Annodizing voids warranties????

[pointm@n]

Hey all,

I've been thinking of getting my emag reannoed after I got all the pieces in place and I just have a few questions. My main concern is if I get it annodized will this in any way void the AGD warranty? Also will getting it annodized a different color throw of the operating specs out of tolerances to the point that it won't function properly? What's the official AGD stance on this issue?

I was talking to some of my buddies and one thinks that it will void the warranty while another friend thinks that it won't. I did a search on the topic and found this thread pertaining to Xmags/SFL (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68649&highlight=anno+void) If you're too lazy:


Originally posted by AGD
The problem with getting any gun reanoed is the old ano is removed in an acid bath. This burns away the aluminum and opens up all the holes and takes metal off everything.

The main problem we have is that it opens up the threads. The biggest problem is the main washer that is threaded into the body to stop the bolt. If the threads open up it is no longer centered properly and the bolt is not centered in the breach. Now you have big problems.

Reano at your own risk, we do not do that.

AGD

Now I'm thinking that this means any markers not just Xmags/SFLs. I've seen a lot of guys on the board get thier guns reannoed, how has it performed afterwards. So please share your views on this and if someone from AGD can comment that would be awesome. If it means voiding the warranty I won't do it, I like the color black anyways...

[FragTek]

Rogue brought this to my attention last night, and I was very surprised to hear it. But, I wasn't looking at the full spectrum of properties that are taken into play when you go to re-anodize something. After everything is factored in I could see where you could have some potential issues with spacing an alignment.

Thanks for your help Rogue, and thanks for this thread Pointman, I am sure that many many people will find this VERY helpful as they make the choice whether or not to ano their mags.

I have now chosen against anoing my E-Mag for this reason.

[pointm@n]

Does AGD sell ULE Bodies raw? If so, I might have to think about getting it one of those...

[FragTek]

Nope :( I can check with Jon and see if he wants to hook me up with one, I'm sure it can't be that hard to get one. Lemme check for ya. Or Rogue could more than likely tell you.

[FragTek]

Yeah, I just got word back from Jon, he sells them but has none in stock.. see Rogue :)

[pointm@n]

Kewl, I'll keep you in mind Rogue for the body. I want to get things in place before I do this. I don't think getting the trigger frame annododized will affect tolerances. My only concern now is the Rail, and the body.

[FragTek]

The frame you are OK on... Same with battery housing and such. I guess its just rail and body that becomes the main problem.

[rpm07]

I re-annoed my Emag and it works fine as long as you dont touch the valve you are fine. As for warranties could some one please tell me what the big deal is. Think about it for a second how many people send in parts for it. There are not many things that could go wrong with a body or a rail that you would have to send it in for a new one, the valve yes but everything else no. As for anno changing the specs of a gun it could do it but the most you would have to do is get a new on-off pin.

[CoolHand]

The problem with getting any gun reanoed is the old ano is removed in an acid bath. This burns away the aluminum and opens up all the holes and takes metal off everything.

The main problem we have is that it opens up the threads. The biggest problem is the main washer that is threaded nto the body to stop the bolt. If the threads open up it is no longer centered properly and the bolt is not centered in the breach. Now you have big problems.

Reano at your own risk, we do not do that.

AGD

First off, ano stripper is a very strong BASE, not an acid. Also, the new strippers are very good at taking only the ano layer (aluminum oxide), and leaving the virgin aluminum alone.

If everything is done correctly, there should be absolutely no difference in dimensions before or after an ano job.

The only way you can open up the holes, or dissolve away virgin alum, is to use very strong base solutions not specifically designed for anodizing.

It is also very hard to build up an ano layer that is too thick. Once the entire part is covered, the resistance goes way up, and further ano buildup takes longer and longer and longer. Eventually the part just won't conduct electricity anymore, and the process halts all together.

The only ano operation that you let go that long is a military grade hardcote, which at the very thickest might end up being 0.001" tall. Now a paintball style ano will not be even half that tall. (0.005" or less)

Notice I said TALL. That's because ano grows out from the surface of the aluminum, making the part marginally larger. When you strip it off, you bring the part back to the same size it was before it was ano'ed the first time. Then you can reano it, and grow a whole new layer that ends up making the part exactly the same size it was before you changed the color.

