What does a $400 to $450 TAC-One mean to you

[Lohman446]

Ok... I had to bring this out of the pricing thread as it seems everyone expects the courtesy of having their post read without bothering to read the posts before them - sorry rant.

What it means to me: Next season my backup marker will STRONGLY resemble my primary marker (I'm thinking a blue ULE rather than black on this one) - so yes, smart move on AGDs part, I think they will catch some of the market that may have been looking around.

It means that I will not try out an AKA Viking next year, I am more comfortable without electronics, software, upgrades. I do realize some of the potential advantages they offer, however I also understand nearly every advantage comes with a disadvantage. My comfort in not worrying about the marker will allow me to play better.

It means that all three mags currently in my closet are about to take a nosedive in resale value. The comment was made by TK in another thread, eventually markers will come down so far in price you will just keep them. Im now at that point with both my minimag and classic mag.

It also means I will run identical set-ups. When I change nitro tanks and drops this spring I will have to buy two. Identical setups will allow me to switch out guns without any "awkward" feeling should the need arise.

Just curious of that kind of bargain changes anyone elses plans.

[dansim]

it means im gonna pass cause well it looks like a mag and i dont need to drop 400 on another mag (i got an uber warp ule) if it had a ris rail extending under the rail and perhaps out under the barrel for under mounted accesories then perhaps but till then ill just build an a5 scenario marker

[BarryTolar]

Curious why you call it a bargin ?

Also I can't see it taking the market away from A5's but then again what do I know

Ahh yeah what you asked - It means I won't be picking one up and really REALLY trying to unload my current Mag quick now

Barry

[Torbo]

well to me it means....ment.... that i dont have a mag anymore. But its the same across the board. Cockers are dirt cheap too. I was gonna sell my STO, but it really isnt worth it. So ive pimped it out, and once i get some other random stuff out of the way(another mask, some more barrels, etc..) its back to saving....this time probably for an Emag or Vike

[Meph]

What does it mean to me? Depends on which me you ask. The player side or the Dealer side of this topic.

[Cilio - Knightmare Tango]

Depends on if it comes with an I-Frame or not. If it ends up selling with one for $400 I'll purchase it. I already own two Micro's, a Classic, a Mini and a ULE I built. In those I have three classic Valves, one X-Valve and one gun that I rotate a valve into. The Classic, which I customized with rails for night play, would become by night backup and this would become my primary night gun. If it's any more than $400 I'll just purchase the body because I really don't need another gun. $400 is probably my threshold for wasting more money :D

[Sparq]

To me, it means I may actually see a few mags at the field besides my own and a few other regulars. It also means I'll have a great reason to resist the temptation of replacing my mag with an electro as the resale price falls.

[RusskiX]

Remember, the point of the whole exercise is to appeal to current NON-mag owners. To some degree, the AO faithful are gonna get screwed with resale. Thats the price you pay to garner back some of the prestige that was once associated with AGD.

Personally, I'll probably pick one up and jump on the X-valve, level 10 bandwagon since I'm not a current mag owner. And that IS the point, isn't it. :D

[Steelrat]

It means that mag resale values are going to go in the toilet. It also means AGD may have to drop its costs on seperate parts.

[Bad_Dog]

To me, it means that my friends will stop bugging me about the way the classic mag looks stock (plain)... BTW its one hella cool looking marker!

[AGD]

Interesting thread.

AGD

[Smokee_2_7]

To me (as a dealer), it means that i will be able to sell MANY more airgun markers. Up to this point, the price was significantly higher than that of the competition for roughly the same performance. Now, the Tac-one is competitivly priced, as well as offers superb performance. That's simply a deal you can't go wrong with- - and I will DEFINITLY tell my customers the same.


Personally, it means that i WILL pick up one of these bad boys to though into my collection.

As far as the resale value goes. . its life. Ive been dealing with poor resale value on markers for years. Guns that I put over $1000 into are now selling for 400 dollars. That has been happening for years. Yes, loosing re-sale market sucks, but it is simply part of life. However, From a business perspective, it does suggest that you will see an increase in sales of new markers. . fewer people will buy used because they can get a better deal on a new one.

