What is the price of your soul??!!

[G-Rock]

First off Happy Thanksgiving to everyone, hope yours is as enjoyable as mine!!

Now some food for thought while you chew down the turkey and gravy today....

How much is your soul worth? Hopefully by now everyone knows of the Dynasty deal, and if not, what rock do you live under??

So, how much is it worth!! How valuable is loyalty compared to the allmighty dollar? Is leaving a valued sponsor or friends worth it for more money? What is your price?

What would be your price to support a company, to leave your current sponsors for their competitor? Does your personal feelings towards their products have a price, will you drop the gear you know adn trust your game to, to support another company? How much is it all worth to you?

For those of you that have no sponsors, what is the price for you to take and say nothing but good things about a product, no matter how it performs, or that companies business practices?

Secondly, what is your individual price to leave your team, the guys you played and bleed for, for another team, what reasons would you leave, and what price tag would you leave under?

I am not talking about just money value here either for both of these, there is alot of reasons to leave sponsors, and teams, for another, free entries, free paint, etc...

What is the price of your soul??

Chris Geiger

[mirthvader]

Hey, business is business. No souls involved. People gotta eat.

I don't agree with Smart Parts suing everyone but after a few years in any large business you need to get a little hard to survive.

[Bolter]

if you play on a team with no sponsorship, a free JT t-shirt is the coolest thing to happen all year. If you play for a team like Dynasty who could pretty much chose (with some talks of course) who's product they want to use. WDP have been very very good to them and although they have gone for a SP product (spits on floor) I'm sure they are extreemly grateful to WDP for all they have done and probably will still do for them.

I wouldn't leave my team mates and buddies for any amount of money.

[JKW]

This is a good topic! Although I would need to give it some thought before I could offer my answers to the questions asked, I would like to add that there are some changes taking place in the coming weeks that are very relevant to this post. Sponsorship changes almost as surpassing as Dynasty/Smart Parts, and manufacturer to retailer associations that people close to the business side of paintball would not have believed possible.
I am going to look forward to the answers given in this thread, and hope that it does not degenerate into a flame war.

[magman007]

listen, despite the deal being really crappy of dynasty to go over to SP, it is natuaral business progression. What happened was a bigleap for the PB industry. These guys are now, the true Professionals of paintball. They now make enough, to not need to Work, and they can actually live off of paintball.

This is a huge leap for the industry, and i wouldnt doubt we start seeing it happen more and more. This would be good

Now, i will admit, the way dynasty did it, wasnt very nice, but you know what, it was bound to happen. Are Sp guns better? Probabally not, alot of people will say they are tho.

So really, it sux that it happened, yet it doesnt in the same time

[abaez]

21 grams.

[Bucky]

$11.43 and not a penny less.

[JoyInTheMadness]

Well for Dynasty it's $75000 a marker...

[G-Rock]

Originally posted by JKW
This is a good topic!

Yeah somtimes my mind comes up with some good stuff for conversation, now if only I could do that on a date so I could sound smart to a woman!!

chris

[BTAutoMag]

an xmag

[Bolter]

Yeah somtimes my mind comes up with some good stuff for conversation, now if only I could do that on a date so I could sound smart to a woman!!



lol!!

:D

[Wc Keep]

from playing many competitive sports i have learned that loyalty to ones teammates is the greatest thing. i am not in this for money. my teammates are the best teammates a guy can ask for.it is not easy to gain my loyalty but once you have ill back you til the end as long as you dont break my trust for something as stupid as a sponsorship. never should the almighty dollar be put before a brother.

going from one sponsor to another.........
i shoot an agd marker, i am getting a cocker in 2 weeks, after i get that cocker im getting another agd marker one month afterwards. agd has shown loyalty to me so i in some way or another am going to show loyalty to them.

[Rope a Dope]

http://home.pacbell.net/zoraks/dynasty.jpg

[Halliday]

I show my loyalty to whomever shows it to me. If AGD sponsered me, and took care of me I'd do the same to them.

[Big_Chops]

my soul a fully hooked up angel speed. ahhhhhhh so nice

[Lohman446]

What has happened here has changed paintball entirely. At this point, Dynsaty can recruit/hire the best players out there, and with the ability to concentrate on paintball they should be able to dominate over any non-professional team. I expect now, that you will see a few more teams accomplish the same thing quickly, as having a team is the next "cool" thing for large manufacturers (think Kingman if not Brass Eagle).