Now I might buy the possiblity that reano could maybe cause an alignment issue with the body washer, but really, we're talking about a steel washer that sees cyclical loads inside an aluminum housing. WEAR will change the dimensions 10 times as much as a dozen reanodizings

I have seen the CAD files, and calling for tolerances of 0.0005" looks good, but lets be honest here, no one can hold that kind of tolerance in aluminum, and still sell the part for $150 (talking about a ULE body here, just for illustrative purposes). You will loose nearly that much metal just in finishing and deburring.

I'm not trying to say that AGD products aren't made to exacting standards, I just have trouble believing that they can hold tolerances down to half a thou, and even more trouble believing that those ridiculously close tolerances actually make any difference.

Especially having seen the things that people do to mags (abuse wise), and still have them work flawlessly. While that is a tribute to the inheirent robustness of the mag, it illustrates how much you can "open up" the tolerances and still have the marker function as designed.

Now, bring on the flames. :D

[Steelrat]

Actually, you made some convincing arguments. I think this is a VERY important discussion, as I know of people who want to reanno X-mags and SFLs. Now, (name of gun maker deleted) has the same no reanno policy. However, I called up (owner of the company), and he said they have that policy to discourage people from having their guns annoed by those shops set up in garages, you know, the ones with the chemicals kept in coolers.

(Owner of the company) told me that a quality anno shop would not harm their markers in any ways, and would not void the warranty. Im guessing that, like anything else, you can get results ranging from crap to great with annoes, depending on how much you invest and the quality of the job.

[rpm07]

I also remeber someone posting that a few of the Xmags in the last batch the anno was srewed up and they were going back to the anno to be fixed. So whats that tell ya

[rpm07]

Also like Steelrat pointed out Dont use a guy that does anno in his house use a company that annos paintball guns and know what they are doing

[pointm@n]

Thanks for posting everyone. You guys have brought up very valid arguments for each side. What I'm really hoping for is for someone at AGD to unequivocally say it voids the warranty or it doesn't. I'm sure many people have reannoed their guns without problems but what happens when they need AGD to tech thier guns. Will AGD turn them away? AGD Techs fix Micromags and I guess it's up to the Tech's discretion to fix it, but I doubt a tech will turn you away because your gun is pink instead of blue.

[cledford]

If I remember the lecture at the tech class correctly the max tolarance in the mag is one thousandth of an inch. Cphil can refresh my memory.

Furthermore - all of the alluminum bodies have a steel washer inside that will not take to the anno process very well at all. (read will get severely corroded) Some SFL owners have gotten theirs out - but it wasn't easy from what I heard.

The toughest thing to get in the raw would be the trigger frame IMHO. I've never seen them offered in the raw - other wise everything else can be had from Rogue or Tuna.

-Calvin

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

I have had this question in my head before. I have contacted AGD and asked them if it was ok to reanodize a xmag. They told me that it is ok to reanodize the marker but didn't mention anything about a warranty.

[FragTek]

Well, if the marker is operationally perfect after an ano from wherever, then all is well. BUT, even if all is well an AGD decides to void your warranty over it, is it worth it? In my opinion no. I would much rather have my gun warranted than be a different color.

As far as tolerances go, they do definately get changed throughout the ano process. Rogue gave me a link to a very interesting "Anodizing Facts / Process" page which explained how the ano process does indeed change the specs on whatever happens to be getting anoed. Enough of a change that it sounds potentially harmful to the correct operation of a mag. Now, I'm not saying that I fully support this theory as I have seen mags that are custom anoed that work as if nothing ever happened to them. But, it did detail the ano stripping process and explained that it does take a good portion of aluminum with the ano and can actually pit the aluminum (I'm sure this sort of thing would never happen if you it were being done by say M.A.X. Ano).

It would be nice to see a CERTAIN answer from someone at AGD that could post the truth about the warranty being voided after a re-ano, because I am VERY curious to know if it's worth it to have the process done. I came very close to sending my mag in for an ano until Rogue brought this to my attention, and then I brought it to Pointman's attention, and it has sparked his "need-to-know" sensors as well. Someone from AGD care to comment?

[Steelrat]

Wait a minute? Re-ano, we dont do that? Didn't someone say that they sent a batch back to get them re-ano'd? So which is it?

[Steelrat]

I remember something about the bad annos too, and I distinctly remember something about them going back, as I found that odd at the time. I'll search.

[Steelrat]

Well as usual something comes up to ruin my day. We have converted to a standard aluminum valve to elminate the problems of keeping valves with different logos in stock. We decided on a plain X for all of them. Unfortunately we forgot to check the logo position in the Xmags before we lasered all that we have.

