Introduceing the prototype iX-Mag moduler body

[hostage]

EDIT: The breach swapping has been dropped.

We are going with one of two systems.
A. Fix feed system (Warp Right 1st, Vert 2nd, and then Warp Left)

B. An all in one multifeed system. Gives you the ability to switch from warp R & Left and vert with out having to purchase any additional parts. (look on the 2nd page on the thread for more info)

Specs
Cocker Threads
Angel Detents
Over The Valve milling
Fixed or multifeed system
Ability to take eye
Compatible with all but Classic RT's, we may mill some grooves on some runs for the Automag68 grip frames.
and much more...
-Hostage
http://www.rit.edu/~dji1133/pics/raw%20body%201.jpg

[paintballman333]

I'm in once your done, that thing looks like its gonna be sweet!:D

[Mossman]

now that thing looks so pimp even I would buy a similar looking device and wait a month for it to ship over a major ocean!

[hostage]

Here is a pic of a Timmy project he is finishing for another guy.
http://www.rit.edu/~dji1133/pics/pimp%204.jpg

[spydervenom]

so is it supposed to be a sluggo of sorts or will it stay like that?

[sneakyhacker420]

its just too plain like the non-cnc x-mags

btw its modular


some milling would be nice on the back to take off the extra weight and shear blockiness of it


lets have a few autocad gurus take this on and see what they can come up with for milling

[hostage]

sneaky-sorry, I am a horrible speller. :(

I put this pic up to say we are working on it and if anyone has any ideas of some designs they would like to see or add to let us know. I want to show proof that we are working on it and not just thinking about it. :)

This is not a sluggo concept. It will be milled to give it a unique CNC design. We don't want to copy the AGD "CNC" body, but make a "modular" body that has its own personality. (ie SFL vs CNC) We just want feedback on what we should do. Get the photoshop kiddies edit the pic we attached.:D So this is no where near the finished design, we just have the basic design and want to see where we will go from here. The good news the hard part is pretty much over.

Sorry though he will not part with this cad file. :(

[sneakyhacker420]

i think you guys should work on a rotating breech for this like they have as an aftermarket product for matrixes

[hostage]

That is a little bit more than what we want to do at this point. I am just wanting people's opinions on how we should mill this prototype into a beautiful masterpiece.
-Doron

[sneakyhacker420]

alright, thats what i was thinking... i was just getting a bit to far into my dreamy ideas in my head :rolleyes:


if he would relase the CAD file, i could have some fun with it in AutoCAD class @ school :)http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[spantol]

JAM's 2K4 Emag concepts would be a great place to start. Check them out here: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82656

[spantol]

I'd pay through the nose for this, for example:

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=802371

[hostage]

interesting, though they look like they are non-modular. Well keep the ideas comeing in.
-Doron

[manike]

Originally posted by hostage
if anyone has any ideas or suggestions that they may give us feedback.

Unless you have permission I suggest you do something original rather than stealing the design and work of other people. But that's just me.

I also believe the modular design of the X-mag body is subject to patent pending status.

Are you intending to make these parts from extrusion or from solid billets? If solid billets there is no need to copy the original style from the X-mag. Do something different.

The intimidator body is nice and clean, but will take some time with 3D milling. Are you intending to cut the feed tube as part of the body?

[hostage]

I am not doing the actual milling or drawing, a friend of mine is. We are not going to "copy" what they have we are going to use their standards then give it a unique look. Read the posts I put, we want a different looking modular body. The pic of the timmy is just some of the stuff he is working on, I'll pass the question on to him.
-Doron

[manike]

Originally posted by hostage
We are not going to "copy" what they have


Originally posted by hostage
we are going to use their standards

:rolleyes:

Sounds like copying/ripping off to me.

I read your posts. You are stealing their idea for a modular design, and all the hard work they put into coming up with a working design and dimensions.

