real 34 CPS video link, not Froth video [Archive]

RRfireblade

12-17-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Barfly
yeah, it is more of a demonstration of a gun cycling that fast. A lot of high end markers can cycle that fast it is just I have only seen this one do it that fast.

Here's 34.7 max.;) Now you've seen 2.:D

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=81197

I'm still not sure why the free cycling of a marker is so exciting,it's pretty much common knowledge that almost all paint guns will free cycle at somewhere between 30-50 cps.I guess it's just me,but I don't find it that special.Now if someone can PROVE that they can PULL anything over 20bps on a legal setup,that would be impressive.And no,on board bps meters or 2 shots over big Red don't qualify as "proof". ;)

Jay.

paintballer7_7_7

12-17-2003, 10:51 AM

HMMMM... I should try that wiht my vibrating pillow. LoL :D

Barfly

12-17-2003, 11:11 AM

thanks for the link to the automag CPS. Also the video quality sucks for the 34 CPS viking vid I posted, but there is nothing wrong with the sound. Both guns sound like they are going about the same CPS too me anyways.

RRfireblade

12-17-2003, 11:18 AM

Keep in mind,the Mag is a mechanical mag,not an Emag as well. :) But as I said,you can cycle anything from a cocker to a spyder at 30cps+.It's really not as big deal as many make it out to be,justs breaks in your new gun faster.;)

Jay.

MagOwnerzRule

12-18-2003, 02:55 PM

that is a stock viking, only a vibrator attached:D
The mag is tweaked and crap with runaway mode, viking can do that without ANY tweaking

FreshmanBob

12-18-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Miscue
Hurm... it's as impressive as a spring going back and forth at 34Hz, or watching how fast a car's wheels can spin when lifted off the ground.

:p

It's not just a spring, its an entire system. It means more than just cycling that fast, but that the LPR can recharge quickly enough, the ram can move fast enough and the valve can recharge quickly enough, as well as the noids being able to do that.

It's more like a car being able to go 120 mph when the most you'll be using it for is probably around 75 or 80.

FreshmanBob

12-18-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Army
Another sound graph from a bedroom video...yeah, that'll be accurate.

The only way the acoustics of a room will effect the graph is reverberation, or echo's. Naturally, the original sound bouncing off a wall and comming back to the mic will be much quieter, and will make a much smaller peak on the graph. Thats why you can count the largest peaks and not all the small ones as cycles.

Unless somehow, his room contains the ability to reverberate the sound at the same volume it was originally (which I think is impossible), then it should be accurate.

RRfireblade

12-18-2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by RRfireblade

I'm still not sure why the free cycling of a marker is so exciting,it's pretty much common knowledge that almost all paint guns will free cycle at somewhere between 30-50 cps.

The mag is tweaked and crap with runaway mode,

Nope, just missing 1 o-ring,any R/T valve could do it just as easily.

Unless somehow, his room contains the ability to reverberate the sound at the same volume it was originally (which I think is impossible), then it should be accurate.

That's not the problem, the problem is when the audio quality is so "cluttered" you can not distinquish the shot signature from everthing else in order to read it.

Jay.

FreshmanBob

12-18-2003, 04:26 PM

who says its common knowledge? I've never heard that. Show me a video or sound analysis of an ir3, LCD angel, bushmaster, spyder, defiant, LCD trix, WGP stock autococker and omen doing somewhere between 30 and 40 bps and I'll beleive you.

RRfireblade

12-18-2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by FreshmanBob
who says its common knowledge? I've never heard that. Show me a video or sound analysis of an ir3, LCD angel, bushmaster, spyder, defiant, LCD trix, WGP stock autococker and omen doing somewhere between 30 and 40 bps and I'll beleive you.

There out there,even a spyder type blowback can cycle in the upper 30's,Angels have been shown to,Mags obvously,cockers etc, it's just not that big a deal.