Now it turns out that the logo hides under the Xmag body as shown below. We will not have another batch of valves come through for a couple months so we cant simply replace them.

For those of you with guns in this batch here are your options.
1. You can refuse the order
2. You can take the gun as is and get a replacement valve when they become available in a couple months.
3. You can take the gun as is and get a 50 dollar discount, no valve replacement.
4. You can refuse the order and get inline in the next batch after this one that is processing through now. We only have ½ of the current batch inhouse so the others still coming in will have this problem too.

By now everyone should just expect this kind of thing when it comes to Xmags. Also if you saw your gun in the pics you might not be getting it becasue we sent a bunch back because of scratches in the ano.

Well, straight from AGD. So they either retouched them (is that even possible, and wouldnt that just jack up the existing anno?) or they were stripped and reanno'd. And if AGD itself can do that, why cant we?

[pointm@n]

Hey I remember seeing that too Steelrat. Good observation.

Also is anyone having a difficulties opening the links that Rogue left?

[CoolHand]

Here's one -


Originally posted by AGD
. . . . . A bunch did come out crappy and we sent them back for re-ano before the show. These guns are NOT FOR SALE and are going to special people involved with the company. . . . . .

AGD

Note there that he said they would not be sold, but they also weren't being thrown away. BTW, that thread was over a year old, and they were talking about the pre-production Xtreams that went to WC in 2k2.

I also destinctly remember one of the AGD staffers or dully appointed reps saying that several parts had to go back to be redone because of scratching and general poor surface finish from the sticky about the next to last batch of XMags, which obviously were sold.

I couldn't find the thread back just now, but when I do, I will post the quote here.

EDIT - Bingo! Steelrat found it. I knew I had not imagined that.

Good job bud. :D

[Steelrat]

Well, how about a re-anno service thru AGD? Out of the ones they sent for re-anno, how many were rejected due to tolerance issues? If it can be done in that instance, it can be done for other guns.

[VanGogo]

Ok, hate to do it, lol, but I will add my 2 cents here.

I have reanodized: 1)ule bodies (adam shannon's)
2)sfl's (jeffrey miller's had already had a home ano job done to it, so that was the 2nd time it was redone)(LoadSM5's as seen at AO SE)
3)quite a few other mags like micromags (ChucktheMAGician's, RRFireblade's)

No one has had any problems with them working as far as I know. I am sure I would have heard from them if there was a problem.

This is not to say that re-anodizing is 100% safe for your marker. As an anodizer I tell my customers it is at your own risk, but the risk is minimal unless you are talking about your valve. But even with that said, I have 2 valves in for re-ano (both X-valves if I remember right) and we will see what happens.
Coolhand had some very valid points in his earlier post,about the wear ect. being greater than a re-ano, but as a manufacturing company that backs up their products with excellent customer service, AGD cannot waste time and resources trying to fix a problem that may have been caused by a re-ano job. Their point is very valid. The only way AGD can continue to give good service, and honor their warranties is to only honor the warranty for parts that are stock and unchanged. Why, because these parts were already checked prior to being put up for sale to ensure that AGD would incur little, to no future costs in the repair of these parts. Makes very good sense if you like to stay in business!
Now all that being said, if you truely wish to have a custom anodized gun, order an X-mag to your liking and wait. Or grow some cajones and get it re-anodized. Just make sure who ever does the work knows what they are doing.

Sig turned off so this cannot be construed as advertising

[CoolHand]

Now that makes sense.

If they would just say "We don't want to be responsable for other's work." that would be fine.

But they don't (now this is going back to a deeper issue), they make up complex excuses, and then have to spend a bunch of time explaining what they said, and then defending what they said.

This has popped up again and again, the XMag ano troubles of a while ago, the bandwidth issues for the forum (read that as no attachments), the re-ano warranty discussion, etc.

I personally don't like being patronized; I doubt many people do, but that is exactly what they are doing every time they make up a story instead of just coming clean and saying what is wrong, or telling everyone they don't know (when it happens they really don't know).

I know I have been a bit critical and very vocal with these criticisms of late, but when someone (AGD in this case) has sway over so many people (even though you guys don't think so), I find it hard not to call out problems when I trip over them (much like the guy who trips on the crack in the sidewalk, and then points it out to every passerby).

I will let this one go for now, I've said my piece.