Still think SP is evil? Better read this..........

[WARPED1]

Looky what I found while surfing.
http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26596
"Dynasty Signs With...
Dynasty and Smart Parts sitting in a tree...That's the deal folks, at least we're 99.99% sure it is anyway. We've been taking turns in the PGI office to press our ears to the ground and maintain a 24 hour Dynasty watch. Zeroing in on every murmur, we've discarded the lies and kept the truths carefully sealed in our top secret files.

Last night we experienced the biggest seismic shift to date and all the evidence now points towards Dynasty and Smart Parts sealing the deal that will see the So Cal kids shooting Shockers next year. We'd bet our lives on it.

We don't have any more details than that at the moment, but expect something more official in the near future. SP are sure to want to parade their new prize and with good reason. Undoubtedly the most popular team in Paintball, Dynasty will do great things for Smart Parts' image.

This also means that the Gardner brothers are now the major sponsors of both major league champions, which is no mean thing. If both Dynasty and the Philly Americans can repeat their success in 2004 then Smart Parts will need to buy a few extra trucks to shift all their Shocker orders.

Watch this space."

[LaW]

And that makes them? more evil? less evil? Not sure, these things happen often. Teams go where the money is.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by LaW
And that makes them? more evil? less evil? Not sure, these things happen often. Teams go where the money is. It's all just a matter of perception.

[snoogans]

Smart parts may have had some dumb decisions but they aren't evil. This is what companies do, they try to monopolize their product area but to a limit. It made them more money and that is the key goal in a business. Dont turn this into one of those SP haters threads cuz of this but its my opinion that Dynasty made a good decision with this one. That's all i'll say.

[spantol]

Yeah, what Law said. It's an investment for both parties, and a small bit of damage control for SP. It doesn't redeem anything.

[dinger]

this makes me no longer think SP is evil...











it now has me KNOWING they are! :mad: dynasty shouldn't have been sucked in :o

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by snoogans
Smart parts may have had some dumb decisions but they aren't evil. This is what companies do, they try to monopolize their product area but to a limit. It made them more money and that is the key goal in a business. Dont turn this into one of those SP haters threads cuz of this but its my opinion that Dynasty made a good decision with this one. That's all i'll say. I knew us Pie guys were intelligent!:)

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I always thought Dye had more money to throw at Dynasty...oh well..

[kevdupuis]

So, it looks like they're buying a team.
Does it mean anything to me?
No.

[WARPED1]

No, it just means anyones plans of a boycott will/did fail...........

[abarnhar]

Eh, regardless of the effectiveness of the boycott, SP has tarnished its image with a large portion of the paintball world. Suing ICD might have been a smart buisness move (arguable), but it did nothing to help the community of paintball. Paintball as an activity is unique because it fosters one of the best communities within a sport that I have seen. With its recent actions, SP clearly wants to see itself as the head of a buisness-opprotunity, not a participator in that excellent community.

They bought a team, weee. Reread my last sentence.

[-=Squid=-]

All the mods on PBN are confirming that this is BS, and that one person even spoke to Dynasties manager about this. BS folks, loud and clear. However, I dont have beef with SP.

[GA Devil]

Who cares about Dynasty. Everyone seems to be on their ban wagon. Not like their super heros or anything. No Im not saying Im better then them or even close to as good as them but just sick of hearing about them liek their the best thing in paintball. There are so many other things about our sport to read about. Yeah they do real good in it but not deserving the amount of attention they get like their super human or something. Yeah I know someone will go off on me about saying this in their defense but they will just prove my point.

[WARPED1]

You go to BSNation for accurate info?! Are you mentally ill?!

[abarnhar]

Originally posted by GA Devil
Who cares about Dynasty.I guess SP does. :D

I have to agree. There is a large disjunction between the headliner "professional" paintball teams and the rest of the sport. All the professional teams do is produce hype, help companies sell overly-extravagant gear, and further commercialize paintball. To this end, Dynasty and other teams fulfill the buisness-centered needs of SP more than they help the average Joe or Jane in the sport.

In the end, you posting that SP is no longer evil because they have picked up Dynasty as a team really does little to address the issue. If anything, it futhers the point that SP is simply a buisness that is thumbing its nose at the community of paintball.

Also, don't knock people who consult outside sources. PBN might not be the jewel of your paintball world, but it helps many people.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by WARPED1
No, it just means anyones plans of a boycott will/did fail...........

