo Rev.

He never proved his claims for the shoot down on the Timmy.

He never proved his claims of ROF for the timmy (I notice now that he is trying to sell boards for other guns that the ROF for the timmy he states is possible is lower than he used to claim possible... :rolleyes: )

Jim Drew makes some excellent electronics. He also makes huge hype claims about his stuff that he never EVER proves.

Jim Drew will say what ever he likes to get you to buy his latest product and to put down competing products. His products are excellent so buy them for that, not the BS claims he makes to go with them.

[P4ULuk]

Had my Viking bouncing pretty impressivly but I doubt it was anywhere near 40 cps.

Paul
:)

[GT]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
CpSuPeRkId, gtrsi

Grow up, grow a pair, take control of your online life and stop whining about how I post.

If, in the future you find that you're feelings are still too fragile for my honest, fact-finding, anti-hype comments, you have no one but yourselves to blame!

Meanwhile, I'll still be waiting for any legit proof that a stock Viking can fully cycle 40 times per second (i.e. complete cycle = able to shoot at least one ball).

Off topic:

JC what are you like 15? Maybe I will grow up to be a bg man like so many on this forum and "grow a pair" You catch more bees with honey......

Did you notice my post along with others asking about this new eye he "developed." Did you hear us scream and yell about proof run to another forum that is "antihype" and then post a poop slinging thread?

Did you see how Doc dealt with Ethan at FF? Again he didn’t run to AO and post that he was routing out hype from the far corners of paintball land.

Like I said before the way you are continuing is real mature. I understand that you want to see a vid, me too, but there is a better way. Don’t worry I wont add you to the ignore list, I enjoy posts like this for what value they truly are, pure entertainment.


On Topic:

Incase you actually read some of the Vik stuff. The WAS board wasn’t designed just with rof in mind. I believe AKA was getting the old boards locally built by a small shop of 1-2 folks (could be wrong on the size). There were a number of problems with the old boards, no eyes, rof was kinda crappy, the biggest however WAS boards deprogramming themselves, you here it referred to as “going dumb.” I in fact have one of those Vikings that has this little gift. For me it is kinda nice to replace the board and receive a bunch of extra features that were not available when the gun was first built.

BTW how many guys have had angel LCD board’s burn out and are then expected to pay 75-100 bucks for the same crap.

Note: I am note sure how truthful the above statement is given that I don’t have a vid ;)

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by manike


Jim Drew (WickedAirSportz) has NEVER proven any of his extraordinary claims.

He never proved the rate of feed that he claimed for the Turbo Rev.

He never proved his claims for the shoot down on the Timmy.

He never proved his claims of ROF for the timmy (I notice now that he is trying to sell boards for other guns that the ROF for the timmy he states is possible is lower than he used to claim possible... :rolleyes: )

Jim Drew makes some excellent electronics. He also makes huge hype claims about his stuff that he never EVER proves.

Jim Drew will say what ever he likes to get you to buy his latest product and to put down competing products. His products are excellent so buy them for that, not the BS claims he makes to go with them.

and with that, all the fun bickering died.

[hitech]

Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId
All of it stemmed when lots of AO couldn't accept the fact that there was a faster gun out there.

I believe it started when Miscue challenged WAS on the turbo rev. WAS claimed that it had "AI" and Miscue claimed that it could not as the processor did not have any where near enough power and memory.

That's the first one I remember.

[Micromag man!]

ok well, ive owned both a mag and i just bought a viking, i know whats goin down here, the mag owners feel challenged by the viking, so they, by instinct, immidiately try to shut out the viking, for they feel insecure about this new claim. the way i feel about it, if Mr Drew made claims about 40 CPS, even if it isnt completely true, im sure its in the neighborhood of it, and 40CPS or not, ur not getting 2000+ shots with a mag off a 68//45 so IMO Viking takes the cake :D AND is mr drew does prove his claim, thats just ICING on the cake. Sorry guys, get over it.

[Tobe2be]

well im a loyal mag owner i have shot a timmy and i have ripped on it. i can give a darn that a viking is better. but dont pull out numbers that cant be proven. Thats like going to a basketball court and saying you can shoot 40 points a game and are not willing to play. Either put up or shut up

[cledford]

Originally posted by Micromag man!
ok well, ive owned both a mag and i just bought a viking, i know whats goin down here, the mag owners feel challenged by the viking, so they, by instinct, immidiately try to shut out the viking, for they feel insecure about this new claim. the way i feel about it, if Mr Drew made claims about 40 CPS, even if it isnt completely true, im sure its in the neighborhood of it, and 40CPS or not, ur not getting 2000+ shots with a mag off a 68//45 so IMO Viking takes the cake :D AND is mr drew does prove his claim, thats just ICING on the cake. Sorry guys, get over it.

