Why did the ROF cap die?

[LudavicoSoldier]

Is it just me, or did everyone who once stood up for a ROF cap (NPPL or otherwise) simply shut up? Am I the only one who thinks that getting nailed with a string of balls at 20bps is no fun at all? I mean, its not even safe! You can get seriously injured! And now theres talk of loaders that will eventually feed ~30bps! Personally, I think this is beyond insane. Why not just dip a bat in paint and go bash people?

I know X-Ball and all the new "concept" fields are virtual shooting ranges, where speed is key. However, I DONT WANT TO GET SHOT AT 20 BPS! Don't call me a pussy either! What ever happened to getting shot ONCE and being out. Now we are getting nailed 5+ times before we can even say anything.

Rediculous! Opinions? Flames? n00bs? TWiBs?

[Muzikman]

I agree, but what are ya going to do? Until the insurance companies step in and set a cap, it will never happen. The industry never will since it's a money maker and marketing tactic for them.

[Skoad]

i seriously doubt the rate of fire will get much higher than it is today, even with new loaders that can feed 1000000 bps...human fingers can only do so much.

So unless someone invents some kinda robot hand that looks like a real hand, the rof won't move around much


one thing that would be nice is somehow make the ability to change debounce settings locked while playing.

[LudavicoSoldier]

It doesnt need to go any higher! It should be lower! 20bps is RETARDED! Who cares how fast you can pull the trigger. People always find ways around that anyhow. Im talking safety here.

[adam shannon]

the human finger cant move that fast...so people (pronounced WAS) are making boards that bend the rules letting all the bling bling little mommas money kids shoot faster because they think thats the way to be beter players because thats all every other spoiled little brat brags about.

as long as bps and the foolish concept of cps is toted as the be all end all of pb, were going to have to endure "my marker can do 50 cps" etc etc etc.

[LudavicoSoldier]

rgr that! Most people I know who play ball cant afford to feed a gun that goes anywere near 20bps! I dont even tear through a case a day, and these kiddies are tearing through 3-5 cases! Thats it! Im going back into the woods where these twitchy fingered n00bs dont dare go with their "bling bling"!

[LudavicoSoldier]

And for the record, I think anything over 15bps should be outlawed. If you cant keep someones head down at that ROF you shouldnt be playing.

[68magOwner]

eh, when you think about it, ROF kind of is capped, i meen, shure some people (including myself) can shoot over 15bps when showing off, but i dont really shoot that fast in a game, im shure some people do, but thats a rarity, its more about people overshooting people than it is the ROF being to high, i meen, i have been hit 5+ times by people shooting less than 15bps more than i have been hit 5+ times by people shooting over 15bps, i think the only way to stop overshooting is to penalize for it, this wolnt solve it in rec ball, but it will help some :rolleyes:

[maglover52]

i like it it makes it more of a challenge because u dont want to get nailed a bunch. but o well i dont mind getting shot 5 times in a game doesnt seem to hurt anymore.just stings for a second then no pain.

[Tyger]

Simple jaded formula.

The companies that make the high RF guns also run the league.

The players in this league are alos the same players that played in it from the inception. They're old.

Since they can't run anymore, they say it's ok to shoot a lot of paint. Since thy run the leagues to, they can make whatever rules they want to.

Either that or they think they're more "xtreme" if they shoot lotsa balls... Either way it's stupid.

-Tyger (Who uses an e-mag as a finesse tool, not a blunt object)

[hitech]

Originally posted by Skoad
I seriously doubt the rate of fire will get much higher than it is today...

And back before electronic triggers I'll bet than no one thought it would get over 15 either. Right now bounce is a big problem. Tournaments are checking for it, but it's easy to get away with in rec ball.

Something needs to be done. I don't know that I have the answer...

[LudavicoSoldier]

True, overshooting has been a problem for awhile, but when coupled with say, a WASd Timmy, its downright dangerous. What is it going to take to get insurance companies (who insure the fields) to see that this is hazardous to peoples safety? Personally, I dont want to see a kid with a foot long lesion from getting caught by a high ROF string from 5 feet away, and im sure mothers/doctors/insurance agents dont want to see it either. This seems to be the path that the industry has chosen...

[coolcatpete]

how ever think of this. When do you shoot the fatest? You try to shoot fast when people are moving, so you will only hit them once or twice at 20bps. I learned this from web dog that 10 bps at 300fps the balls are 30 feet away so i think that would be hard to hit someone like that. The answer to that is a higher cap such as 20.You also shoot fast off the break and that is the same deal. Most of the time unless you are a back man you snap shoot. However when you are a backman you try to get the guys who are snap shooting so you boost your rof up and you still will only hit them once or twice because they are only showing them selves for a mili sec. The only time when shooting fast can get someone injured is when you are bunkering some one and let a whole hopper at them and that is just not fun as you have said and the solution to that is...DONT SHOOT 20BPS WHILE BUNKERING SOMEONE.

[i like tictacs]

Originally posted by spleefstylez
And for the record, I think anything over 15bps should be outlawed. If you cant keep someones head down at that ROF you shouldnt be playing.

and if you think getting shot 5 times is too much, then you shouldn't be playing either...

[i like tictacs]

Originally posted by spleefstylez
True, overshooting has been a problem for awhile, but when coupled with say, a WASd Timmy, its downright dangerous. What is it going to take to get insurance companies (who insure the fields) to see that this is hazardous to peoples safety? Personally, I dont want to see a kid with a foot long lesion from getting caught by a high ROF string from 5 feet away, and im sure mothers/doctors/insurance agents dont want to see it either. This seems to be the path that the industry has chosen...


no more then a month ago i was shot 5 times in a row point blank on my rib cage, and i didn't get any lesion. and its all cleared up now. if you cant take the pain dont play the game. nobody is going to die.

[coolcatpete]

Originally posted by i like tictacs


and if you think getting shot 5 times is too much, then you shouldn't be playing either...

well said

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Originally posted by i like tictacs


and if you think getting shot 5 times is too much, then you shouldn't be playing either...

No. The only people who shouldn't be playing this game are people who can't play fair and safe. If someone thinks getting hit five times is too much, they should be playing with people who think the same. Find people who agree with your philosophy of play (limited ROF, no overshooting) and play with them.

[coolcatpete]

Originally posted by coolcatpete
how ever think of this. When do you shoot the fatest? You try to shoot fast when people are moving, so you will only hit them once or twice at 20bps. I learned this from web dog that 10 bps at 300fps the balls are 30 feet away so i think that would be hard to hit someone like that. The answer to that is a higher cap such as 20.You also shoot fast off the break and that is the same deal. Most of the time unless you are a back man you snap shoot. However when you are a backman you try to get the guys who are snap shooting so you boost your rof up and you still will only hit them once or twice because they are only showing them selves for a mili sec. The only time when shooting fast can get someone injured is when you are bunkering some one and let a whole hopper at them and that is just not fun as you have said and the solution to that is...DONT SHOOT 20BPS WHILE BUNKERING SOMEONE.

read this

[manike]

When oh when will people realise the difference between ROF and number of balls fired? :confused: :(

I can shoot you at 50bps and only have 2 balls leave the gun.

Who says high rof is unsafe? What is unsafe about being hit twice in a short period of time?

Being hit multiple times may be unsafe, but who knows this? I've never seen any tests or investigations into it. And yes high rof do make it easier for someone to over shoot, but that person has to do the overshooting. "Gun's don't kill people, people kill people".

I shoot at very high rof and very rarely hit someone more than twice. Maybe if they keep coming they might get a few more, but often it's only a few hits.

I agree completely with Jeff, play with people of a like mind. The guys that play NXL realise they are all shooting at high rof and take it as part of the game. If you don't want to play the 'unlimited format' then don't.

Watching NXL is nowhere near as interesting with guns shooting 6bps. It's much more spectacular to watch streams of paint fly and impact. High rof make the NXL better to watch.

Ultimately if the amount of paint shot becomes more of a safety risk, I see better protective equipment becoming mandatory. But there has been no evidence of it being unsafe yet that I am aware of.

[hitech]

I is, in my opinion, much more of a problem in rec play than "tournaments". It's the guys setting up their markers that shoot mult. rounds when you bump the marker. "Tournaments" check for these types of problems ahead of time. Rec fields tend to check AFTER a problem is discovered. THAT is where the problem lies in my opinion.

