Speed Check/ W.A.S.

[RRfireblade]

First off,there's alot of talk about the new WAS board for the Impy.I would like to state that Jim does not claim any ROF of this vid but it is pretty smoking.I hope someone here will put an actual figure on it.

www.microcode-solutions.com/test6.avi 4+ meg

And

www.microcode-solutions.com/test6-small.wmv

Jay.

P.S. He claims Semi-only.

[Automaggin2]

not many people like Jim Drew around here.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Does anyone like Jim Drew around here? How many people have actually met Jim Drew around here?

[Digger]

He's a cool guy. We met him at HB. I shoot an Impulse, so we spoke in depth about the technical aspects of the new WAS board. It seems to fix a lot of problems with the vision board on how it reads paint, and shortening the delay so that it fires faster (the board has no mrof).

The Impulse Board is not designed to create the dramatic improvements seen over the stock board in Intimidators. The bounce/debounce programming is probably the most difficult the understand, and I couldnt explain correctly.

It does enable you to shoot faster. Combined with an I Frame, I am told it can acheive higher rates of fire with less effort. Thats good enough for me.

[21caballer]

i met him and talked with him for some time before i realized who he w.a.s.. nice enough guy plays hard straight up paintball. his claims might not be true, but the was board for the timmy makes a world of difference so he is on to something. I think his problem on this forum was he was unwilling to admit that his claims were,,, false. but he is not the first guy/company to make false claims, and definatly not the last.

[WickedAirSportz]

Good grief... what false claims? I would be happy to admit I was wrong if I was. What are you talking about here?

[B00bzor]

well u know i want one of those...
that must be shootin 20 bps since the vid is 20 secs long and i think he ran out of balls so...yeah bout 20 bps probably less.

[Koosh]

Only thing I've never understood is: How does a board help you increase your ROF? I can understand if your hitting limits (pulling 18bps when the board only allows 15), but what makes a gun with a different board take "less effort" to get higher ROF's?

[WickedAirSportz]

By having more time for the balls to drop, you increase the rate of fire. Since the pneumatic cycling is entirely computer controlled (using the eye system), the computer can adjust all of the parameters in real time to account for changes due to o-ring wear, dirt, etc. The faster the pnuematics can cycle, the easier it is to achieve a high rate of fire.

In some cases, we can severely reduce the dwell time necessary. For example, with a stock hardware used in the Viking (and Excalibur), a normal dwell setting of 17ms (which is 18.26ms due to a software bug) is used. With the Equalizer board in the same marker, the dwell can be set to 12ms and achieve the same velocity and better consistancy. This means that by the time you have shot 6 balls with the stock hardware, you could have shot 7 with the Equalizer... and got better efficiency and battery life.

[paintslinger]

dear god not this again. can we just get a bps count on that video?

[Marek]

I don't know about his claims, but I really don't care. I plan on getting a WAS board for my Classic, and have Mr. Petty do his magic. Should be more than outstanding.


Only thing I've never understood is: How does a board help you increase your ROF? I can understand if your hitting limits (pulling 18bps when the board only allows 15), but what makes a gun with a different board take "less effort" to get higher ROF's?

Don't know if this is the answer you are looking for, but there are more "windows" (possibilities to shoot) so it allows you to shoot as fast as your finger can press the trigger.

[WickedAirSportz]

dear god not this again. can we just get a bps count on that video?

Yes, please do. I am happy to say that the AOG forum has been the source of definite "proof" of the videos in the past.

[Koosh]

But is 15bps not 15bps? I mean, if your only limited by your finger speed with a stock board (say capped at 18) then what makes the new one "Allow" you to get more out of it?

If your only pulling 15bps then you'll only be pulling 15bps... regardless of board.

[paintslinger]

...trigger bounce?

[WickedAirSportz]

What people don't understand is that any many cases you might actually be pulling the trigger 17 bps and the marker is only firing 15 bps due to how often the trigger is checked. This is the problem with the SOB for the Intimidator. It scans the trigger every 15ms (66.6 times per second). If a cycle time takes 45ms (typical) you are looking at the minimum time of 60ms between cycles, and if you miss the trigger input window, you have to wait another 15ms before the next trigger scan.

With the Equalizer, we scan the trigger 1 million times per second, including while the marker is cycling. If you happen to pull the trigger during the cycle, it is qued and processed immediately following the completion of the current cycle. Admittedly, this is an extremely rare occurance.

[Wynken]

That's really fast polling... what do you use to debounce the trigger switch?

-Wynken

[Digger]

Well, I can see that. But I think the question he was asking was how does it increase the rate of fire on an Impulse? I could be wrong. I dont know the answer, but I do know that pre-WAS my friend's 2k2 wasnt getting higher than 16, post-WAS we were hitting 20+.