Wrong on this - I own a Viking and an Emag. Furthermore, I also owned a Timmy. Expecting people to produce proof of their claims (especially if they sell products based on such claims) is reasonable. If we are to expect that Jim Drew, Ethan, or anyone else is actually brilliant enough to produce products that do what they *claim* they can do -then they should also have the ability to gather data on this performance and SHOW IT to people. It's not that hard, just check out deep blue for what REAL data looks like. It certainly isn't some statement that "Bob and I did X,Y, &Z and this is what we saw..."

You guys hanging on the Drew's/Ethan's/Smart-Parts of the world are just cattle who bristle when reminded of your own apathy and lack of courage. You'd rather buy an upgrade and brag about what someone else *says* it can do rather than develop the skills and mindset to determine yourselves whether you've been lied to and paid hard earned money to only "feel good."

-Calvin

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Micromag man!
, the mag owners feel challenged by the viking, so they, by instinct, immidiately try to shut out the viking, for they feel insecure about this new claim.

Seems to me the ones with feelings of inadequacy are the ones that keep having to buy 'upgrade' boards based on unproven hype and unsubstantiated claims.


the way i feel about it, if Mr Drew made claims about 40 CPS, even if it isnt completely true, im sure its in the neighborhood of it

AO is not a board full of kiddy idol worshipers. Your opinion doesn't mean squat. We're asking what neighbourhood it's in and we want proof. Otherwise it's just empty claims and worthless personal opinion.


and 40CPS or not

Uhm, whatever. That is what this thread is all about. Where ya been? Sleeping? :rolleyes:


ur not getting 2000+ shots with a mag off a 68//45 so IMO Viking takes the cake :D AND is mr drew does prove his claim, thats just ICING on the cake. Sorry guys, get over it.

MR. Drew's claim has nothing to do with shots per tank. Nothing has been proved.

And if you are going to bring up shots per tank, it's about time someone put various guns and setups over a chrony and gave some real data on that question as well.

[Miscue]

One problem of telling users to come up with their own videos to prove to themselves that the claims are true, is that when they cannot demonstrate the claims - it could be said that it is because they are doing it wrong.

[SlartyBartFast]

You know here's a thought. Recently a whole lot of cars are being recalled because the HP isn't EXACTLY what is claimed.

This is exactly the same issue. We want to see the claimed numbers demonstrated in a repeatable manner on the equivalent of a dyno.

Otherwise all those performance claims are just set-ups for a big-ol consumer protection lawsuit.

[GT]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
You know here's a thought. Recently a whole lot of cars are being recalled because the HP isn't EXACTLY what is claimed.

This is exactly the same issue. We want to see the claimed numbers demonstrated in a repeatable manner on the equivalent of a dyno.

Otherwise all those performance claims are just set-ups for a big-ol consumer protection lawsuit.

which in itself is ironic since there are any number of factors, including different dynos that can affect hp output.

[afrankart]

Well, I just bought a new featherlite viking. I DIDN't buy it because I heard it "can" cycle at 40 cps. I did buy it because it has a lot of features and is faster and more efficient than my mech mag. I really couldn't care if it does cycle that fast. Sure, it is cool, but entirely useless and chances are you are gonna mess something up a whole lot faster firing it like that. I do beleive that Jim Drew makes good products however. I along with lots of other people would love to see him prove just one of his incredible claims.

Then maybe the anti-hype monkeys will get off his back.;)

[pito189]

Originally posted by afrankart
Then maybe the anti-hype monkeys will get off his back.;)

I don't consider myself a monkey, just because I want the truth, and not a bunch of lies and BS thrown at me.:rolleyes:

[afrankart]

Looks like I shoulda held the invisible sarcasm sign a little higher.:rolleyes:

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by afrankart
Looks like I shoulda held the invisible sarcasm sign a little higher.:rolleyes:

You better watch it afrankart! Don't you know the sarcasm gestapo is out in full effect? ;)

LOL!

