Homemade Electric Cocker

[-=Squid=-]

Well, I picked up a deal on an upgraded 2k1 cocker and a crossfire fiber tank for 200 bucks! WOW! Anyways, me and a couple of teammates are turning it into a project, we want to electrify it...CHEAP. Our base is this:

Electric Spyder frame - ghetto rig it to trip the sear, some modifications would obviously be necessary

electronic mac valve - Used in place of the standard 4 way. We would wire this to the spyder frame.

Vision eye - if we could get the basic stuff to work properly, we could eventually attempt to rig a vision system on it with a EE-SPY411 eye...granted that would be further down the road

We have a machine shop, so any work could be done there. Anybody see major flaws? Anybody have any information on doing a homemade electro cocker conversion? Hope to hear back from you people, and thanks for any help!

Nick

[xen_100]

I think that hardest thing you are going to come up against is the spyder frame. it will not fit easily and getting it to trip the sear will be tough. they are not even remotely in the same place.

I would suggest using a CF hyperframe (cause the mounting is the same) but then you may as well buy an e-frame for it.

after you spend $100 on the spyder frame and $100 on the mac valve plus all your "ghetto" rigging and your time. you may find it is just easier and cheaper to buy an e-frame designed to work. also, dont forget, you are going to have to add a timing circuit to the spyder frame. the spyder frame will ONLY trip the sear. it iwll not have a delay biult in for open time and closed time for the bolt. a custom cirsuit would work here (or a morlock board) but there again you are looking at $100-150 for that customization.

[-=Squid=-]

Mhmm...timing was a concern from the start... I guess we could just put the 4-way on there, and replace a manual 3-way with an electric mac valve. Machine work wont cost us anything, and I already have a mac valve from an old broken rain maker, as can I get an electric spyder frame for about 20 bucks. I wouldnt bother doing this if I didnt already have most of the stuff to do it with. Timing...well crap, im not sure about that. The reason for this is a project, not because I want an electro cocker.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, why wouldnt the spyder frame work as is? All it NEEDs to do is trip a sear. When you pull a cocker trigger, it just trips the sear and falls back into place while the gun does the rest...I guess I dont understand that part.

[xen_100]

ok, if you already have most ofthe parts, then money is not the issue.

you will have to do some measuring to see of the spyder frame can even mount to the cocker body. if you can find a way to mount it so the sear is in the right place, it might work. you would also have to make sure that the sear was tall enough to catch the hammer, and that the noid has enough power to release it. if all those things are worked out, it will work.

as for the timing issues. that is a quick trip to radio shack for a dual 555 timer(I believe it is 556, plus you will need a few pots a various resistors and crap)) all you need to do to time it is this:

1) pull trigger (releases hammer)
2) wait for hammer to hit valve (if it started to cock immedaiately it wouldn't hit the valve at all)
3) actuate mac valve (to cock gun)
4) de-actuate mac valve (to push bolt forward)

what the exact values are I dont know. but you could tinker with it until you got it right. if you biult the circuit small enough you could fit it in the stock 9V batt location and then power the gun off the revy batts? (or a project box under the grip)

[WARPED1]

Go see Doc's site. He made his personal cocker to an electro with 'noid on the front.

[GT]

squid,
poke around on ebay. There are some folks that sell SMC 'noids all day for pretty cheap.

jb

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Go see Doc's site. He made his personal cocker to an electro with 'noid on the front. I did go there, but the picture didnt tell me much, other than hes got a vision eye, some crazy frame, and a skinner noid mounted on the front. If the spyder frame doesnt work, I can take the intellifeed revvy I have, and the mac valve, and wire that to a battery and microswitch inside the frame, so you manually trip the frame but everything else is electro. 1/2 electro cocker. I have till december, im giving this setup to my dad for christmas.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by gtrsi
squid,
poke around on ebay. There are some folks that sell SMC 'noids all day for pretty cheap.

jb Thanks a lot, my mac noid has a little leak anyways.

