The Tac-One and dealers

[Lohman446]

Ok... this seems to be its own hot topic in other topics, we have all acknowledged something about the $400 to $450 price idea of the Tac-One. I doubt this hurts AGD, I expect that to be roughly the price that AGD sells other high end mechanical markers to dealers - I have no idea.

Now I need to further state this - I am not a dealer, I do not have a large (or any) amount of money tied up into an inventory. I can discuss this on theory alone, and don't have to back it up.

I think we must also accept as a fact that the value of at very least the mechanical line of AGD markers is going to drop - I beleive this may also influence the E-mag and X-mag.

Ideas I have seen:
Make the pin necessary to go from CO2 to HPA expensive and include only the CO2 pin in the TAC-ONE. I do not think this will work as it will aleinate a lot of the market - but it had some promise. Further I would hate to break that pin in my current X-valve and have to pay $100 or something for it.

No warranty from the factory bought ones - let dealers tack on warranties. I do not like this. First I beleive AGD would fix many defects at no charge because TK would never allow a known defect to go without repair. Second dealers may be hesitant to take the risk of a warranty.

My idea - and dealers are not going to like this one.
Offer a buy-back period for all AGD markers to dealers to buy them at cost. At this point sell all markers from AGD factory direct with the same warranty now. Advantages: AGD still makes the same profit, lowers cost to consumer. More mags out there - dealers may be able to sell more repair kits for when they are needed. More mags would mean more dealers stocking mag parts.
Disadvantage: No way to go hold a mag at a dealer, buy on impulse, etc. I don't think this will hurt that bad - Mags are out there, and almost everyone who has an interest in one has had a chance to shoot one - I had a chance to shoot a Viking and an 03 shocker without ever looking in a dealers store.

Now I realize I have opened up something that many people will feel very strongly about, but I beleive it is something that will have to be resolved by AGD (though I beleive they may already have a plan). I just want to hear what others think.

[Lohman446]

Before I upset anyone too much, understand that a dealer does more than just mark up a product. They offer advise to many people, expertise that people value and gladly pay for. If they are not able to compete in the mag market they may not recommend mags as it hurts them when they don't sell it directly. Factually high end markers now are as much about personal preference as anything else, and a dealer could honestly decide not to recommend a product they cannot sell competetively. However - dealers buying them at normal consumer, could likely still mark them up $50 or so, and people would buy them on impulse to avoid the wait. I also realize this would be about 10% (a touch more) profit, and that 10% profit is generally poor in business.

[bryceeden]

Yes, a 10% markup is usually bad, but us paintball dealers usually don't make much at all on markers(mostly thanks to actionvillage.com) a $50 markup is better than most markers I have right now(anyone remember the $5.25 mark up on the Tippmann 98 custom befor the MAP came into affect) The thing is alot of people won't pay for the service of a dealer, they want it as low as the net, even if the difference is only five to ten dollars. I would have no problem at all selling the Tac-One at even a $30 profit. Now before all the dealers out there argue with me please keep in mind out here in Utah most everyone use to buy from the net until us local stores started matching the prices they saw there. My profit is on paint and air, not on markers.

[Lohman446]

Most brick and mortar (non-internet based) businesses (with normal cash flow, overhead considerations) need to make at least an average of 30% to 35% to pay expenses and make a reasonable profit. There are exceptions of course, but this is the normal number if I recall correctly. I once worked in management at a store where NOTHING went through through the store that did not have at least a 20% mark up and that was how it was.

[Meph]

Maybe for you bryceeden, but with the markup we have we offer a warranty above and beyond the manufacturer. If people buy from us, we take care of them.

However, they buy off the net.... they're out of luck as far as a warranty. We're charging for every repair they want done down to the last O-ring.

We support those who support us. If somebody wanted to save 10 bucks then so be it. I'm not going to force somebody into purchasing something, and I don't shove gimmicks/hype down their throat to change their idea of what they want so I can sell current inventory. If I had 15 mags on the wall and they have their heart set on an autococker, then I'd be getting them a cocker. I'd be sure to offer suggestions and my input and experience. But if they don't want it then so be it.