Boycott? When was there anything but TALK of a boycott.;)

Jay.

[Sir_Brass]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


Boycott? When was there anything but TALK of a boycott.;)

Jay.

since there was more than a TALK about a lawsuit by SP. I know many others besides myself who will NOT buy SP products ever again or even begin to use them in the first place.

[dansim]

i just got a brand new angel sticker it says
triple crown winners
dynasty
ANGEL

so speculate away;)

[bornl33t]

SP is taking alot of dirt, they are trying to clean the slate with a popular team. SP is never gonna be able to clean that stench off them...

[cphilip]

SP outright bought em. Period.

No matter what product you buy, in the end, you will be sending a little of your money thier way if this kind of thing continues. They can sit back and make money off everyone elses efforts at some point. At some point they do not even have to MAKE anything. Royalties will keep em fed.

[Torbo]

only thing that bugs me is that now a million kids will be shooting shockers now.......cuz theyre the best! eaysh, all it is is annoying but still

[Halliday]

Originally posted by GA Devil
Who cares about Dynasty.

Exactly. So they are the best cheaters? Big deal.

Those new Shockers are nice thou. I got to check one out at the local "Pro" shop. Very light and sweet.

[edweird]

Undoubtedly the most popular team in Paintball, Dynasty will do great things for Smart Parts' image.

Hrrm I think a heaping bag of flaming dog crap left at SP's door would improve their image also....

Oh well good riddance to bad rubbish. I hope they are happy with their new business arangement and go to hell together.

[Sir_Brass]

Originally posted by cphilip
SP outright bought em. Period.

No matter what product you buy, in the end, you will be sending a little of your money thier way if this kind of thing continues. They can sit back and make money off everyone elses efforts at some point. At some point they do not even have to MAKE anything. Royalties will keep em fed.

not if I don't buy an electro they won't! :)

If they even try and TOUCH PPS, they'll lose. Glen has already come out and said as much. They won't touch him. And they won't even be able to even LOOK at the pump market. So, my money will NEVER go towards SP. :)

Time for the mechanical reRevolution!

[Meph]

Actually Dynasty doesn't have to cheat, they have the PRO refs fixing the calls in their favor each time. Gotta love Chuck!

[AcemanPB]

Smart Parts is going to have a hell of a time going after companies like Brass Eagle and WDP, I don't really think SP's patent will hold up against Brass Eagle.

[abarnhar]

Originally posted by Sir_Brass
Time for the mechanical reRevolution! Can we formalize this in some way?

[AGD]

Pro team + sponsor dollars = product sales. Its a given, an absoulute, an over and done with. Its inspiring to know that thousands of teenagers can be controlled so easily. That a sea of humanity who would argue that they are independent thinkers and make their own decisions will "decide" to use whatever they see a pro use. Even more interesting is that its a done deal BEFORE they even see the product in use.

I think Warped has his thumb on the pulse of the market. In order to see it so clearly you must be in the middle of that pack somewhere.

AGD

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Originally posted by AGD
...

I think Warped has his thumb on the pulse of the market. In order to see it so clearly you must be in the middle of that pack somewhere.


Zing!

SP has some cut-throat business practices, and some might argue that blatant self-interest is evil. Scoring a successful team as spokespersons is a PR coup, but should make no difference to a thinking persons opinion of the company.

Sadly, "thinking persons" are a distinct minority.

[p8ntball1016]

Originally posted by Meph
Actually Dynasty doesn't have to cheat, they have the PRO refs fixing the calls in their favor each time. Gotta love Chuck! chuck hendsch is no longer affiliated with dynasty.

[Halliday]

Originally posted by p8ntball1016
chuck hendsch is no longer affiliated with dynasty.

That has no affect on "Pro" players cheating and having other "Pro" players reffing them and making sure the calls go a certain way. Let's see.........Chuck use to play on Dynasty......then he "quit"....but now owns/runs the tourney they play in. Hummm...

You got it Meph.

[CoolHand]

Originally posted by AGD
. . . . In order to see it so clearly you must be in the middle of that pack somewhere.

AGD

That seems unnecessarily harsh.

The guy was just reporting a item he belives to be fact, and a conclusion that just about anyone could have drawn.

To then shoot back a venomous remark like that, really only serves to make you seem childish.

