Possible Resolution to the 3.2 Problem. [Archive]

AGD

12-03-2003, 06:30 PM

Owners with 3.2,

There have been complaints from some users of the new software that the gun fires multiple times. These guns also have the characteristic that with the air off, you can pull the trigger half way and hear the solenoid ticking full auto. In most cases when you air up the gun it no longer fires multiple times but in a few guns it still gets out a couple shots.

We do not have a programer here since its on the way to Texas and we only have one gun in house with 3.2. This gun does not shoot multiple times with air but does do full auto ticking with air off. I am ASSUMING that they are related problems.

Our electronic test equipment shows that the HES is actually activating for each shot in "air off" full auto. After trying everything I removed the solenoid from the grip but left the wires hooked up... the problem went away. Next I reversed the wires to the solenoid and reinstalled it and the problem was gone.

So AT THIS MOMENT it APPEARS that the engergized solenoid has magnetic polarity. Hooked up one way it activates the HES since the HES is only sensitve to one end of a North South magnet. Hooked up in reverse the HES never sees it. This makes sense from what we are seeing, some guns work fine some don't depending on the luck of the solenoid wires.

I only have one gun and now it works. If any of you are having this problem and are talented with a soldering iron, try reversing the solenoid leads and report back here. I can't go any farther at this point.

Thanks

AGD

Update: I just fixed Mannys gun that was doing the same thing. Looking good now!

cphilip

12-03-2003, 06:37 PM

Will do tomorrow. And report back. Interesting theory!

LudavicoSoldier

12-03-2003, 06:45 PM

That makes sense...interesting.

12-03-2003, 06:48 PM

big EMF activating HES?

cledford

12-03-2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by AGD
Owners with 3.2,

There have been complaints from some users of the new software that the gun fires multiple times. These guns also have the characteristic that with the air off, you can pull the trigger half way and hear the solenoid ticking full auto. In most cases when you air up the gun it no longer fires multiple times but in a few guns it still gets out a couple shots.

Mine is having this exact issue. It will still "double-tap" when fired with air and paint - but you have make it. Basically if I pull the trigger to mid travel and hold it there while slowing working it back and forth it'll double for sure. If I fire real slow it'll double once in a while. If I just pull and release It shoots fine. In no-air it will click away (when held at mid-point) until you let go.

I'm hitting the sack soon, hopefully tomorrow I'll get a chance to give it a try.

-Calvin

BlackVCG

12-03-2003, 07:27 PM

I just proved it on a Morlock board. More later...

Bulldog

12-03-2003, 08:19 PM

I've got this issue on my X, but I have the 2.1 software...

cphilip

12-03-2003, 08:34 PM

Random polarization...random problem. I do not know what about 3.2 would show it up but I can see it entirely possible on any emag. The fact it was noted on 3.2 first might just be coincidence. And we have had random reports of them doing it in Emags too. Few but still could be. Same Selenoid and same HES right there next to it.

ah137

12-03-2003, 08:37 PM

Tom, I switched the solenoid wires, GONE, Problem fixed!

Good job

Hills

Miscue

12-03-2003, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
Random polarization...random problem. I do not know what about 3.2 would show it up but I can see it entirely possible on any emag. The fact it was noted on 3.2 first might just be coincidence. And we have had random reports of them doing it in Emags too. Few but still could be. Same Selenoid and same HES right there next to it.

I think it's because the shot buffer, etc... is picking up that problem that didn't show up with older software.

cphilip

12-03-2003, 08:43 PM

That would exagerate the effect wouldn't it? So but still there might be some, but some less effect, on any emag. depending on how sensitive the HES was to the effect? And we know they somewhat random too. Nice!

Miscue

12-03-2003, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
That would exagerate the effect wouldn't it? So but still there might be some, but some less effect, on any emag. depending on how sensitive the HES was to the effect? And we know they somewhat random too. Nice!

Well, I think the older software didn't bother looking at the trigger until the ROF dwell time expired, which exceeds the solenoid dwell time by far. So, the solenoid turns off and stops interfering well before it starts to look at the trigger again.

Potatoboy

12-03-2003, 08:56 PM

Jon called me right after you told him about doing two guns.

I did one of the x's at the shop and it works fine!

This looks like it could be the fix.

pbzmag

12-03-2003, 09:37 PM

After reading this thread, I decide to try to see if I could get my X to go full-auto. Right now I have ver 2.4. Well, it did go full auto when I slowly pulled the trigger and held it at the spot it starts to go full-auto. This is without air. I would try it with air but I used up my scuba when I was tweaking my trigger. The spot is small but it's there. If I fully pulled my trigger back, it would only fire one. Version 3.2 may just be amplifying that problem. But I really don't know. I will try switching the solinoid wires and try it out.

Tunaman

12-03-2003, 09:39 PM

Just did Icoms' Emag to 3.2. Full auto. Switched solenoid wires...gone. Kudo's TK...;) :D

thecavemankevin

12-03-2003, 09:45 PM

oddly enough, i think i use to have the problem with 2.4 that i use to have in my X where when playing with the trigger w/air off i could here it go full auto.

however, now with 3.2 i can't get it to do it (buff at 6). Also i did install one of the new LT3 triggers so perhaps this might have a little bit to do with the lack of the f/a. perhaps not. but i do recomend the trigger....its great!

