Possibly new product from OTB?

[Surreal]

http://www.offthebreak.com/Blind_Scene1_Final.jpg

i happened to be poking around on their site, and i found this. looks pretty neat, let me know what you guys think :)

[cphilip]

So what the heck is it? I got no idea what it would do for you...

[Grasshopper]

Looks like some new anti-chop bolt that is made of rubber (or something) so that when it hits a half fed ball it just pushes against it and doesn't really do anything.

And they are asvertising it like the LX. "Blind - The bolt that needs no site" With the LX, you don't need a vision or anything, and it still stops chops.

[pito189]

It's a bolt. The tip is so soft that it wouldn't chop a ball.

[Surreal]

well if i had a guess i would have to say it's some sort of new anti chop bolt that bends instead of crushing the paint. but hey what do i know..

[cphilip]

Ok I with ya now. I kinda slow and medicated today.

[dansim]

Originally posted by cphilip
So what the heck is it? I got no idea what it would do for you...

phil its teh new dye paintball vacum you use it before putting your paint in your hopper its all the touney rage now, only 399.98 at pbgear! im getting two and ill make one low pressure!

[cphilip]

HEY I WANT IT THEN!


:D

[dinger]

hmm.. at the speed it's going to hit the ball, i HIGHLY doubt that it's going to just bend and not chop a ball.


just a spoof, and if anything a fluke.


but 400$? damn, ill take 2 also :D

[AndrewGore(OTB)]

I've heard that there is a video coming out that will make all who doubt become believers. ;)


I guess you could pay $400 if you want, but I think they're going for much less. :)

Andrew

[cphilip]

I will prepare to be dazzled! :D

[cledford]

Possible new product!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

When are their old products coming out? Last time I checked they had only gotten 1 of their numerous promised vert frames to market.

-Calvin

[Ov3rmind]

I'm still waiting on the Advent.

[myangelrocks]

what happens to the 100+ psi that's coming out of the bolt when the end gets pinched off like that?

[LaW]

Where in the marker is there space for the bolt to deform that much?

[phat john23]

Well this sounds like crap. Who wants a rubber bolt. Plus whats to say that it takes the same shape after it hits a half fed paintball. Then you have a misshapen bolt, and i didn't think that rubber was a really smooth material to be used as a bolt.

[Halliday]

Originally posted by LaW
Where in the marker is there space for the bolt to deform that much?

I think you've got it right there. Also, how would the composition of a material affect how hard a ball is hit? Wouldn't it be stuck by the same force if a ball was hit by a feather going 100mph or a brick at 100mph? Maybe the mass.........

[AndrewGore(OTB)]

Here is a little video for you guys. Should clear things up a bit. (note that this is not the production bolt, only a prototype. Production bolt will be much nicer.)

VIDEO HERE (http://www.offthebreak.com/blind.wmv)

Andrew
(video is approx 2.66mb's)

[CoolHand]

Originally posted by Halliday
. . . . . Maybe the mass.........

The mass does make a difference.

F=M*V^2

While the decreased desity of rubber over delrin or aluminum will lead to a lower force due to the reduced mass, as you can see by the equation, velocity makes much more difference.

I bet the soft face will help some though, even if for no other reason than it is more blunt than the delrin or alum alternative.

I've also got a question for the guys at OTB - Would these bolts seal as well as an alum/oring bolt, but not wear the body of your marker?

If so, I think you guys have hit on a useful product, even if it doesn't stop chops. I don't doubt that it would help with chopping as well.

[Jack & Coke]

Looks neat! :)

[Ov3rmind]

That looks pretty cool.

Judging by the vid, it most certainly does work. As for the bolt getting deformed over time, it is possible. Then again, are you really planning on having the bolt hit a half fed ball that often? I'm guessing if it does deform, it could still probably hold up for a year or more. And if OTB is smart, the tips are removeable (then you could buy a pack of 2 or 3 tips, or something like that).

[ashriel28]

something is up with that vid. if you watch closely, the video cuts just before he pulls the trigger and breaks the ball. And does he even pull the trigger when the 'blind' bolt is in there? It looks like he puts the ball in the breech, and then removes the rubber thing.

I'll be impressed when i see a gun shooting at 20bps full auto without chops. Either that, or have someone put a tongue in the breech.

[thei3ug]

I like it.

When are you gunna make one for my Typhoon?