In my opinion, this is probably the best decision that AGD has ever made.


Carl

[AGD]

We are thinking about ways to deal with the fact there is no dealer price. One idea is to sell it without a warrantee and let the dealers upcharge for that.

AGD

[Steelrat]

I dunno about that idea. The average paintball player I see probably isnt too worried about a warranty. They will generally buy it wherever it is cheapest.

I'd like to point out that I am considering getting one as a backup. Its a fantastic price for all you get. Did AGD ever consider doing a type-3 anno on it? That anno is exceedingly hard, and would add to the military feel of the marker. I realize that it is a more expensive anno.

[Meph]

Originally posted by Smokee_2_7
To me (as a dealer), it means that i will be able to sell MANY more airgun markers.

Not according to how I'm seeing this through the shop's eyes. Sounds more like AGD is again underselling their dealers.

Plus I'm seeing this as now customers not even buying the current mags I have in stock unless I'm selling at cost. Once they see said price of Tac-One and what it consists of. [/i]"Oh a 68classic for THAT much? But I can get a Tac-One with goodies and blah blah blah"[/i]


Simply put I'm less than thrilled at the decision. But hey I don't run the company so I have no say.

[shartley]

I don’t know about the “no warrantee” thing. Sorry, but I would not buy anything for $400 that didn’t have some sort pf warranty, and I don’t think anyone in their right mind will either.

I understand everyone’s issues with this push, and how it affects all other Mags on the market, but did AGD say they were going to KEEP the prices that low indefinitely? ;) I would suggest only keeping prices that low for a short period of time… and boldly stating so. This will make the deal look even BETTER for the average consumer.

“Wow, I am getting this fantastic marker and setup for just over what this other marker costs? And normally I would have to pay hundreds more for it? WOW!”

Then when enough have made it onto the fields, the price can be brought back up to levels that are more comfortable for both AGD and Dealers. This is a quite common thing in business, and it tends to work very well if done right.

On another note though, I have heard time and again that Mags just cost too much across the board. And this has been a deciding factor for many buyers. It is also what has IMHO kept Mags from being as mainstream as some of us would like them to be. I don’t want to hear any “but you pay for quality” arguments please. I know this. It still does not override the sticker shock many players get, and the fact that they can buy cheaper markers that more than “do the job” for them.

I know someone will want to toss at me that the other markers ARE “cheaper”, but touting quality and boasting about excellence does not do much if the marker stays on the Dealer wall while the other markers are moving. I am not saying Mags do not sell, but from what I see on the field, and while in pro shops and dealers shops, they are being overlooked the majority of the time. I have never even seen a Mag even ask to be looked at while at a shop, but the others get pawed over continuously.

So, my thought would be that either the entire Mag pricing could be lowered (highly unlikely), or like I said, keep the Tac-One prices low for only a short amount of time, and then bring them back online with current Mag prices. The fact that more Mags will be used on the fields should bring more attention to the entire Mag family. And with this, it will help dealers move more product simply because the interest in AGD products would have been sparked.

Then AGD could sell the Tac-One to dealers at the same price they first sold them “factory direct” at. It is a win-win situation for all. People just have to look at the larger plan and further down the road than the initial release of the product. I know I would not mind a reduction of sales of one line of my products, for a short period of time, if it meant that after that, I would see an increase in that line of products’ overall sales. I think it is a trade off… and one that AGD is banking on.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by AGD
We are thinking about ways to deal with the fact there is no dealer price. One idea is to sell it without a warrantee and let the dealers upcharge for that.

AGD


Possible in theory, the problem is, following through with a no warranty issue would be something you would have to do (been in that situation). From what I have seen of AGD's customer service I can't imagine a customer sending one in that had a defect issue and AGD not repairing it at no charge - regardless of that stated warranty.