[Drizit]

As a member of a professional ref team, I’m really not big on the super high rate of fire electros, at the IAO I had to through some of them out as the players couldn't get them NOT to bounce. Some of them right out of the box without changing anything were bouncing more then my RT tippmann 98. Now you are going to say "hey you have an RT 98 and an autoresponce mag, who are you to talk about too much fire power?) true I do have them but I only bring out the tippmann for scenario games, where I am never really very close to the other team, second when the mag comes out I use the autoresponse in short controlled bursts, and only for rec games, they are just fun guns, my impulse almost never sees the field except when I lend it to my girlfriend, mostly I use a stock class phantom, a pump mag, or a pair of armotech Zeus G2s, in fact all summer I’ve been playing sup air with the phantom and a 6pack. Whoever tells you that without shooting 15+BPS a back guy can't keep people in has never tried. I've played as a back guy with my phantom and not had to reload the 15rds I started the game with by the time the game is over. Now back to the point I started to make about high speed electros. I think it encourages some amount of laziness in the player, when reffing the back tape you end of flat on your stomach in between the back can and the breakout point now why is it that people would be constantly hitting me there? and not just one or two bouncing off a bunker no, no, no, they will start shooting somewhere down the field and eventually they will walk it to the bunker they want to spray the hell out of. By the time half the day was over during the prelims at the IAO our towels were so covered in crap from cleaning the bunkers that they wouldn’t take any more off. Now why should the center of an air bunker be that bad, when a player only comes out the side of it? answer: players are to lazy to aim anymore because they don't have to, they can just walk the stream where ever they want it to go, and if you happen to run out of your bunker just when they start blasting away because you thought it might be a good idea to move how many hits are you going to take? Or better yet how many times do you as the shooter really need to hit someone? I know the popular thing is to MAKE him call out because it hurts so much, but really... come on... think about the ref you will blast the crap out of in the process when he HAS to jump into the stream so stop you from hitting the guy after you blast the mask off his face, and he drops to the ground screaming like a little girl! or why do you need to keep blasting away like a mad man yelling "GET OFF MY FIELD" when the other player CAN'T leave his bunker to walk off because you are still blasting away at 15 or 20BPS, if you were shooting a reasonable speed he might say to himself hey I’ll wave my arm and walk out and at worst I may get one or two before the guy with the gun realizes what's going on but at 20BPS if you stick you’re arm out to wave and signal you are out it'll just get hit 40 or 50 times, so now a ref has to run in... And stand in the steam to GET the poor sap out, then you start yelling at the ref for getting in your way. now I have no problem with the front guy wanting to shoot at 20bps because that will mean he gets to put 4 balls out when he shows himself instead of 2 but for the back guy it's just over kill come on 15 pods in a 5 min game? Lets get really for a second, I can use less then 15rds in a game at MAX .5BPS (hey it's stock class I could probably pull off 1BPS with a hopper) and still be effective why would you need 15pods at 20bps?

Next rant WHY DO KIDS NEED TO SHOOT 20BPS IN THE WOODS AT RENTERS AND HIT THEM 5 OR 10 TIMES? and that's the renters poking their heads out for a second when it comes to me running like a fool across the open to take an impossible bunker so I have a good spot to use my pump from, I get even more hits, and then when I stop running and put my hands up because I know at least one of the 15 that just hit me had to have broken, I get stitched some more, and they say "sorry but they were already in the air when I saw 5th one hit you" now my first question is "why didn’t you stop until you saw the 5th one hit me?" and second why do you need to have 21 more balls in the air after you see 4 hit someone?"

ok I’m done ranting but I hope in all this I managed to make some point about why your don't NEED to and really shouldn't shoot 20BPS personally I think there should be a cap at about 10 to 13bps for tournament play, and if they set that for tournaments then you won't see that many guns going over that limit, but ZAP, Diablo, and the other paint makers don't want that to happen so... the speed will just keep going up, and as to not being able to hit 20bps in a game? Practice bouncing your intimidator or rolling your matrix and you just watch how fast you can tare someone in half with it.

[hunter100]

Everyone is always so quick to jump on the markers with high rof. Why don't people critize the players who are doing the overshooting? Most people who have high rof markers do not abuse them. I believe it is a very small group of players who are guilty of overshooting and the anger about it should be directed at them, not the markers they are using. Ask yourself this, are you willing to cap every single gun because one or two people at your field overshoot? Why not go up to them after the game and talk with them? Tell them they are being unsafe, angering other players, and simply wasting paint. You could even go as far as getting the refs involved. My point is, there are other solutions to the problem. In the end, you would just be taking away from the game.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I have no problem with guns that can shoot at a rate of 30bps but...

-That doesn't mean you need to bunker a guy and hit him with 20 to act tough or inflict pain. That player should be suspended or kicked out. Tournament or rec. A cluster of 5 in 1/2 a second happens due to adrenaline and such and is part of the game since a couple bounces could happen. But some refs don't do their job and pull players for extreme shooting because it doesn't promote business or in tourneys its a team sponsored by the promoters so they won't be penalized. Enforcing the rules and applying appropriate penalties with no exception is the solution.

-That is at 280-300fps, not 320 or whatever speeds so many people shoot hot at. This is Spyder-packing recballers as much as guys like Chris Lasoya and other tourny player who allegedly had guns that actually shot harder as you shot faster. Thats lame and dangerous. Robbo Robinson did an article on it and chronoing won't catch it as it ramps late. And if a recballer is shooting 320 the refs didn't do their jobs. Enforcing rules and adhering to strict penalties with no exceptions is the solution.

-Finally, it's one shot one pull. Tell me everyone on rec fields and tournies stick to that and I'll call you a liar. Tippman reactives, runaway Mags, WAS-boarded guns, trigger-jobbed guns, etc should not even make it onto the field IF they are set up to break the 1-1 rule and if they do the user should be pulled and heavily penalized (suspension from tourney/field) regardless of who they are. Field owner or a member of the store's team? He's not going anywhere, he's friends with the ref. Dynasty in the Super 7 when they're so close to Chuck Hendsch? The refs wouldn't dare try to get them pulled and suspended for runaway and bounce. It's intentional premeditated cheating, there is no excuse for it and an example must be set.

The tourney-baller image has helped the game "get out of the woods," but it is now one of the heaviest anchors to it, along with companies having too much influence. When was the last time a ref called a ball fair when it was blatantly foul in a baseball game because it was the home team who hit it? This is the next step in pballs growth; flush out some of the onfield immaturity, enforce penalties, and do something about sponsors/players being so much involved in running tourneys. Last time I checked, the president of MLB doesn't own the company sponsoring the event and have an exclusive team in the tournament, and have their friends in the game their staff is reffing. MLB wouldn't allow that at all.

[penguinpunk555]

I dont realy think someone will be able to shoot over 25 bps. I mean a human finger cant move that fast. I am definatley not crying bout this rof anymore.

[Digits]

Originally posted by spleefstylez
Is it just me, or did everyone who once stood up for a ROF cap (NPPL or otherwise) simply shut up? Am I the only one who thinks that getting nailed with a string of balls at 20bps is no fun at all? I mean, its not even safe! You can get seriously injured! And now theres talk of loaders that will eventually feed ~30bps! Personally, I think this is beyond insane. Why not just dip a bat in paint and go bash people?

I know X-Ball and all the new "concept" fields are virtual shooting ranges, where speed is key. However, I DONT WANT TO GET SHOT AT 20 BPS! Don't call me a pussy either! What ever happened to getting shot ONCE and being out. Now we are getting nailed 5+ times before we can even say anything.

Rediculous! Opinions? Flames? n00bs? TWiBs?

Whatch some videos of the pro's playing.. It's pathetic how slow they shoot compared to 90% of the people around from where im from.. I'm not saying you need to shoot faster to be better but it's so wierd watching them shoot 15 bps max when people around here shoot atleast 15 bps.

And physically, there is no possible way anyone could reach 30 bps without bounce or some other crap.. Which would obviously be noticable if you seen a solid stream of paint.. Which would result in the reff checking that gun, and them being pulled.

Also, who cares if you get hit 5 times.. I don't start to worry untill im hit around 7-9 times because you should be able to stop shooting by then. It's also not really a safety hazard.. Whats so much more dangerouse about it.. The only thing I could see is if you get hit on say the adams apple 5+ times.. Then that could be pretty dangerous, but I think you would flinch out of the way or something after being hit there once. No ones died from the game yet, and untill someone does I don't think they will set any caps.

The thing i'm worried about is the wiping/cheating/playing on with an obviouse hit.. It's unbelieveable how much it happens once you get up to the higher devisions.