Wynken

12-03-2003, 09:46 PM

So... basically whether you bounce or not comes down to the whim of whoever soldered them to the board? 50/50 chance I guess. Hard to tell which white wire is which, eh?

ICOM

12-03-2003, 09:55 PM

Tuna you rock! i owe ya one :)

funkmunky56

12-03-2003, 10:37 PM

Bah... tato didn't solder a darn thing. His big ol' meathooks couldn't sweat plumbing without makin' a mess. I just happened to show up for my paycheck, with my full toolbox, right when Jon called to ask Tato to check out xmags...

HUTTAH!!! The Truth reigns supreme! --Teh Dizzo

Potatoboy

12-03-2003, 10:43 PM

!
I am ruined!

Schnitzel

12-03-2003, 10:44 PM

well my board was replaced under warranty about 6 months ago...we'll have to see if this will affect me or not.

BTW: does anybody know if AGD will be flashing at vegas panam?

Miscue

12-03-2003, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Schnitzel
well my board was replaced under warranty about 6 months ago...we'll have to see if this will affect me or not.

BTW: does anybody know if AGD will be flashing at vegas panam?

I have the ability to flash at home, I don't have a laptop though... I can give ya 3.2, not Q1.1...

CoFFeY[NiTrO]

12-03-2003, 10:49 PM

Tom, my XMag is being shipped out to you guys tomorrow(Thursday) for board upgrade, feel free to toy with it/the programming all you want.

JT2002

12-03-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by Tunaman
Just did Icoms' Emag to 3.2. Full auto. Switched solenoid wires...gone. Kudo's TK...;) :D

yeah icom thats some custom EMAG you got :D

Smokee_2_7

12-03-2003, 11:23 PM

Will try to do this tomorrow. . .

I have had this problem since i first got my x-mag. I believe it was shipped to me with 2.1 On monday of world cup, i got the board flashed to 3.0 (i had to leave before 3.2 was available) It still does the full auto clicking with 3.0. I'll post as soon as i find out if it works.

TheBigRaguPB4L

12-04-2003, 12:34 AM

My emag(v1.37) goes full auto without air. I never had any problem with it with air though so i never worried aboot it. Just in case anyone's interested.

RoadDawg

12-04-2003, 01:23 AM

Not sure what going full auto sounds like w/o air but my 1.37v Emag makes a lot of clicks at one spot. I'm assuming this is one in the same. I haven't been able to find it in a while but I'm sure it's still there. Is this by chance similar to the other full autos.

cphilip

12-04-2003, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by RoadDawg
Not sure what going full auto sounds like w/o air but my 1.37v Emag makes a lot of clicks at one spot.

Thats what it sounds like. If you watch the end of the trigger rod right behind the trigger when it is making that sound you would see the end of the rod rapidly moving in and out. But remember there can be other causes of that.

deadeye9

12-04-2003, 12:11 PM

I can't find DB's X-Mag for sale post. Did he remove it? Did this fix his problem? Did he sell it? Hey DB, what's the latest?

cphilip

12-04-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by deadeye9
I can't find DB's X-Mag for sale post. Did he remove it? Did this fix his problem? Did he sell it? Hey DB, what's the latest?

I will speak for DB on this....Its not for sale right now. DB pulled his sale and AGD is exchanging it and when its fixed it will be for sale through AGD. Wait till its done and back on the market. You will be told.

Potatoboy

12-04-2003, 02:04 PM

If anyone is looking for a blue x just like dirty's, PM me.

hitech

12-04-2003, 02:31 PM

I have a question for those of you who swapped the wires on the solenoid. Does it now not "bounce" at a SHBF of zero (0)? If it still does, what do you need to set it at to eliminate "bounce"? Mine will go fullauto at zero, but calms down considerably with a SHBF of 8. I'm trying to decide if I need to "fix" mine. Thanks in advance. :D

cphilip

12-04-2003, 02:34 PM

A few noted an improvement in the problem ones with less BPS settings. Not certain anyone noticed much affect at varying Debounce settings.

Blennidae

12-04-2003, 02:38 PM

Hitech: What version of the software do you have? I have 3.2 and the lowest setting for the SHBF mine has is 4. Just curious.

hitech

12-04-2003, 02:42 PM

I have 3.2. However, I'm not at home, but I seem to remember being able to set it to zero. I'm not sure though. I'll have to check. I do know that I was able to get it to go fullauto with no air at the lowest setting. I'll check tonight.

JT2002

12-04-2003, 02:45 PM

why potatoboy u got 1 for sale?

Potatoboy

12-04-2003, 02:54 PM

did i NOT say pm?