Its nice to see you post out here. Go Arizona, as few of us out here as there are.

Also, is there a projected release date, or is it still too early to tell?

And how did you enjoy Huntington Beach?

[Bucky]

looks like he out shot the halo for just a second. looks nice. my impy friends will be happy with that.

[thecavemankevin]

so Jim, when is WAS going to make a board for the emag?

Next on my list for my timmy is a WAS board and i think that your products are well worth the $ (love the thermometer by the way). Any update on the link?

[WickedAirSportz]

HB was great!

Tex just made me a new Halo with special software to drop at 32 bps so I can do some full auto videos. Yes, I think that there are a few times that I outrun the Halo's spring cone. The new Halo will fix that.

No boards for eMags. I don't know if it is even necessary, and I know the market is not currently large enough to warrant production. We would have to sell 250 units just to break even on production costs.

There is no release date for the Impulse version.

We got 10,080 Equalinks in and we are doing assembly (connectors and cases). Look for them on our website when we reopen, but I know its going to be flood of orders.

[hitech]

Queuing trigger events can increase your ROF. However, I personally believe that it should NOT be considered semi auto. The marker does fire as a result of a trigger pull and release, however, it does NOT fire WHEN you pull and release the trigger. I believe the WHEN clause should be added to all semi trigger pull definitions.

Queuing trigger events can also be dangerous. The longer the queue, the more dangerous. Overshooting can become a real problem with long queues. Just think what COULD happen with a 32 element queue. :(

[Jack & Coke]

Is the queue in the Equalizer is only the length of the cycle time...? compared to the original timmy board queue of 3/4 second.

Over shooting? How many "extra" shots can you put into the queue?

[hitech]

If the queue is "only" the length of the cycle time then it wouldn't be overly dangerous. It still has the potential to continue firing after you release the trigger (although for an admittedly short time). I still fully believe that "my" WHEN clause should be added to the definition of semi-auto.

[Jack & Coke]

Isn't it possible to negate the queue with the debounce feature? (Debounce time = computer ignores all trigger pulls for x amount of time)

If you set the debounce time eual to the queue time, wouldn't it cancel the queue? ...solving your concerns?

[hitech]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Isn't it possible to negate the queue with the debounce feature? (Debounce time = computer ignores all trigger pulls for x amount of time)

If you set the debounce time equal to the queue time, wouldn't it cancel the queue? ...solving your concerns?

Sure. But why have the queue in the first place? Also, if the user can change it on the field then it's not semi "legal".

My point (yeah, I do have one ;) ) is that "my" WHEN clause should be added to the definition of semi-auto. It covers a lot of the "tricks" currently being use to artificially increase ROF. Trigger bounce being one of the big "tricks". Then again, that one is covered by the current rule.

[WickedAirSportz]

Unless you can pull the trigger faster than the cycle time (typically about 45ms), then the que won't happen at all. So, unless you can pull the trigger in excess of 22 bps, you will never have any shot ever qued.

[Digger]

Well I guess I'll need it then. That would be so insane if I was getting ahead of myself, and I stopped pulling the trigger and it still fired one or two shots.

[shartley]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Unless you can pull the trigger faster than the cycle time (typically about 45ms), then the que won't happen at all. So, unless you can pull the trigger in excess of 22 bps, you will never have any shot ever qued.
Then what is the point? Why would this be a selling point if it would never happen when using your marker? And if this is the case, what good does it actually DO… aside from paper numbers used to impress buyers not interested in real world applications?

This reminds me of putting a stop chute in a Yugo and listing that as one of its selling points. But then when asked about safety issues that may arise by improper deployment of that chute the salesman responds with, “Well, actually the chute does not deploy until the car reaches a minimum speed of 186 MPH, which will never happen. The Yugo’s top speed is only 98 MPH. See, nothing to worry about!”

Features are only good if they can be used in practical applications, and honestly, sometimes not even then. But they sure do impress folks, don’t they?

[MaChu]

I have to say the WAS boards are bad(in a good way)! Its like night and day with the SOB. It won't fire, AT ALL, if there isnt a ball in the chamber, unlike the SOB where it might do that and chop. And for all you people who haven't tried it, or seen the difference between a WAS timmy and a SOB timmy then maybe you should before grilling a good product, well except for the Equalink part, my team mate wants his:mad: Stop making him wait! lol Oh and is it true your gonna stop making the boards with only a debounce setting of 1.5 instead of 1?