[magmonkey]

I am a techonlogical nut, I love to see how fast I can shoot, that being said I rarly lay on the trigger on the field , if I am playing back maybe for the break but other than that I pick my shots and most of the time will fire three at a time, no long bursts,however the high ROF is nice when you need it

[Digits]

Originally posted by Drizit
As a member of a professional ref team, I’m really not big on the super high rate of fire electros, at the IAO I had to through some of them out as the players couldn't get them NOT to bounce. Some of them right out of the box without changing anything were bouncing more then my RT tippmann 98. Now you are going to say "hey you have an RT 98 and an autoresponce mag, who are you to talk about too much fire power?) true I do have them but I only bring out the tippmann for scenario games, where I am never really very close to the other team, second when the mag comes out I use the autoresponse in short controlled bursts, and only for rec games, they are just fun guns, my impulse almost never sees the field except when I lend it to my girlfriend, mostly I use a stock class phantom, a pump mag, or a pair of armotech Zeus G2s, in fact all summer I’ve been playing sup air with the phantom and a 6pack. Whoever tells you that without shooting 15+BPS a back guy can't keep people in has never tried. I've played as a back guy with my phantom and not had to reload the 15rds I started the game with by the time the game is over. Now back to the point I started to make about high speed electros. I think it encourages some amount of laziness in the player, when reffing the back tape you end of flat on your stomach in between the back can and the breakout point now why is it that people would be constantly hitting me there? and not just one or two bouncing off a bunker no, no, no, they will start shooting somewhere down the field and eventually they will walk it to the bunker they want to spray the hell out of. By the time half the day was over during the prelims at the IAO our towels were so covered in crap from cleaning the bunkers that they wouldn’t take any more off. Now why should the center of an air bunker be that bad, when a player only comes out the side of it? answer: players are to lazy to aim anymore because they don't have to, they can just walk the stream where ever they want it to go, and if you happen to run out of your bunker just when they start blasting away because you thought it might be a good idea to move how many hits are you going to take? Or better yet how many times do you as the shooter really need to hit someone? I know the popular thing is to MAKE him call out because it hurts so much, but really... come on... think about the ref you will blast the crap out of in the process when he HAS to jump into the stream so stop you from hitting the guy after you blast the mask off his face, and he drops to the ground screaming like a little girl! or why do you need to keep blasting away like a mad man yelling "GET OFF MY FIELD" when the other player CAN'T leave his bunker to walk off because you are still blasting away at 15 or 20BPS, if you were shooting a reasonable speed he might say to himself hey I’ll wave my arm and walk out and at worst I may get one or two before the guy with the gun realizes what's going on but at 20BPS if you stick you’re arm out to wave and signal you are out it'll just get hit 40 or 50 times, so now a ref has to run in... And stand in the steam to GET the poor sap out, then you start yelling at the ref for getting in your way. now I have no problem with the front guy wanting to shoot at 20bps because that will mean he gets to put 4 balls out when he shows himself instead of 2 but for the back guy it's just over kill come on 15 pods in a 5 min game? Lets get really for a second, I can use less then 15rds in a game at MAX .5BPS (hey it's stock class I could probably pull off 1BPS with a hopper) and still be effective why would you need 15pods at 20bps?

Next rant WHY DO KIDS NEED TO SHOOT 20BPS IN THE WOODS AT RENTERS AND HIT THEM 5 OR 10 TIMES? and that's the renters poking their heads out for a second when it comes to me running like a fool across the open to take an impossible bunker so I have a good spot to use my pump from, I get even more hits, and then when I stop running and put my hands up because I know at least one of the 15 that just hit me had to have broken, I get stitched some more, and they say "sorry but they were already in the air when I saw 5th one hit you" now my first question is "why didn’t you stop until you saw the 5th one hit me?" and second why do you need to have 21 more balls in the air after you see 4 hit someone?"

ok I’m done ranting but I hope in all this I managed to make some point about why your don't NEED to and really shouldn't shoot 20BPS personally I think there should be a cap at about 10 to 13bps for tournament play, and if they set that for tournaments then you won't see that many guns going over that limit, but ZAP, Diablo, and the other paint makers don't want that to happen so... the speed will just keep going up, and as to not being able to hit 20bps in a game? Practice bouncing your intimidator or rolling your matrix and you just watch how fast you can tare someone in half with it.

I agree with you on everything except for the fact that you pretty much have to light the 'higher class' players up before they even call out.. It's literally PATHETIC how much these so called 'pros' whipe.. Hell some of them sit with there knees in the air so that if they get hit all they have to do is kneel down. If whiping would stop I believe overshooting would be quick to follow.. But as it looks right now, no one wants to quit wiping.

[tony3]

I don't like one thing, Jim from WAS is sitting on the nppl board for trigger issues or something, yet he owns a company that makes boards that are notorious for bounce. Doesn't that seem strange?

[Tyger]

In football, if you hit a player who is out of bounds, or after the play is over, you are penalised.

In baseball, if you hit a player with a ball, the player gets to take a base and you could be ejected depending on circmstances.

In hockey, you start a fight, you're penalised. Hits happen, but backchecking players without the puck is not.

In all sports, if you threaten to beat up, injure, or physically touch a ref, you're ejected and / or fined.

In paintball, you can walk up to another player, rip the goggles off his head, thrown an uppercut, and literally kick the snot out of him, and it's put up to "Boys will be boys." Behaviour is tolerated, and bad behavior is often REWARDED.

You can intimidate a ref, and get your way. You can threaten a tournament organiser to get your way, and more often than not you'll get your way if you can throw weight behind it. Hell, you can throw a bunker at the head ref, and not only get your way, but you won't get any penalties.

It feeds into the BPS, a lot of players use it to harm other players. Why? It's rewarded. You intimidate your opponents, you can win. And it's all about chalking up "W's", isn't it? Shooting players point blank in the neck is glorified because it's deemed "Macho" or "X-Treme". So you shoot a lot of paint, you must be a bad (Insert colorful adjective here) because you could hurt people with impunity.

Related to this topic, but kinda out of it. But, food for thought.

-Tyger

[coolcatpete]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tyger
[B]In football, if you hit a player who is out of bounds, or after the play is over, you are penalised.

In baseball, if you hit a player with a ball, the player gets to take a base and you could be ejected depending on circmstances.

In hockey, you start a fight, you're penalised. Hits happen, but backchecking players without the puck is not.

In all sports, if you threaten to beat up, injure, or physically touch a ref, you're ejected and / or fined.

In paintball, you can walk up to another player, rip the goggles off his head, thrown an uppercut, and literally kick the snot out of him, and it's put up to "Boys will be boys." Behaviour is tolerated, and bad behavior is often REWARDED.



Not exactly remember it is about the user of these high rof

markers and I have noticed that the people that mostly play

pump ran on about this issue, I got overshot by a stock

class player the other day, this does not mean that his gun

was to fast(it was pump come on) it was that he chose to

shoot a few times after I had my hand up or I yelled I AM

OUT. so dont just go on about the markers it is the user.

Peter

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Tyger, my point exactly, a little extra though:

If you hit blatantly late with intent to injure in football, you are fined and ejected and bonusballing is the rough equivalent of it.

In any sport, if you aggressively shove an official or verbally threaten him and say you are going to hurt him you are ejected suspended and fined.

Moves like grabbing the facemask and clipping the knees out have been made illegal in football for safety reasons and, if done intentionally, result in very costly penalties. The paintball equivalent would be shooting the neck or face point blank with intent to hurt and it does not result in penalties at all.

Behavior like arguing a call excessively on the field in most sports will get you ejected. Not paintball.

Our tournament style paintball format is young, so alot of growth is due, but right now we have some serious changes to make before we attract the same fans that watch other sports. Right now most pball fans are only those who actually play. We need:

1.) To get sponsors/product makers OUT of the decision making, it is way too biased right now and has too much effect on refs, resulting in biased calls and arguments as well as too much leeway including teams using illegal guns because the refs are scared to boot them for it.

2.) Set strict penalties for the most malicious and intentional penalties and ENFORCE them. There are strict penalties that should be happening now but they rarely get enforced, especially against top teams.

3.) Put guys like Lasoya, Willrocks, and the many other "bad boys" in line. They cheat, do stuff like start fights, maliciously overshoot, shoot hot, play on (Lasoya steamroller) and just in general are the scumbags of the game who get away with it because they have a popular image and have all the 12 year-old suburan ghetto-wannabe noobs thinking they're the best and trying to act like them, promoting the cheating playing style. If they step out of line, they need to be penalized like anyone else would to set an example. A football player would be suspended for similar actions, so suspend these guys. It's sick that there are so many dirtbags out there who are some of our sport's icons and we need to keep them in line or boot them if we can't.

[magnj]

This is a good thread. I have been thinking about this a bit latley. And I think that the major series, at least NPPL is moving towards limiting the ROF, of course not nearly fast enough. I worked field crew and watched hundreds of guns get checked for bounce, they were checked wrong. YOu have kids who took a 2 hour class reffing big time teams like dynasty, they are gonna let them do whatever they want.

I would not oppose a limit of 18 or 20BPS or maybe even higher because like Manike said, I rarley see people get hit 20 times at 20bps, I do see people getting hit 3,4,5,6 times at 18,19,20 bps but I have never seen anyone hit for a full second at such a high rof. That is why guns shoot so fast.

[Digits]

Originally posted by Tyger
In football, if you hit a player who is out of bounds, or after the play is over, you are penalised.

In baseball, if you hit a player with a ball, the player gets to take a base and you could be ejected depending on circmstances.