[hostage]

We created the cad file, we did not go into their home and take it off their PC. Next I talked to a few people that are allied with AGD, that do simular work and they said AGD most likely wouldn't care. People make custom ULE rails, bodies, grips, battery packs, grip frames, and the list goes on. Why don't you go after them to?

If Tom has any objections I will listen. Copying or stilling it would be making an almost carbon copy. We are make a very different look for the this body. If you want to discuss this with me over aim or what not. Just please don't terrorize my thread.

Also easy for you to say that, since you can get the bodies from Europe, you know how many people want them over here? Should i make a revolutionary design that makes people buy new parts etc? They are using cocker threads, angel detents and I do not think they invented those either. Those are standards, they can buy a warp or vert from AGD if they want and can be able to place it in this body.

-Doron

[manike]

Originally posted by hostage
We created the cad file, we did not go into their home and take it off their PC.

No you reversed engineered their product and circumnavigated all the original thinking and design work that went into it. You aren't doing your own original thinking but instead believing it is ok to use someone elses.


Originally posted by hostage
Next I talked to a few people that are allied with AGD, that do simular work and they said AGD most likely wouldn't care.

Who did you talk to? You sure as hell didn't speak to me, John Sosta, Jackie Sosta or John Bonich, the people that worked on this project.


Originally posted by hostage
If Tom has any objections I will listen.

Tom didn't design this, or put the time money and effort into R&D'ing it. Jackie and John Sosta are the ones you should talk to.


Originally posted by hostage
you know how many people want them over here?

So that makes it ok for you to steal the look and design concepts?


Originally posted by hostage
Should i make a revolutionary design that makes people buy new parts etc? They are using cocker threads, angel detents and I do not think they invented those either. Those are standards, they can buy a warp or vert from AGD if they want and can be able to place it in this body.

Yes you absolutely should do some revolutionary design.

I would have no problem with you making an aluminium body that takes cocker threads and angel detents. That's not what I have issue with.

I have issue with you stealing the modular breech design and posting images of something which blatantly looks like a copy of the basic X-mag.

If you had posted pictures of a different style main shape with cocker threaded front and your own design of breech or a fixed breech then I would be all over this thread trying to help you.

Instead you are stealing ideas from friends of mine and I don't like that.

[hostage]

hrmm...seems like the kettle is calling the pot black. Do you think anyone has a "totally unique" design. All people do is stand on the backs of other people to make something better. The micromag was the first all in one body (rail and body) with cocker threads. Did they rant and rave when you took their idea and improved on it? If I redisigned to not use the breaches would you shut the heck up? Since that seems to be the ONLY basis for your agruement. You could of also complained when I was talking about it a few months ago, instead of waiting now.
-Doron

[manike]

Originally posted by hostage
If I redisigned to not use the breaches would you shut the heck up? Since that seems to be the ONLY basis for your agruement.

Yes, if you made the outside look different also. :D

I didn't see this before. I've not been on the forums as much lately. :(

You are correct in that very few people are truely original. But to just copy the dimensions and look of something someone else did is a bit much, isn't it?

Yes people do stand on the backs of others to make things that are better (which is a good thing), but that's not what you are doing at all. You are swiping out their legs and running off with their design. If you had anything original or better in your design I don't see it? :confused:

There are many differences in the micro mag and X-mag that makes them different products. The people that made the X-mag very definitely didn't just go and steal the dimensions for their work from the Micro mag.

[dansim]

---You could of also complained when I was talking about it a few months ago, instead of waiting now.
-Doron---


dude its just a non cnc xmag body, you stole a patent pending idea for removable breech(module), and didnt do any free thinking at all, and to have the adaucity to think that all of your posts demand eveyones attention 100% of the time is retarded, i would like to see you produce many many bodys and then sosta can pull a SP on you:rolleyes:

[adlar]

Is this going to be a body built from scratch based off the original X-Mag design, or are existing x-mag bodies going to be purchased to custom mill? I don't see a problem with taking an existing body and remilling it, this seems like fairly common practice, but if the intent is to make the body from scratch, then I don't think the footing is so solid. I'm guessing that the intent is to build from scratch due to the difficulty of getting the base bodies. A more unique design should be pursued. I guess it could be argued that the Angel already has a sort of modular breech, even if it works differently.