[Tunaman]

20 bucks says TK is laughing out loud right now...:D

[afrankart]

Good concept, looks like it might work, but I have a few worries. In the case of excessive pinching, couldn't the tip become deformed? If it was deformed, (and possibly not deformed), couldn't the soft rubber flex differently enough on each shot to not seal perfectly. This could lead to decreased consistency over the chrono. The video would be much better if you showed that it was capable of sustaining a consistant string of paint before you showed that it doesen't chop. That way we all know that the marker is running high enough pressure to actually shoot paint and not chop. Without that some people might accuse you of setting the marker up so it will chop with the stock bolt, and not chop with yours, reguardless of wether or not it is capable of actually shooting paint to speed.

Interesting, though. I'll have to keep my eyes on this one.

[joshuagore]

There are allot of concerns brought up here.

First one, "20 bucks says TK is laughing out loud right now..." Tom help me our here I know you know thats not true.


Second, the weight of the elastomer used on the tip of the bolt is much lighter than delrin.

Third, there is no friction because the seal between the breach and the bolt tip isn't constant. The bolt is undersized and the tip is tapered. Thin at the front and larger where it meets the delrin. When pressure builds behind the ball the elastomer expands and creates a better than o-ring seal because it fits the form of the breach.

As for the video the cut on the stock bolt is because we fired it and it pushed the ball up and out of the breach because it wasn't half way in the breach so we cut it there. We all know a Impulse with a delrin bolt doesn't stop on a ball very often but I garuntee our bolt stops on the ball every time.

Almost forgot the elastomer we are using has almost no memory. It is NOT a rubber it is a plastic. I could go into the differences but it really doesn't matter. Your grips you use there not rubber, and most anything flexible isn't really rubber its plastic, known as an elastomer. The elastomer we are using has virtually no memory, most guns that this bolt is made for would only really put constant pressure on the rubber during a breach pinch for only 5-30 milliseconds at tops. This is not enough time for the elastomer to bend and stay in place. The elastomer we are using would take in this situation about 10-15 minutes to be affected, and even at that length of time it probably wouldn't be affected enough to require a replacement.

These tips are replaceable and exchangeable for different diameter tips


I understand the concepts this bolt applies are hard to understand. Most paintball knowledge tells you that something like this doesn't work, but we know it does. We are using manufacturing techniques, and applying ideas that work OUTSIDE of paintball. Why limit?

[magnj]

http://www.offthebreak.com/blind.wmv

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=359122&perpage=21&pagenumber=2

Sounds promising

[FreakBaller12]

wouldn't rubber get worn down after a while?
the lx bolt keeps on going and going
i wont belive it till i see 20bps no chops or tongue in the breech, like you guys said

[joshuagore]

Forgot to mention this bolt isn't meant for mags, the level 10 obviously has the mags covered props to Tom on that.

This bolt is meant for guns without something like the level 10 available. Most eyes work MOST of the time and heck some guns don't offer eyes so there is most defiantly people in need of a chopping solution.

[Halliday]

Is there an Angel bolt in the works? *drools*

[i like tictacs]

Originally posted by dinger
hmm.. at the speed it's going to hit the ball, i HIGHLY doubt that it's going to just bend and not chop a ball.


just a spoof, and if anything a fluke.


but 400$? damn, ill take 2 also :D

a bolt moves about 15fps at the msot

[sneakyhacker420]

interesting...


viking bolts possibly?

[JesseB]

you guy are too critical, I say it looks good and as soon as its available I'm personally ordering one for each impulse i own.

[afrankart]

Hey, its your money, spend it how you like. I, however prefer to research all of my paintball investments to their fullest extent before I decide to spend the money I work hard for.

[tony3]

Read what Josh is saying before you post. The bolt tips WILL be interchangable, so if they wear down you can replace them.

I definitely know when they come out I'll be picking one up for sure.

[Ov3rmind]

If they become available for Vikings, I MAY consider it. The thing is, the Lightening Bolt is already designed very well.

[phat john23]

yea i don't think that i would want to replace the lightning bolt on my viking. It seems to work fine and with the evil eyes on forced i don't chop anyway. I think it is a good new idea and what not, but i wouldn't want one

[MrWallen]

It's NOT $400, that was a joke by someone made earlier. Just thought I'd point it out since some people seemed to think that was the price. :rolleyes:

[Trauma]

bolt is probably gonna be like 30 bucks or so

[JoyInTheMadness]

Originally posted by AndrewGore(OTB)
I've heard that there is a video coming out that will make all who doubt become believers. ;)


I guess you could pay $400 if you want, but I think they're going for much less. :)

Andrew

When are the Advents gonna be out! I WANT ONE!