[dansim]

but you see not everyon elikes teh tacone body, so some may still be inclined to go ule, but if your doing the CO2 option make the hpa pin like 90$ to cover the costs and keep it competitive with current ule stuff i would really love to get my hands on just the tac1 body to throw in with my anno order coming up...hint hint;)

[bryceeden]

I agree with Cilio - Knightmare Tango that if it has the X-valve, ULT, and I-frame I plan to pick one up for myself, and probably one for my store. I figure if I get one for the store and sell it at cost with no markup people will see it, and though they can't afford it directly they will pick up Classics and Minimags to upgrade into it. Then after it sells people will see the preformance and buy mags because they want the fire power. So in my mind the dealer issue isn't a big deal because the low price CAN help us too. Just my thought on the matter.

[Severe]

Shartley, while I understand your pricing concept of a lower opening price, I think this would be an inherently bad idea. Mainly because issues with AGD meeting production demands. I don't think, "..taking the scenario world by storm..." includes a 6 or more month wait to get this marker (or any other).

As for the resale value, I don't think AGD should concern themselves with such things necessarily. I mean, these are markers they have already made money on if you look at it strictly from a business view point. However, I certainly see the dealer issue. While I understand the Tac-One is targeted towards an informed scenario market, to truely take anything by storm you have to be available at the local store level. And that's going to come down to just how inexpensive the production process is and how little margin the local dealers (and AGD) are willing to accept. I honestly think if dealers only marked up $25-40 over the web price (if such a thing is even feasible) that it would not discourage the in-shop spontanious buyer. Also, most shops already have a "we service what we sell" policy.

The warranty issue bothers me. I originally purchased AGD partially because of their factory warranty. I do not thing the factory warranty should be modified at all. It's been the foundation of much admiration of AGD. Besides, consider again you're targeting Tippmann's cusotmer base and Tippmann has a phenomial customer service/warranty program.

Under selling current stock at any reseller is going to be an issue. Since I'm not knowledgable about how much vendors pay for their mags and such I won't touch this.

What it means to me? It means I will, fairly soon I hope, own my third AGD based marker, fourth overall. I sold my Micromag because of tolerance issues I had with it, my first was a Spyder Compact 2000.

My only question with this whole thought process is, why has this concept not been done with the current line of ULE bodies?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Severe
Shartley, while I understand your pricing concept of a lower opening price, I think this would be an inherently bad idea. Mainly because issues with AGD meeting production demands. I don't think, "..taking the scenario world by storm..." includes a 6 or more month wait to get this marker (or any other).
You lost me with this. I agree that having any wait at all would kind of negate any “storm” that AGD would be trying to create. But that being said, that issue really has nothing to do with the price of the marker. According to what Tom has posted, it looked like they were ramping up for a mass availability of this marker… unlike what happened with the X-Mag.

Could AGD verify this? And if it is not the case…. There really is no storm, no matter how hard AGD tries, and no matter how low the price per marker is.


Originally posted by Severe
As for the resale value, I don't think AGD should concern themselves with such things necessarily. I mean, these are markers they have already made money on if you look at it strictly from a business view point. However, I certainly see the dealer issue. While I understand the Tac-One is targeted towards an informed scenario market, to truely take anything by storm you have to be available at the local store level. And that's going to come down to just how inexpensive the production process is and how little margin the local dealers (and AGD) are willing to accept. I honestly think if dealers only marked up $25-40 over the web price (if such a thing is even feasible) that it would not discourage the in-shop spontanious buyer. Also, most shops already have a "we service what we sell" policy.
I agree with this to a point. It is best to allow dealers to carry the marker in their shops even if at a slightly higher price than online at the AGD Shop. However, if I was a store owner, I would probably not even bother buying them depending on how small the profit margin is compared to my output for stocking them.

What I would do though, is put up a Factory Direct poster and if the customer wants to buy one, call up AGD directly and process the order FOR the customer on the spot, and have AGD ship it directly to them. Then each store owner could get credit for the sale and possibly get a discount on orders of other AGD products they stock? And each store could buy only ONE demo model (that they could sell for standard prices once the prices go back up) so the customers can put their hands on it. Just an idea…. Maybe it could be tweaked?

Also, AGD would have to send a rep to as many scenario games as they can, or have the owners/coordinators of the events put up posters and such featuring the new marker.