[Hexis]

Why not be honest and say you are working on a milling design for the standard X-Mag body? That's all you are really doing.

[Muzikman]

I agree fully with Manike. I opened this thread and thought to myself....wow, someone stole the 3D drawings of the Xmag.

[Hexis]

Well, they did recreate them, not steal them. But that's all that is is a recreaation of an existing part. Nothing creative.

[TheTramp]

It would be nice if they could pay a small licensing fee and produce their verison of the body. It would be cool to be able to get different versions of the X-Mag body without having to go to England to do it.

[Hexis]

I'll just sit here while Manike gets fired up. This outta be fun to watch.

[Gecko]

Shocktech made the sfl from european x mag bodies.
They were simply the first custom milled x mag

[manike]

Originally posted by Hexis
I'll just sit here while Manike gets fired up. This outta be fun to watch.

I'm cool. :cool: :)


Originally posted by TheTramp
It would be nice if they could pay a licensing fee and produce their verison of the body. It would be cool to be able to get different versions of the X-Mag body without having to go to England to do it.

Agreed. But the licencing fee would need to be enough to help cover all of AGDE's R&D costs on this project. That's my whole point.


Originally posted by Hexis
Well, they did recreate them, not steal them. But that's all that is is a recreaation of an existing part. Nothing creative.

They recreated the CAD file. They stole the design concept/idea/dimensions. Two different but important points in my opinion.


Originally posted by Hexis
Why not be honest and say you are working on a milling design for the standard X-Mag body? That's all you are really doing.

That would be cool, and fine by me and I expect AGDE as long as any milling didn't cause warranty issues that weren't AGDE's fault.


Originally posted by adlar
I don't see a problem with taking an existing body and remilling it, this seems like fairly common practice

Nor do I. :D

[DiRTyBuNNy]

So...not to hijack the thread...but Simon...how about coming down to San Diego and helping Dye re-design the stun gun from Enterprise...I mean the new Matrix...

[manike]

I don't think Dye would let me. :D

Instead I go to San Francisco and help Bob Long. :cool:

[trxtr]

this seems like a supply vs demand issue. If it goes thru will it be fair? No. Neither was AKA's Vert Feed Merlin Body. Legal? Perhaps. Will people buy it any ways because they can't get their hands on the original? Probably, especially if it's cheaper.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

The problem with the WGP/AKA issue was that Bud did not patent/trademark the design of the cocker body and just assumed everyone would honor the old time gentlemen's agreement that no one would copy him. Someone did..he sued...he lost...so he trademarked the name instead..

AGDE does, and Simon can verify/deny this, in fact have a patent pending on the modular portion of the X-Mag's body. So therefore you would be committing infringement by incorporating that into your body without paying licensing. If you want to lose your behind for no reason go right ahead..I'm not going to stop you..but don't claim ignorance around here.


and as for Simon...well..at least Dye was smart enough to hire eGi to do the eye/board combo for the new DM4..

[hitech]

Originally posted by manike
Instead I go to San Francisco and help Bob Long. :cool:

When are you coming out? You guys going to play a little paintball when you are here? I haven't talked to Bob in forever. If you guys go to a field somewhere maybe I can show up and renew old "friendships" and make new ones. :D

[hostage]

Though what is yalls opinions on 3rd party parts? Many people make copies of AGD products with very little changes. I dont see the difference.

Well on second thought it might be better to make a non-breach body with the extensive milling we were planning on doing. Would be cheaper and easier, we could make a warp right first.

Anyway if we do that then mine would be the only one with breach, since all we would do with it is just do the exenstive milling. That will be the prototype just with a breach hrmm.