In hockey, you start a fight, you're penalised. Hits happen, but backchecking players without the puck is not.

In all sports, if you threaten to beat up, injure, or physically touch a ref, you're ejected and / or fined.

In paintball, you can walk up to another player, rip the goggles off his head, thrown an uppercut, and literally kick the snot out of him, and it's put up to "Boys will be boys." Behaviour is tolerated, and bad behavior is often REWARDED.

You can intimidate a ref, and get your way. You can threaten a tournament organiser to get your way, and more often than not you'll get your way if you can throw weight behind it. Hell, you can throw a bunker at the head ref, and not only get your way, but you won't get any penalties.

It feeds into the BPS, a lot of players use it to harm other players. Why? It's rewarded. You intimidate your opponents, you can win. And it's all about chalking up "W's", isn't it? Shooting players point blank in the neck is glorified because it's deemed "Macho" or "X-Treme". So you shoot a lot of paint, you must be a bad (Insert colorful adjective here) because you could hurt people with impunity.

Related to this topic, but kinda out of it. But, food for thought.

-Tyger

I've yet to see anyone rip off someone elses mask and start a brawl.. This is a once in a blue moon occurence.. The worst i've seen are players chewing eachother out.. And what the hell are you talking about with the W's crap

[Digits]

but.. I do agree that the arguing with refs thing is crap.. If it was obviously a bad call you can argue it.. But some people argue it when thet KNOW it was a right call, but they just want to play in the game more.. Players should just get pulled or like a 3 game suspension if they argue with refs..

[Furby]

Originally posted by Tyger
In football, if you hit a player who is out of bounds, or after the play is over, you are penalised.

In baseball, if you hit a player with a ball, the player gets to take a base and you could be ejected depending on circmstances.

In hockey, you start a fight, you're penalised. Hits happen, but backchecking players without the puck is not.

In all sports, if you threaten to beat up, injure, or physically touch a ref, you're ejected and / or fined.

In paintball, you can walk up to another player, rip the goggles off his head, thrown an uppercut, and literally kick the snot out of him, and it's put up to "Boys will be boys." Behaviour is tolerated, and bad behavior is often REWARDED.

You can intimidate a ref, and get your way. You can threaten a tournament organiser to get your way, and more often than not you'll get your way if you can throw weight behind it. Hell, you can throw a bunker at the head ref, and not only get your way, but you won't get any penalties.

It feeds into the BPS, a lot of players use it to harm other players. Why? It's rewarded. You intimidate your opponents, you can win. And it's all about chalking up "W's", isn't it? Shooting players point blank in the neck is glorified because it's deemed "Macho" or "X-Treme". So you shoot a lot of paint, you must be a bad (Insert colorful adjective here) because you could hurt people with impunity.

Related to this topic, but kinda out of it. But, food for thought.

-Tyger

Not sure I totally agree with that viewpoint...it may have been true a couple of years ago, but those days are gone now.

I'm basing my opinion on my recent experience at World Cup. Now granted, WC is a major event, so obviously they're going to go out of their way to find the best of the best, ref wise. The bunch I saw reffing this year didn't take and crap and enforced the rules. The DYE field in particular (IIRC) had a bunch of hardcases reffing...they were a crew from OK that does alot of tournement play and reffing, so they know what to look for, and the personalities involved wouldn't be intimidated by some loudmouthed TWiB who thinks he can argue his way to a win. For the most part I was pretty happy with the reffing. Pity this sort of thing can't filter down to the local tournements where alot of this behavior takes root.

As for ROF, it's a matter of discipline. With the refs checking for bounce now, it's getting tougher and tougher to let your gun do all your work for you. I played WC with an LCD Angel with an Eclipse Blade frame and a trigger job to die for...but it wouldn't bounce. I had no desire to get ejected or stopped from playing because the gun wasn't up to snuff. As it was, I was hitting my ROF cap of 16bps anyways. With the right methodology you can lay out the suppressive fire (which is why alot of guys shoot so fast and so much) yet still have the control over the gun. These days the little wannabes with their blinged out Timmahs just don't have the discipline to deal with the firepower they have at their disposal. Start with the players and the equipment won't be such a factor...

However, we live in an imperfect world populated by imperfect players. It's a matter of common sense that you shoot until the player you're shooting either puts an arm up or the ref pulls him. Even in rec ball these days it's common sense to do so, just because there are people out there who think it's FUN to cheat and get away with it. Do I think it's necessary to light up a 12 year old newbie with a rental tippmann? No, but if YOU as a player excercise some common sense and judiciously apply restraint as needed, then you can play fairly and not have to get disrespected by Johnny Bling Bling and his WAS'd out Timmah on the rec/scenario/tourney field. I get respect not because I'm a money player (don't screw with me, but there are LOTS of players out there more competent than I am) but because I give and expect respect out on the field. Even Johnny Bling Bling respects me because he knows I'll respect him until he chooses to cross the line. Play your own game and set an example.

Just my .02, like it or don't.

I'm just a nasty, old, hairy back player with bad knees and a spastic trigger finger(s)...

[Justin Richardson]

like some of u said i thing high bps is used on running opponets, and shooting someone 5 times or more is to ensure they are out, because if your in a tournament, it sucks shooting someone and later getting hit by that player because they all bounced. and when u bunker someone, u accualy start shooting right before u round the corner of the bunker so that u can be sure u clearly shoot that player before he\she shoots u. sometimes that player gets one or two hits, and sometimes they get mor than what they would like, but if that bunker move could break that game wide open, your not going to take any chances.

and if your playing noobs then they should learn to put up with it........just kidding. if your just playing a regular walk on game, then the stakes shouldn't be that high and the expereanced players should be able to tone the agression down a little.

[luke]

Originally posted by manike
When oh when will people realise the difference between ROF and number of balls fired? :confused: :(

I can shoot you at 50bps and only have 2 balls leave the gun.

Who says high rof is unsafe? What is unsafe about being hit twice in a short period of time?

Being hit multiple times may be unsafe, but who knows this? I've never seen any tests or investigations into it. And yes high rof do make it easier for someone to over shoot, but that person has to do the overshooting. "Gun's don't kill people, people kill people".

I shoot at very high rof and very rarely hit someone more than twice. Maybe if they keep coming they might get a few more, but often it's only a few hits.

I agree completely with Jeff, play with people of a like mind. The guys that play NXL realise they are all shooting at high rof and take it as part of the game. If you don't want to play the 'unlimited format' then don't.

Watching NXL is nowhere near as interesting with guns shooting 6bps. It's much more spectacular to watch streams of paint fly and impact. High rof make the NXL better to watch.

Ultimately if the amount of paint shot becomes more of a safety risk, I see better protective equipment becoming mandatory. But there has been no evidence of it being unsafe yet that I am aware of.

Well said and right on the money!!!!!

[sneakyhacker420]

suck it up and take the pain, i get hit multiple times all the time! i don't give a crap, i'm pretty much immune to the stinging... i'll get welts and wonder when i got shot there in the first place


only thing i dont like is shot-on-top-of-shot on my goggles, its a pain in the *** to clean out around the edges and it eventually scratches the lens, but thats about it

its all in fun i guess ;)



and for the bps factor, its always gonna go up, otherwise the market would stop in its tracks right here, and paintball would die off eventually

[Digits]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
suck it up and take the pain, i get hit multiple times all the time! i don't give a crap, i'm pretty much immune to the stinging... i'll get welts and wonder when i got shot there in the first place


only thing i dont like is shot-on-top-of-shot on my goggles, its a pain in the *** to clean out around the edges and it eventually scratches the lens, but thats about it

its all in fun i guess ;)



and for the bps factor, its always gonna go up, otherwise the market would stop in its tracks right here, and paintball would die off eventually

Die off? I doubt it.. BPS is at it's peak.. No one can physically shoot faster than what guns are capable off atm.. Maybe now more companies will work on other aspects such as efficiency and consistancy..

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by spleefstylez
Why did the ROF cap die?

'cause it was a stupid idea?

[AGD]

1. There never was a semi auto cap there was a full auto ban. You see where that went.
2. Most industry people thought the ROF was too high at 8 and said they would get out if it got to 10 or 11. You didn't see anyone leave did you?
3. In 1998 at an industry meeting, everyone was confident that ROF would always be limited to less than 12 because of gravity fed loaders.
4. At that same meeting I got up and told everyone that if they thought 12 was the limit they were dreaming and it would be way higher than that soon. No one took me seriously.
5. Every time this subject comes up people make the point no human fingers can do 20. See #4 above and substitute 20 for the 12.
6. In my professional opinion, the real limit is somewhere between 30 to 40. Most likely around 35, in semi mode, with fingers. If you don't belive it, remember #3 above.
7. Most of you will say you would never play paintball at 30 BPS. Your addicted, its just like heroin, you don't really care if it kills you. See #2 above.