[automan39]

this is a really unique innovation for paintball. It looks really promising. unfortunatly i cant use it since i only have a mag.


just my 2 cents

[Rigster_TBB]

I received my "Blind Bolt" today from www.ratpb.com. I will admit that when I first opened the package and gave the bolt a complete review I was extremely skeptical. The rubber at the front was WAY harder than I thought it would be. The front lip on the rubber part was kind of snug going into the marker breach as well. I put the bolt upside down on a scale to see how much pressure was required to deform the tip and got about 5 lbs at an angle and could push over 13 lbs straight with almost no give, so needless to say I was pretty bummed at paying $30 for something I am figuring now was a complete waste of money. I just stuck it back in it's bag and decided I would eat the restocking fee and just send it back. After I got home from work I thought, hell... I'm curious to see this "Anti-Chop" bolt slice right thru some paint and confirm what I already know. I put a little Dow33 on the rubber part to lube her up a bit and install the bolt in the marker. My Impulse is stock so I am running full 180 psi at the hammer (this is gonna get ugly). I take the feed neck off and tape a paintball in the breach to assure a chop. I turn away and pull the trigger... Damn bolt bounced right off the paint. Bam, Bam, Bam... the freakin' paint will not break... I hammer about 20 times on the paintball, pull it out and there is not a mark on it... So needless to say I was dead wrong about the bolt, even after having it in my hand... It does work...

BTW the paint was RPS Stinger Paint...

Good shooting,
Rigster... :)

[tony3]

Looks awesome, get one for angels, I know lots of non aced speed owners would like one!

[68magOwner]

its already out, looks cool, clear tip, junk like that, dosent really stop chopping, but does help prevent it, comes stock in rat imps

[shivors]

Please make one for my Spyder....please.

[tony3]

They'd be awesome for cheap electro blowbacks, no need for eyes, and no worrying about choppage.

[gc82000]

OK call me pesimistic, but I want to see the bolt shoot a ball not just how gentle it is on paint. The video determined that it will not chop a ball but will it fire a ball through a barrel, ie. 12 or 14 inch barrel would suffice. I have not seen this brought up yet and would like to see a video demonstrate this.

[68magOwner]

people have tehm, they work, also, you do realise that the bolt does not propell the ball, a blast of air does that.

[Thermus]

The spyder owners will go nuts over that!

[kenndogg]

do they make one for a spyder or bko? I would get one for both if they did.

[SpecialBlend2786]

nice idea. are there cocker bolts available?

[Danman69]

I know they make them for bushys and BKOs not sure about oher guns.

[TheTramp]

Good concept, looks like it might work, but I have a few worries. In the case of excessive pinching, couldn't the tip become deformed?

This is exactly what I was thinking.

[68magOwner]

they are out, there are no problems, stop worrying and get one

[1ofkind]

I dunno, those bolts are going at what 50000 fps? At that speed I think anything would chop a ball, but then again look at the lvl ten.

[tony3]

Wow, some people really can't obviously read....the bolt is out, it works, and thats about all.

[1ofkind]

tony3 Wow, some people really can't obviously read....the bolt is out, it works, and thats about all.

Hey don't be fresh, thats your opinion.


68magOwner its already out, looks cool, clear tip, junk like that, dosent really stop chopping, but does help prevent it, comes stock in rat imps

Anyway I've used lots of antichop bolts, forinstints the one on the dragonfly. Bolt has a spring installed inside of it which preforms like the lvl ten. I used a 200rnd viewloader got lots of sprays, but there was just a dab of paint on the bolt after the game was over.

Just want to add to my point before 1ofkind I dunno, those bolts are going at what 50000 fps? At that speed I think anything would chop a ball, but then again look at the lvl ten.
I forgot what space shuttle it was but they belived a piece of styrofoam did it in. And yes they did do test and it appears the foam could have puncharded the heavy metal shuttle at fast velocitys, get what I'm saying... :rolleyes:

[TheTramp]

Here's a well done review on the Blind bolt. I've only seen it for Impulses at but someone above said they make it for ICD guns as well.

http://www.mipaintball.com/otb_blind_bolt.htm

[11_Mile_TMaster]

I dunno, those bolts are going at what 50000 fps? At that speed I think anything would chop a ball, but then again look at the lvl ten.

Heh. I got a chuckle out of that.

Bolts don't go that fast. There's a thread somewhere where someone said the speed that a LX and L7 bolt go... but I can't remember.