Correct me if I am wrong, though I don't know if the patents apply to the US. In any case if the original designer respectfully asks me not to, I will reconsider using the breach in the bodies.
-Doron

[crankydan]

I like the non-breach bodies anyway. Everyone I have known, has removed their warp feed. IMO they are nothing more than a over priced EMag.

You guys keep up the work, I think it is great that design improvement continues for the EMag.

[Kevmaster]

I would presume they have US patents as well as British ones.

and I too saw this and thought I was looking at the unmilled Extreme Emag.


why can people make aftermarket parts for the mag? they don't use a patented idea. I can make a rail to AGD specs...AGD doesnt have a patent on the rail. They have a patent on using a removable breech retained by the barrel. They don't have a patent on the grip frame...they do on the X-Valve. I can't go make my own X-Valve right now and sell it here...AGD wouldnt let me

[FreakBaller12]

this is what i'm thinking of
near the back of the valve have have 4 poitns coming out
exactly like the side of an xmag body but have that on the top and bottom but still leave a spot for the fiedl strip screw
then bring a groove or wave coming from each to make an "X" right by the breech

rough 2 second drawing to just give you an idea

[Blennidae]

Why not avoid the possible legal issues and design a body that can be milled for either warp or vert feed with minimal changes.

I would think that even those players lucky enough to have the modular breech bodies don't switch back and forth between the two that often.

[Hexis]

I can understand the modular approach. It allows for one main part fo be made, with out worrying how many of what style feed you need. Then create a much smaller part to fit the needs of the orders. It's much easier to spit out a bunch of vert feed modules than an bunch of vert feed bodies.

[sneakyhacker420]

i just came up with an idea at school today

if AGD has the patent on removable breeches that are held in place by the barrel, you could probably go about a flip-open breech like the angel has, with the twist knob on the back with the rod inside to lock the breech in place, then somehow you could slide the breech off and replace it with another one


another idea that i think would be extremely good, would be to have WGP or WDP threaded feednecks, instead of one thats pushed into place like the AGD ones

[RenagadeOfFunk]

Originally posted by spantol
I'd pay through the nose for this, for example:

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=802371

AGREED but i would want the blue black and the black red... :)

[manike]

Originally posted by hitech
When are you coming out? You guys going to play a little paintball when you are here? I haven't talked to Bob in forever. If you guys go to a field somewhere maybe I can show up and renew old "friendships" and make new ones. :D

Sorry you missed me this time already. I was there the whole of last weekend. Sleeping in his 'trophy room' :eek: and playing X-ball all weekend.

I have little doubt I will be back there again at some point in the future. If I will have time I'll post up when my next trip is. :D

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by hostage
Those are standards, they can buy a warp or vert from AGD if they want and can be able to place it in this body.

-Doron

Well that sounds like a blatent rip off.Then calling it the iX-Mag,I suppose that's not also intending to mislead.:rolleyes:

[sneakyhacker420]

also, i just thought that i'd mention that AGD is out of stock of warp and centerfeed breeches, and they won't be getting any extra for a LONG time

[hostage]

Okay here are the two options that I will consider, please yall pick.

A. Going with a non breach witching modular body -quick cheap and easy.

B. Developing a modular body that has the ability to have the feed switched. ie you dont need any breaches and you can switch the feed with out any additional parts. The idea that I came up with is this. The body will have 3 holes milled into it, top, right and left. All of them are threaded, you put the feed tube on one of them and put two plugs on the other two holes. One of the plugs would contain a detent to keep the ball in. Are yall getting what I am saying? This is just my theory, only one way to find out if it works. This will cost more than A, but also be innovative.
-Doron

[manike]

Originally posted by hostage
A. Going with a non breach witching modular body -quick cheap and easy.

B. Developing a modular body that has the ability to have the feed switched. ie you dont need any breaches and you can switch the feed with out any additional parts. The idea that I came up with is this. The body will have 3 holes milled into it, top, right and left. All of them are threaded, you put the feed tube on one of them and put two plugs on the other two holes. One of the plugs would contain a detent to keep the ball in. Are yall getting what I am saying? This is just my theory, only one way to find out if it works. This will cost more than A, but also be innovative.
-Doron

Both sound like interesting products. http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

I know AGDE have been trying the first out also based upon the extreme body, but just haven't had time to make them yet (the mill is working flat out on other stuff).