[-=Squid=-]

gtrsi - could you give me a link? I cant find any on there.

[Spartan X]

For timing, get a orlock board...BUY then you could afford a hyperframe after the total cost.

[-=Squid=-]

ok guys, say I scratch the spyder frame and just use a mac valve, I would no long need a board correct? Just the mac valve would act as a three way, assuming I wired it to a microswitch or something, and mounted the switch behind the trigger plate, and just put it in the right spot so it didnt get tripped until the right moment? I dont wanna have to screw with timing issues or a board if I can bypass it, even if it is only a half electro.

[xen_100]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
ok guys, say I scratch the spyder frame and just use a mac valve, I would no long need a board correct? Just the mac valve would act as a three way, assuming I wired it to a microswitch or something, and mounted the switch behind the trigger plate, and just put it in the right spot so it didnt get tripped until the right moment? I dont wanna have to screw with timing issues or a board if I can bypass it, even if it is only a half electro.

I am sure you could do that, and it would work.

and I dont want to be rude, but what would be the point??? your limiting factor to ROF on a cocker is the trigger. you have to pull it all the way, release all the way. the stroke is ALOT longer than even super crappy electro frames. so if you are going to use a normal trigger on a cocker and then put a microswitch to actuate an electro 4-way. you will gain nothing over a stock mech 4-way.

infact you will still have to put a timing circuit on the microswitch because you will be able to pull the trigger and let go of it ALOT faster than paint can feed and you will chop alot of paint.

on a totally mech cocker you have a small amount of play (hysteressis) in the 3-way that allows the bolt to be back long enough to feed correctly. on yours you will pull the trigger (then hit the microswitch) is will start to go back (this takes about 5-10 MS to happen) then you will let go of the trigger (instantly releasing the microswitch) and the bolt will go forward. (it is posible the ram wont even get far enough back to cock the gun before you let go) so you will need a delay timed in to allow the gun to cock correctly

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by xen_100


I am sure you could do that, and it would work.

and I dont want to be rude, but what would be the point??? your limiting factor to ROF on a cocker is the trigger. you have to pull it all the way, release all the way. the stroke is ALOT longer than even super crappy electro frames. so if you are going to use a normal trigger on a cocker and then put a microswitch to actuate an electro 4-way. you will gain nothing over a stock mech 4-way.

infact you will still have to put a timing circuit on the microswitch because you will be able to pull the trigger and let go of it ALOT faster than paint can feed and you will chop alot of paint.

on a totally mech cocker you have a small amount of play (hysteressis) in the 3-way that allows the bolt to be back long enough to feed correctly. on yours you will pull the trigger (then hit the microswitch) is will start to go back (this takes about 5-10 MS to happen) then you will let go of the trigger (instantly releasing the microswitch) and the bolt will go forward. (it is posible the ram wont even get far enough back to cock the gun before you let go) so you will need a delay timed in to allow the gun to cock correctly Wait wait wait...first you say it will be ridiculously slow, then you say that it will be so fast paint cant feed? With an electric 4 way, you wont need to worry about short stroking for one. On top of that, you can put stops on the plate, drop the sear etc without need of retiming, or the 4 way not being able to get that short. You only need to pull ALL the way back, and let ALL the way forward because of the 4 way, not the sear. I think this would be a good thing.

EDIT: I reread what you said, and now understand where you are coming from. At this point, what I want to try will be under 15 dollars, so why not try it? I guess I will let everyone know how it goes, but please, dont stop with help and suggestions, its been helping greatly.

[xen_100]

well for $15, go ahead and try it. just be aware, you will run into timing issues. I am not saying they are not fixable. just that you have to consider them and understand how to get around em.

your micro switch idea might work if you put the microswtich in a place so that is gets switched "on" before the end of the backward trigger stroke and stays on for a little while on the forward stroke of the trigger (so it is not just getting turned on, then instantly off like it would if the back of the trigger plate were hitting it....although I am not sure there is room in the trigger frame for this. it would be tricky to get it mounted in just the right spot too.)