We all lash out in frustration or whatever, its just usually best not to have it on public record. :D

Later

[abarnhar]

To defend Tom's remark:

He noted that the Warped did have his "finger on the pulse." That isn't a particularly inflammatory remark. Couple "you must be in the middle of the pack" with it and it's pretty plain to see that Tom was merely remarking that Warped has a good handle on the commercial paintball scene.

Now whether or not that is a good thing is an entirely different story. :D

[CoolHand]

I thought (and still do) that he was refering to Warped as being in the middle of (and by association, a part of) the "sea of humanity" who are "so easily controlled".

Were someone to say that to me, I would have been offended, as it is very much akin to calling me (or Warped) a mindless puppet.

While this may be true (I do not personally know Warped), I just found it to be in poor taste for someone of obvious intelligence (such as Tom) to go for the easy (though veiled) insult as a means of discredit, rather than backing him into a corner with a logical argument.

Just commenting on the process by which the point was made, nothing else.

[Blazingace]

IMHO that makes them MORE evil. ANd not in the good way that I like.:mad:

[Sir_Brass]

Originally posted by abarnhar
Can we formalize this in some way?

Start by getting the PPS loyalists and mechanical mag loyalists together and spread out from there. After all, gotta start a revolution by combining the strongest two camps of those who're willing to revolt :D.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by WARPED1
You go to BSNation for accurate info?! Are you mentally ill?!
Several of the admin on PBN sold Angels to Dynasty and there are several Angel techs that know the team on there. I'd take their word over this article's.

[abarnhar]

Brass... you have a PM

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by Sir_Brass


Start by getting the PPS loyalists and mechanical mag loyalists together and spread out from there. After all, gotta start a revolution by combining the strongest two camps of those who're willing to revolt :D.
There's more mech Cocker users than Mag and PPS users put together.

[abarnhar]

We'll bring them onboard also!

[Furby]

http://www.paintballchannel.com/browse.php?mod=article&opt=view&id=304&style=details

Heh...old news...and before the flames come, my source is very, very knowledgeable, and NOT based in California.

My .02...like it or don't.

[B-Lazy]

'Cockers and Mags uniting. Oh my god the world is ending.

[SyntaxError]

Originally posted by Meph
Actually Dynasty doesn't have to cheat, they have the PRO refs fixing the calls in their favor each time. Gotta love Chuck!

Bingo! Ollie doesn't look so great while hes making his run-thru with 10 hits on him (a la vs. Rage in NJ)

I'm interested if this is also coming with their choice to play XBall next season? Maybe WDP is cutting ties because they pretty much fund the NPPL?

[SyntaxError]

Originally posted by p8ntball1016
chuck hendsch is no longer affiliated with dynasty.

and isn't that what he said the LAST time he was no longer affiliated with them? Lol, he's said it at least twice if not more.

[Sir_Brass]

Originally posted by abarnhar
We'll bring them onboard also!

amen to that :). cocker, mags, typhoons, squalls, hurricanes, strokers, blazers, and pumps of all kinds UNITE! :D heh heh heh

[AGD]

My comments to Warped WERE thinnly veiled. There are a lot of facts that I know as an industry person that I unfortunately can not share in public. It is frustrating to try and come from a postition of truth and constantly get beaten down.

To me Warped's thinking perfectly represents the average paintball player. I have come to the conclusion that this will never change and occasionally I feel the need to lash out. It may have been harsh but in reality I truly think he is a pretty tough guy. He isn't afraid to voice counter opinions on this board no matter how unpopular. For some reason Warped you just push my button. If you want call me at work and we can talk about it.

AGD

[personman]

Originally posted by abarnhar
Can we formalize this in some way?
I know! Lets all shave our on/off pins to nothing so our guns will go 30 bps, then travel field to field shooting SP and electro users! mwuahhahahahahahaha
heh

SP, always was, and always will be evil.
We really should riot..

[p8ntball1016]

how are they evil? they may be jackasses, but they are smart jackasses. i dont see you complaining about every non paintball company doing the same thing.

[GT]

fellas...

This is classic. You have two camps in any industry, Those who love what they do and will do anything to contiue and those who will do anyting to make money.


now run a mental picture over what companies you buy from and what they represent.

I could be wrong but this is my list of guys that love what they do: AGD, AKA, OTB, Docs Machine, ICD, Palmer, Powerlyte, WDP, WGP and yes even tippmann. There are some unlisted, are they evil? Is there anything wrong with making money?