What do I think about the Tac-One being factory direct. Well won't be the first time AGD is underselling me apparently. Now I'm not so sure if I'm shocked at the announcement. From a store's standpoint I flat out think is sucks balls. One step in the wrong direction.

I'm not talking about mag re-sale value. Who cares, welcome to paintball. Resale in this sucks, always has and always will. (Hell I'm probably going to sell my 'cocker soon just so I can save some face from it) I'm talking about brand new products that now I might have trouble unloading after they say, "But I can get the Tac-One factory direct with all these and those goodies, how can you charge that much for this?"

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Meph
) I'm talking about brand new products that now I might have trouble unloading after they say, "But I can get the Tac-One factory direct with all these and those goodies, how can you charge that much for this?"

Meph I need to agree with everything you said, and bring this part out of it. How do you think AGD should deal with this - offer an at cost buyback of your current inventory (bought from them)? I have no clue on AGDs financial standing and if they can do this or not. I think your right, a lot of dealers are going to get hurt, its not just the resale value that is about to topple - its the new sale value as well. Can't get $550 for the RTP if the Tac-One sells at $450 (I think). Ideas?

[Meph]

No, AGD is a business not a repo-house. They shouldn't need to buy back inventory that's not their job. Because they shouldn't be doing stuff that would make me need to have inventory bought back. They make good products, no disputing that. I just think the marketing/feedback aspect is ignored or shoved aside more than it should be. And I'm talking well beyond the box color!

I dunno. I'm not going to say **** about this for a while. Just going to sit back and watch what happens. I've been up since 5am and I gotta get some sleep.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Meph
No, AGD is a business not a repo-house. They shouldn't need to buy back inventory that's not their job. Because they shouldn't be doing stuff that would make me need to have inventory bought back. They make good products, no disputing that. I just think the marketing/feedback aspect is ignored or shoved aside more than it should be. And I'm talking well beyond the box color!

I'm not a dealer, I like this thing selling for that low ball figure. That being said I can appreciate your problem. Those of us who are going to loose resale value on what is, in essence, a toy can get over it pretty easy. Those of you who have to deal with an inventory are... well in a a different situation.


Originally posted by Meph

I dunno. I'm not going to say **** about this for a while. Just going to sit back and watch what happens. I've been up since 5am and I gotta get some sleep.
Proof yet again that many people on AO are much smarter than I am, you know when its best to sit back and think rather than talk... of course that makes debates a little boring.

[Smokee_2_7]

bryceeden, same way in alabama, my friend. I hear ya, and agree with you on the markup. Gun sales DO NOT pay the bills


Meph, Im with you too. We offer complete labor warranties on every marker we sell. However, many people still choose to buy off the net, simply because its 15 bucks cheaper. We charge them for all repair work. We do our best to take care of those that take care of us as well.

I do not like the fact that the dealers may be cut out of the loop completely. I also think that, while there is alot i could say, its best at this point to hang back for a little bit and see how this goes.


Carl

[Tunaman]

Originally posted by Lohman446
Before I upset anyone too much, understand that a dealer does more than just mark up a product. They offer advise to many people, expertise that people value and gladly pay for. If they are not able to compete in the mag market they may not recommend mags as it hurts them when they don't sell it directly. Factually high end markers now are as much about personal preference as anything else, and a dealer could honestly decide not to recommend a product they cannot sell competetively. However - dealers buying them at normal consumer, could likely still mark them up $50 or so, and people would buy them on impulse to avoid the wait. I also realize this would be about 10% (a touch more) profit, and that 10% profit is generally poor in business. Correct...almost. A 10% profit + shipping costs from the factory=-5%. You see how many I am gonna order right?:p

[AGD]

First of all how many dealers do you think we have? How many stock our guns? Not as many as you think. Most of our stuff sells through online places like PBgear and 888.

If you go look on the store our intelliframe sells for less than our MSRP on that product. That was a test to see how many dealers it would aggrivate. In almost a year only one dealer mentioned it.

How come no one abandoned Angels when they overnight dropped their price to 850? I remember PBgear selling off stock at super discounts from what they paid.