Been around enough to know,

AGD

[Tyger]

Originally posted by AGD
(A lot of good stuff, AND :
7. Most of you will say you would never play paintball at 30 BPS. Your addicted, its just like heroin, you don't really care if it kills you. See #2 above.


((taps inside of his elbow))

I am a social paintball player.
I can quit any time I want.
I only play paintball with friends. On weekends.

Hang on, gotta loosen the belt on my arm here. NYAAHH!! Ok, much better.

You're right tho. We want moe paint, fastr shots, nd tighter strings. Problem is that it's becoming destructive to the players who play. If I want to see bloodshed, I'll rent Rambo, not watch a tournament event. Destructive habits are not what will sell the game, athleticisim and skills ("Show me something I can't do") WILL sell it.

Personally, I wuld like to see no cap on ROF, but a cap on paint. You can have a 50 BPS gun, but you only get 200 balls. Now there you'd have a show of skill. But, until the players realise that TV won't want to watch guys hiding behind bunkers for a whole game, you'll get sling-fests.

**sigh**

Paintball, a wonerful enigma. We embrace technology upgrades but fear change.

Other stuff too :


Originally posted by Digits


I've yet to see anyone rip off someone elses mask and start a brawl.. This is a once in a blue moon occurence.. The worst i've seen are players chewing eachother out.. And what the hell are you talking about with the W's crap

"W's". Wins. I know AGD plays clen, I had the pleasure of plaing against them a few times, good games. But I know too many teams that are willing ot use everything to win. Winning mens sponsors. Sponsors means money. Money means more paintball. Cheating is rewarded,as long as you're winning.

I've had to seperate players going to blows before. NOT fun. And I've seen players throw guns, shove players, shove refs, shoot dead players out of malice, and so on. I know that there are teams that spend DAYS training on how to wipe, how to hide hits, how to cheat. And I've seen the All Americans throw a hissy fit at Skyball, throw a bunker, and get a "Do-over" becasue they didn't like how the game was called on the field. (Can you REALLY get a do-over in ANY other sport?!?!?!?)

Want more? I'll produce video. I'm still waiting on the Vid from '94 Reno featuring a REALLY obvious wipe from someone who still plays in the pro ranks today. When I get it, it's on the 'dog.

Jaded? Moi?

-Tyger

[nerobro]

I've seen this discussion a hundred times. the numbers AGD is tossing around.. are sane. And frightening at the same time.

[cledford]

Originally posted by manike
When oh when will people realise the difference between ROF and number of balls fired? :confused: :(

I can shoot you at 50bps and only have 2 balls leave the gun.

Who says high rof is unsafe? What is unsafe about being hit twice in a short period of time?

Being hit multiple times may be unsafe, but who knows this? I've never seen any tests or investigations into it. And yes high rof do make it easier for someone to over shoot, but that person has to do the overshooting. "Gun's don't kill people, people kill people".

I shoot at very high rof and very rarely hit someone more than twice. Maybe if they keep coming they might get a few more, but often it's only a few hits.

I agree completely with Jeff, play with people of a like mind. The guys that play NXL realise they are all shooting at high rof and take it as part of the game. If you don't want to play the 'unlimited format' then don't.

Watching NXL is nowhere near as interesting with guns shooting 6bps. It's much more spectacular to watch streams of paint fly and impact. High rof make the NXL better to watch.

Ultimately if the amount of paint shot becomes more of a safety risk, I see better protective equipment becoming mandatory. But there has been no evidence of it being unsafe yet that I am aware of.

Well said!

From Manike's point of view this is likely just another American issue. The players can't control themselves and how many times they shoot someone - so someone else should step in and regulate - absolving the player (once again) of any responsibility for his/her actions. It is no secret to the rest of the world knows that we (Americans) cannot accept any responsibility for our actions and must be "parented" to behave correctly. We are the butt of many jokes from across the pond (deservedly so) and I know after spending a lot of time in the UK that they are constantly amazed over there by our lack of self control and our expectation that someone else besides ourselves is responsible for fixing our own problems. They are really shocked by our inability to accept responsibly for our own stupid actions - I can't tell you how many times I've had "the piss taken out of me" for stuff like the old lady who sued McDonalds over the coffee she burned herself with - after putting the cup between her legs while driving!

Manike is right - Over shooting is not a result of bps (lets face it can you really tell the difference on the receiving end of a strings of hits that was 20bps vs. 13?) but of players attitude and lack of respect for others, with a healthy dose of lack of sportsmanship themselves.

-Calvinh

[cgrieves]

In my opinion, in the situation that most often occurs in paintball, i.e. a player walking a trigger at a bunker to keep a key opposition player in, if you end up scoring 10 or more hits to a significant body part then it's either Christmas or the opposition have never played paintball before. The majority of occurances of multiple hits normally happens a few seconds later when the player is walking out, but as already mentioned that's disrespect on the part of the shooting player. The eliminated player can do a lot to prevent this happening however- a hand out of the bunker, choosing an exit route with cover etc etc. The rules concerning overshooting need tightening, but it's always going to be a contraversial issue.

If you are shooting a key running lane at 20bps and a player runs through and is eliminated, they are going to have 1, or again at Christmas time, 2 hits. No problem there. If you are being hit by 20 consecutive balls while breaking out then your breakout strategy needs serious revision.

Bunkering is another contraversial situation where there will always be the potential for conflict. Two balls that hurt will always incence a situation, particularly where the bunkered player is often on the losing side. The humiliation of defeat added to sharp physical pain will always be a volatile mix. Sharp marshalling will help here, and respect between players is key, but at the top level you can expect the opposition to make sure of the elimination. I you can't take that then learn to win or call yourself out. Personally being the last man in and waiting for the inevitable is part of the spice of paintball, and remember the spotlight is on you for heroics-use the opportunity!!

Having been hit multiple times at point blank range while wearing only a thin playing shirt, I cannot see a significant potential for injury providing the markers in question is within the rules. Sure, it hurts. Sure you get welts, but 10, 20 or even 100 welts are not going to put you at significant risk. I guess 20 shots to the goggles could be hazardous given current visor technology, but again, if you get 20 shots to the goggles, something else has already gone seriously wrong.

So I can't see any issue with fast firing markers if the game is being played within the rules, the marshalls are reasonably awake, and the guns are firing under the chronograph limit. Exceptional circumstances will always occur, but personally I'd rather see effort put into stopping cheating and encouraging respect amongst players than in slowing down the tool of the trade.

[LudavicoSoldier]

And so the proverbial "can of worms" is opened.

Glad to see all the responses.

There needs to be more discussion regarding the effects of high rof, overshooting, and the general bad behavior that we have seen coming from teams sponsored by supposed leaders of this industry. There needs to be a governing body, IMHO, that is devoid of companies that sponsor major teams. As mentioned by other board members, there is a potential (at literal) conflict of interest when teams and companies are both setting the rules and playing under them at the same time. I'm not saying that leading companies' opinions are not valid, however, they CAN NOT be the end all and be all of decision making in this sport. There needs to be a third party (read umpires or something like that) that can put up a relatively un-biased opinion, I.E. an opinion that serves the interest of rec ballers as well as tourny ballers.

It also seems that as paintball is becoming more of an "Extreme" sport, bad behavior is now being tolerated, on account of the "X-treme" and "Badass" qualities that surround most if not all Extreme sports. I love seeing paintball get publicity, however, it seems that bad publicity has become good publicity. Bad behavior is celebrated as good behavior. It drives me insane when these kids (and grown men/women mind you) think that this type of behavior is "kewl" or the way to go. Someone needs to assess penalties for this type of behavior, because while it may be making the sport grow now, it will ultimatly damage us all.

A couple more cents for yer piggy bank! :D

[SteelSoul]

Here look at it from a diffrent way....
This last weekend my son played his first turny at our local field. He has been playing for 2 years now and he got a Custom 98 for his b-day last year, this thing only has a new barrel for upgrades no RT or anything.
I watched his team play all the way up to the finals.
Here is the part that was kewl, I didn't see one kid get over painted. Hell my son took out the hole other team and he shot 20 balls, I watched him bunker 2 kids that game. The frist one he shot ONCE and the 2nd one he shot him 2 times, I even saw my son go up the that kid and say he was sorry for shooting him TWICE. I have been playing for 10 years and I still go by the rule 1 hit is enough but I guess I am old school..

So later that day after the turny I was watching some older kids play, like 16 and up. They were yelling, screaming, streams of paint were flying and I didn't see any of them kids have as much fun as my son and his buddies had that morning.

It is all in the way you play the game.
I hope my son keeps playing they way he does now and I feel I have done a good job in telling him there is not any reason to over paint, NONE.

Just the ramblings of a ol fart...

Steel

[LudavicoSoldier]

I also feel the fun factor has been deminished in the last few years. I guess now that paintball is a sport its all about the "W"... Sad.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Tyger
...and get a "Do-over" because they didn't like how the game was called on the field.