I dont have the "Tom" insight so this is based on what little I know

[Meph]

Originally posted by p8ntball1016
chuck hendsch is no longer affiliated with dynasty.

That's what he claimed but I don't believe it. And he had to make that statement after the turnout of NPPL New Jersey. If you were there you would know exactly what I'm talking about.

SyntaxError knows the couple of incidents (or at least one) I'm talking about.

[p8ntball1016]

i was gonna go, considering i was 45 minutes away, but i aint gettin up at 6:30 just to get there at 8.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Ov3rmind

Several of the admin on PBN sold Angels to Dynasty and there are several Angel techs that know the team on there. I'd take their word over this article's.

Somehow I HIGHLY doubt that any member of Dynasty has had to purchase a marker for a long time.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by Lohman446


Somehow I HIGHLY doubt that any member of Dynasty has had to purchase a marker for a long time.
You doubt, I know. There are pictures of Oli Lang using ffry's space framed 03 LCD.

[SyntaxError]

Originally posted by Meph


That's what he claimed but I don't believe it. And he had to make that statement after the turnout of NPPL New Jersey. If you were there you would know exactly what I'm talking about.

SyntaxError knows the couple of incidents (or at least one) I'm talking about.

Yeah, if anyone watched the finals game between Dynasty and Rage at NJ you KNOW something was up.

In addition the admins on PBN "selling" guns to Dynasty are HK (hostile kids) members, who do most of the trigger work and mods to their and the Dynasty kids' guns, spurring the name "HK Technology" with their magnetic trigger and "flipped microswitch" mods. More likely they bought the guns from Dynasty players and trade off considering they do work on lots of those guns anyway.

[Ov3rmind]

Either way, they have closer ties with Dynasty then anyone else shooting their mouths off on here.

But just for fun :D :

ffry's spaceframed 03 (SyntaxError, they may have bought Dynasty guns, BUT ffry was the original owner of this one) in the hands of Ryan Greenspan,

http://www.paintballstar.com/events/album38/IMG_1618.jpg

http://www.paintballstar.com/events/album38/IMG_1592.jpg

And of course the Speed that was used for the HK vid on PBN:

http://www.paintballstar.com/events/album38/IMG_1658.jpg

[theraidenproject]

Here's my opinon:
I don't care about what pro teams do at all. Unless I'm playing for one, that is. I am a teenager who just started playing tourneys, just the market this is supposed to impress, but I still don't give a crap. It is really stupid to take cues from people that are paid to do what they do (if that made sense), and I find it sad that so many of my age group do this, to say nothing of society as a whole outside paintball, but I'm not going to get into a rant about advertising and role-models and whatnot.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

The same colorful, upbeat attitude that speedball ushered in and helped to make the game more well-known and played today is the same one that has become shallow and vulgar. It's a shame because now it is what is holding back the sport. I think it was gtrsi who listed the companies who are in it to make a living which is understandable but also do it because they love the game and respect the fact we are all here to play for the fun of it and it's not about acting tougher than everyone else, inflicting harm, winning no matter what it takes, and all of that filth that teams like Dynasty, Miami Effect, and the All Americans have brought to the sport and the influence their childish, offensive, violent (and I mean the excessive stuff, not the shooting involved in paintball), and greedy behavior has had in shaping the next generation of players to be nothing but scumbags and punks with few exceptions. Sad to say it, but you can't tell me you haven't seen a decline in the sportsmanship and respect people show the game now. It's disgusting and is partly why many people don't want to invest the time and money to take their game to the next level, like tourneys.

AGD, WGP, AKA, Tippman, and a handful of others would benefit from breaking away, starting their own "honor league" promoting a more professional game while still adhering to speedball style, but sadly too many giants like NPS and now SP with the threats of patents have a grip on the industry where these companies can't afford to try. It's sad because so many of them just want a quick buck.

[BTAutoMag]

EVIL... all it is is more advertising... jees i wonder how much they made by giving away stuff

[CodeMA]

Im hearing 75 G off the top to Dynasty from SP....

I could care less about Dynasty...they have a few players I respect....but for the most part...they can "suck it"

[Meph]

Originally posted by p8ntball1016
but i aint gettin up at 6:30 just to get there at 8.