Anyways, did your Viking arrive yesterday? got any pics yet?:)

[afrankart]

No, it is not here yet.... It's looking like early next week. I already have the razorblade trigger, eyes, and CCM norise just sitting here. I'll be sure to get some pics when I everything together.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I think Vikings rock and are the best gun out there right now.. I think they can shoot faster than anyone not using zero debounce can shoot... I think they can outshoot a halo for sure.... and I think they smoke all mags and don't own a mag so that is a lame excuse for you to use for why I am arguing this...but the whole point here is that if there is no proof of the 40cps, he should have never used it as a marketing line. It is an unsubstantiated claim and deserves to be put to the test, and some of you are such "yes men" to the big companies you are offended because they are being challenged and can't back their claims. You want to believe hype and get ripped off (not saying this is one, but there have been tons) then fine, your call, but don't come into this thread knocking J+C because he wants WAS to put up or shut up. Maybe the title was a little sarcastic, but some of you are the ones acting like jerks now because he wants to discuss this. Contribute to the discussion in a positive way or take a walk.

[Steelrat]

You want to believe hype and get ripped off (not saying this is one, but there have been tons) then fine, your call, but don't come into this thread knocking J+C because he wants WAS to put up or shut up. Maybe the title was a little sarcastic, but some of you are the ones acting like jerks now because he wants to discuss this. Contribute to the discussion in a positive way or take a walk.

So, if we don't nod our heads and agree with Jack, we should take a walk? Some of us are not naive. Jack took a sarcastic tone in the original questioning of Jim Drew. The majority of the people in that thread disgreed with him, so he took the fight here. YES, Jim does hype. YES, Jack did toss in a bit too much sarcasm.


You guys hanging on the Drew's/Ethan's/Smart-Parts of the world are just cattle who bristle when reminded of your own apathy and lack of courage. You'd rather buy an upgrade and brag about what someone else *says* it can do rather than develop the skills and mindset to determine yourselves whether you've been lied to and paid hard earned money to only "feel good."

This is the best line yet. Lack of courage? Hello, McFly! We are talking about PAINTBALL GUNS here. This isnt something earthshattering like a discussion of human rights in China . Please, don't try to paint those who disgree with Jack as gutless cattle, thats a little too melodramatic for the topic at hand.

I hate to break it to you all, but none of us is going to be able to get 40 cps out of our Vikings, no matter how much we play with the trigger and debounce. I am sure that Jim Drew utilized some custom software and hardware to get a viking to that speed, if indeed that ever took place. And I am also sure that if he did do it, he is not going to provide any proof, as there is absolutely no reason for him to do so. Frankly, all the people crapping all over him are probably not going to be swayed into buying any of his products, no matter how much proof, footage, etc he provides.

[Jack & Coke]

LOL!

I created this thread HERE on AO because I thought AO was still full of critical thinkers. People who have higher standards. People who demand the truth! People who are anti-hype. People who are realistic. People who like to investigate. People who like to test things. People who are objective thinkers. People of integrity. People who are trustworthy of honest unbiased opinions ...and of course, people who have a sense of humor.

It appears I may have been wrong.

I crack up at how hyper sensative some of you are when it comes to the topic of "sarcasm". :eek: LOL! Especially when it regards the performance capabilities of marker you either own or would like to sleep with.

LOL!

The thread topic is WAS's claim regarding the stock Viking and it's supposed capability to hit 40 cycles per second. I didn't even ask the harder question of COMPLETE Legit CYCLES or whether it had NO DROP OFF.

I never even said it couldn't be done. I just politely asked HOW HE GOT 40 and if he had any PROOF. If there's none, then so be it. Say so, and we move on.

Instead of helping to answer the questions, a few jock riders start crying about how I was too sarcastic. Too mean to WAS. Oooooo big bad Jack & Coke... how dare he question WAS. He makes our gunz roxor! Everything he says must be true!

My conclusion: AO has caught the PBN.

[Miscue]

Some of us know what you mean... and appreciate your posts. :D

[LaW]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke

My conclusion: AO has caught the PBN.

Seems so doesn't it

[SkyBoySurfer]

Rock on J&C Rock on!!!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Steelrat, my biggest issue is people are dismissing J+C's claim that the WAS statement was bogus and requires proof by basically saying that we must just be jealous of the WAS boarded guns which is just moronic and the "if WAS said it, it's got to be close enough so drop the issue" mentality. That's not contributing, that's being narrowminded.

[jdev]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
My conclusion: AO has caught the PBN.

that right there, is the awesome..

sigged

[Steelrat]

No, AO has not caught the PBN. Unfortuately, AO is proving all those accustions that are made about it on PBN.