That being said I have wondered this, the question goes like this
Would you wipe off a hit
In recball, No.
What if it were a tournament and there was $1,000 on the line?
Maybe...

The fact is, if your morals are open to influence by large sums of money than you have to question how strong they are (I make no judgement in saying this).

I do not think that Dynasty owes anything to WDP - it was a professional sponsorship deal. I am sure terms were spelled out. This was a business deal, clear and simple. Face it, we are down to the point of admitting the best gun is basically whatever you are comfortable with, WDP could not have really expected Dynasty to stay because they felt Angels were superior or whatever. Relationship and moral reasons... I think those who knew Dynasty's reputation (so far as playing) should have known better.

I need to go back and say this, I do not make any of these as a judgement, I do not have the moral authority to judge anyone.

As for the question - the price of my soul is my child. Mess with me, no big deal, mess with my child and all rules about what is right and wrong are out the window.

[Meph]

Comparing a person's very soul to the Dynasty/Smart Parts signing agreement? That's just flat out retarded there Drama Queen.

How about comparing it on the equal of importance. Me deciding if I wanted to have jello or cranberry sauce at the table earlier today. Because both of those matter the same amount.

What amount? Nothing. Dyn using Shockers means nothing. Get over it. Grow up.

[CoFFeY[NiTrO]]

Originally posted by Rope a Dope
http://home.pacbell.net/zoraks/dynasty.jpg




you're just jealous.

[-=Squid=-]

I would appreciate it if some body could verify this. I still think this whole story is BS. Im sure that WDP would just throw dynasty the same offer as SP, after all, who WOULDNT want to sponsor the highest ranking and most marketable team? Besides, the sponsorship with WDP coincides with some of there other stories. Sorry folks, I think its crap. However, knowing my luck there is an official news story on it that I havent seen yet.

EDIT: Just read the PGI story. Screw SP for they have just ruined my favorite team. Wanna know why they were my favorite team? Becuase they were good, AND shot angels. I am a HUGE angel supporter.

[Lohman446]

Meph - did not read the other thread - but I obviously agree with you. I have actually been thinking about the idea for some time, after hearing about all the "rec-ballers don't understand, its ok to cheat in a tournament cause you have to to win and theres money involved" or whatever reasoning you have. Frankly I have to strongly disagree with the idea that this would be a determining factor of morality. Again though, I am no better than anyone here, don't take this as a judgement against you, it is a judgement of my own actions, and a consideration of what I would think acceptable for myself or those representing me.

As to the post of jealousy - I am jealous. I would like to be able to play paintball all the time. That being said I think this marks a turning point in paintball where the "weekend warriors" are going to find themselves falling behind the professional players (maybe not this year or next, but eventually). Face it, those who practice more, and can pay the money to pull in the natural talent to begin with, are going to do better than those that play mostly for fun - or play on a level that does not allow them the practice. I am not going to comment on this being good or bad, eventually things will seperate out and there will still be local/regional/national events - think like the Gus Macker basketball tournament, the NBA players don't play there ( I assume). For now though... well I think if SP is going to do it some other major names will have to.

BTW - my entire feeling on paintball companies sponsor paintball teams - I think its preaching to the choir. I do not beleive it helps move that much more product or increase awareness as much as it would seem to - most people who pay attention to the pros have enough knowledge of paintball to make their own decisions (Please note I may be very wrong here). I expect what you will see is Nike or some such sponsoring a team, and advertising there product in the media because of the "extreme" face of paintball. I think that a) relatively speaking paintball sponsorhips are cheap and b) it would be more efficient in terms of return on dollars spent than what paintball companies have seen.

[maglover52]

ok here is what i heard. dynasty got an offer of 100,000 from smartparts to use there guns and stuff. they asked wdp if they would match that because they would rather be with wdp but wdp didnt have enough money to pay for that so they went to smarparts for the money.

[Python14]

I say all power to em. If they can make money playing ball, good. I know it's always been a dream of mine to have that option. Atleast now it's a little more realistic. I still think it will be a while before we see a big divide. The tournaments are gonna still exsist, which means the folks who play at tournaments and get noticed will get offers from these big bucks teams.

Good for Dynasty.

[G-Rock]

Originally posted by Meph
Comparing a person's very soul to the Dynasty/Smart Parts signing agreement?