Eh but when you're paid to go it's a much more beneficial motivator! Trust me.

[WARPED1]

Dynasty's Skinny K on Smart Parts Critics

Well recently my team signed a sponsorship deal with Smart Parts for the 2004 season. For whatever reason people all over the internet and forums have called Adam and Billy Gardner Nazi's. By the way I am German and one of my great granfathers names was Adolf. I have heard crazy quotes like "the most hated company in the industry" etc etc. How shockers are a pieces of crap and how all smart parts stuff sucks. (Isn't that funny that the ****ty smart parts stuff won both the nxl and xball division 1 title at world cup)

[zaqwert6]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Dynasty's Skinny K on Smart Parts Critics

Well recently my team signed a sponsorship deal with Smart Parts for the 2004 season. For whatever reason people all over the internet and forums have called Adam and Billy Gardner Nazi's. By the way I am German and one of my great granfathers names was Adolf. I have heard crazy quotes like "the most hated company in the industry" etc etc. How shockers are a pieces of crap and how all smart parts stuff sucks. (Isn't that funny that the ****ty smart parts stuff won both the nxl and xball division 1 title at world cup)

Most people just say that negative stuff 'cause it's "fashonable". If you were at World Cup,you saw that the SP trailers were one of the busiest attendees at the whole event.Few poeple are really boycotting,other than those that never supported SP anyway.

[GT]

Originally posted by WARPED1
(Isn't that funny that the ****ty smart parts stuff won both the nxl and xball division 1 title at world cup)

warped,
I never thought you were retarded enough to give into the hype. Do you honestly think that the crap people play with really gives them an edge over another?

I guess I was wrong:rolleyes:

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

The gear didn't win it, they won it, and that still doesn't mean it was 100% skill. Bad Company competed with Spyders w/o eyes and still smoked alot of teams packing timmy's. The Shocker is better than alot, just not the ones it's claimed to compete with. And Dynasty have been known to play shady like all the rest, though I do acknowledge they have skill. And Div. 1 XBall, wow, really challenging themselves huh? They play pro everywhere else and act tough by sandbagging. Yeah I know they weren't able to get into the Pro division due to the season being set but still. I also think the nazi thing is ridiculous and an incorrect analogy. The Gardners are manipulative, self-absorbed, unethical, greedy, deceitful, scumbags who churn out more hype than WAS and do only what profits them even if making a few bucks more by taking advantage of a governmental loophole risks crippling the sport. Now THAT I believe is a fully accurate statement about SP.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by gtrsi


warped,
I never thought you were retarded enough to give into the hype. Do you honestly think that the crap people play with really gives them an edge over another?

I guess I was wrong:rolleyes: That was a quote from Skinny, and in todays tournament scene, it does matter what kind of equipment you use. There was a time that it didn't, but now it does. After 13 years of playing ball, I've seen the evolution.

[Jonesie]

Originally posted by AGD
Pro team + sponsor dollars = product sales.
AGD

Yet Tom refuses, or at least claims that he is financially unable, to sponsor a Pro Team. WDP, SP, WGP, National, everyone else (just about) has one, and they sell product.

This seems to be a Catch 22 for AGD. You can't sell product without a sponsorship that comes with a high cost. However, you can't afford the high cost of sponosorship of a high quality, visible team without product sales. See where I'm going?

It may be time for AGD to bite the bullet and seek some outside funding to help get themselves into position to be a market leader. They have the know-how and the forward-thinking, but they don't have the naked girls (sorry Clare, keep your clothes on) or the flashy advertising, much less the high profile sponsorship.

I know most of you on AO support Tom, as I do. I also know that you think of paintball as a sport, which it is. However, I think the last thing Tom needs is a bunch of "Yes Men". Furthermore, I think these yes men serve little purpose considering they are his EXISTING customer base. While we do prove to be a benefitial source of input for AGD, we are both LIMITED and BIASED.

Paintball is a BUSINESS as much as, or even more so than, it is a sport. Ask Tunaman, cphilip, Shartley, Rogue, or DataPimp - they'll tell you. The Gardners are smart business men, they aim to protect their innovations. Perhaps Tom should have taken the same approach to his contributions to the sport, like Compreseed Air or Powerfeed. I'm not questioning your business sense, Tom; I commend you for your contributions to the sport for the sake of the sport.