[GT]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
People who are trustworthy of honest unbiased opinions

It appears I may have been wrong.

a few jock riders start crying

My conclusion: AO has caught the PBN.
Yes J&C please continue to put down myself and others, personally I might ad, for simply asking you to become a little less hostile in your replies. Did I ever personally insult you?

Do you understand what unbiased means? There is a big difference between unbiased questioning and sarcastic smartass. Agian look to DOC for his replies to Ethan/FF

You maybe the one that is adding PbN'ness of AO..

jb

BTW: Don’t ever comment about my character "jock riding" on anyone .

Personal Note: Do I have an interest in seeing a Viking hit 40cps? Even though I am an owner I could really careless, however since AO has turned "anit-hype" into "witch hunting" I feel the need to post in this topic, although a vid of 40 cps would be sweet. Also note my previous post J&C the EQ board, in my opinion, brought the Viking to another level for a number of reasons. Don’t knock a product on one unproven aspect.

Edit: my spelling sucks!

[Jack & Coke]

Dude, how many times are you going to keep repeating yourself?

If you don't like "how" I expose unproven hype, you don't have to read my posts.

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF HUMANITY...

Just move along and try to resist any further temptations to clutter this thread with non-relevant personal flame baiting attempts...

[pbjosh]

Sheesh-

I did easily hit 36cps on Don's (from 'Modified Paintball') Morlock powered Viking, and that time produced a full power shot, (280fps when fired in SemiAuto) and allowed for a full return on the bolt/ram.

If I hadn't of ran out of air I may have been able to run it at 40cps and still had a full power shot. The ON time was really really low, about 15ms. It did cycle at 8ms, but I don't know the velocity. The ram pressure was light enough that I could put my finger in the breech and not hurt it.

From my experience, I have thought the Viking was one of the fastest markers for quite a while.

40cps should be easy, but remember, you will never cycle that fast, and anything above 15bps will only be shot by the few, and rarely in a 'real world' setting. So why are you arguing about it?

Josh

[TheGreatPru]

somebody needs to define a "cycle" before we can start to mesure CPS. depending on whos definition you use there could be a wide varity of values for CPS.

for example, on an autococker or excal i define a cycle as 'shoot, wait, open, close'. i have my eblade timed (w/o the eye obviously) to shoot at 23 CPS, but thats becuase i have the wait time to only 1 ms so there is blow back, and the bolt will not stay open long enough to load paint. it does however compleate each cycle, becuase every time i pull the trigger it shoots (valve opens) the bolt goes all the way back so the sear catches the lug so it can be shot again, and the bolt closes all the way before the next shot. i know this becuase i minimized the trigger filters, and set up the trigger to be ultra bouncy and let it bounce. if i timed the cycle to short, the sear would not catch, or the bolt would not go all the way closed before the next shot (tested by weather or not the back block slaped the body or not). so it was doing a good 23 CPS, as close to full auto as i could get it. loading paint was out of the question though, but it did do a compleate cycle EVERY time.

on an electro pnematic ram-bolt, i would define a cycle as differnt though. one cylce being that the ram moves forward to open the valve (how long is a differnt story) and returning to the fully opened (rest) position. to me, thats a cycle.

once you start adding in dwell times to make sure the valve is open long enough to reach 300 fps at the operating pressure that the gun was designed to be run at, cycle times will change drastically. changing a 25ms cycle time (at 40CPS, the cycle time is 25ms), increased by 10ms will change into 28 CPS, where as if you decrease it by 10ms you would get 66 CPS

now, taking that into consideration, i am pretty sure that Jim said he liked the older mac 'noids even though they needed a longer dwell time, which means that if a test value of only 5ms dwell will indeed open the valve, he would have to add 10ms to get back to normal dwell (15-ish) for a viking with mac noids. so 40 CPS at 5ms dwell, + 10ms for 'real world' dwell would be 28 CPS, and guess what, now all of the sudden it seems like a lot more reasonable number huh . . .

i am not saying that jims claims are true, and for the record, i dont have one of his boards in my viking. what i am saying is that depending on how you manipulate your numbers, it COULD be true. if you dont understand, i will be glad to post some non-paintball stats which should help raise the comprehension level.

IMPORTANT PART :
so, before anybody else gets all pissy, define what it is that you are actually arguing about, find out if thats the same thing that Jim claims, and then have your discussion. (and once you do, do it in a ciilized manner befitting of AO -> wise man once said "sarcasim is the tool of a week mind")

on a personal note : man is this thread been annoying, grow up !!