JT2002

12-04-2003, 05:44 PM

ok then pm me :D

Tunaman

12-04-2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by TheBigRaguPB4L
My emag(v1.37) goes full auto without air. I never had any problem with it with air though so i never worried aboot it. Just in case anyone's interested. Please switch the solenoid wires and see if it still does it. Another nail in the coffin would be great. ;)

cphilip

12-04-2003, 06:18 PM

Well I never got to do this one here today. I spent the whole day out in the Freezing rain dealing with a dead Forklift that decided to go down half way through loading a Truck. Truck can't roll cause manifest is inclusive of all items. Half items on half off... no lift gate... stuck!!!!!Finaly got it going and finished loading around dark. I am cold, wet and pissed. Currenly sporting warm dry socks and a Glass of Port. This job is starting to interfer with my fun! Anyway I try again tomorrow.

Yea, I would love to see what some of these other ones do with a switched wires.

Now that being said how many of you kids are gonna think to put a plug in line (instead of hard soldered) and try and be able to switch to FA at a whim with this dangerous new info you got? DON"T YOU DARE!!!!!! :(

felony

12-04-2003, 06:35 PM

AGD..

Just wondering if you had done the tests on my marker..

Should have arrived at your place this morning, the 4th.

LMK if it is fixed and what not :D

dan

FragTek

12-04-2003, 06:59 PM

Heading to the work bench right now... I will report back in a little bith with the status and hopefully a big "THANK YOU TOM U ARE GOD!" :D

Stay tuned!

ChucktheMAGician

12-04-2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
Now that being said how many of you kids are gonna think to put a plug in line (instead of hard soldered) and try and be able to switch to FA at a whim with this dangerous new info you got? DON"T YOU DARE!!!!!! :( Good idea!;)

FragTek

12-04-2003, 07:12 PM

First question, how does the solenoid come apart so that I can access were the wires are soldered to it? Does the top bracket screw off alowing the solenoid to come apart? Or, is it possible to cut the wires and and cross them over w/o even having to bust into the solly? LMK, thx!!!

cphilip

12-04-2003, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by felony
AGD..

Just wondering if you had done the tests on my marker..

Should have arrived at your place this morning, the 4th.

LMK if it is fixed and what not :D

dan

Everyone in the back is gone from AGD for events. Roman is gone too. They be back Monday. Tom tuesday. So no its not been touched if it got there today. Monday maybe.

cphilip

12-04-2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by ChucktheMAGician
Good idea!;)

I am evil that way... ;)

RoadDawg

12-04-2003, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by cphilip

Thats what it sounds like. If you watch the end of the trigger rod right behind the trigger when it is making that sound you would see the end of the rod rapidly moving in and out. But remember there can be other causes of that.

Well I've since removed the trigger rod (by unclipping it at the sear) so I can't see the rod bouncing quickly. Although with the trigger rod in it would "Run Away" in hybrid and never really had a problem in E. By the way I don't trust myself with a soldering iron and a expensive Emag board so I'll let a techy do this for me if it indeed is the fix to the problem.

cledford

12-04-2003, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
Currenly sporting warm dry socks and a Glass of Port.

Darn Cphil, I didn't know you liked port! I love the stuff. Tawnys the best in my book - but I'll drink it all, even if it comes from somewhere like Austrialia ;)

-Calvin

cphilip

12-04-2003, 08:06 PM

Only in the winter Calvin. Out of a Waterford Crystal Sherry glass. Not sure the pattern but an older cut one. I think its the lead that gives it the extra stupor. I currently sippin on a Sandeman Tawny myself though! Sweet and warm.

FragTek

12-04-2003, 08:54 PM

TOM, I LOVE YOU MAN!!!! IT WORKED!!!!

Now tourny legal and ready to tear on some fools! Pix coming soon on how I did it, very simply to say the least, with no soldering required!

Stay tuned.

pbzmag

12-04-2003, 09:48 PM

Well, I just got my scuba fill and tried my xmag aired up to see if I could get mine to go full auto. The answer - yes. It mainly did it when the tank output was set to 1k. It still did it when set to 800 psi but was not as consistant. Mine's does not go full-auto when the trigger is fully pulled. Rather it goes full-auto at a certain point like a sweetspot on a mech retro. If anyone else has version 2.4, you might want to check yours too. I will switch out the solinoid leads as soon as I can get my brothers soldering iron. One question though, if I do the soldering myself, will I be voiding my warranty?

FragTek

12-04-2003, 09:49 PM

3.2 Runaway Solderless Fix Tutorial (http://www.fragtek.com/e-mag/32_fix.htm)

It's not much guys, but it works!!! Check it out, takes about 10 minutes to complete.

I had originally stripped the whole gun down and taken the solly out to do a solder job, and when I got fed up trying to get into the solenoid I said screw and decided to just cross the wires, but it worked!!!

Thanks Tom, you da bomb! :D

cphilip

12-04-2003, 10:12 PM

Nice post Frag! For you scared to soldier guys.

One tip maybe I can see should be added. This is to make sure you mark ONE of your two wires so you can distinguish which is which and you join the opposite ones. Any method would do but do it before you un-soldier or cut them. Like take a marker and mark one with some color on both ends (or even along the entire length of that one). And then make sure the marked wires are not matched up when you rejoin them. that way they are switched for sure. Something along that lines will keep you straight.

FragTek

12-04-2003, 10:16 PM

Thx cphil!