Okay just to clear something up....

"what is the price of your soul" is a saying okay.

It is like saying "what about them apples" and you arn't even talking about any type of fruit.

Or "that is how the cookie crumbles" and not even near any cookies or a bakery for that matter.


Originally posted by Meph
That's just flat out retarded there Drama Queen.

Now if you are referring to me, please go back and read the thread okay, the only person freaking out here is you so far. It has been a quite docile.

As for me referring this to the Smart Parts/ Dynasty deal, that was a example. Much like Bad Company did a couple years back with Kingman. Just an example!!

What I was saying is, at what price would you sell out your current sponsors (if you have any) or if you were an individual player, what is the price to sell our your buds on the team?

Chris

P.S. I am not a queen at all this week, my dress is still in the shop okay, but next week I am free for a date there Meph!!

[Lee]

i'm not a tourney ball follower per say, but i did make an observation between last years world cup and this years.

last year, wdp had a big old display area, beach sand, music, wimmen etc.
this year, they had a nice, but basic booth.

smart parts (both years) has had 2 tractor trailers, tarps, a spacious hang out area, and a bus for team strange.

i don't think wdp can compete with an offer from smart parts. i don't think they have the $$.

i could be totally wrong, but thats what i saw when i walked around the cup the last 2 years. smart parts got bigger, wdp got smaller.

[Sir_Brass]

Originally posted by maglover52
ok here is what i heard. dynasty got an offer of 100,000 from smartparts to use there guns and stuff. they asked wdp if they would match that because they would rather be with wdp but wdp didnt have enough money to pay for that so they went to smarparts for the money.

That's showing that they are loyal to the almighty coin than to those who supported them.

If I was in that position, I would've stayed with WDP. It's not like dynasty had any problems with what WDP sent them. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Well, they're trying to fix something that was running great. Good job, dynasty, just goes to show y'all have more greed than loyalty.

I won't sell out my friends and compatriots for ANY amount of money. The only time I'd turn on them would be if they changed for the worse and started going against what I hold to be moral and ethical. And even then I wouldn't do it for money, but for ethics and morals.

You offer me money to sell out my true friends and comrades, and I'll take that money and burn it in front of your face, then go continue on with my friends.

[shartley]

I think some folks just don’t look at things realistically.

Loyalty…. To what? When a Sponsor pays you with money or product so that you can play under their flag, you were not given these things because they really “liked” you personally. It is a relationship that hinges on business. Friendships MAY be involved, but that is not the real reason people sponsor players.

If a pro ball player (football, baseball, basketball) is at the end of his contract and another team offers to pay him substantially more money, would he be “selling out” or being “ungrateful” to his current team if he took the better offer? Well, that would all depend now wouldn’t it? ;)

Heck, let’s bring it down to Joe and Bob Smith’s level. Joe and Bob have worked for company A for 5 years making $15.00 and hour. They have good benefits and the company has treated them well. Joe gets an offer to work for company B for $20.00 an hour with good benefits. If Joe chooses to leave company A for B, is he ungrateful? Is he “selling out”? Is he being “disloyal”?

Now me…. I would call Joe a fool if he didn’t go with the new company. And even more if the prospects for being with company B would potentially allow him to make even MORE money with even MORE benefits in the future.

Sure, it is easy to sit back and say things like “I would NEVER do that!” or “I don’t care what they offered me, I would consider my loyalty to the original company more important.” Etc. when you are NOT being offered that. LOL I have seen people stab others in the back for an 8% raise or a small promotion. And when you are thinking of paying your bills, feeding yourself or your family, etc. things can change pretty darn quick when given the opportunity to advance, or make more money.

And sorry folks, that does not make anyone EVIL, or that they are ungrateful for those whom they have worked for or with. Just wait until NONpaintball companies start sponsoring teams….. Microsoft, Pepsi, etc. (just examples)…. I can hear the screams already….. ;)

[LaW]

Perfect post shartley

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by shartley
Loyalty…. To what?

My god I agree completely with Shartley!:eek:

Look, it's unethical and unproffesional to break a contract. If no contract is broken, then it is only disloyal or underhanded if you don't give your current relationship fair warning. Seems I heard that dynasty asked or the same deal from their other sponsers and they refused to match or better the conditions.