I almost had that happen to me. The team we played did not like the out come. Their team captain came back to the staging area and threw his marker. He lobbied the refs to replay the game and they were going to allow it. I started taking off my gear and packing up (it was the last game of the day for us). I let my entire team know that we were NOT going to replay that game. I didn’t care if we had to forfeit, we were not replaying it. I got my way. ;)

Personally I think ROF is less of an issue than markers that are setup to fire with the slightest "impact" to the marker. And those that "bounce" easily. They are hard to control and greatly increase the chance of injury.

Tom has a good point. No one thought it would get to where it is today. Walking the trigger, raking (and roller triggers) hadn't been thought of yet. Who knows what someone else will come up with?

[hitech]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
...ENFORCE them.

I basically agree with everything you said. However, this one is a pet-peeve of mine. The GD rules need to be enforced. I KILLS me to see that we have gone BACKWARD in that area since I was reffing in the late 80s and early 90s. We had better rules and they were better enforced.

[coolcatpete]

I thought that most fields inforce these rules I know mine does and if you bck talk to the ref its a warning, one more and you are out for two games. over shooting is the same way exept you are out for the day no refund so I think more foelds should be like ours.

[GoatBoy]

Hrm we seem to have somewhat digressed from the original topic.

I seem to be the only one in favor of full auto. Game wise, you have to remember that you have to wear that paint walking on to the field, unless they start instituting some on-field vending machine bunker that sells you paint mid-game. Uh oh, did I just give some crappy paintball company an idea for a new product? Or maybe we can just make bunkers out of giant self-serve boxes of paint. I have very little respect for the companies and the players that have willed paintball into what it is today, tell you the truth.

Anyways, high ROF == slower player, and more reloads in the hands of the foolish. And probably reduced accuracy due to paint breakage.

Safety wise, I have been hurt far worse by rental tippmanns and spyders than any high ROF gun. In fact I've been hurt more by the frickin recball surrender rule than any high ROF gun; how ironic is that? Granted, I haven't had the "privilege" of playing with such upstanding players like Lasoya.


I almost never approve of ANY solution that involves attempting to control HUMAN BEHAVIOR by LIMITING TECHNOLOGY. It doesn't work. History seems to have solidly proven that this little philosophy fails, over and over.


The overshooting thing kind of reminds me of speeding. There isn't really any indication (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that speeding causes accidents. It does make them more fatal, I'll give them that. I honestly think that numbnuts that drive excessively slow cause more accidents than those who speed. So you kind of have to separate the two. The insurance companies would be better served by looking into things OTHER than ROF.

In the end, I think that full auto should just be allowed. I think the problems would work themselves out.

[Pacifist_Farmer]

I'm going to agree I think Full auto should be allowed in the upper tourney circuits

The only people who can play those circuits anyways are the people who can afford to throw cases of paint a game, I certianly cant

And it truley is the person not the gun, a high rof gun is a tool and most people just dont know how to use it

[E==Mag MAN]

Most players are not shooting between 15-20 bps. Everyone gets worked up and thinks because they can put a stream out at 13 they must be shooting 17-18 because it looks fast. Just last practice on fool was bragging to be shooting 20-22 bps on average with his impulse and 12V rev. I really dont see a problem with rates of fire in tournaments but sometimes rec games can get a little intense.

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by GoatBoy
...And probably reduced accuracy due to paint breakage.
um... LX? ACE? no breaks here buddy :p

and f/a in tourneys or even in rec ball??, hell no.

the people will just walk down the field like the british spraying their opponents with pod after pod of 20bps full auto... thats what will destroy paintball, no skill involved with f/a

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Cledford, I like your post. You made a very valid point that how society is today in general, if you can get away with it it is considered ok to do which is sick, and a key reason why so many crimes happen. Paintball is a tough game to regulate and because of this "it's ok if you don't get caught" mentality or "the ends justify the means" mentalitity coupled with the regulators' lack of interest in strictly moderating it, it has become a disgustingly corrupt game at the tourney level and I definitely don't consider it an organized sport on par with baseball, football, etc, and this is a key factor in holding it back from being mainstream. It's hurting the game but it's not a ROF issue, it's a player behavior issue. People who haven't seen paintball before see the game as it is now and refuse to try it because of that. Alot of people have no interest in being a spectator for events where little babies are throwing temper tantrums.

Hitech, thank you for agreeing with me. I am so disgusted by the cheating and bias I hear taking place in tourney leagues up here in Boston that I refuse to waste my money to not enjoy playing in them and have to deal with these types of players on and off the field. The AO*MA'ers are great guys, but they are a small portion of the players and alot of the others around here are the same guys I have a problem with and who also represent the stores around here. And guess who sponsors the leagues and runs the events? You got it, the stores, and the friends of the storepeople definitely take advantage of that.

And I do agree with AGD, ten years ago the thought of a 30bps marker was insane and we got there. It can easily happen again. But that's ok, if the 1 shot, 1 pull rule started being enforced and penalties were enforced.

It's great talking about this, but until a change is made where the negative behavior is not tolerated at all and rules are enforced, this sport is going nowhere fast. Huntington Beach? Big deal. It's the same people, more expensive tourney.

[raehl]

A paintball gun is just a tool, and people have to be responsible for how they use their tools. High ROF is a byproduct of RELIABLE OPERATION.

And it's not the players' fault the players don't behave. Well, it kind of is, but the reality of the situation is as Tyger pointed out: It's a sport, and teams will do what increases the chances of winning, and expecting anything else is silly.

It is 100% the fault of the leagues if players are not behaving, because the league is fully capable of making misbehavior NEGATIVELY impact the chances of winning. I know it can be done, because the NCPA has been doing it for four years now. It's not just having honest players, but also delivering on the expectation those honest players have that players who are not honest will be penalized for it.

If honest players feel like other players are benefitting from not being honest, you'll suddenly find yourself with a lot fewer honest players - as they either stop playing, or switch to less honest players.


ROF isn't the issue. 30 BPS has a use when you're shooting off the break or at the 2" square of exposed player 150 feet away from you. ROF won't be limitted by caps on guns, it'll be strategically limitted because if you're shooting 30 BPS, you're reloading every 6 seconds and that's a huge hole for your opponents to be moving.

And, lastly, getting hit 5 or 10 times is annoying, paintful, whatever, but it is *NOT* dangerous, in any athletic sense of "danger". If you want danger, play soccer or basketball or football.


Penalize people for misbehaving. It's much easier than trying to regulate equipment, unless you're willing to make everyone use the same marker.


- Chris

[Tyger]

Originally posted by raehl

Penalize people for misbehaving. It's much easier than trying to regulate equipment, unless you're willing to make everyone use the same marker.

Problem is that, in my expirence, over 10+ years of observation, they won't penalise the PLAYER. In fact, cheating is often REWARDED.

You can regulate equipment easily. "Either conform to my rules, or not play." It just means you need to alter the rulebook. Which doesn't work becasue the players also make the rules, and the players who make the rules often excell at CHEATING at those rules, and we're back to square 1. Cheating is rewarded.

Chris : We reffed that tournament. You know that the players tried to lobby the field owner to change a decision we made on the field. They weren't punished, but they didn't get what they wanted. In other sports, they would have been penalised for arguing with a ref, or trying to manipulate the outcome of a game. It's the culture of the game, if you don't like the rules, intimidate the refs or threaten the organisers to get your way.

You can't change the culture overnight, sure. But I can damn well be disgusted by it.

Dang it, now I'm mad. :(

-Tyger

[Gadget]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
the people will just walk down the field like the british spraying their opponents with pod after pod of 20bps full auto... thats what will destroy paintball, no skill involved with f/a

'like the British'? What is that supposed to mean? :rolleyes:

[LudavicoSoldier]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420

the people will just walk down the field like the british spraying their opponents with pod after pod of 20bps full auto...

Ummm...isnt FA illegal in Britian?

[cledford]

Originally posted by GoatBoy

I seem to be the only one in favor of full auto.
Safety wise, I have been hurt far worse by rental tippmanns and spyders than any high ROF gun.

I almost never approve of ANY solution that involves attempting to control HUMAN BEHAVIOR by LIMITING TECHNOLOGY. It doesn't work. History seems to have solidly proven that this little philosophy fails, over and over.


I agree with the above. I've been against the full-auto ban since the beginning.

My worst hit EVER was from a rental Tippmann on C02 - hit landed right on midsection - caused a bruise (totally black) that ended up as big a small plate.

Can't help you with the speeding thing ;)

-Calvin

[Torbo]

Originally posted by coolcatpete
I got overshot by a stock

class player the other day, this does not mean that his gun

was to fast(it was pump come on) it was that he chose to

shoot a few times after I had my hand up or I yelled I AM

OUT. so dont just go on about the markers it is the user.