Yes, very good point, I couldn't figure out how to word it correctly on the page :)

I originally had everything stripped out, and had the solly in my hand buy i was too retarded to figure out how to get inside of it to resolder the wires, so i said screw it and did it this way instead :D

Saves a LOT of time this way, as all u hafta do is take off the left grip, w00t! :cool:

RiceRocket

12-04-2003, 11:46 PM

I didn't think there were any problems...j/k Tom.

Actually, down at Cup when Clare and I were chronoing our guns in, I did have a couple instances when the gun ran away. Colin actually fixed the problem, maybe only temporarily, by changing the shots per second down and the run-away never came back.

DiRTyBuNNy

12-04-2003, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by RiceRocket
I didn't think there were any problems...j/k Tom.

Actually, down at Cup when Clare and I were chronoing our guns in, I did have a couple instances when the gun ran away. Colin actually fixed the problem, maybe only temporarily, by changing the shots per second down and the run-away never came back.

MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY! MANNY!
So..who you playin with next year?

cphilip

12-04-2003, 11:53 PM

That will supress it in some markers. But not completely eliminate it.

RoadDawg

12-05-2003, 02:29 AM

lol... I'm still not gonna touch my emags internals til I'm trained to. I finally got the testicals to try and install KayleAGD's on/off switch today but I broke the connector like a dumb arse. Me and electronics don't get along to well when it comes to fixing and repairing.

DiRTyBuNNy

12-05-2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by RoadDawg
lol... I'm still not gonna touch my emags internals til I'm trained to. I finally got the testicals to try and install KayleAGD's on/off switch today but I broke the connector like a dumb arse. Me and electronics don't get along to well when it comes to fixing and repairing.

Well...looks like I'll be in Vegas after all..but just as a spectator..

funkmunky56

12-05-2003, 01:21 PM

Fragtek:

"solderless fix" with butt splices? that is SO ghetto. :p desoldering and resoldering the solenoid leads at the mosfet and positive power lead is EASY, if you've got some experience and a NICE soldering iron with interchangable tips.

Just pickin' on ya. However, seriously, I don't approve of ANYONE attempting to modify their wiring if they don't have electronics experience. The solder joints for the solenoid can be temperamental, and if the would-be DIYer was to place any stress on the connection at the mosfet leg, later on during a string of trigger pulls, the wire could actually pop off, and damage other components on the board. I've seen this happen on THREE seperate occasions to different boards.

BE CAREFUL, EVERYONE!!! --Dave

cphilip

12-05-2003, 02:29 PM

Ok I just finished this one here... This one was really pretty easy to get to go FA once you knew exactly the right spot on the trigger pull. Once you knew it you could do it most every time.

But!

I just switched the wires and now, no matter how hard I try, I get only one click per pull. No can make it muliple shoot at all now.

Amazing really.

It works.

This is a X Mag with 3.2

hitech

12-05-2003, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
This one was really pretty easy to get to go FA once you knew exactly the right spot on the trigger pull.

That is how mine is. With any setting on the shot buffer. The trigger adjustment and the BPS limit seem to effect it also. haven't fixed it yet, but I sure it will work. :D

DiRTyBuNNy

12-05-2003, 02:46 PM

cphilip

12-05-2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by hitech

That is how mine is. With any setting on the shot buffer. The trigger adjustment and the BPS limit seem to effect it also. haven't fixed it yet, but I sure it will work. :D

Its gonna be kind of the luck of the draw if you have it or not. All or nothing. Those of you that have 3.2 and are not seeing any of this, then you got lucky and the wires just happened to be correctly placed. Those that are having problems gotta switch em. No real way to know until you got 3.2 on there! Unless when Tom gets back he can figure out a way to measure which polarity it likes BEFORE install and then install them all that way. But for now its a crap shoot. Some will... some won't.

SlartyBartFast

12-05-2003, 03:16 PM

One of those problems whose solution is painfully obvious. Once you've found a solution.

Large magnetic device next to a switch activated by magnetism. Who'd have guessed that was a problem?:p

cphilip

12-05-2003, 03:18 PM

Well you forget the new software that made it more sensitive had to be thrown in to the eqation. That complicates it considerably... That switch and that magnetic device have always been right there...

1stdeadeye

12-05-2003, 03:33 PM

*knocks on wood*

My X-Mag is perfect with 3.2. It does have an appetite for ball detents though!:(

cphilip

12-05-2003, 08:04 PM

Good discussion starting on this in Deep Blue. While I can see the results of the change and its obvious. It does work and I am convinced now of that... I still not certian we can explain yet WHY it shows with 3.2 more than before with any other emag set up. Go check it out. Black started it...

FutureMagOwner

12-05-2003, 09:16 PM

i think its like i believe either miscue or black said is that the trigger doesnt check on the older versions fast enough for any solinoid interference to register.

my question is if you dont have this problem (like i dont) and you switched them would you get it? just some random pondering. me likes this new version alot as is no need for me to personally test (especially seeing as how i dont have a soldering iron let alone solder...)

jtoothman25

12-05-2003, 09:27 PM

My Emag is fixed, and doesnt go FA any longer. Switching those wires did it..

cphilip

12-05-2003, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner
my question is if you dont have this problem (like i dont) and you switched them would you get it? just some random pondering. me likes this new version alot as is no need for me to personally test (especially seeing as how i dont have a soldering iron let alone solder...)