Previous sponser stops paying them, team stops promoting their products. Both have lived up to their side of the bargain.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by LaW
Perfect post shartley

I agree. I work for the person that pays me the best money primarily... But I chose sometimes to not take the most if the conditions are not the best. So I just hope they got someone to look at the contract before they signed it that was concerned with thier interest. They didn't sell their soul. They took a job offer. Simple as that.

But I hope they realize its a job now and they may have to do what their sponsors expect them to do more than they were used to. As long as they realize with the money comes responsibility and they now may not always get everything their way, then great. Good for them! They did what any of us would do and took the job that offered the most money.

[magman007]

I agree that this all makes sence, the suing of ICD, Gaining of team dynasty, it is all natural progression of business. the only thing is that, the way dynasty left WDP was rotten.

No warning signs, etc. Now wdp wouldnt match the deal, so dynasty left, i understand that, but they were shady and ashamed of their move, they mush have been, because they did it so sheepily.

Also, while sp is a big company, you must admit, that their business products are a little awry. Things like their markers, that are made with low grade aluminum, and the quality control, is not what i would expect from such a large company.

[LaW]

Originally posted by cphilip




But I hope they realize its a job now and they may have to do what their sponsors expect them to do more than they were used to. As long as they realize with the money comes responsibility and they now may not always get everything their way, then great. Good for them! They did what any of us would do and took the job that offered the most money.


This is exactly what I feel. This will go for all the future teams that get this kind of job as well and it will happen.

[shartley]

Originally posted by LaW



This is exactly what I feel. This will go for all the future teams that get this kind of job as well and it will happen.
And I agree as well. And no more blaming bad behavior and cheating on "pressures" and such. If you are up to this level of play and this level of sponsorship, then act like the Professionals they are being PAID to be.

I see this as a good thing for paintball at this level.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by shartley

And I agree as well. And no more blaming bad behavior and cheating on "pressures" and such. If you are up to this level of play and this level of sponsorship, then act like the Professionals they are being PAID to be.

I see this as a good thing for paintball at this level.

Ah well thats another interesting twist there... Good only if we are assuming the Sponsor (employer) feels he wants honesty and integrety as a benchmark for emplyoee's rather than winning at all cost! There is the Ricky isn't it? Remains to be seen. Let's hope so.

[LaW]

Originally posted by cphilip


Ah well thats another interesting twist there... Good only if we are assuming the Sponsor (employer) feels he wants honesty and integrety as a benchmark for emplyoee's rather than winning at all cost! There is the Ricky isn't it? Remains to be seen. Let's hope so.


Oh man winning at all costs was the whole smart parts thing of past as well you have to be worried about that and keeping the integrity of a "professional" team. The AA's were known as huge cheaters years ago, that is what I remember at least I could be wrong.

[shartley]

Originally posted by cphilip


Ah well thats another interesting twist there... Good only if we are assuming the Sponsor (employer) feels he wants honesty and integrety as a benchmark for emplyoee's rather than winning at all cost! There is the Ricky isn't it? Remains to be seen. Let's hope so.
This is VERY true. And I want to remain optimistic on this one. What happens in the board room and what happens in the public eye can often be much different. You don’t have to show good “sportsmanship” in business, but on the playing field it goes a LONG way.

I can’t wait until it becomes more like auto racing…. It is important to WIN, but it is more important to PLACE consistently. And in fact, if a driver and sponsor plays it right, they can make more money and get more exposure simply being in the top 3-5 than by trying to outright win every race.

And I still look forward to the day when a major non-paintball company sponsors their own team (as a total sponsorship, not an added sponsor). I don’t think this has happened yet, has it? Did anyone slip under my radar?

[cphilip]

Well see? There is a general assumption that a Paintball Sponsor would be more interested in integrety than in winning. I have seen little evidence of that lately from some of them. And in fact I am very concerned they will not be the emphasis. If they are not then taking a team and paying them well to win at all costs to include cheating... and then that same team gets looked up to by all the new kids in Paintball...well you can see how bad THAT would be for Paintball?

Now on the other hand if they manage them as carefull honest role models and then people see not cheating and being good without it pays then its WONDERFULL.

But no one knows which way this is going to go. So lets not proclaim it a great day in Paintball until we see how both sides of that new marrage behave.