The biggest problem with taking anything by storm is two fold….. having enough product to actually meet demand, and having enough people KNOW about it to be worthwhile. And both of these things cost money, and take coordination. Having either of these things fall short tends to ruin the whole “storm”… no matter how good the prices are.

[Pstan]

It means I'll finally buy a MAG because there will be one that isnt priced ridiculously too high. AGD will finally get my money......and that's something they've never been able to do up to this point.

[Smokee_2_7]

Hmmm. I missed the point about undercutting dealers earlier on. That is definitly not a good thing.

Howver, I am not looking for a huge profit margin on this marker anyway. In fact, I generally don't look for much in the way of profit in ANY marker I sell. The internet has already taken care of that.

As far as this tac-one goes, nixing the warranty is an interesting idea to get dealers back in the loop, but i do not believe this to be the best idea. In essence, you are taking one of the GOOD things that people have always said about AGD, and screwing with it. Not necessairly a good idea.

My suggestion is to come up with a dealer price, however small the margin of profit is. Lets make it a profit by volume thing.


Carl

[dansim]

it wont have ult and i belive hes removing the hpa part for co2 on the xvalve, i say throw a classic valve in there

[Severe]

I think we need to get this "Classic valve" concept out of our head. Just because it's a classic valve does not mean it's cheaper to produce! You're confusing performance and pricing. Ironically, the X-valve is going to win both.

Because it's aluminum, the X-valve is inherently cheaper, probably MUCH cheaper, to produce than the classic. That is, I believe the whole motivation behind Tom's indication that AGD wants to move to a single valve product line.

No matter what, when AGD moves to this single valve product line there is going to be a back lash on the current Classic valve owners. Oh well, it's a natural progression and at the root of it, those Classic valve owners bought their markers knowing full well what its' capabilities were..and with the current upgrades from AGD those have been exceeded. No one should grip about this move and just accept that this as a great time to aquire a new AGD marker with the X-valve.

Build the Tac-One with the X-vavle, include the C02 compatible part and advertise the fact that with the change of one small part current C02 users will get a tremendous upgrade when they get the opportunity to move to HPA. That alone will be an incentive for new buyers!

[dansim]

yes but i belive there are already valves made he stated he is trying to clear some stock not make more, how many classics are currently made and sittign in teh factory?

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by RogueFactor


Let's compare:

MiniMag:
Stock Trigger Frame
Classic Valve
SS Body
Store Prices: $325-$375

Tac-One:
Intelliframe or Y-Grip
XValve
Aluminum Body
ULT
Factory-Direct Price: $450

If a marker(Automag, Minimag) on your wall that didnt sell before is put up against an upgraded marker(Tac-One) with ALL the upgrades that can ONLY be bought factory-direct and is a mere $125 more...

you will NEVER sell the marker on the wall or any upgrades.(In store XValve is $300 alone, I-Frame is $110, ULT is $45).

Cutting the dealers out of the loop is a step in the wrong direction.

While it makes scense that people would spend the extra money on the Tac-0ne instead of upgrading that isn't how things work in reality. People can buy a Nightkast "cocker for $950 or they can buy an Outkast for $550 and a worrblade for $450, common scense says get the nightkast, but I have more people who buy the outkast and the worrblade at the same time than I have buy the nightkast. People don't always see what is the best deal, they see what they can afford now.

[AGD]

We can't get dealers to handle our product unless the customer comes in and specifically asks for it. We can't sell a competitively priced product until the volume goes up. So you have a chicken and egg situation here.

Our strategy is to price this thing to get the volume going, then we can get better pricing and offer a dealer price. Unless you have some other ideas this is the only option we see for promoting volume.

AGD

[Odder]

It has been over 10 years since the classic Mag came out, and AGD still makes and sells them, that has always been rather puzzling to me. why not phasing them out?

With this new Tac One coming out, since it will be price attractively, isn't it a good oppertunity to phase out the some of the other models?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Odder
It has been over 10 years since the classic Mag came out, and AGD still makes and sells them, that has always been rather puzzling to me. why not phasing them out?