Once we get volume up then we can put in a dealer margin.

AGD

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by RogueFactor
To give you an idea of how messed up the wholesale structure of the paintball industry is...

Costco/Sam's Club typiclly work on a 20-30% profit margin. They can only go this low due to sales volume.

then again our paint margins easily hit 100% in some areas and air profits...lets not even go there (I can get over 1000% profit on a tank of co2)

[Lohman446]

I posted this elsewhere, it really belongs here - the comment was made that dealers are needed... my reply was

Why?

My question - now first, flesh and blood dealers offer something that is well worht the markup they take on the sale. They offer expertise, warranty without sending in for minor repairs (o-rings type things), and immediate availability - as well as many other things.

However, the dealer system is based on an outdated system where such things as the internet, chat forum advice, and second day shipping were not available. Why do online dealers undercut brick and mortar dealers? Because it does not take as much work to sell on line as it does in person, not as much space, not as many employees, and not as much overhead.

I am not questioning any of the dealers abilities, nor their right to make a living selling markers. However, the thread I started devoted to dealers on this seems to indicate that selling a marker is not an overly profitable aspect of the business.

All I am leaning towards, is if AGD is going to sell one, why not all directly at the reduced prices? Prices are going to have to come down on the mechanical mags to compete with low end electros - because not everyone is willing to pay for the quality.

Now I need to add this - people are not going to wait two days to buy groceries, gas, things that they live on everyday. However, this is a paintball marker, a good share are sold on line anyways and people have to wait. If AGDs major dealers are online sources, why not cut them out of the loop, make about the same profit margin, and sell more due to the reduced price. AGD has the technical ability to set up an online ordering system - there use of bandwidth will of go up... Now the other comment I heard was what about those without the internet, or a credit card. Dealers have the chance to be in the loop again... for those very few sales. MOre and more people have a credit card (with bank check cards) and more and more people have the internet. I beleive that online direct factory marketing is a key in furture sales.

Please note what may be a flaw in my reasoning. I am assuming that a lowered price WILL sell more markers - this is not proven (as logical as it sounds it does not always work that way). We are all assuming that.

BTW - dealers, most of you make a profit margin that cannot justify the sale of markers (or so it seems from what your stating). How much would this actually hurt you?

[shartley]

Most other issues have been commented on, but I would like to make a small comment on this…


I'm not talking about mag re-sale value. Who cares, welcome to paintball. Resale in this sucks, always has and always will. (Hell I'm probably going to sell my 'cocker soon just so I can save some face from it) I'm talking about brand new products that now I might have trouble unloading after they say, "But I can get the Tac-One factory direct with all these and those goodies, how can you charge that much for this?"
That is the nature of the beast with any type of product sales where it is possible to get the same product at lower prices someplace else. This is not limited to Manufacturers selling at lower prices, but to ALL products.

How many times has a brick and mortar store been faced with a customer who points out that they can buy the same product much cheaper online? And how about even here on these forums when several online shops are pointed out selling the same product at different prices?

Do the businesses/stores that can’t sell them at the lowest prices available go out of business? Do they fail to sell products at all because it is possible to get it someplace else for a lower price?

My point is that this is not really much of an issue when looking at the big picture. As Tom pointed out, he already sold a product at below MSRP and it didn’t bring down his dealers business. The world went on. And products got sold.

Call me crazy, but I have often purchased a product in a brick and mortar store simply because it was there and I could see it in real life as well as talk to someone about it… even though I knew I could get it cheaper online. I have also purchased products because I had intended on getting something else (not the same type of product, but in the same store), but the instant availability of the product made it a “must get”. This is pretty much how real world sales go. And my actions are not unique or odd… they are a factor that brick and mortar stores count on, and often use to their advantage.

So, what I always say when someone brings up the “I can get it someplace else for less” argument, I tell them that they are welcome to do so. I am never snooty about it, nor rude either. This is a fact of business and sales, chances are someone can sell the same product cheaper than you can for any number of reasons, be it another store, or the manufacturer themselves. But business goes on and sales still get made… if you run a good business.