[pbjosh]

Okay-

For timing issues, I was setting up a Morlock Board, which was set in Single Soleniod mode. The On time was 15ms (12 worked just as well, IIRC, but I didn't lower the total cycle time. 8ms might have had a low velocity, but the gun did cycle) and the Total cycle time (time between each cycle) was 28ms.

Or, 35.7 signals/cycles per second was sent from the board. The solenoid was on for 15ms, and off for 13ms. In Full Auto the gun cycled without a mishap. In Semi I could easily fire at a consistant 280-285. The bolt returned fully far enough back that you could see it open all the way (by looking into the feedneck.)

Hence, a FULL cycle, including a FULL velocity shot, was obtained. At 36cps. By me. I am not selling anything viking related, nore am I sponcered or otherwise. Just a guy tinkering in his backyard.

Mind you, this is a Morlock board. No 'bounce filter' or otherwise, just a straight forward per shot and cycle in FA.

Josh

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by TheGreatPru


...wise man once said "sarcasim is the tool of a week mind"

[Jack & Coke]

:) All joking aside... TheGreatPru and pbjosh, thanks for your constructive and informative posts regarding the cycling times of the Morlock in your guns.

Although these are not stock conditions, they do illustrate great performance potential. I wonder what the difference is between programmed time settings and actual recorded test numbers...

Also, wouldn't the bolt cycle speed be faster if there were higher pressure pushing back and forth? If that's the case, then wouldn't a "high operating pressure" setup be faster than a "low operating pressure" setup? BTW, what is the operating pressure of a stock Viking?

[afrankart]

I beleive the sidewinder takes it down to 180-200psi. Then the LPR takes it down more, to 85psi stock. There is some speculation going on at the AKA forum on pbnation that turning the LPR up will infact make the internals cycle faster. Of course by doing this, they will be much more prone to chopping, however not if the eyes do their job.

[Jack & Coke]

So if you had a top of the line ACE system, would there still be a need for a LPR? Would the noid be able to handle the pressure coming out of the main in-line?

[afrankart]

This I don't know for sure. I do know that AKA said somewhere that a LPR output greater than 115 can cause potential damage to the solenoid. 72psi seems to be the optimal operating pressure. Although I am pretty sure that it is not optimal for yeilding 40cps results.

[pbjosh]

"Although these are not stock conditions"

ehm,*cough*, short of the morlock, the gun was completely stock. The circuit board, since all it does is send a jolt of power, really didn't affect anything too much. As long at the board design doesn't completely suck, there should be no difference in the mechanical action of the gun based on which board used.

There was shoot down, but that was due to the HPA tank being low on air. At that speed, I basicly was happy to have shot the gun so fast!

As for the gun cycling faster at higher pressure, that how we first got cockers to 20bps. HP means the solenoid cycles faster, the ram gets air faster, and has more force to move it, so, yes, the ROF/CPS is increased with higher LPR pressure.

Josh

[afrankart]

Originally posted by pbjosh
[BAs for the gun cycling faster at higher pressure, that how we first got cockers to 20bps. HP means the solenoid cycles faster, the ram gets air faster, and has more force to move it, so, yes, the ROF/CPS is increased with higher LPR pressure.[/B]

Not only would it get the internals moving faster, but I would assume that at a higher psi, you could reduce the dwell time a few ms due to more pressure pushing the ball. This in itself would help speed up the cycling time.

[jdev]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
All you AO Viking owers, did you know your stock Vikings can do 40 CPS?

Can someone please record a video clip of their stock Viking doing 40 cps?

Thanks;) [/B]

I do now:

http://pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=361344


that is froth from the AKA forums @ PBN. trigger guru extrodinaire. doesnt come to 40 exactly, comes to 39.7 according to him. but, because the fda can call stuff fat free if it contains less than 2% of the daily allowance or something like that.. i suppose you can call this 40 easily. ;)

enjoy.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I wonder if J+C can do that sound-examination he did on his full-auto mag. And I really wish I could definitively tell if he had the debounce lower. Look at your trigger finger, move it up and down, and imagine doing that 20 times within the time someone can say one mississippi. Even 15 times=30cps seems a stretch but who knows they guy could be that good, it's just impossible to tell on the video.

Either way, if the sound file checks out I'd consider that the proof it can go up to 40/sec.

[magnj]

Originally posted by joey d


I do now:

http://pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=361344


that is froth from the AKA forums @ PBN. trigger guru extrodinaire. doesnt come to 40 exactly, comes to 39.7 according to him. but, because the fda can call stuff fat free if it contains less than 2% of the daily allowance or something like that.. i suppose you can call this 40 easily. ;)

enjoy.