With this new Tac One coming out, since it will be price attractively, isn't it a good oppertunity to phase out the some of the other models?
Co2

The newer valves can not run on Co2. Classics CAN. And a good many people find it easier to get Co2 fills than HPA. Co2 setups also tend to cost less to get set up than a good quality HPA setup.

I am not arguing which is better... just trying to answer why I think AGD still offers the classic mag. While other companies can sell markers that run on BOTH Co2 and HPA, the Retrovalve and X-Valves are HPA dependant. If they drop the classic valve all together, they will in essence be dropping part of their customer base.

By keeping the classic valve but offering it with the newer body styles for the Mag line you get the best of both worlds. And an individual could buy (let’s say) a Chord Body mag with a classic valve and slap on an expansion chamber or anti-siphon and 20 oz Co2 tank and run out and play…. And for what cost? VS if they had to buy the newer valve demanding HPA only, and have to get an HPA tank… And for what cost?

If they are offered the choice, they can always UPGRADE to the newer valve later in time when they want to… but their initial output to get a mag in their hands and on the field would be easier on their wallet.

But this is all just off the top of my head…. I don’t make the decisions, nor am privy to why the decisions currently made are being made.

[dansim]

co2

toms stated all he has to do is a pin swap and teh xvalve will be co2 capable(may not be retro but you get the idea)

[Cilio - Knightmare Tango]

I totally agree with Odder, I was surprised the old Mags stayed around for as long as they did. It's time is past. It's not that it's not a good gun, it's just been improved. Is AGD supposed to wait until every old Mag has been sold off the shelves before they move into the future?

Pretty much the entire Mag is in it's Valve, it's wonderful, effective simplicity. No electronics, very few parts(Except in the Valve) and I would think, should be able to undercut in price much of the Market whose guns are more complex and seemingly harder to manufacture.

The fact is, I don't really need another paint gun, I have no problem with just buying the Tac-One body. I also am not the slightest bit mad that the value of my other Micro's and Mags will drop because of this. Buy a video camera this year and see what it's worth two years from now when new technolgy comes out that's much better and even cheaper then what the original camera cost. My current computer is god knows how many times better than the one I purchased two computers back and cost less than 1/3 of what it did.
What was state of the art then is common place and cheaper to make now.

[Big_M]

Well, I'll tell you what it means to me, it means that, I finally can afford a decent mag!!!!!!!!! looks like I konw where all my X-mas money is going :D

[Koosh]

They said it... its Co2 compatibility...

Here on the internet its easy to say "Oh well, HPA is everwhere now, people need to move into the future"...

Northern Colorado is stuck in the past. 2 places fill HPA within 40 miles of me. I like paintball and all, but I'm not driving an hour just to fill a tank, when I can get my Co2 filled in 10 minutes. That and the cost of tanks is kinda prohibitive, being a poor college student and all. I know I can get a 47/3k tank for 50 bucks, but then I'd be driving an hour to fill a tank which I can only get 500 shots on.

I also seem to remember AGD saying something along the lines of they sell 10 classic valves for every Retro. These are where the local shops come in. Not every person who plays paintball found out about it on the internet. I've played with guys who ask where I got all this fancy stuff, when I say the internet the give me a blank look. THE MAJORITY paintballers use low end blowbacks on CO2. Without them, this sport would shrivel and die. AGD would be making a mistake by turning their backs on that market, and they know it.

As for AGD's marketing plan, I don't really know. I'm going to school to be a scientist, not an economist or businessman. I'll leave the speculation to people that know what they are talking about.

[cockermongol]

I think this means that not only will you be getting more new mags (tac one's) into the average paintball player's hands, but the fact that the resale value on mags will drop will also attract people to buying a used one.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

A Tac One for $450 means I just might buy another marker. I'm pretty happy with my Classic, but that is a very good deal.

I agree that it is probably time to discontinue the Classic and Mini lines. I imagine that has already been decided, and they are just using up the last of the old-style valves and bodies. Same as how the RT-Pro has evolved recently to an I-frame and ULE body as the old stock ran out of each part. The new CO2-compatible X-valve will mean that AGD will still be able to offer markers for those who haven't yet adopted HPA.