Keep in mind,we're talking about free cycling,not the ability to fire a paintball with any amount of consistancy.

Jay.

Jack & Coke

12-18-2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by RRfireblade

Nope, just missing 1 o-ring,any R/T valve could do it just as easily.

That's not the problem, the problem is when the audio quality is so "cluttered" you can not distinquish the shot signature from everthing else in order to read it.

Jay.

RRfireblade is correct!

Good post...

FreshmanBob

12-18-2003, 06:59 PM

I've never actually seen an analyized sound file of a spyder to show that its in the 30s when going full auto, and angels have been shown too? I haven't seen a video have you?. If you actually have then send me a link. The ir3 and LCD boards aren't even programmed for that high, and the speed is advertised as 30 cps for a max and I've never even seen a video of that.

Only heavily modified and tweeked turtle cockers or other similar designs can cycle in the upper 30s and 40s, i said WGP. Any other e-cocker maxs out in the 20s.

I know we're talking about cycling and not firing a ball, there really aren't that many markers that can come close to 40 cps. All that I can think of are a viking with the LPR raised and a turtle cocker.

RRfireblade

12-18-2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by FreshmanBob
I've never actually seen an analyized sound file of a spyder to show that its in the 30s when going full auto, and angels have been shown too? I haven't seen a video have you?.

Yeah,I've analyzed quite few,not only videos but markers in person(both owned and otherwise).I don't have any links though and you don't have to believe me,it's not that important.

If you check around a little,you'll find it's true.Search for Nerobro,I think he had posted some spyder/dragun data showing 30-40 cps.Osiris cockers are in the 40's,Imps,Angels and Timmys are all basically the same function and will go 30+.I think the cycle time on a typical blowback is like 20-25ms,you can do the math from there.

The reason you don't see it a lot,is most people don't know how to make them go that fast beside pulling the trigger.Could you have made a Mag go that fast if you didn't know how it was done? Didn't think so. ;)

Sorry,I just took all my meds for the night and don't have the energy to go on a fact finding mission tonite.If you don't believe me,that's ok. I'll get over it.:D

Jay.

Maybe some one else will chime in on the subject.

coolcatpete

12-18-2003, 09:16 PM

I dont know if this is stupid comment or not, but we will never know if these are full cycles that will all fire the ball (if there was a ball in there) the same, at the same velocity, so we can not really judge something until you see a consistant stream of paint comeing from this marker. I am not sure if this makes sence. I know when a marker is running out of air it will it cycle all the way, so that means that there is not enough air going through the whole system, how do we know that the right amount of air is flowing through all of these system that we see at 36cps.
How? Pete

Ps. sorry if that did not make sence but it did in my head so don't make fun of me.

Barfly

12-18-2003, 09:19 PM

this is just my thought, but since it is possible for the viking to cycle faster than 34 cps, would imply that it is making full cycles.

Branchvillian

12-18-2003, 09:30 PM

I know how to do it, but I am not sure if I can do it on an E-mag. I would assume so, on mechanical mode. Someone wanna clear this up for me?

RRfireblade

12-18-2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by coolcatpete
I dont know if this is stupid comment or not, but we will never know if these are full cycles that will all fire the ball (if there was a ball in there) the same, at the same velocity, so we can not really judge something until you see a consistant stream of paint comeing from this marker.

That's pretty much true.You can make an assumption based on theory,but I'm not sure you could be 100% accurate without a live firing test.

I know how to do it, but I am not sure if I can do it on an E-mag.

Do what exactly?

Jay.

Branchvillian

12-18-2003, 09:57 PM

Get it to full auto fire with removing the o-rings.

Barfly

12-18-2003, 10:02 PM

which o-rings are you talking about? I am autoretarded

coolcatpete

12-18-2003, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Barfly
this is just my thought, but since it is possible for the viking to cycle faster than 34 cps, would imply that it is making full cycles.