Keep in mind, You don't need a terribly fast cycle speed to fire most of these markers fast. The Automag bolt moves maybe an Inch or such...

Let's assume, for a moment, that say the we have a 10 FPS bolt, and the spring returns it at 4 FPS. These are just totally imaginary numbers.

At 10 FPS, that's... umm... a hundred twenty inches/second.
4 FPS return... about 48 inches/second.

Now, this is where I realise why I failed calc 2 twice, because I'm not sure how to make these numbers quite illustrate my point, aside from, if you look at them, and consider the bolt is traveling 1 inch, you can easily get over 20 cycles/second, at these slow speeds.

[Automaggin2]

Well, I have a question....

Would that bolt be able to withstand high rates of fire? Being flexible, wouldnt extremly high rates of fire cause it to warp and distort?

[FallNAngel]

Is there an Angel bolt in the works? *drools*

Not that I know of... but there's something better IMO:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=487397

[the electrician]

that is funny!
why didn't somebody think of that sooner.

I hope it works great. replaceable tips with a few different size sounds good.

can't wait to try one in the ol' cocker.

hey good job coming up with new ideas :)

[tony3]

Well, I have a question....

Would that bolt be able to withstand high rates of fire? Being flexible, wouldnt extremly high rates of fire cause it to warp and distort?

I doubt that'd release it without lots of testing and the such. Also, refer to what ringster said, it took almost 13lbs of force to get it to destort, thats a lot and then it didn't chop a ball.

[845]

So whos gonna stick their tongue in it? :D

[Rigster_TBB]

Hey guys,
Well.... I took my Impulse to the field on Saturday to play some Rec Ball (the only way to play) and the Blind Bolt was pretty much a "No Go"... The marker velocity would not go over 220 fps. Even upping the dwell 8 beeps made ZERO difference. I am unsure if this is because of increased friction due to the rubber lip on the bolt, or because the bolt is so very much lighter than the stock bolt. My Impulse is stock, so I have no way of increasing bolt pressure. So, if you are running a stock Impy and want a drop in modification this may NOT be it. The anti-chop works awesome, but it's pretty much useless if you are shooting almost 100 fps below everyone else... That's my 2 (or 3) cents on this bolt.
Happy shooting,
Rigster...

*The old saying "If it aint broke, don't fix it." comes to mind. My Impulse has never chopped since I had it so I should have just left well enough alone... ;)

[tony3]

Thats strange, considering with an lpr your bolt pressure is between 75-125 usually, and on a stock imp its 180. You should call the great people at epbo and ask them, if they can't give you a good answer call OTB.

[68magOwner]

Hey guys,
Well.... I took my Impulse to the field on Saturday to play some Rec Ball (the only way to play) and the Blind Bolt was pretty much a "No Go"... The marker velocity would not go over 220 fps. Even upping the dwell 8 beeps made ZERO difference. I am unsure if this is because of increased friction due to the rubber lip on the bolt, or because the bolt is so very much lighter than the stock bolt. My Impulse is stock, so I have no way of increasing bolt pressure. So, if you are running a stock Impy and want a drop in modification this may NOT be it. The anti-chop works awesome, but it's pretty much useless if you are shooting almost 100 fps below everyone else... That's my 2 (or 3) cents on this bolt.
Happy shooting,
Rigster...

*The old saying "If it aint broke, don't fix it." comes to mind. My Impulse has never chopped since I had it so I should have just left well enough alone... ;)


hmm, thats odd, i checked this out on PBN...yea, i know, anyway, they all seemed to have it working fine, try putting some dow on the bolt

[Rigster_TBB]

The bolt was lubed pretty well... I lubed the bolt and the breech with Dow before I installed the bolt. The only thing I can come up with is that maybe the Impulse likes it's internals to be within a particular weight range. If you reference "Wolverine's Impulse FAQ" he does mention that internals should be within a particular weight range for optimal performance. If you go to a lighter bolt you may need to get a heavier hammer type thing. No matter, I'll just run my Impy stock, she's happy that way and I'm happy that way now...
Good luck...
Rigster...

Extra Info: (Looked thru PBNation forums, and yes my head hurts now)

1) RatPB recommends running a "Heavy" hammer with the blind, not the stock aluminum hammer (bummer).
2) There is some talk of this first batch of Bolts being too long for some setups. OTB will produce the second run about .02 shorter to compensate for this.
* This gets me thinking that maybe the bolt tip was hitting to soon and not allowing the valve to open all the way.
* Oh well, I'll try another one in a few months after they get all the issues sorted out with these things...