The second idea would be really new but not easy to achieve. I'd like to see that though.

[hostage]

A. would be cost effective, easy, and we could roll it out in no time. We might come out with a warp body first and see how well that does. If it does okay then we might do a vert run, then possibly a warp left then.

B. On the other hand this gives everyone more flexability, its a cool unique design, though its also untested. It would take time and more money to make. I don't know how good it would look.

-Doron

[luke]

hostage & manike,
It so refreshing to see two adults with opposing points of view, sit down, hash it out, without name calling, hair pulling and eye gouging.

But, the most impressive thing is the fact that one of you ;) saw the error in his thinking and was man enough to reconsider his position. I don't know if there were any legal issues here or not, but at the least we see someone doing the honorable thing, which is a rarity these days.
:cool:

[Skoad]

why does the body have that dumb thing on top? for sights?

[hitech]

I think that if you can do the first one quickly and sell it "cheap" and at a profit, you could use the profits to help finance the developement of the "better" option. Also I think I would make the vertical feed ones first. Higher demand (and I'm a BIG warp fan). :D

[PUDBUDZ]

Who will be doing the milling for you?....I have had a removable breach body desgined 6 months....the problem is i cant find anyone to machine it for a good price....$10,000 tooling and $300 to $700 a piece...

And thats if i wanted 50 to 100 pieces....thans a ton of cash....and how many will sell? Big risk! Unless AGS would want to buy them!

And to all that are going to have something to say about the removable breech...It will not infringe in AGDs design. When i can finally make one you'll see why!

All i have to say is...its light, functional, and has quite a few advantages over AGDs....

Now i just have to have them produced! I have all the drawings done already, 3D and 2D....Pro E, acad, inventor, solid works...you name it!

[manike]

Originally posted by PUDBUDZ
Who will be doing the milling for you?....I have had a removable breach body desgined 6 months....the problem is i cant find anyone to machine it for a good price....$10,000 tooling and $300 to $700 a piece...

And thats if i wanted 50 to 100 pieces....thant a ton of cash....and how many will sell? Big risk!

And to all that are going to have something to say about the removable breech...It will not infringe in AGDs design. When i can finally make one you'll see why!

All i have to say is...its light, functional, and has quite a few advantages over AGDs....

Now i just have to have them produced! I have all the drawings done already, 3D and 2D....Pro E, acad, inventor, solid works...you name it!

Cool stuff. As you can see it's very expensive to break into doing this unless you are hooked up in some way or another. The ancillary costs are prohibitive. :(

I look forward to seeing what you have come up with.

[UThomas]

AGDE does, and Simon can verify/deny this, in fact have a patent pending on the modular portion of the X-Mag's body. So therefore you would be committing infringement by incorporating that into your body without paying licensing.

Patent pending doesn't mean anything. If you don't have a patent then they can make whatever they want, legally, since patents aren't retro active.

[hostage]

luke-No legal issues, just ethics. I want to make people happy for makeing a part, not to step on fingers.

hightech-you may be right, though I think I might put a poll up to see what most people would buy.

UThomas-Licenseing the idea from them would be a good idea, however, it would most likely make the bodies too expensive to gain any profit from.
-Doron

[hostage]

I sent them an email a while back that they never got back to me about and as soon as they heard about this thread they emailed me a "nice" letter. I wonder if I should post it :D

Though I do prefer not being threatend after I agreed not to do by reason of ethics. That just irritates me. I thought it was settled, though seems like its beating the dead horse. I feel disgust with them.


Well basicly what it comes down to (according to AGDE), if I make ANY body that has the ability to switch the feed, they will sue. So I guess there goes those ideas.