Also, if I was given a choice between the RTP and the Tac-One, I would probably still buy the RTP…. Unless I wanted a scenario specific marker. The body style of the Tac-One does not appeal to me, and I am sure it will not to others as well, UNLESS you/they plan on slapping a bunch of stuff on it.. as it was intended to be used. How an item looks is a selling point unto itself, and not to be discounted. I know many people who buy one product over another simply because they like the way it looks.

This does not mean that a lot of folks will pass on the Tac-One because they don’t like the way it looks, but some will. And if they still want an mechanical Mag, they still have the RTP to fall back on. I would simply tell folks that the RTP is not OVERPRICED, but the Tac-One is UNDERPRICED. ;)

Also I may have missed it, but has Tom stated if this lower price was going to be fixed, or a temporary thing just to get the market flowing? This too would make a huge difference in the big picture.

Personally though, I would love to see the price of RTPs drop as well. ;)

[cledford]

Originally posted by shartley


Also, if I was given a choice between the RTP and the Tac-One, I would probably still buy the RTP…. Unless I wanted a scenario specific marker. The body style of the Tac-One does not appeal to me, and I am sure it will not to others as well, UNLESS you/they plan on slapping a bunch of stuff on it.. as it was intended to be used. How an item looks is a selling point unto itself, and not to be discounted. I know many people who buy one product over another simply because they like the way it looks.



This brings up a great point. The Tac1 is going to be heavier then the RTP due to the body. Add some more weight - mill less out of the Intelli (preserve the reason to purchase an Intelli - not get one for "free"), make a solid foregrip - raise the weight a couple ounces anywhere you can. Tthose scenario guys aren't going to care as long as it looks cool -heck they strap about 10 pounds extra on the markers anyhow - then shave everything off of the RTP. This will make the 2 lines more distinct and provide benefit for the additional cost for the RTP. Want a kick butt scenario gun? Buy a Tac1. Want a kick butt speedball gun that doesn't require batteries? Buy an RTP. Want a mid range Electro? Buy an Emag. Want a high end Electro? Buy a Xmag.

You get my point. The mags are a little clumped together right now and need distinct personalities of their own. Each with it's own unique advantages. Some people will buy one of each, others will buy all of the parts to build any variation off of one valve (the valve being the "chassis") - the point is that PEOPLE ARE BUYING.

Heck I say take this even further. Gloss anodized the ULE stuff then call it the "Pro line" for "tournament play and fast paced, flashy speedball." The flat black, chunky "high speed gear" is "built to last" and is the "TAC" line. The Electros go into another category. My point is that it is AWESOME that all of the AGD parts (for the most part) are interchangeable - but give them identity as well. Make them distinct - color, weight, and a collective name will do this!

-Calvin

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by AGD
First of all how many dealers do you think we have? How many stock our guns? Not as many as you think. Most of our stuff sells through online places like PBgear and 888.

If you go look on the store our intelliframe sells for less than our MSRP on that product. That was a test to see how many dealers it would aggrivate. In almost a year only one dealer mentioned it.

How come no one abandoned Angels when they overnight dropped their price to 850? I remember PBgear selling off stock at super discounts from what they paid.

Once we get volume up then we can put in a dealer margin.

AGD

Well, I have to admit that I only have three mags on my walls, a Classic, a Mini, and an RTP. To date I have only sold one. I would like to sell more mags, but right now everyone wants cockers, and I think a cheap tac-one would definatly help fix this problem. My only consern is that the Tac-one sales will go too well befor dealers are put in the loop that it might be too late and I'll have another wall decoration that never goes anywhere.

Meph, I do the same thing, warrenty and service well beond what is nessasary, and people still want to save the extra $10. This isn't somuch a problem because I make $25 when their "cheaper" cocker needs timed, but it does create a problem with bringing in the newest and best gear.

[shartley]

Originally posted by bryceeden
Well, I have to admit that I only have three mags on my walls, a Classic, a Mini, and an RTP. To date I have only sold one. I would like to sell more mags, but right now everyone wants cockers, and I think a cheap tac-one would definatly help fix this problem. My only consern is that the Tac-one sales will go too well befor dealers are put in the loop that it might be too late and I'll have another wall decoration that never goes anywhere.