Thank you and goodnight

[yeahthatsme]

Originally posted by pito189
Here is a picture of the Viking with a watch next to it. Kinda similiar to that Timmy video...;)



P.S. it's not really a picture of the video.


uuummmm thats a rat impulse from the rat video, not a viking....

[FreshmanBob]

J&C, I'm sorry, but not to sound like a biased viking owner or anything, but its really looking like Jim Drew was right after all. I think your a cool guy and really enjoy reading most of the stuff you do with markers, but I can't help but grin at this.

Anyway, on with the sound analysis!

[cledford]

People never seem to get it :(

JC was not saying that a Viking couldn't cycle X CPS - he was asking how WAS determined that it could with no data that he could (or was willing) to provide. Sure you can say "shorter ram stroke leads to faster cycling" but when someone simply asks "What is the length?" and you can't answer everything else stated is suspect. So did the Viking actually end up achiving what was claimed? I guess so - but that wasn't the real issue. Could we have sat around and all taken guesses at what the CPS was and someone still been right? Sure, and there is no difference between that guy and what someone else claims more but without posting data.

The other question still stands - does it do it without shootdown?

-Calvin
(proud owner of WASed AKA 03 Viking)

[TransMan]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
I wonder if J+C can do that sound-examination he did on his full-auto mag. And I really wish I could definitively tell if he had the debounce lower. Look at your trigger finger, move it up and down, and imagine doing that 20 times within the time someone can say one mississippi. Even 15 times=30cps seems a stretch but who knows they guy could be that good, it's just impossible to tell on the video.

Either way, if the sound file checks out I'd consider that the proof it can go up to 40/sec.
The way you can tell is when he pulled the trigger normaly and it shot once if it was at a low debounce it would have shot about 3 times.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Oh christ before this starts again... J+C owns a bunch of high-speed markers including a timmy and I am a total mark for AKA products... IT'S NOT US SAYING IT COULDN'T EVER SHOOT THAT FAST!!!! J+C wanted to see the numbers/vid because so many companies make bogus claims and having solid numbers will back a claim up but also because he is a tinkerer and interested in that type of stuff. It was shady that Jim Drew made the claim and couldn't back it up immediately which is what prompted the tread. Now we have some proof which is cool. I am impressed and respect these results and I am very sure J+C will respect it, it's a few bullheaded people here who are thinking he said something he didn't. And I say only a few because alot of you are actually contributing good constructive remarks. It's the stray idiot that makes this aggravating.

On a side note, notice Froth says in the thread the Angel Speed, which is infamous for the claim of 30cps, topped out at 20 or so? THAT is the reason why people like J+C sometimes ask to see some proof to support a claim. The Angel claim was proven bogus. So should we have just assumed it was true? NO!

This place is worse than PBN sometimes... some of us here still think and are willing to ask "why" and "how" when a company says they can do something and don't follow up with anything to justify the claim. Contribute your opinion but don't rudely flame the person or rub it in his face, you're just acting like a jerk if you do.

That's my rant, and for the record I do think the Viking is the top marker out right now and that vid is just SICK. good night!

[Marek]

What the hell is a rant? :D

[FreshmanBob]

Guys, I never said J an C didn't think it could go to 40, all I said was Jim was right, despite some of the things he tries to pull. This is getting blown out of proportion.

[Prairie]

I dont know about 40...but a viking can easily get 32 cps...bounce

www.flagpull.com/AKA/lawn.wmv - thats me, WAS debounce 1, dwell 13, default razor trigger.

I am a frequent member of the AKA community, and friends with froth..but I have my doubts of his 40cps claim.

[TransMan]

Well im pretty sure that when he gets the audio equipment that he needs he will prove his self right and i cant wait to see it. I also cant wait to see what happens when he puts paint in it that should give us a good idea of how fast the eyes are.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by joey d


I do now:

http://pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=361344


that is froth from the AKA forums @ PBN. trigger guru extrodinaire. doesnt come to 40 exactly, comes to 39.7 according to him. but, because the fda can call stuff fat free if it contains less than 2% of the daily allowance or something like that.. i suppose you can call this 40 easily. ;)

enjoy.

Wow that sure sounds fast...

However, with precision claims of 39.2 and 39.7, I expected a much better quality recording :(

When I play the http://mywebpages.comcast.net/c77bronco/40cps.wmv clip, the audio is all garbled. He says he "cleaned it up" with Cooledit, but sounds terrible! Even after I converted the audio track into a wav file using dBpowerAMP Audio Converter, it was all mucked up and illegible. There were NO distinguishable peaks to count.