I would almost bet money on it. If you just happened to get the right wires in the right place to start with then you would not have the problem and if you switch them you would. Thats what we seeing but obviously we not going to tell you to break something thats not broken. Its the luck of the draw if you got em right. They both white wires. And until now no one cared about polarity and the Selenoid will energize ether way you hooked em up. Now we care!

cphilip

12-05-2003, 09:36 PM

Please report software version your switching wires on. Most of you are 3.2 but someone out there is going to do one that is having muliple fire on a previous software version and we want to know if its this or is something else on those. If it does not work for you thats even MORE important to know. Other issues can cause this or similar thing. We need to weed those out.

jtoothman25

12-05-2003, 09:43 PM

Well.. i guess I have 3.2 software....

cphilip

12-05-2003, 09:44 PM

It should say as you boot up first time. Software version should display then. For a minute.

jtoothman25

12-05-2003, 10:14 PM

When i boot mine up, it just says "PORNSTAR"

Wynken

12-05-2003, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by jtoothman25
When i boot mine up, it just says "PORNSTAR"

Tooth... I'm pretty sure you're running Q1.1 or whatever the newest version is. Right?

RoadDawg

12-05-2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy

Well...looks like I'll be in Vegas after all..but just as a spectator..

Same here. I'm going on Saturday morning and leaving Sunday evening. I'll have my Emag just in case there is any secret operations going on. ;) (I know I know I'm getting my hopes up)

EDIT: Even though I'd love to have Q 1.x :D

pbzmag

12-06-2003, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by cphilip
Please report software version your switching wires on. Most of you are 3.2 but someone out there is going to do one that is having muliple fire on a previous software version and we want to know if its this or is something else on those. If it does not work for you thats even MORE important to know. Other issues can cause this or similar thing. We need to weed those out.

I have 2.4 and will try to switch leads this weekend. But before I do it, will I be voiding my waranty? I remembered reading in the Xmag CD that soldering a warp harness will void your warranty.

Wynken

12-06-2003, 06:11 PM

I just switched mine, no more extra shots. I'm running Q1.1

Just another positive data point.

coolcatpete

12-06-2003, 08:02 PM

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaeh
Pete.

Sorry was just watching crank yankers.

Miscue

12-06-2003, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by RoadDawg

EDIT: Even though I'd love to have Q 1.x :D

It looks like it's not going to happen... :( So far it's only been given out for testing purposes... those who have it have been invaluable in providing feedback. However, it will not become available... and I will no longer be giving out Q1.1 to anyone.

JT2002

12-06-2003, 08:50 PM

why? well, you havent heard any complaints, thats got to mean something... :D
why would u want to kill ur software?

Miscue

12-06-2003, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by JT2002
why? well, you havent heard any complaints, thats got to mean something... :D
why would u want to kill ur software?

Because Q1.1 will be obsolete. :D

JT2002

12-06-2003, 10:34 PM

does that mean Q2.0? :D

Miscue

12-06-2003, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by JT2002
does that mean Q2.0? :D

<img src="http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/hal.jpg">

kevdupuis

12-06-2003, 11:45 PM

Can we have a bit of privacy HAL. :eek: ;)

JT2002

12-07-2003, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Miscue

<img src="http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/hal.jpg">
whats that?

sneakyhacker420

12-07-2003, 01:08 AM

camera

Dayspring

12-07-2003, 01:22 AM

Please tell me you're kidding...

That's HAL from 2001:A Space Oddysey.

Kids...

ANYWAY- I had BradAGD do mine at his shop on Thursday. Worked like a charm. We've been doing it at Throwdown this weekend as well. So far, no problems.

MantisMag

12-07-2003, 07:44 PM

does that mean you're pulling the plug?

"daisy... daaaaaisy..."

Smokee_2_7

12-07-2003, 07:55 PM

switched the wires in mine today. workes like a charm. No more 'bouncy' or full auto spot.

Let me point out again that my x mag had this 'spot' on the trigger with its original 2.1 (i think it was .1) software, as well as with 3.0.

Thanks for figuring this one out, tom!

Carl

pbzmag

12-09-2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by cphilip
Please report software version your switching wires on. Most of you are 3.2 but someone out there is going to do one that is having muliple fire on a previous software version and we want to know if its this or is something else on those. If it does not work for you thats even MORE important to know. Other issues can cause this or similar thing. We need to weed those out.

As I reported earlier, I have 2.4 and have FA when pulling the trigger at a certain spot. I changed the solinoid leads over the weekend and have not been able to get FA. Only one-shot-per-pull for the entire length of the trigger pull.

raehl

12-09-2003, 01:05 AM

I have to say that this new software really disturbs me. Shots should NOT be bufferred. If the gun isn't done cycling when you get another trigger event, that event should be discarded, not bufferred - you're effectively shooting the gun when the trigger hasn't been pulled. This is the same thing that caused the shockers to "burst fire" back in 1998 - you'd get more than one trigger event (due to switch boune in that case), the gun would buffer the extra events, and then shoot another shot for each bufferred event after the current cycle was over.