I dont think you understand what I am saying and it is this. How do we know that 34cps are full cycles with out paint and recording the velocity, this can be for any gun even a viking. Notice how AGD advertises x-valve only at 26 cps and not 34cps, my guess for why they did this is because how do they really know about 34cps with out paint.

danheneise

12-18-2003, 11:05 PM

note to self: don't keep headphone volume all the way up when about to view a marker video, owwww, my head is still hurting from that.

i still just don't get why people possibly need THAT much speed when one shot gets a person out. but i do love being over shot by a 20+ bps marker :rolleyes:

Barfly

12-18-2003, 11:10 PM

well lets say that it takes a marker to make one complete cycle t=.02 sec, well CPS=(1sec)/t, so 1/.02=50. Thus you will get at the max 50 full CPS, that is the gyst. Now there could be other factors that come into play at that rof, but I aint been born with smarts, so I just make some crap up and hopefully you beleive it.

Barfly

12-18-2003, 11:16 PM

There isn't really a point in haveing a marker that can cycle over 30cps. It is just for bragging rights,.

RRfireblade

12-18-2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by coolcatpete

I dont think you understand what I am saying and it is this. How do we know that 34cps are full cycles with out paint and recording the velocity, this can be for any gun even a viking. Notice how AGD advertises x-valve only at 26 cps and not 34cps, my guess for why they did this is because how do they really know about 34cps with out paint.

I can only speak for the Mag at those rates.

AGD has only tested them to 26bps with out shootdown,based on the recharge rate of the regulator(a known value),it may well go beyond that but it has not been physically tested to do so,at least I haven't done so.As far as full cycles,the O-Ring trick to full auto is definitely full cycles.We can tell this because it discharges the dump chamber(full forward travel) and when the trigger is released,the sear catches the bolt(full rearward travel).That is much harder to tell on other mechanisms due to thier design.WAS claims to use eyes placed at both extremes of the bolt travel to test this but who knows if he really does that.You could possible record and time a single cycle and then compare those times to the cycle times at the higher ROF but that would take some really precise recording although I guess it could be done.

As many have stated before(incuding me),it really means nothing in the real world of paintball but as far as marker bragging goes,what else do you have?

Anyway,whatever.

Jay.

Miscue

12-19-2003, 03:40 AM

Originally posted by FreshmanBob

It's not just a spring, its an entire system. It means more than just cycling that fast, but that the LPR can recharge quickly enough, the ram can move fast enough and the valve can recharge quickly enough, as well as the noids being able to do that.

It's more like a car being able to go 120 mph when the most you'll be using it for is probably around 75 or 80.

You read it too deep... Ok, then how about a guitar string vibrating at 35Hz? :p

FreshmanBob

12-19-2003, 12:31 PM

It's a little cooler than that =p

danheneise

12-19-2003, 01:56 PM

what is this little o-ring trick you guys speak of?

DK1

12-19-2003, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by RRfireblade
That's not the problem, the problem is when the audio quality is so "cluttered" you can not distinquish the shot signature from everthing else in order to read it.

Jay.

I dunno, maybe it's just me but I can pick out the shots just fine with goldwave. I generally slow down the sound to a point where I can count with it, and mark off a full second. That way I have a resonably enough accurate guess at how fast it's going. Do that to three or four spots, and I'd say that you can get pretty accurate, even with all the clutter.

The initial shockwave of the firing blast will make a much more distinct sound than what you can tell from just visually inspecting the peaks.

DK1

RRfireblade

12-19-2003, 10:01 PM

I was speaking generally as to why audio is sometimes hard to "read". There was another related thread prior to this where that was a relevant statement.

Jay.

coolcatpete

12-20-2003, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by RRfireblade

I can only speak for the Mag at those rates.