I think that if AGD wants to become one of the MAJOR gun makers, on par with WDP, WGP, SP and National, it's time to seek a form of expansion beyond AO. It's time to find a high profile team to support. I see Dynasty, the Americans, and the N. Dogs in EVERY magazine I pick up. I've seen the Kids and the Lions/Pride in the SkyBall issue. Do the math.

Tom, I hope I "push your button" with this post. I push in a respectful manner, in hopes of helping a company to whom I truly believe in.

Respectfully,
David "Jonesie" Jones

[AGD]

Jonesie,

Find someone with a million bucks and have him call me.

AGD

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by AGD
Jonesie,

Find someone with a million bucks and have him call me.

AGD

If he calls me first,I'll give him some pie.;)

[Python14]

Hey Mr. Kaye, What about college teams? Would it possibly be cheaper to get a college team(since the school may possibly subsidize some of it). Just a thought.


....or you can just sponsor me. I'm an influential member of the Southwest Virginia Paintball community. When I started using mags and demonstated LX to the masses(of noobs), products moved from the local store's shelves. Plus, I won't leave because of "business".:D

[snwbrdr913]

I know this may be random and off topic, but I notice looking at all these people with PIE REVOLUTION sigs, they weren't even here back when the whole ridiculous pie thing started, and everyone put pie in their polls and everyone voted for pie. In fact the only person here I recognize is shartley. And personman.

[Butterfingers]

Sponsorship is also a double edged sword. You float the money to sponsor a pro team and there is no gaurantee that they will give you the results you want. Sure you may sell more guns and become big but how are you gonna offset the cost? reduced quality? To date I have never seen a paintball gun put together to such exacting tolerances as an Automag.

Its happening to WDP. Thier US sponsored teams are falling off thier screens as we speak. Pretty soon you loose enough publicity and you don't sell enough to offset the cost of a pro team then bam you are in debt to your eyeballs. Remember you have contracts you pay them based on a pre arranged agreement.

AGD has survived because it has a solid customer base and excellent markers. So far this has worked. Sales are based on the quality of the products that the company produces... Not on hype generated by the media.

Tom isnt greedy thats why AGD has survived this long and is recognized as one of the industry leaders.

[GT]

Originally posted by WARPED1
That was a quote from Skinny, and in todays tournament scene, it does matter what kind of equipment you use. There was a time that it didn't, but now it does. After 13 years of playing ball, I've seen the evolution.


ALL ABOARD!

Quick wapred the hype train is leaving. Where will it stop this week matrix? impulse? shocker?

[Jonesie]

Originally posted by AGD
Jonesie,

Find someone with a million bucks and have him call me.

AGD

No offense, Tom, but I find this reply highly insulting.

Again, I'm not here to question your business, only to provide valuable, reasonable ideas.

I do understand that a Pro Sponsorship is quite expensive, I'm sure $1 million is a low-ball estimate for a team like Dynasty (Paint, Travel, Entry, Equipment, etc.) However, businesses in America finance large capital requirements everyday.

I'm sure your initial investment for the equipment at the factory was financed in some way. I know you don't actually fabricate much of your product, however I'm sure there is a collection of expensive equipment in the place, and I'm sure there is a means available to raise that kind of captial.

However, I do not mean to imply that such a move has to occur immediately, and I certainly don't imply that you should put your company's financial well-being at risk (or your own).

All I know is that everyday, small businesses find ways to finance their growth. Whether you hook up with some venture cpaitalists, take on (a) partner(s), call the bank, or play the lotto... ;)

Best of Luck, Tom ~ Jonesie

[Ginjiroku]

I don't hate smart parts but I don't like them that much, but how does SP buying a team make them less evil?

[LaW]

Originally posted by Jonesie


No offense, Tom, but I find this reply highly insulting.

Again, I'm not here to question your business, only to provide valuable, reasonable ideas.

I do understand that a Pro Sponsorship is quite expensive, I'm sure $1 million is a low-ball estimate for a team like Dynasty (Paint, Travel, Entry, Equipment, etc.) However, businesses in America finance large capital requirements everyday.

I'm sure your initial investment for the equipment at the factory was financed in some way. I know you don't actually fabricate much of your product, however I'm sure there is a collection of expensive equipment in the place, and I'm sure there is a means available to raise that kind of captial.

However, I do not mean to imply that such a move has to occur immediately, and I certainly don't imply that you should put your company's financial well-being at risk (or your own).