I still say you wont get any increase in poerformance doing it this way. but it is always fun to tinker. hell I biult a cocker out of a spyder ;)

[GT]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
gtrsi - could you give me a link? I cant find any on there.

Dam there were a bunch of these a few weeks ago. let me poke around a bit more.... http://search.ebay.com/ws/search/SaleSearch?basicsearch=&ht=1&sosortproperty=1&satitle=Solenoid&from=R10&sacategory=888&catref=C1

[-=Squid=-]

I looked at that, and it gave me another noid model to go after if my mac craps out. Thanks.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by xen_100
well for $15, go ahead and try it. just be aware, you will run into timing issues. I am not saying they are not fixable. just that you have to consider them and understand how to get around em.

your micro switch idea might work if you put the microswtich in a place so that is gets switched "on" before the end of the backward trigger stroke and stays on for a little while on the forward stroke of the trigger (so it is not just getting turned on, then instantly off like it would if the back of the trigger plate were hitting it....although I am not sure there is room in the trigger frame for this. it would be tricky to get it mounted in just the right spot too.)

I still say you wont get any increase in poerformance doing it this way. but it is always fun to tinker. hell I biult a cocker out of a spyder ;) I figgure an on off switch, wires, battery carrier, LED light for coolness, and a microswitch. Gonna stop at radio shack tomorrow. Im gonna put this in a swing trigger, and change the springs so it feels more like an electro, or a bit less like a cocker at least.

[-=Squid=-]

ok, well, I still have the noid, and I put all the hoses on it from the three way, and I kept the noid on my rainmaker. When I pull the RM trigger it cocks itself, and VERY quickly, but not so fast it would chop, so the noid idea worked. Now, I have to ship the RM off, so my problem is this. Do I need a board? Can I just wire the noid straight to a battery and micro switch, or will a board be absolutely necessary?

edit: since this cocker is going to my dad for christmas, im going to not mess with a spyder frame, and will save that for my cocker pgp. The benefits are more than most realize though. I can take the spring out of the hinge frame, and shorten and drop the sear a lot, and I never have to worry about shortstroking. Why dont more people do this?? :confused:

[xen_100]

if you can get it timed, you my not have to. but I think you will run up against timing issues. if the back block is not allow a long enough time to get all the way back (cocking the gun) and then some amount of "open" time to let paint fall in, then close. (then you have to have a minimum closed time, or you will get blowback) if all those things are not considered, it will have problems.

these things are all handled by the 3-way on a totally mechanical cocker. ( the three way has some room for forward and reverse travel before it actuates one way or the other.) a micro switch will not have any of that travel.

I am not sure what you mean by "short and lower the sear alot" if you shorten the cycle of the gun too much it wont even fire. the hammer will get half way to the valve and it will already be cycling back to the cocked position. there is only so much that can be done with the timing and still have it function reliably every time.

[-=Squid=-]

I meant shorten the trigger and drop the sear. With the noid, all I have to worry about as far as function goes is the sear, and no longer a 3 way. Im not sure if the board had anything to do with it, but I had no timing issues either. We will find out tomorrow when I go to radioshack to get the parts I need. Same for walmart, where I will buy some JB weld, a crescent wrench, and terminator 3. I think this will work just fine.

EDIT: if removing the board causes timing problems, I Will just buy a used RM board for 10 bucks :)

[xen_100]

did try it with paint?

If you have the RM baord connected, then that is doing the timing for you. I think you will have problems, but wait and see I guess.

[-=Squid=-]

ok, I hooked everything up to the cocker. Well, it works, but only in open bolt. And after a bit of use, the noid and bat get very hot and stop working properly. Also, after a bit of use, the solenoid wont recock the gun for about 3 seconds. any tips on how to fix those problems? Especially the open bolt thing...