Peter


thats right. if youre running through a lane that someone is hitting with 20 bps, most likely you will get hit between 2 and 5 times, depending in how fast you are. It the over shooting thats a problem. When people needlessly shoot more, thats the problem.

[raehl]

You *CAN* regulate the equipment, BUT...

Doing so is not worth it in the vast majority of cases where paintball markers are concerned because it's just way too complex of a process for the rules to be effectively enforced. Even if we had a good set of equipment rules for paintball, I doubt I could enforce them without a multimeter given markers of the day.

Unless we made everyone play stock. :)

And yeah, I remember that tournament.

Field Owner: "Chris, this guy says you called him for playing on and he wasn't."

Chris: "He had a hit on his glove between two fingers. He knew it was there, even if he doesn't like that I know he knew it was there."

What I don't get is most 13 year olds seem capable of standing up to a group of PO'd parents when reffing, say, a soccer match, yet for some reason most paintball refs are not.

- Chris

[titan aresta]

I find it funny that people are against F/A because it takes less skill. Yup, because playing on a perfectly flat, symmetrical field, where you know where all your opponents are, and you have a side-line coach takes so much skill to begin with...
There’s no such thing as a professional paintball player, just an experienced one.

[raehl]

Except that the concern with people being able to shoot fast without any skill has nothing to do with the markers being used in a paintball game.


That said, it's obvious that you've never played X Ball, or if you did that you got hosed. You may not like that style of game, but you'll still lose if you don't know how to play. There's nothing wrong with a field being flat and symetrical; and "You always know where your opponents are" is just a convenient lie on your part. And coaching is DEFINITELY a skill - but you've probably either never seen or played X Ball, or at best just never seen good coaching (some of the NXL teams even lack it.)

- Chris

[DeeEight]

Stop the whining about getting hit with 20 balls and consider its a fact of life for the sport and if all the other people doing tournies now can take it, so can you. It'd have to be silly short range for all 20 balls to actually land on a person anyways. The guns aren't THAT accurate ya know !

Also do consider the fact that the companies selling the paint for the tournies make more money selling to people who dump 20bps than those doing 5bps. That's where the real money is for event organizers... the paint sales. When every player is likely to go through at least a case of paint each, in a day's competition (and with a lot of trigger happy players, a half case per game), that's a LOT of cash flow coming in during the event.

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by raehl
What I don't get is most 13 year olds seem capable of standing up to a group of PO'd parents when reffing, say, a soccer match, yet for some reason most paintball refs are not.

- Chris

13 year olds generally don't ref soccer matches.

[shartley]

I skimmed through this thread.. so I didn’t read every word. But I agree with those that say the BPS rate is not the biggest problem out there.. it is accountability for each players actions… low BPS or high.

And I would like to point out that yes, the “pros” shoot markers that are capable of higher BPS, but that does NOT mean they are shooting that fast in a GAME. I watched Aftershock and some other team on OLN last month, and I can tell you that I have seen far faster shooting on the REC Field than what I saw in that game. If anyone thinks in a game situation that even the Pros shoot their max BPS in a sustained manner, they are crazy.

I did not say this to either flame, nor to insight flames. It is just an HONEST observation. It is like owning a car that can do 250 MPH, and on an open road (with no real curves) you can DRIVE it that fast. But take that same car, put it on a winding country road, with other traffic, and see how fast you are actually driving. Same with a game situation….. high ROF’s come from ideal situations where all you are trying to do IS shoot fast. Toss in the other stuff that make up a game and those same ROF’s are not seen.

I am sure some will want to argue this, but I will not… I saw the footage. No my eyes and ears are not calibrated to determine exact ROF’s but I can tell the difference between 10-15 BPS and 20BPS.


Just have fun!!!!!! 10-15BPS in a GAME situation is still DAMN FAST. And you can be overshot with 5 BPS or 15.

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
suck it up and take the pain, i get hit multiple times all the time!

If you can't take the pain, where some hard shell armor/chain mail. At least the paint will break easier and your opponents (and refs) will enjoy not having to argue the point that they hit you.

Most tournies don't allow armor that reduces breakage (as in padded clothing) but armors that actually increases breakage (and also reduces your pain/injuries) are perfectly fine.

[sbpyro]

My problem is not with the rate of fire but with the attitude a lot of players have now. I have gotten surrenders playing with a pgp this includes players with Timmy, trix and angels. The skill part of my game is movement not the shooting. The constant cheating, overshooting, and general poor sportsmanship in rec fields are at a level that should not be tolerated. I played last weekend in a scenario game and I was out of air but still directing fire. Someone had a line on my bunker and opened fire on it. I got nailed about 2 dozen times (none broke). Now I didn't call myself out and he continued shooting that is the nature of the game. I was finally able to get out of the bunker and moved to another one to draw fire as a decoy and I had one shot catch me on the shoulder and I called myself out. The kid who had stitched me up and down came over to see if he had nailed me. I had 1 break on me and that was it, he was amazed that nothing else broke. I showed him that he had hit me (welts on the arm and ribs area) but the paint just bounced. This was not a case of overshooting, just the nature of the game. Then I've played games where people wipe, bunker ppl with 20 or so shots, blindfire and general bad sportsmanship.
A couple of years ago I thought the sport would really hit it big, the reason I was playing against some kids that were probably about 12 years old that could move and shoot with the best of them. Now I see a lot less ablitiy that is compensated by bad sportsmanship (not high ROF).
The fix here is not limiting rate of fire but toughen up the rules against bad sportsmanship. I would love to see someone pulled for unsportsmanlike conduct on a field.

[titan aresta]

Originally posted by raehl

That said, it's obvious that you've never played X Ball, or if you did that you got hosed. You may not like that style of game, but you'll still lose if you don't know how to play. There's nothing wrong with a field being flat and symetrical; and "You always know where your opponents are" is just a convenient lie on your part. And coaching is DEFINITELY a skill - but you've probably either never seen or played X Ball, or at best just never seen good coaching (some of the NXL teams even lack it.)

- Chris

well, all i was saying is that given the curent push to make the game easier for the player, there is no reason why F/A would be not allowed "because it takes less skill".
Ofcourse it takes skill to play Xball, ofcourse there is a skill in good coaching, and if there is one thing that i'm sure of is that there is a whole ship load of people who can play paintball better than me.
Personaly i find it a lot harder to play woods ball than baloon ball.
If you put two equal in skill teams on an xball feild, one team with F/A and one without, do you honestly think that there really will be that much of a difference?
I don't know about you, but for me it really doesn't take that much skill to shoot an Angel at 13bps.

all that being said, i don't think that has too much to do with what this topic is about.
personaly I'm all for a limit on how much paint a player can take with them, but I just don't see that happening as long as paint companies are the main sponsors for major events.

[Torbo]

f/a has nothing to do with skill. The problem with f/a is that if the safety is off/innefective, and the trigger gets bumped or the marker gets dropped, its gonna keep fireing till it is let go of. That is simply dangerous.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Ineffective and unenforced rules are definatly more to blame for where paintball is now then increased ROF. The thread has taken a turn, but I like where its going. :D Keep it up.

[titan aresta]

that's why there should only be mechanical F/As with trigger guards and good barrel condoms.

[Dye Angel Guy]

Honestly though guy/gals a good player can kick some.... with a spyder so bps does not really matter in that sense. I do believe however that yes the 13bps rule showed more skill than pure firepower. Yeah I shoot a speed and yes it can shoot 31bps but do I ever shoot that fast, NO. I think like you guys do; If I am out there playing with a bunch of newbies there is no way I am going to just unload on them. After something like that I would think a newbie would just be like "this sucks" and quit playing. When playing tournments I am going to shoot like 18-20 bps just so I can keep up with the guys that think 20bps is needed to keep someone down. I had a friend of mine an engineer do some calulations and we concluded that no one can run through a string of 13bps so why do you need to shoot any faster if 13bps is all that is needed? Everything is pure image, if some one can shoot faster than you it makes them better right?

[GoatBoy]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420

um... LX? ACE? no breaks here buddy :p

and f/a in tourneys or even in rec ball??, hell no.

the people will just walk down the field like the british spraying their opponents with pod after pod of 20bps full auto... thats what will destroy paintball, no skill involved with f/a

I KNEW someone was going to mention the antichops.

Antichop mechanisms need to be properly tuned to work. Who's post-tournament report was it that mentioned something about "paint dripping from barrels"? Was it Muzikman's? And this came from a tournament? Anyways, guns have to be properly maintained to have this feature work. This includes the ACE and L10. And that's just the breech systems, without getting into malfunctioning HOPPERS. Given what I (and others) have seen on the field with malfunctioning "high performance" guns, it's safe to say that full auto's going to lead to breakage. Lots of breakage. And either lots of missing, or lots of time squeegying. Hrm, is that an actual verb?