TOM - Please don't sell the Tac One with no warranty. The way you stand behind your products has always been a strong part of the AGD reputation. As a new product, this one has few new working parts (save the CO2 pin), and you shouldn't expect significant warranty compliance costs, I would think. Save money by offering stock trigger frames instead.

[Hasty8]

It means that I will be selling my Armotech WP-75, my teo M98 Customs and my A-5.

I'll be keeping the Emag and the Orracle.

[Garrum]

A $400-450 Tac One would mean that I might-MIGHT - gamble on a Mag. I have stayed with my Tippann's (a Model 98 and an A5) for this long because they were they closest thing to the kind of paintball gun that I want, ie; more militaristic, and they are as reliable as a paintball gun can be. Then along comes this 'Tac One'. "Hmmm. Picatinny rails? At the right angles to use with a dot sight? I don't like that too-close-to-the-rear fore grip, but it says it comes off. I could see a custom RIS type barrel shroud mounted on that upper front rail, and I could hang a fore grip off of that in the proper place. I can either use a stock grip frame, or Dremel off the lower half of that double trigger if necessary. Hmmmmm....maybe....just maybe." My mind was clicking, but to buy one would be a gamble.

Now, you may be wondering why I say 'gamble' on a Mag. Well, my friend bought a used Mini Mag a little over a year ago, and it has given him so much trouble that *I* am frustrated with it. Chop's paint almost before you start shooting, will sometimes just quit for no apparent reason, and has had some major trouble with bolt stick. After a little while of this crap, and fighting off our urges to take it out in his backyard and see what our Glock's will do to it, we decided that it was a fluke piece of worn out junk. So...

He bought another Mini Mag, this one in much better shape. But it still was a near nightmare. The paint chops went down, but there were still a distressing number of them. And he is no master trigger walker either. I'm talking 9-10 bps max with a Halo B pushing them. Occasionally it springs a phantom leak around the valve for a few seconds, apparently to remind us that it is still here. And all through this, my cheap, dirty, blowback semi Tippmanns just keep on keepin' on.

Now, admittedly, I am basing my observations on two used guns, but the second Mini Mag was in good shape. Better shape than my 98 was in when I bought it used. But regardless, I am wary of Mags because I have seen what they can be like if the moons aren't in alignment.

Now, he has bought another Mag. This time, an X-Mag. He is either risking being a major glutton for punishment, or out to prove that the third time really is the charm. I, in one of those rare instances where one person truly can learn from another's potential mistakes, will watch and see if a gun that costs over $1200 can dispell the bad things I have seen about Mags. As in, will it run for more than an hour without something exploding/chopping/leaking/or falling off. Mostly, I'll be watching to see if the Lvl 10 bolt really does eliminate chops, as that was the biggest problem he had with the others. I'll also be watching to see how much time he has to spend to keep it running. If it does ok, then I would feel much more inclined to lay out my $400-450 for the Tac One. And $400 is a good bit of money in my neck of the woods, especially for a paintball gun.

[dmocratic]

Okay, here's my Tac-One decision criteria:

price $450, because I have that in the fun-money bucket.

Must have a factory warranty, because I don't want any
hassles in the future, and because a company should
ALWAYS stand behind it's products.

Must run off CO2, because I have a lot of CO2 bottles,
and only 4 HPA tanks, which are already dedicated to
four of the 'mags we already own; I don't want to buy
another HPA tank, and a CO2 bottle can be lighter
than equivalent shot-capacity HPA tanks as well.

Must be able to buy it from my local dealer, because
he gives a lifetime-labor warranty with every marker
he sells (even used ones), and is a stand-up guy.
All 5 of our 'mags, we bought from him. We trust him.
There is nothing AGD sells that I need so badly
that I would bypass me dealer to get it. Which means
if my dealer can't get it, and make some money on it
(so he is around next year too),
I won't buy it.

Do I care that the resale value of the 5 'mags I own
now will go down ? No, depreciation is a cost of playing.

But I like my local dealer, and I need my dealer.
So don't screw him if you want (more of :-) my money.