Not as bad, no, but still not right.

- Chris

MantisMag

12-09-2003, 01:28 AM

i had a thought along those lines. i asked about the 3.2 software in another thread (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113016&pagenumber=3) and was told that only one shot is buffered. as long as it stays that way i don't see a problem.

DiRTyBuNNy

12-09-2003, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by raehl
I have to say that this new software really disturbs me. Shots should NOT be bufferred. If the gun isn't done cycling when you get another trigger event, that event should be discarded, not bufferred - you're effectively shooting the gun when the trigger hasn't been pulled. This is the same thing that caused the shockers to "burst fire" back in 1998 - you'd get more than one trigger event (due to switch boune in that case), the gun would buffer the extra events, and then shoot another shot for each bufferred event after the current cycle was over.

Not as bad, no, but still not right.

- Chris

And WAS boards are any different?

raehl

12-09-2003, 02:08 AM

And "something else does it" it is a stupid argument.

- Chris

DiRTyBuNNy

12-09-2003, 02:15 AM

and so is the fact that the paintball world revolves around tournament players...as if most people could care less...but that's not going to change either..

cgrieves

12-09-2003, 07:01 AM

Tsk :rolleyes: I posted ages ago that reversing my HES fixed the full auto problem..... Nobody ever listens to me! ;) :D

cphilip

12-09-2003, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
and so is the fact that the paintball world revolves around tournament players...as if most people could care less...but that's not going to change either..

Sad but true!

Chris,

First of all it does not shoot any more than is pulled. It just records the missed pull and then delivers it. Before it would just skip it. Its still releasing one ball per trigger pull. This is the argument that other marker manufacturers are hiding behind and getting away with for years.

Lets crusade against it but lets first start the crusade by getting all the other marker makers out there to agree to drop it. No ones making a stink about them at all. And AGD is being dragged into keeping up. Were were the cries of foul when all these other markers the Q shots were getting past Crono? No place but here! And if you can't lick em...ya gotta join em. I with you on this Chris but I see no evidence that anyone else is going to do anything about it. It has to start where it began. And this is not where it did.

SlartyBartFast

12-09-2003, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by cphilip
Its still releasing one ball per trigger pull. This is the argument that other marker manufacturers are hiding behind and getting away with for years.

While I can't stand the tournament scene and question the operation of other markers, I think the analysis of the situation by cphilip and Chris is wrong.

Queing a shot or two does not mean that you are shooting before the marker has finished cycling. An Automag cycles at what speed? We've seen it at 30 cps, let's use that figure.

30 cps means the marker has cycled and is ready to fire in 0.03 of a second.

Without queueing, if you have your max rof set at 10, the program would only check the trigger .1 of a second after the first trigger pull. That means any double pull that was quicker that 10/s would result in only one ball fired. In strings of shots, that would mean that that instead of a constant 10 bps, the marker would shoot erratically a much less than 10 bps unless you could inhumanly pull the trigger at an EXACT 10/s.

What is rediculous and needs closer supervision/banning is the recognition of trigger bounce as queued shots.

cledford

12-09-2003, 11:31 AM

The original Shocker turbo mode actually counted switch "bounces" as trigger events and then (I believe) queued those. Every time a switch opens or closes there are several jumps up in down of the voltage, not just one "clean" trigger pull.

It was the counting of these additional "bounces" that got the Shocker in trouble, not the queue I'm guessing.

-Calvin

raehl

12-09-2003, 01:18 PM

Those of the HES sensor being triggerred by the solenoid?

Anyway, I agree that the other boards need to be fixed as well, and I don't fault AGD for competing on equal ground. I just happen to read here and thus know the technical implimentation of AGD stuff and every other product not so much.

- Chris

RRfireblade

12-09-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by cledford
The original Shocker turbo mode actually counted switch "bounces" as trigger events and then (I believe) queued those. Every time a switch opens or closes there are several jumps up in down of the voltage, not just one "clean" trigger pull.

It was the counting of these additional "bounces" that got the Shocker in trouble, not the queue I'm guessing.

-Calvin

That's not how the shocker worked.It's software recognized a certain actual ROF as the point to switch to a preset full auto.WAS uses multiple buffered shots but since his opinions are critical in the rules making decisions, he's able to explain his software in a way to sound legit.He is the ultimate used car salesman.

Typical buffering as in 3.2 is simply a way to allow a reasonable ROF cap that can actually be reached.In order to limit the ROF the software limits the time between recognized trigger pulls.It does so in perfectly spaced time incriments,not possible to be reproduce by human fingers.The buffer just allows for a less then perfectly spaced string of pulls to equal the ROF that was actually pulled.

The far simpler method to acheive this and the one thats becoming more and more common is a theretical max BPS equal to the minimal time between trigger pulls thats ultimately possible.WAS for instance scans trigger pulls 1 mil/per second,and Bushys for instance that have a max of 66.6 or the Morlocks uncappable boards etc.They all accomplish the same thing in the end.No lost pulls the were actually pulled.