You're somewhat correct about the skill factor, but in your own argument, you mentioned "pod after pod". Again, these pods don't magically appear out of nowhere. You got the walking part right. Most players can't seem to run properly with even a reasonable amount of paint strapped on them. Imagine these same players carrying enough paint to sustain their full auto habit.



Originally posted by DeeEight

Stop the whining about getting hit with 20 balls and consider its a fact of life for the sport and if all the other people doing tournies now can take it, so can you. It'd have to be silly short range for all 20 balls to actually land on a person anyways. The guns aren't THAT accurate ya know !


There are understood risks involved in any activity, even WALKING. When you walk onto the field, you expect that there is some chance that you'll get shot, or trip on something, or run into something, or any plethora of on-field hijinx.

But there are reasonable limits to everything. And I think this is the crux of the problem, as some have mentioned before. People have no $%Q@$# sensibility. The whole "tough guy" attitude is really irritating, if not conducive to stupid behavior. This is part of the reason why I support full-auto and believe that the problem will work itself out. Because some of you "tough guys" evidently only learn things the hard way. And if you don't learn, your exit from the sport will most likely be expedited.

There is damn near no reason why someone should be hit 20 times by the same person. The only reason I can accept getting hit 20 times is if I run into like 5 guys and they all pull 4 shots a piece or something.

And guns ARE that accurate. The skill of aiming seems to have been lost in the "accuracy by volume" age, but if you actually try aiming, you'll see that paintball guns are more than accurate enough for practical paintball ranges. Unless your gun is malfunctioning. Although "gun malfunction" is usually analogous to "user error"; blaming it on the gun just helps save face.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Deeeight, if you and most tourny players are happy playing with cheating being acceptable and excessive overshooting being fine, that is your decision but considering that behaviour is outlined in the rules as cheating and should result in 1-for-1 2-for-1 and even 3-for-1 penalties, you need to just full-out pull the rules against it to at least make the calls consistent and eliminate some of the childish bickering you see in tournies, it makes the game look bad when that stuff is happening every game.

If AGD, WGP, and some of the other owners got together, maybe with collegiate leagues, to establish a new tournament series that is geared more towards fair play where strong rules enforcement (even through video replay) is used so that all the "badboys" will stay out of it and instead play in the NPPL and PSP, it could usher in a whole new generation of tournament players and probably motivate the migration of some of the more legit teams that either don't cheat or are bending some rules just so they have a chance. It will be a welcome idea but would take a little time to gain exposure and I think a hockey/xball style scoring in 5-man format would be more effective for monitoring penalties. For example, you wipe, you get pulled and sit the whole next point and the team plays one short. Two members of each team can be off the field, videotaping, and if they get solid proof the other team cheated they can show the refs and get a penalty assessed that affects the next game or games. It would not require insane monitoring and does not force the refs to make calls on hearsay.

Just my thoughts, but people are beginning to leave the game because they're sick of it getting so childish and violent. That is not good if we want it to grow.

[LudavicoSoldier]

And whats worse, quite a few refs around here (not naming fields or names) are the worst offenders when it comes to bad behavior when they are playing.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I can think of two leagues up here, and at least one is so biased to the organizers' friends and teams and such a ripoff that I refuse to play in it. It is run by a store whose refs have openly admitted to me how much they cheat (and they play for the store's team), how they act on and off the field, and it's disgusting. I will not name the store as alot of it I have not witnessed with my own eyes, but I hear the same for the other major store here and both overcharge bigtime. Both are run by people who just want to get as much of your money as they can, they don't care about anyone besides themselves and their teams and will do whatever it takes on and off the field to get their way whether it's right or wrong. We need a new store and field around here, but if one tried, I wouldn't be surprised if these two did everything they could to push the new one right out of business using their influence on the paintball scene and whatever ethical or unethical methods they can think of.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Yeah, those two stores you speak of (if im right) are the epitome of the "tough guy" paintballer. I actually walked into one of the places this weekend and asked if they carried mags (or mag parts) anymore, and the kid working the counter laughed at me. I guess if its not the newest electro, these fools dont want to hear about it. I remember when paintball was CIVIL and it was a rarity to have a player or ref behave poorly. Now that apparently times have changed, we have to be picky about who we play with and when/where we play.

BTW, where do you AO-MA guys usually play? I tend to frequent Global or Camp Paintball.

[raehl]

Originally posted by DeeEight


13 year olds generally don't ref soccer matches.

They absolutely most certainly do. Most soccer matches of the 5->10 year old variety are reffed by 13->16 year olds, at least where I'm from.

- Chris

[raehl]

Originally posted by DeeEight
Most tournies don't allow armor that reduces breakage (as in padded clothing) but armors that actually increases breakage (and also reduces your pain/injuries) are perfectly fine.

Read tournament rules. Rules say nothing about armor that increases breakage being ok - they say you're allowed two layers of clothing, and nothing of a padded nature.

- Chris

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

The armor thing was moronic anyways, it was Deeeight's way of saying we can't stand being bunkered. I can deal with being bunkered, and would do it myself, but there is something seriously wrong if it takes 12 balls to get the job done or going up behind someone and intentionally putting it an inch from the bare skin of the neck, shooting a couple rounds into it, and saying "sucka" cause you think you're so cool that you inflicted such pain on a guy getting him out when you could have more easily popped him in the back, he would have felt it. That is the equivalent of an unneccessary roughness call in football and should be penalized just the same. A football player just recently got in trouble for choking a player intentionally when he was down. The same should apply in paintball.

And to respond to some of Dee's other remarks:

So you think short range it's LESS likely more will actually hit? Try again. It would be more likely and at faster speeds at the time of impact. Long range it would be less likely.

Paintball guns aren't that accurate? From 10-20 ft away if you are unable to hit 90-95% of the time on a target the size of a human, you need to learn how to aim, and in a bunker move you're closer than that.

And again, the issue is really no longer ROF, it has evolved to how it should be safely and properly regulated on the field. Fields have no problem with kids bunkering with 20 balls a time if it's more money in their pocket. Doesn't make it right.

[hardr0ck68]

whoo i dident read many of these....but i have the answer

ROF caps died because

My Penis is bigger than yours

or so i like to think when fan/walk/jerk off my trigger in the chrono area.

As for the cap, its BS to say "oh the game is more fun without it" oh no its not, its more expensive, more abusive, more hostile...but fun? oh i think not

if you cant hit it with 12 BSP (if you can reach 12) then you CANT HIT IT time to move your lazy arse.

yeah lets put any bunch of idiots on the feild with markers that shoot themselves and watch proability, isnt that exciting? No one can make a move, because any open space is filled with a rope of paint, and any dam 8 year old can bounce his trigger at 18 bps (like its impossiable, or even hard to change debounce settings in the start box :rolleyes: ) yeah thats a sport for TV :rolleyes:

[hardr0ck68]

i just read ADG's post, and i agree with what he said, and believe it will be what our sport comes to. On the same note im bummed out, because right now i have an electro trigger set up feather light and way short, is it safe? no i set the dam thing off all the time. But i do it to keep up....

but the argument that ADG made about being addicted goes for cheating as well, its the reality of the pro leagues, the reality of tourny winnning teams, and another skill you learn if thats who/where you wanna be. I have cheated before, i cant anymore because my team is aginst it (if my team doesnt then i wont...i dont want to compermise their morals, mine are my decision) and i have done it because i KNOW its happening aginst me.

cheating wont stop
ROF wont stop
and the "sport" (like herion) will never again give you that feeling you had when you first tried it.....

[Crazy]

quit being a baby or go home...

[Beemer]

Originally posted by hardr0ck68
I have cheated before, i cant anymore because my team is aginst it (if my team doesnt then i wont...i dont want to compermise their morals, mine are my decision) and i have done it because i KNOW its happening aginst me.



Thats fuzzy logic.......We knew we were getting cheated against all the time. That didnt make it right for us to do it. Sure we lost a lot but we won to, but we still had our Pride intact. We pissed off a lot of teams thought they would walk over us till they saw a wall of paint comming at em. When they figured out they wouldnt beat us by cheating and had to play we eather beat em or the clock ran out.


Did we beat the cheaters? yes. Did we lose more then win?yes
But we sure had fun messing em up. Knocked a few of the pros out of the semis and finals


The guns and game have changed from 15 yrs ago but the players havent.Whos fault is that. Still got the same problems we had then. No sportsmanship no class no integrity no pride,bla bla bla

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Cryer, not sure who your remark was directed at, so I will simply comment that my idea of a baby is someone who can't follow rules and feels he's better than everyone else, throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way, gets insulted at the littlest thing (someone fairly bunkering him), can't behave themselves and gets into fights, and has to rip into everybody to seem like a big man. That right there defines the average tourney player.

[Crazy]

how about this... don't cry when you get bonus balled, because most of them are for a reason.