[LaW]

Originally posted by cphilip
Well see? There is a general assumption that a Paintball Sponsor would be more interested in integrety than in winning. I have seen little evidence of that lately from some of them. And in fact I am very concerned they will not be the emphasis. If they are not then taking a team and paying them well to win at all costs to include cheating... and then that same team gets looked up to by all the new kids in Paintball...well you can see how bad THAT would be for Paintball?




Unfortunately it is already becoming evident that this "cheating" thing is being accepted by younger people. I have seen more posts lately by younger people on the topic of cheating saying along the lines that if you were hit off the break or at a crucial time and could slide into a bunker to wipe you would do it. Or along the whatever it takes to win you would wipe/cheat whatever. And I am really disturbed by hearing this and there is nothing you can say to these kids to change their mind it seems.

[cphilip]

Exactly! And half the responses here we see are "everyone does it". And so what negative publicity is generated to a Sponsor if they cheat? Not much. Not like other sports. The problem here is we have sponsors generating the ethics now. Not a strong leauge that can administer disipline. Paintball is not ready for the big time in this respect because it has not Teeth outside of greed. It is totaly open to being taken to a place that kills it. We need a strong league with rules in place to counter that. Like other sports do. And without it we are at the mercy of the integrety of Paintball Companies. I do not think there is that much of it there to tap. If I was a Paintball Company, and I can sell you stuff because I got the meanest nastiest ugly cheaters on the block... I am going to. And there is not much there to stop me as it is. Take a look at Football or Basketball. If I as a League ban somone for cheating or drugs his sponsors fall away from him as fast as they can. In paintball they may RUN TO THEM. Totaly not ready for this. And thats my concern.

[Lohman446]

As for being optimistic about this...

SP has not, in the past, shown that they are for advancing the sport of paintball, they have shown they are for advancing there own business. Now I make no judgement if this is right or wrong, they are probably going to outlive a good number of companies that looked towards advancing the sport and not towards their own business. I also make no claim that this is necessarily true, just a possibility.

Now take Dynasty - face it, the reputation that they have is winning at all costs. Again I do not personally agree, but they have gotten somewhere where many people want to be first. They succeeded at that at least.

Somehow I don't see a relationship that brings up sportsmanship as a great moral example in the works here.

The other side of the coin, from people who would "wipe". They compare it to holding in football, or fouls in basketball. While I do not agree with this, there is a reasonable line of logic behind it. How many professional football teams would not hold, chop block, (whatever the hell the other football penalties are), in order to win.

It still comes back to the same point, regardless of your moral opinion on the entire issue I do not see this relationship being about anything more than winning.

[JKW]

Ok, great discussion!
To put a little perspective on Dynasty's deal, here is some info that may or may not be known. I heard that Dynasty approached a MAJOR force in the paintball scene with a marker sponsorship request/proposal that is reported to be very close to the Smart Parts deal. This other entity wanted Dynasty to also include their new clothing line (and maybe their barrels? ) in the deal but Dynasty wanted to pursue, or was locked into, another deal for a clothing sponsor, and passed. Now, I have heard that this "other" marker was Dynasty's first choice for what they wanted to be shooting next season, already having some components from these markers grafted into several of their Angels. But still, they passed. I think that (remember this is speculation on my part) Dynasty knew that the answer to continued success was to be better prepared through constant devotion to paintball, with as few outside distractions as possible. By being smart enough to go for the money that might support a full time commitment to playing and training, Dynasty goes a step towards legitimizing paintball in general. They have raised the bar, and if their plan is a success, other sponsors will have to step up and figure out a way to have their teams compete. If they cannot afford to support a team at this level they will either be forced to bow out, step up the exposure (more mainstream avenues maybe?) or quality of their products to increase sales, or look to co-sponsor with someone that has deep pockets. Heck, this could be the first step in bringing that non paintball sponsor we would all love to see. I mean, how much of a burden would it be on Pepsi to co-sponsor a full time NXL team with National? Not much. Please do not flame me. I know none of the Dynasty players and can not speak for them. I am only remarking on what I have heard and seems reasonable. And remember, this is just my take.