Jay.

raehl

12-09-2003, 01:22 PM

Who is making WAS boards that argues that they're legal?

- Chris

Dayspring

12-09-2003, 01:25 PM

Jim Drew

And anybody who's using his board- National for one.

RRfireblade

12-09-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by raehl
Who is making WAS boards that argues that they're legal?

- Chris

The infamous Jim Drew. He also seems to be involved in all the rules discussions governing these issues.

Coincidence?

I think not.

Jay.

TheTramp

12-09-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by raehl
Hrm... you mean bounces like...Those of the HES sensor being triggerred by the solenoid?

No, in fact you'll notice that this entire thread is dedicated to getting rid of these.

The shot buffering is for "real" pulls that are missed.

cledford

12-09-2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by RRfireblade

That's not how the shocker worked.

Jay.

Check out: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/turbo/index.shtml

-Calvin

RRfireblade

12-09-2003, 02:32 PM

That was just his "explanation" at the time.

DiRTyBuNNy

12-09-2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by RRfireblade
That was just his "explanation" at the time.

I'm not going to be the one starting the controversy this time...:D :D :D

SlartyBartFast

12-09-2003, 03:27 PM

What a load of garbage. "Trigger Events". I'll add that I normally hold Bill Mills in high regard, but swallowing the explaination of turbo mode being acceptable like that? PUHLEASE....

Every switching device suffers from bouncing and arcing under certain conditions. That’s why circuits include debounce circuitry or programming when you want the number of switch activations counted/acted on to equal the number of PHYSICAL activations and not the number of phantom activations.

Whether the debounce is accomplished by use of a circuit or as part of the programming, it should NEVER be user adjustable. It should be set by determining the switch characteristics under operating conditions, set, and left. There is no legitimate reason after the initial design phase to adjust debounce.

Honestly, I think queueing and max ROF are great. But the number of queued shots needs to be limited. But even if it is not limited, I don’t see it as a big issue. If you pull 15 shots in a second with a max rof set at 10, does it matter that the gun shoots for 1/2 second after the player stops wailing? As long as it’s one PHYSICAL pull to ONE marker cycle.

Everything to do with bounce though has to be controlled and stopped somehow. It’s the issue of switch bounce and ‘custom’ software that’s the real issue.

There’s nothing stopping everyone that currently uses electronic markers from having their own custom software with the old ‘turbo’ mode thrown in. As long as you pull the trigger at a certain rate, the marker fires at the max rof.

It’s simple for the manufacturers to do it for the factory teams, and it’s a joke for anybody with minor PIC/chip knowledge to do the same for anybody else. Considering paintball’s stellar background when it comes to dissuading cheating, I think I can be relatively certain that such shenanigans are going on undetected all the time. That’s even when we’re all collectively stupid enough to accept the used-car salesman explanations justifying the blurring of the existing rules.

Technical analysis of chip programming and tighter more technical chrony procedures are required to address this scourge. Automated chronograph procedures testing the markers performance under multiple and varying firing scenarios followed by an impound of the marker until the team is in the starting block is undoubtably the only way to go. Or, at a minimum or even in addition to testing and impounding prior to games, an approach similar to F1 and other auto-racing is required. The winning markers are impounded at the end of the tournament to undergo extensive testing and verification. Random more in depth testing of markers throughout the tournament would also serve as a deterrent.

Additionally the testing and monitoring has to be followed up with real teeth. Fines to sponsors and teams, eliminations of teams from tournaments and of players from series.

But the simple fact of the matter is, as long as the noobs and hype slaves buy into the image tournies currently sell nothing will change. For it to change the playing public, who for the majority have no stake what-so-ever in the tournament scene, have to start not putting up with the losers and hot shots at their local fields and have to stop buying magazines and other products supporting the tournament scene. For those in tournaments, they have to stop paying their good hard earned money to top level cheaters through the middleman of incompetent or disinterested tournament organisers and demanding that tournaments they participate in have consistently enforced rules with REAL and ENFORCED consequences.

The problem is that paintball progressed too quickly to huge payoffs. The result is that for the same money, players will sign up for a tournament that offers huge prizes before they sign up for one that promises to be well run and officiated.

Seeing as tournaments can’t even enforce pathetically simple rules against cussing and arguing with refs and penalise teams for violations, I hold very little hope for the sport being recognised as ‘professional’.

Added: With adjustable dwells and other FPS affecting settings being under the control of boards the cheating potential is exponential. How easy would it be to have markers fire hot only under certain conditions to avoid detection by refs?

raehl

12-09-2003, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Honestly, I think queueing and max ROF are great. But the number of queued shots needs to be limited. But even if it is not limited, I don?t see it as a big issue. If you pull 15 shots in a second with a max rof set at 10, does it matter that the gun shoots for 1/2 second after the player stops wailing? As long as it?s one PHYSICAL pull to ONE marker cycle.

Actually, yes. That's a HUGE safety issue. And I believe queueing shots is illegal - if the shot is queued, it's not really the trigger that's causing the gun to fire anymore, it's the board.