Meph, I do the same thing, warrenty and service well beond what is nessasary, and people still want to save the extra $10. This isn't somuch a problem because I make $25 when their "cheaper" cocker needs timed, but it does create a problem with bringing in the newest and best gear.
How about this for a thought… and it is just a thought…. If AGD gets enough of the Tac-Ones on the fields, more folks will see them. If they do well, other folks will want to buy them.

I know many people who buy what seems to be popular, or what is “cool” (or what they think is cool because they see a lot of cool people using them). And if the Tac-Ones get that rep…. your problem is solved.. even if the price is raised just a bit. It seems the real issue is to first get them out on the fields…. Let he marker sell itself while being USED, not by sitting on a wall next to other “fancy” markers that may or may not be as good as the Tac-One.

Then the customers will ask YOU for the Tac-One, as opposed to you having to try to sell it to them. We see this all the time with other markers.

[bryceeden]

True, and in reality I don't know why I am posting this much, because as soon as it becomes dealer frendly or what ever happens I'll be getting a Tac-one or two. In reality as long as the low price on the net isn't a perminate thing this will do wonders for my mag sales. The only problem I see is if it isn't a temporary deal, and the extreamly low price is perminate. As a promation run some where around six months to a year this would do wonders for both AGD and its dealers because mags would become the "in" thing for scenarios and then when every one wants one the dealers can sell them for say $50-$60 more than the origonal internet price, then noone complains and it works out great for the dealers and AGD.

[Restola]

I don't see why AGD needs to worry about the brick-and-morter stores. Paintball is an internet sport. Word travels fast on the field and the net, regardless of whether or not the stores that carry mags even recommend them (I've found one guy who works part time at one store that recommends mags first).

If AGD is sick of getting outpriced and dealing with crap from companies that arent going to sell the product anyway, then go 100% online.

Worst case it stays as it is. Best case mags get super-popular and the stores come back begging to buy.

[CoolHand]

Sure, go 100% online. For the pittance that most companys give their dealers, its almost not worth the trouble.

Notice that I said ALMOST.

You stack up all those tiny margins, and you can make a payment, or buy some more stock, or do some R&D work and prototyping.

Now, you take that away, and it doesn't run us out of business, at least not right away. But it does tighten the belt, and force us into "either/or" situtions more often, which ultimately puts us in a position from which it is much easier to fail.

AGD is not the first company to do this to us, NPS (National Paintball) sells many things on 888.com for less than they will sell to me, even in big quantities. Smart Parts too, as well as KAPP, Shocktech, you name them.

From their point of view, it maximizes profits, and it appears to the consumer to save them money, but there is one thing they are forgeting.

You buy a marker, from anyone online, and if you have a problem with it, assuming they will stand behind it, you will be without it for at least a week, more likely two or three.

Advice, service, general assistance with anything PB related, repair, and the friendly atmosphere are just some of the things your local store brings to the table. Cut out all the dealerships, and that all goes away.

You may not know it now, but you WILL miss us when we are gone.

[bryceeden]

Very good point coolhand, I have on several occasions fixed markers that are well out of their warranty, I don't think many internet places do that. While this thread is getting off topic I would like to point out that myself I spend thousands of dollars, that I useually don't directly make back, to put on tournements and scenarios, and I spend more time talking to city counsels and the forest service than I do school work(yes, I am a senior in high school, no I didn't get held back or drop out, I just started my shop alittle early because the sport was dieing and no one else would.) If I didn't produce tourneys or scenarios no one out here would, and the sport wouldn't survive long. In the two years I have been doing buisness I have taken the sport from groups of five or six people going into the backwoods and playing to an organised(and televised) sport that even has a city sponsored leage that plays in stadiums, on the scenario side I have produces several good sized scenarios, and have a rec ball group of 30+people who use my shop as a means of communication to get more people to go play each week and play on fields that I have built with refs I provide at no cost to them because there are no official organised fields in this area. Before you decide to take the local shops out of the picture think about everything they do to grow the sport that the online store can't.
Back on the subject of the Tac-one, I trust AGD and I am sure they will come up with a plan to make this work for every one.