As far as cheating goes. Less cheating will not be what creates the mass exposure for paintball. I think rather that it is the other way around. As tournament paintball becomes more legit, cheating will begin to drop off I think. One had to only attend a NXL event to see the difference a more professional approach to managing cheating makes. While it may be more evident from the pit areas, with the teams (where I was fortunate enough to be), blatant cheating is becoming something that is frowned upon. I heard players and coaches screaming at their teammates over penalties levied for rule infractions. I heard, more than once, things like, "THIS IS THE NXL!! YOU CAN'T GET AWAY WITH THAT CRAP HERE!! Does it still happen? Sure. Are the rules still bent to their maximum? Sure. But teams are not nearly as willing to take the risk and play down a man (for up to ten minutes!), nor are individual players as quick to make a decision that might bring the entire team down on their heads. Again, just my take.:)

[Sir_Brass]

I agree with that. The next major step in legitimizing paintball is to make it so that the leagues are the ones in control. A strong league who only uses independant, trained, AND QUALIFIED refs who will be fined and penalized for intentionally overlooking rule infractions (just like in other pro sports), AND a policy of strict regulation enforcement will be what solidifies the sport. You HAVE to have a strong league and strong rules to adhere to for people to start taking the sport seriously. I mean, if pball gets legitimized, we'll have more TV coverage, and we'll soon see armchair refs like we do in soccer, football, etc., and if these fans see rule infractions overlooked on a regular basis or just bad behavior instead of the sport, they're eventually going to get sick of watching and just turn on the hockey game.

For pball to be legit, we have to have a league that is in control of it's teams and ensures fair and professional play.

I saw the x-ball video yesterday and saw JUST that: professional paintball. Boy was I IMPRESSED! I saw the 300 FPS preview video and I saw was immature, unsportsmanlike conduct. Guess which video I thought showed real professionals ;). Yup.

The way I see it, the NXL will be the first legit (in the public eye) paintball league. The NXL seems to be on the road to outside cosponsorship faster than the NPPL by far, and will be until the NPPL cleans up it's act and starts to emulate the things that the NXL is doing right.

[G-Rock]

I will have to agree with JKW on this also.

Chris

PS...it will be interesting to see what the new products coming out for the timmys are...

[50 cal]

Just call it natural progression.
When you get good enough, you can call your own shots, and that's what Dynasty did. I say "More power to them". If they can do it and had enough time and effort to get to that level, no one should rain on their parade.
They made time to practice, practice, practice. Sure they had sponsors, so do a lot of other teams. Other teams just lack the dedication that Dynasty has to mke it where they are now.

Now if they can just quit acting like 5 year olds when they don't get thier way. Maybe paintball can become mainstream. I don't see it happening though, too many hot heads that like to cuss, throw thier guns and stupid crap like that.

Off my soapbox now. Back to our regularly scheduled program already in progress.

[50 cal]

Originally posted by LaW



The AA's were known as huge cheaters years ago, that is what I remember at least I could be wrong.

I was a head ref for Jim Lively at the Masters that was held in Nashville for years. The AA's were the worst for "bending the rules". When you called 'em on it, you got the wide eyed "Gee, I didn't know" looks. It was pretty comical. I always gave the max penalty for major rules violations. As a matter of fact, Bob Long hated to be on my field also!
You have to rule with an iron hand as a head ref, I held no affiliation to any teams at the time, so I didn't care what they thought of me. Sponsors of tourneys shouldn't let teams ref together. Sure they know each other and work together, but it's bad news to have them ref as a unit. I've had ref teams split apart because they were on the same team. It caused a lot of flak to me, but then again.....I DIDN'T CARE. They don't come home with me, or help me pay my bills. That is the way reffing should be done.

Sorry to get off topic.

[Sir_Brass]

You have to rule with an iron hand as a head ref, I held no affiliation to any teams at the time, so I didn't care what they thought of me.


Paintball needs to have ALL it's refs be like that: independant, iron fisted, and impartial. You know pball refs are doing a good job once the jokes about refs start flowing. Just think about the jokes and jives umpires in baseball get, or the stuff done to refs by mascotts at bball games (the gags and such). It's b/c people hate to get caught doing something they shouldn't, but that's what a ref's JOB is. And on the whole, people appreciated it: when the opposing team violates a rule and the ref calls them on it, everyone loves the ref, but when the ref does the same to their team when their team violates a rule, then they hate the ref. Not really, but the jokes start to fly.

I don't see that in pball, and it concerns me, b/c it tells me that refs aren't doing a good job on the whole. However, if you hire them and pay them to be independant, iron fisted and anal on the rules, then make sure ref's get punished for overlooking violations (like in other pro-sports), then pball will begin to be more credible.