[xen_100]

more than likely the heat is the cause of the recocking issue. are you sure you are using the correct voltage for the noid? some of those operate at 5V. if you are giving 9V (for example) it will get hot.

as for the open bolt thing. can you give a better idea of the operation, step by step? I am not sure what you mean at this point.

[-=Squid=-]

on the noid, it says 3.0 watts and thats all I See about that. Im running a 9vt directly to it. So ya, how would I fix that? And when I say open bolt, I mean the back block is in the open posistion, then when I pull the trigger it closes. And its not the hoses...not real sure how to fix this one...

[xen_100]

you need to measure the noid coil. once you have the coil ohms, you can figure out what voltage you need to give it 3 watts.

P = V * I

are you still using hte RM board?

is this just a direct conection to the noid and the microswitch?

if you pull the trigger, does it cycle? (if it does, then you have the hoses on the noid wrong or the ram wrong. switch one of them and it will reverse the operation to closed bolt at rest.)

[xen_100]

another thing I just thought of. make sure that the noid is not actuated all the time. that will make it (and the battery) warm. it is designed to be pulsed, not on continuously.

also, remember that the operation of a RM and a cocker are NOT the same. A RM is not technically a closed bolt marker. and the RAM rests in the open postion and pulses(cycles) in the closed postion.

[-=Squid=-]

Its a direct connection, no board. I have tried switching hoses but it still operates only in open bolt. How do I know if its on all the time, and how do I make it "pulse" that paragraph seems important, but I dont really understand what you are saying.

[xen_100]

if you switch the hoses on the ram, it has to switch the direction the ram is in. if it doesn't you dont have something hooked up right. (does the ran move at all when you pull the trigger?, it is posible to connect the ram to noid so that both sides of the ram are aired up at the same time, this would prevent it from moving. make sure you dont have an exaust vent clogged on the noid)

an easy way to see if the noid is functioning correctly is to pull all the hoses off of it, except the air "in" hose. (this is the one from your pnuematic reg to the noid) turn the reg down so it just put out enough air to feel coming out of the the other barbs on the noid. then click your microswitch. you should be able to feel the air switch what hole the air is coming out of. if it doesn't, the noid is either not working, or it is hooked up wrong. (hopfully you havn't cooked it) the hole that the air is coming out of in the "rest" position should go to the front of the ram (nearest to the pump rod), and the hole that the air comes out of when you pull the trigger should go to the back of the ram (towards the front of the gun)

the easiest way to tell if the noid is powered all the time is to remove the power. if the noid clicks off and the air switches direction, then you have it wired wrong. (cause the noid should not be on all the time) as for the pulse part. again, you will need to biuld a board to get a true pulse (a nice short and controlable one anyway). but the micro switch is what you are using to get your pulse. it wont be as acurate as electronics, but it will work. you just want to make sure that you are wiring it so that the noid ONLY gets power when you are pushing the button on the microswitch, NOT all the time.

[-=Squid=-]

Thanks for all your help, but I am out of air. It will be saturday before I can work on it again. However, I have my microswitch fixed behind the trigger and all, and when I pull the trigger, it shoots paint and everything...but the bolt is back. I think I have tried switching hoses and it changed nothing, but I might have just taken them off and put them back on the same and not realized it. I will give you an update saturday, and thanks for all your help..

P.S. Good lord this thing is fast!

[WARPED1]

Let's see pics Squid boy!

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Let's see pics Squid boy! Its pretty fugly now...

[Jonno06]

pics woman! :p

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Jonno06
pics woman! :p You asked for it... I will take them when I get a chance. Its pretty ghetto rigged.

[Jonno06]

woohoo!

[-=Squid=-]

lol

[FalconGuy016]

Man I just read this whole thread... that was a long time. Oh well, at least it was interesting