[hobbesTZ]

I just bought an Impulse, and now this comes out.


Drat.

[sharpshooter1286]

How about some pics?

[Lohman446]

Theres problems in the reasoning for needing a dealer to service a mag - don't take this as an insult.

When I first got my mag (my first paintball gun was a used smart mag which I purchased off e-bay) I had it repaired by Nuwave Paintball down in Battle Creek. Now John had to take every o-ring and replace it, rebuild the power tube - he charged me parts (sure he made some money there) and $5 labor - not nearly enough for his time and the expertise he shared with me in showing me how everything worked.

That being said, I have made it a point to get really really competent on fixing mags (at least I think so) - I carry several of all the "wear" items that come on a mag. I have fixed several mags on the field - likely spent about $40 on parts in a year, and never charged anyone for it. How many fields, with any mag support, do not have a player there that can and will take care of almost every issue that might arise on the field?

Mags are simple to repair, very few things can go wrong with them - a good instruction manual (bump the price enough to inclue a rebuild kit) and I dare say almost everyone could maintenance there own marker. Frankly, if I can manage to figure it out, most anyone out there should be able to as well, I am not on the top of the spectrum.

[CoolHand]

You have unwittingly made my point for me.

Were it not for the benevolent field owner / retailer, it would have taken you mcuh longer to be confident enough to repair your marker yourself.

This dude taught you out of the kindness in his heart, and in doing so, removed your need for him entirely.

Cutting his own throat? Possibly.

Advancing the game, one player at a time? Definitely.

[Lohman446]

I am trying to come up with the right answer to many of the concerns out there and need to flat out state that I cannot.

Lower priced Tac-One - the lower price will likely sell more of these, putting more mags out there. The cost of this lower price appears to be the dealers themselves.

Facts for the dealers - there is not a lot of money to be made on mag upgrades. A dealer can likely sell a new front block at some point to someone who buys a cocker, a new trigger system, something. The Tippmans the RT is almost an easy sell. These are things that some would not shop for online - others will. A nitro tank on a mag - maybe. A barrel system - could possibility.

Now, somewhere here I am supposed to round of the question with an idea, a theory that can keep the Tac-One at this lowball price and keep the dealers happy. When I think of it I will let you know, I expect that TK has a plan somewhere, and am curious to see what it is.

[bryceeden]

I am sure Tom will come up with something. That being said, There are several mag upgrades: Warpfeeds, Level 10, ULT stuff, new triggers(hyperframe), new valves(Retro or X), new main bodys in different feed styles, and if people want to go against recomendation new valve "upgrades" from ANS and Shocktech and such. A Level 10 is an easy sale(almost as easy as the RT with a tippmann) with Classics and Minis

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by bryceeden
I am sure Tom will come up with something. That being said, There are several mag upgrades: Warpfeeds, Level 10, ULT stuff, new triggers(hyperframe), new valves(Retro or X), new main bodys in different feed styles, and if people want to go against recomendation new valve "upgrades" from ANS and Shocktech and such. A Level 10 is an easy sale(almost as easy as the RT with a tippmann) with Classics and Minis

The problem there is the Tac-One is going to come with (it sounds like) and X valve (with level 10), and an intelliframe. I don't think the hyperframe will be easy to sell on top of that to its intended market of scenario players. ULT possibly, I really like my trigger pull as it is, as do some others though. Bodies, yes, I expect you will sell a lot of ULE bodies to people like me who buy one for a tournament marker.

[shartley]

Maybe I am wrong, and maybe I misunderstood what Tom wrote, but I think this marker will come with OPTIONS for frames. And from what I understand, it will also come with the OPTION of CO2 or HPA ready.

From reading a lot of posts, it seems that some people think it will only come in ONE model, and that model having all the upgrades and highest levels of parts. And they are using this as a basis to make arguments (or discussion points). But if you figure in that from what I understand (and again I may be reading what Tom has posted wrong), that folks will be given a choice of options, many of these arguing (or discussion points) become moot points at best.