AGD has only tested them to 26bps with out shootdown,based on the recharge rate of the regulator(a known value),it may well go beyond that but it has not been physically tested to do so,at least I haven't done so.As far as full cycles,the O-Ring trick to full auto is definitely full cycles.We can tell this because it discharges the dump chamber(full forward travel) and when the trigger is released,the sear catches the bolt(full rearward travel).That is much harder to tell on other mechanisms due to thier design.WAS claims to use eyes placed at both extremes of the bolt travel to test this but who knows if he really does that.You could possible record and time a single cycle and then compare those times to the cycle times at the higher ROF but that would take some really precise recording although I guess it could be done.

As many have stated before(incuding me),it really means nothing in the real world of paintball but as far as marker bragging goes,what else do you have?

Jay.

Good argument I will side with you, I know that mags could go this fast but spyders too, what happened to mags being the fastest regarging valve.

RRfireblade

12-20-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by coolcatpete

Good argument I will side with you, I know that mags could go this fast but spyders too, what happened to mags being the fastest regarging valve.

They ARE the fastest "proven" recharging valve.Cycling the mechanism and have the Reg recharge and supply the identical pressure and volume of air for each shot fired are 2 completely different things. ;)

I wouldn't dare assume that even the Mags Reg can recharge at it's max CPS,but it has one of the most efficient recharging rates/designs there are so I would "assume" it would top out higher than most other designs.The real problem there is everyone "assumes" everything at those rates because no one has tested anything other than "cycles" and that can be subject to the "testers" methods and assumptions as well.

That's why I really don't find these things to be that big of a deal.
FYI,did you know the current Firebird T/A body was wind tunnel tested to show it would be completely stable and capable of speeds exceeding 300mph? (true and equally pointless) :)

Jay.

MagOwnerzRule

12-20-2003, 01:45 PM

Viking Owns... thats all that needs to be said, he posted about a viking, and you guys feel like the automag is threatend by the viking so you post to take up for the thing, geesh, i USED to think u guys were open minded, now i know, yall are all on the same boat

viking = gun of 2004

RRfireblade

12-20-2003, 01:58 PM

You didn't actually read anything,did you. ;)

MagOwnerzRule

12-20-2003, 02:03 PM

i had to let out anger, its frustrating buying a 1000 dollar gun then people say it cant do what it is proven to do. like i said in an earlier post. one o-ring out isnt tourny leagal on the RT mags, sure it will cycle with no shoot down, but not tourny legal like the viking is

RRfireblade

12-20-2003, 02:15 PM

I understand that,but I for one,never said it can't cycle that fast.I simply said it's not a big deal as many other guns can as well.

The O-ring trick was done simply as a demonstration of that fact.No gun,viking or otherwise is "legal" if can be bounced to 34 cps.

No one is trashing Vikings,they are probably the most respected gun here on AO next to the Mag which says alot about the open mindedness of the majority of its members.Keep in mind,this is the internet,that means any butt wipe can show thier massive stupidity with just a few key strokes,don't sweat it. :)

Jay.

FYI,I had a Viking WAY before it was cool to have one.;)

MagOwnerzRule

12-20-2003, 02:41 PM

alright, cool, misunderstanding on my part, sorry

Jack & Coke

12-20-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by MagOwnerzRule
i had to let out anger, its frustrating buying a 1000 dollar gun then people say it cant do what it is proven to do. like i said in an earlier post. one o-ring out isnt tourny leagal on the RT mags, sure it will cycle with no shoot down, but not tourny legal like the viking is

Dude, you need thicker skin. Be proud of what you have. No need to "vent" and show how insecure you are about your purchase decision. If you're willing to blow a grr on a gun, then I would hope you would be confident in what you were getting yourself into.

If you read the whole thread, no one is bringing down the Viking. The only concerns here are the integrity of the "proof" and their significance, or lack thereof.

You could easily replace the word "viking" with any other gun, and this thread would be the same. So no, AO is not picking on your gun. We are just curious about lofty unproven claims, or "proof" which is at best questionable.

the viking is a good gun, no playa hatin' here... :)