"Even a "swivel" design could be a potential infringement."
-Airgun Designs Europe

Well I think it comes down to that I have to invent that will revolutionize the automag, patent it and forbid overseas sales :p

-Doron

[-=Squid=-]

EDIT: NEvermind, I think weve got a MUCH better idea than interchangeable breaches. :D :)

[ubooze]

If AGDE threatens to sue anybody who has a multi-feed system, why is the Exorcist(sp?) neck for the Matrix available? The Matrix is a multi-breech design gun, so are the Nova-based guns(Assualt 80 and Mayhem and etc.)

I don't see why a multi-breech system would be a means to sue anybody. As long as it is a new design, I don't think there should be any problem. But thats just me.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by ubooze
If AGDE threatens to sue anybody who has a multi-feed system, why is the Exorcist(sp?) neck for the Matrix available? The Matrix is a multi-breech design gun, so are the Nova-based guns(Assualt 80 and Mayhem and etc.)

I don't see why a multi-breech system would be a means to sue anybody. As long as it is a new design, I don't think there should be any problem. But thats just me. as much as I am in support of doron's body, it IS (waS) a pretty flagrant rip off. I wouldnt think AGD would threaten to sue though. And you people wonder why smart parts sues, when precious AGD is even quicker to the punch on this? :rolleyes:

[dansim]

yes but sp waited for 7 years till the market was ripe with elctros, do you want agd top wait for you(him) to build teh bodies, wait a few years and sue your balls off ? its better to get it done now before initial investments

[manike]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
And you people wonder why smart parts sues, when precious AGD is even quicker to the punch on this? :rolleyes:

ah but the difference here is that AGDE did design this, and they are protecting their idea with patents etc.

It's also better to try and stop things before they start than to wait for a whole industry to develop around an idea then punch them in the back of the head... :rolleyes: If they were going to act like SP they would have let hostage get ready and tooled up, then just as he started huge production they would have hit him with a cease and desist.

Last I heard their IP was very close to grant so it may have achieved this now. I guess they are learning that when you have IP you need to protect it.

Knowing AGDE as I do I find it hard to believe the e-mail was in quite the tone Hostage makes out, but maybe.

[shartley]

Potential infringements are not “infringements”. But enough of that….

I think AGDE was just trying to protect what they consider as their IP. And anyone who deals with official legal correspondence knows that many times it may come across as brash, rude, or whatever… but it isn’t. It is just to the point and lacks the “nice” things put in general correspondence.

With this said, I have not seen their e-mail…. I am just offering a potential viewpoint.

[luke]

So AGDE has a patent on ANY alternative feed design other than the power feed or previous designs?

I thought you could only patent something "specific". (?)

[manike]

You would need to read their patent to determine what they have. I haven't read the granted document.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by manike


ah but the difference here is that AGDE did design this, and they are protecting their idea with patents etc.

It's also better to try and stop things before they start than to wait for a whole industry to develop around an idea then punch them in the back of the head... :rolleyes: If they were going to act like SP they would have let hostage get ready and tooled up, then just as he started huge production they would have hit him with a cease and desist.

Last I heard their IP was very close to grant so it may have achieved this now. I guess they are learning that when you have IP you need to protect it.

Knowing AGDE as I do I find it hard to believe the e-mail was in quite the tone Hostage makes out, but maybe. There is no difference. Smart Parts has a patent on something they did, and everybody stole there idea. This is no different, however, even AGD stole the idea...turning into SP are we?

[manike]

There are huge differences. You just can't see them. In my opinion nobody has ever stolen an idea from SP. Quite the opposite.

[hostage]

To be honest, I prefer manikes approach over AGDE's. Maybe I just can't stand being threatend. Well we will hopefully have the new design w/ the flashy milling in about a week.
-Doron

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by hostage
To be honest, I prefer manikes approach over AGDE's. Maybe I just can't stand being threatend. Well we will hopefully have the new design w/ the flashy milling in about a week.
-Doron Woo woo! Cant wait.