All I know is that everyday, small businesses find ways to finance their growth. Whether you hook up with some venture cpaitalists, take on (a) partner(s), call the bank, or play the lotto... ;)

Best of Luck, Tom ~ Jonesie



You make it sound like its a win win situation. However with this huge "investmant" it could turn around and bite airgun in the arse possibly leading them to go out of business in the worst case scenario. Its a large gamble to take for a paintball company in my opinion unless you can afford it if the outcome is less then exceptional.

Although small businesses sure find ways to finance growth, in paintball it is not guaranteed that the financing put towards growth actualy has the desired affect.

Just my .02's

[AGD]

Jonesie,

I am sorry, I really didn't mean it to be insulting I was actually being serious. About a million bucks is what it would take to do a good promo job. You can't get that kind of money from a bank, only from a partner willing to take the risk. Paintball is not the type of thing people understand in the financial world.

AGD

[Jonesie]

Hey Tom, no harm done. Just trying to play Devil's Advocate to stimulate a little friendly business discussion. :)

OK, lets pull pback a bit from the whole "Sponsorship" thing and go with a less risky idea...

Try an agressive marketing approach that is in the style of Kingman. The risk is a lot safer, no real dependance on the performance of others, and I'm sure it's a lot cheaper.

Kingman ads are everywhere. Hence, so are Spyders. Now, the Mag and the Spyder are aimed at a totally different customer base, but the concept can still be applied. Moreover, this approach can be attacked on two fronts...

#1: The E-Mag, X-Mag, RT and other "Tournament-level" guns.
Facefull, PGI, PB2x and other mediums that tend to focus on tournament style paintball. Buy two-page ads, plaster the hell outta them with AGD, the Warp, ULE, Flatline, etc. The results may not be apparent immediately, but you will wear down the clientel, eventually AGD will seem as familiar to readers as WDP, WGP, or the Timmah! :)

#2: The TacOne, Mini, RT, Mag, and other "Rec" level guns.
Advertise these in such magazines as APG, and other "rec-ball" or "Scenario Ball" publications.

#3: An added idea. Produce one of those full color catalogs like JT and SmartParts put out. Send some to every paintball store in the nation. This is a relatively low cost option, that should put your products in the hands of every player (who visits a shop). Not to mention the fact that everyone loves free stuff.

Just a few ideas to kick around for the new year. Lower risk (and hopefully lower cost) than sponosorship, but the returns should be more than marginally higher.

Best of Luck ~ Jonesie

[Richter]

catalogs are expensive; my buddy is possibly doing a 2 color, 80 page catalog for a local business. Currently his hourly rate is 80/hour but for such a large bit of work he is possibly going a little lower than the hourly rate. at 3 hours a page 80*3= 240 hours just to do the design work. that doesn't include the printing time and cost, distribution, or having it professioally edited/proofread.

For magazines; have you actually looked at the full page advertising rates? If i remember correctly there around 2000 for a full page in one issue. Mind you get discounts for running same adds mulitple months or by how many more adds you have in one issue. I make you a bet that kingman spends more than 5 to 10 grand a month on adds in just one magazine.

[AGD]

To give you an example, Budd last time I counted was doing 15 pages in the major magazines. At 2k per page that's $30,000 PER MONTH. That's a lot of coin and Budd certainly doesn't have a corner on the most adds.


AGD

[maglover52]

no matter what dynasty will still have my support. unless they go to spyders! but i dont think that will happen. i think they should have stuck with wdp or gone to matrixes but its where the money is so i would take that much cash to use smat parts to!

[Jonesie]

OK, Tom. You have provided a good retort to each of my ideas. I will ask some final questions of you before I remove my "Marketing Hat" :)

Obviously, since your acquisition of AO, you have seen an increse in product sales, is this fair to assume?

TK: Not necessarily true.

Now, my understanding is that AO was a way for you to "get back into paintball" as you were less involved previously working with government stuff. (to put it simply).

TK: Yes it put us directly in touch with the customers.

So, do feel AO was a good investment? Has it incresed you market share at all, or has your share grown proportionally with the market?

TK: Yes it was a terrific investment but like so many things for every answer you get more questions. AO has demonstrated that its almost impossible to come out with things that will be universally liked based on features alone.