I was really looking forward to this "40 cps proof"... how disappointing... :(




Originally posted by cledford
People never seem to get it :(

JC was not saying that a Viking couldn't cycle X CPS - he was asking how WAS determined that it could with no data that he could (or was willing) to provide. Sure you can say "shorter ram stroke leads to faster cycling" but when someone simply asks "What is the length?" and you can't answer everything else stated is suspect. So did the Viking actually end up achiving what was claimed? I guess so - but that wasn't the real issue. Could we have sat around and all taken guesses at what the CPS was and someone still been right? Sure, and there is no difference between that guy and what someone else claims more but without posting data.

The other question still stands - does it do it without shootdown?

-Calvin
(proud owner of WASed AKA 03 Viking)

cledford is correct!

QUINCYMASSGUY is correct also!

I'll repeat again... I do not think 40 or 50 cps is impossible. But, you better come up with some legit, good quality proof because 40+ cps is very very very fast.

As far as raking 40 cps "without" trigger bounce (as claimed by the author), what do you think the cycle rate of his raking finger must be in order to make the trigger switch on and off 40 times per second? How fast do you think his finger is moving up and down?

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Before anyone flames J+C for still not believing, a direct quote from Froth in his PBN thread:

"I will admit the posibility of some of this being echo, I do need a better mic to Outrightly prove this, as using an Enhanced Sound clip really isnt the best way to do it as you stated, the high points could also be from room echo."

And he also states something along the line of it possibly not being 40 but definitely above 20, which is not what we're arguing, so a valid case does exist in continuing this. Strange thing is, he mentioned Jim Drew has proven this through video (least I think he said that) so I'd be curious to see it.

[cphilip]

You know what always interests me is that when someone says "Prove it" the believers without proof always consider that rude. is this guy a God to some of you? I certainly do not think so. I respect his work and his stuff. But I also respect my local dog catcher for that too! He does make some good stuff. Everyone aknowledges that. But however that does not elivate him to some status that does not allow questioning and proof. In fact it makes him a target of just that. In fact he is obligated to provide proof. He is the seller and the Claimer of these things. Its his duty to be able to prove it. Anyone out there selling Paintball stuff should expect it. And should be prepared to prove it. And in fact I find it more rude for anyone to then try and question the motives of the skeptic trying to get the truth! I like skeptics. For just being skeptics. :D

[afrankart]

Froth's claim to 40 CPS has absolutely nothing to do with any product that he manufactures and produces.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by afrankart
Froth's claim to 40 CPS has absolutely nothing to do with any product that he manufactures and produces.

Which is part of why people were initially impressed.:)

Then the quality of the recording and Froth's own admissions questioned the validity of the data.:(

So we wait for something more reliable......

[wyn1370]

can somebody please point me to the AGD video of the retro cycling at top speed?

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by wyn1370
can somebody please point me to the AGD video of the retro cycling at top speed?

Plenty of video out there. At least of Automags doing full auto at 20 bps shooting paint. Tom, Butterfingers, the guys from HALO...

And I even think there was one at 30cps with no paint.

And I'd love to see a proper test done with the data avaialble to show that there's no shootdown. But there have been graphs in Deep Blue showing the AIR valve recharge rate compared to other valves/regulators so it's very believable that 20 bps is viable for the Automag.

But wyn, from your post I will asume that you've missed the point of the thread. The point is not to put down other markers and promote the Automag. It's to demand proof of one manufacturers marketing claims of 40 cps.

I think anybody making claims of cps is a joke to begin with. Without paint the marker is useless so who cares.

I think all markers should be tested over a chronograph to prove what bps they can reliably fire at without shootdown or other unacceptable deviation.

Until someone is setup to do that independantly, the call for those making the claims to put up or shut up is valid.

[wyn1370]

nah, I'm just complaining cause AGD has never done their own video (26cps or other). Yet everyone wants other manufacturers to do this. And butters doesn't work for AGD, he was doing a video of the emagnum board.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by wyn1370
nah, I'm just complaining cause AGD has never done their own video (26cps or other). Yet everyone wants other manufacturers to do this. And butters doesn't work for AGD, he was doing a video of the emagnum board.

Well, EMagnum or not, that was still a standard E-Mag/Retro valve.

But also, the only claims that AGD have made were recharges to 26bps. The regulator recharge rate graphs in Deep Blue proved that.