The problem is that paintball progressed too quickly to huge payoffs. The result is that for the same money, players will sign up for a tournament that offers huge prizes before they sign up for one that promises to be well run and officiated.

SOME players. I know plenty of players who play well-run tournaments with no prizes.

- Chris

cphilip

12-09-2003, 03:50 PM

LOL! Go gettem Sly! Tell us how ya really feel!

I hear ya brother! :D

Muzikman

12-09-2003, 04:00 PM

Should shot buffering be allowed, noper. But should AGD not do it to set a good example, nope. Paintball has always been about the ROF. Even back in the pump days, they did everything they could to increase the ROF. All the other companies are out there doing it, why not AGD? And if you even ask me the question "If everyone jumped off a bridge would you?" Yes I would, it would be lonely with no one around.

SlartyBartFast

12-09-2003, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by raehl
Actually, yes. That's a HUGE safety issue. And I believe queueing shots is illegal - if the shot is queued, it's not really the trigger that's causing the gun to fire anymore, it's the board.

Well, it's a MINOR safety issue. In the example, it would be 5 more balls in one half second. They wouldn't be any less well aimed than the barely aimed beginning of the string. The REALLY important thing IMO is to get rid of bouncy triggers and illegal software. THAT's when the board is doing ALL the work.

SOME players. I know plenty of players who play well-run tournaments with no prizes.
- Chris

Hmm. Well, in the late 80's I used to play 10 or 20 a side games in the woods with Splatmasters with no refs and if you FELT a hit you called yourself out. These days, when I've gone to fun days I've had to put up with the losers with the thousand dollars markers and the "I'm not out until you drag me kicking and screaming out" attitudes.

Look at the discussions about Skyball as an example. THe entire thread was not about the atmosphere, officiating, or whether any other reason justified cost. It was all about what the prizes were going to be.

Until officiating is a larger hit to the tournament budget than prizes, I doubt anything will change. Paid proffesional refs, with all expenses paid by the tournament.

THEN paintball will be professional. Unless of course we want to be professionals in the same league as olympic figure skating.:p

RRfireblade

12-09-2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
LOL! Go gettem Sly! Tell us how ya really feel!

I hear ya brother! :D

I'll take your word for that Phil,that's to much readin' for me.;)

cgrieves

12-09-2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by raehl

Actually, yes. That's a HUGE safety issue. And I believe queueing shots is illegal - if the shot is queued, it's not really the trigger that's causing the gun to fire anymore, it's the board.

But in an electro marker driven by software, it's never the case that the trigger really fires the marker. It's always a queued shot- the trigger signal registers on one of the signal inputs to the PIC, then when the program cycle finally gets to the appropriate part of the code the marker is fired. So arguably the shot is always a queued one, even if it only takes milliseconds. The latency of the solenoid or firing device separates the trigger signal and the marker firing cycle even further.

So at what point should we define queueing as illegal or unsafe? Until chrono marshalls are qualified to download, disassemble and understand the marker's software I think we'll just have to stick to plain old common sense- i.e. if you pull the trigger and the marker fires two seconds or more later, or two trigger pulls result in three balls fired, then it's a safety issue. On the other hand if the timing of the trigger actuating and the marker firing are indistinguishable to the average human, and you're getting one ball per pull, then I think it's fair to say it's not a safety issue and isn't going to affect the outcome of a game any more than the variations in consistency of the paint, or the colour of the grass.

Common sense, it seems, is the answer to most of our problems, but as soon as you add money and marketing to the equations it is rarely applied.

raehl

12-10-2003, 12:21 AM

I don't expect manufacturers to regulate ROF - that 13 bps "agreement" hit the wayside ages ago. Leagues need to make rules regulating ROF and enforce them.

I suspect that the final solution will be ASTM comes out with a standard requiring a minimum trigger pull force and length, or maybe we force manufacturers to have their software certified and ban uncertified software (which wouldn't be too hard to enforce, you just download what's there and compare it to what's certified - if it doesn't match, it's not legal.)

- Chris

AGD

12-10-2003, 01:13 AM

Well there already IS an ASTM standard against full auto. You see how many manufacturers are following THAT one, even in the face of potentially huge lawsuits.

AGD

Miscue

12-10-2003, 02:04 AM

I figure, PB is controlled by money. It is to manufacturer's interest to allow high speed guns. All of a sudden there is a necessity for high-tech loaders, more money is spent on paint because more paint can be flung, spiffy electronic boards have a purpose, one gun can be made unequal to another with speeds beyond 13... and become popular and sell.

People running tournies, manufacturers... hands in each others pockets... they don't care about the 'sport' of paintball, they just want to make money. This is why we have this bizarre issue where they don't even enforce their own rules... and certain rules become acceptable to break because of precedents set... unwritten rules. I guess it's like offensive pass-interference, wide receivers have been getting away with it forever. :p

They don't have the guts to enforce certain things, because then people might favor another tourny circuit over theirs... or it would go against the interests of those with money... etc.

We're gonna have issues until someone who can do something about it has the cojones to fix the problems... I don't foresee that happening soon.