I like you grass-roots approach to marketing. I feel that it has the ability to be highly successful long term. The idea is to get Mags out at the fields, thru memebers of AO. Then let people shoot those Mags to realize how much they've changed since the bead-blasted tubes came out. (BTW - I LOVE my bead-blasted body).

TK: Yes that was the plan, it worked for Krispy Kreme who do verly little advertising but a lot of outreach. Here on AO we try and giveaway the warm dounuts.

AO seems to be the most viable solution for your company, until other alternatives become available. I know you had purchsed banner ad space on WarPig, have you considered doing the same on other high-traffic PB sites, such as PBN, FoN, or any others? If so, do you think that they have paid-off?
TK: As AO has pointed out, the internet world clearly knows about us, its the rest of the world thats lagging.

TK: This is a chicken and egg problem. THe bigger companies have more visibilty with bigger add budgets. With the percentage of marketing hype in paintball today this leaves the smaller companies out in the cold. Add budgets are usually based on a percentage of sales. Even if we doubled that percentage, against our gross we would still be invisible.

Simply put, it takes a bell ringer of a product to take off on its own and be a hit. That happens less frequently than it used to. It happen to Bob Long who didn't do a thing different to make the timmy a big hit. Once it was rolling he could then promote it and make cool bodies etc. Conversely, Angel has fallen off the pedastal from no fault of their own. They still do some of the best marketing in the business and yet they are struggling. So you can see that not having adds doesnt prevent you from success and having adds doesn't keep you from collapsing.

This is a fashion concious industry and like clothes you never know what the next style to hit is going to be.

AGD


I would like to thank you for being a good sport thru this conversation. I really thin I've learned a great deal from your input! :)

Thanks ~ David

[teamkamakazee]

hey tom,

im starting a pb buisiness and i was wondering if you could give me some buisiness pointers because you seem to be pretty knowlegable about your company.and i think smart parts made a good buisiness move if they had a patened design the other companies should have looked to see if any one did that would save them from getting sued. every one is trying to copy the smart part design ( except you tom) and look what is happening to them they are getting sued now well they should have put there minds together and came up with there own design so in a way the companies that got sued are copying smart parts TOM PLEASE PM ME WITH A RESPONSE

[AGD]

Teamk,

It has been my ongoing recomendation that people treat paintball as a fun hobby not as a money making business. If you are going into this business you should be aware that even though you invent and develop your own unique product today, another company can come out with a patent later that they can sue you over. If you don't understand how this could possibly happen, then you should look for another line of work.

Respectfully,

AGD

[ZyperioN]

now if i'm reading that correctly, thats Tom laying down some massive ownage:D

[AGD]

I anwered Jonsie in his thread.

AGD

[shartley]

Originally posted by ZyperioN
now if i'm reading that correctly, thats Tom laying down some massive ownage:D
I would not say that really. What he said is for ANY industry. And what he said applied to ANY business.

If you think it only relates to SP then I suggest you look at just about every industry out there and look to who the leaders are… then do some research into how they got there. I think folks would be very surprised at what they find. And their image of “business” or the “business world” will forever be changed.

Reality is not always pretty, nor is it always “feel good”. And that does not mean you have to be a scumbag or underhanded to be successful, because you don’t. But many of the companies folks look up to now days got there by stepping on the little guy, being less than above board, and other things that would make what SP did look like nothing at all.

This is also not a justification for anything either. But in the ocean of business, SP was not even a nurse shark with their actions. There are bigger and badder sharks out there actually doing some serious biting. And folks support them each and every day. ;)

[teamkamakazee]

im thinking you dont want any more competion tom HAHAHA im just playing around i am into the sport for fun and since i love it so much i was thinking hey maybe i can make a few bucks to the side by making something it is worth a try

[Jonesie]

Hey Tom, one of my favorite bands, Local H, who is ironically from Chicago, has a song called "All the Kids are Right" about falling out of grace with the fans. I think it totally fits with the Paintball Industry.

Key Lyrics:
All the kids, they hold a grudge
Their minds are logged onto the net
And all the kids, they hold a grudge
You fail them and they won’t forget it
All the kids, they’re tired and turn away

I've seen it first hand. One of my teammates asked me last night if I wanted a Shocker since the news of the sponsorship. I just smiled and said "Why? I have an X-Mag!" :D

Thanks Again for the insightful debate. It's a nice "real-world" angle, as compared to my business classes.

Later ~ Dave