Heck, if anything AGD seems to downplay their performance.

[Jack & Coke]

Note: I'm not against any marker. I think it's dumb to playa-hate (marka-hate?)

When someone boasts numbers at the cutting edge of todays marker performance, is it so wrong to ask,

"wow! how did you come up with those numbers?"

As far as shootdown goes, all of the "40+ cps Viking" claims are made with a non-operational marker (i.e. they all put the bolt in upside-down).

So, is it really a complete cycle, if the gun can't shoot balls at 300 fps?

[afrankart]

I have bounced my viking as fast as it will go with stock everything. I tried with the bolt in backwards and forwards. To my ears (I don't have recording equipment) there is no audible difference in rof. The ONLY thing that putting the bolt in backwards does is reduce air consumption and keep you from getting a headache.

[Butterfingers]

feed the thing!!!

http://paintball.butters.org

it probably can go faster... i dunno the e-magnum was sold ages ago...

The bolt was in upside down sideways and at 15, 30, 45, 75 degree angles for this test.

Having the bolt in backwards sure does matter... it reduces air consumption to the point that the regulator and the internals have to move less air. Thereby higher speeds are acheivable.

I wouldent be so fast to discount the tests either the stacked tube design has been around for years. Given an adequate air supply I could make a spyder cycle at 50 cps. The mechanical design of the gun is capable.

Wether or not the bolt is open long enough to allow proper feeding is a diffrent story. I have not yet seen a consistent video of a gun firing over 25 bps at regular intervals with the feeding equipment we have today.

[pbjosh]

Again-


For timing issues, I was setting up a Morlock Board, which was set in Single Soleniod mode. The On time was 15ms (12 worked just as well, IIRC, but I didn't lower the total cycle time. 8ms might have had a low velocity, but the gun did cycle) and the Total cycle time (time between each cycle) was 28ms.

Or, 35.7 signals/cycles per second was sent from the board. The solenoid was on for 15ms, and off for 13ms. In Full Auto the gun cycled without a mishap. In Semi I could easily fire at a consistant 280-285. The bolt returned fully far enough back that you could see it open all the way (by looking into the feedneck.)

Hence, a FULL cycle, including a FULL velocity shot, was obtained. At 36cps. By me. I am not selling anything viking related, nore am I sponcered or otherwise. Just a guy tinkering in his backyard.

Mind you, this is a Morlock board. No 'bounce filter' or otherwise, just a straight forward per shot and cycle in FA.


The issue is mute concerning the Vikings ability to run at 40cps. I, having come really close with a stock setup without even trying, figure it would take about 1 more half hour to tune it down to run that fast.

Like it was fore-mentioned:

The Viking CAN cycle that fast. Since the WAS, and a couple other boards, can be timed by the millisecond, then any one of them would be able to cycle the viking at that speed.

Do not doubt that quite a few guns can cycle at that nearly the same CPS (note, CPS is different than BPS, and that argument is, again, mute. We ARE talking about setting the time to allow the hammer/bolt to cycle all the way forward, releasing enough energy for one shot, then fully returning to the back position) and if a longer load time was added, 10ms worth, it would be shown that the top end STEBBs can all shoot close to that speed.

Again I am not supporting anything. I am relating my experiences from the similar test with a morlock. The Intimidator is set to have 8ms 'ON' time. If the return/opening/'OFF' time for the marker was even twice that then the total time is 24ms per cycle. Add that up really really quick.

So, yes, to answer your question Jack & Coke-

That was a full 285fps shot. The LPR was set low enough that I was quite confortable putting my finger in the feedneck and running full auto, and the resulting pressure was quite a bit lighter than a Jam Enterprises bolt, so I didn't have the LPR cranked to a level I wouldn't use in a game.

The Viking can do it.

Josh

[_Spork_1]

The Speed with an Equalizer board (with eye system) is blazingly fast, and probably the fastest paintball marker setup in existance

though it isn't a stock speed, WAS does like to promote what ever new item they're trying to sell.

[pbjosh]

When I did the Racegun setups, I said:

"The Racegun grip doesn't make it faster. It just lets it run as fast as it always could."

The limit is the person behind the gun.

In the case of WAS, it isn't the board, it was the gun. Adding electronics allows millisecond timing action.

What ever time the WAS board produces can be duplicated with any board that is setup with the same on and off time for the solenoid.

The board is easy to time, and to the ms, so the gun, which previously had a cap, is now unleased.

I just did it over a year before WAS did.

Do I get the sticker?

Josh