And Shartley, there might be some features that you will never use, but there are a few great ones that are really good, I could care less about the extra doodads and thingamajigs like the LCD angel with email, cell phone bla bla bla, the WAS board does 2 things i like:
1.Increases your rate of fire
2.helps with chopping problems by not firing at all until a ball is in the breech

Those 2 things drastically help alot, the other stuff is all fine and great, but after setting it up right, it probably wont be touched ever again. I see what your saying but what if AGD said "goes up to 30bps" on one of their advertisements? you gonna critisize AGD and say "well your never gonna get there"? I doubt it, your a AGD zealot and when a Timmy guy gets on here its like your duty to give him a hard time, cant we all just be friends?;)

[TransMan]

I never did liek WAS and i never really knew why i didnt liek him i just didnt because everyone else here didnt. After reading his posts today i can see where hes coming from and do believe that his boards are a good thing. I really dont think you guys are looking at the queue idea logically. Its not going to happen that often but if it does it not going to keep firing after u let go it would put out ONE extra shot. Unless you can fire at 44 bps which im sure most cant. Its not going to be dangerous because by the time ur brain tells ur finger to stop shooting the gun would already have shot that queued ball. The when clause has no validity in my opinion unless someone made a board that would save up shots so u could pul the trigger ten times and then hit a button and it shoots ten times on its own. Your agrument makes no since at all your just trying to nit pick things he says so that you can prove your point about him being evil. :rolleyes:

[sniper1rfa]

hehehe, i remember when i had my stock mayhem board... Unlimited shot buffer, and it cycled at 8 bps....


I could que up 30 shots and just let it run out, never pulling the trigger at all... :)


it thought it was stupid. i DID overshoot a couple times cause i fired too fast, and qued up a couple extra shots.



WAS, i like your boards, they are good, work great, and some useful features, i just dont like that you make extra, worthless and sometimes impossible claims.

this board CANNOT make you fire faster. you cant pull the trigger any faster with this board, and he has just stated that you will never que extra shots. So why claim it does that? Why not focus your hype on REAL advantages? its a good product, it will sell without BS attached.

[TransMan]

No he said that it was un likely that you would get a shot queued not that it was not possible. I'm sure that someone some where and some point in time has shot a burst of balls in which they pulled they trigger that fast.

He also just explained to you why his baords shoot faster. its because his bards read inputs of shots WAY faster then the stock boards so it never misses a pull. So if u were missing an extra shot or two because the original baord wasnt picking it up fast enough now you will be shooting faster. Stop just saying that it doesnt work and explain why it doesnt work.

[WickedAirSportz]

this board CANNOT make you fire faster. you cant pull the trigger any faster with this board,

Yes, in fact the board does allow you to shoot faster. Ask any customer that has switched from their SOB to the Equalizer. There is a definite increase in the rate of fire. The SOB is limited to about 16.5 bps before you start experiencing the dry fire (pops) while shooting, due to the eye logic thinking the bolt is actually a ball.

With the Equalzier, the trigger is scanned at 1 million times per second, not 66.6 times per second like the SOB. With the SOB, after a shot is fire, there is a trigger delay period (15ms min) before the trigger is scanned. This means that with a cycle time of about 45ms, if you pulled the trigger just right (cadence) the max rate of fire would be 60ms per shot (16.6bps). This could be a little faster or slower depending on the speed of your pneumatics.

As far as the que goes, there are numerous players that shoot fast that do que shots. If your marker pneumatics are slow (bad o-rings resulting in slow cycle time), you would probably que shots. I que shots myself with a fast setup.

The reason for the que is that you legitimately released and repulled the trigger during the cycling of the pneumatics. By NPPL, PSP, and PanAm rules, one pull = one shot. If the marker was ready to fire it would fire. So what if the marker was not ready? We que the event, and it fire immediately upon completion of the current cycle. The worst case I have ever seen is a delay of about 11ms + ball drop time.

It's one of the advertising features that most won't ever use, but it is part of how we obtain the high rates of fire with our Equalizer boards.

[sniper1rfa]

15 ms? then cycle time. OK, i can see that happening, and i can see a skipped shot once in a while. however, very rarly can i get less than .05 seconds between pulls... ive tried. its usually ~.065
So, i will give you the skipped shots. good job.

[EDIT]: After looking through your posts more carefully, you state that it scans every 15 ms. Now, this would not count the checks during the cycle, due to the lack of a shot buffer (assuming there isnt one). OK, Fine.
However, your making it seems like its an instantaneous scan. This cannot be, as it would limit the rof, and be so unreliable, that the people who wrote the code would have changed it. if you missed the scan, it would skip a shot. PLUS, the switch bounce would make it even harder to get a scan. That would never have made it through product testing, considering you could theoretically get skipped shots even when firing slowly. You could miss a scan just by tapping the trigger (which i do beleive can be done VERY fast, though not multiple times in a row).

I would think that those who wrote the code would make the scan rate as fast as possible. why would they make it anything other than a loop which scans at the rate of the chip? It would be dumb to do it any other way, and i assume that whoever is programming could figure this out, as it is very logical.

so, now the only claim i have read with any merit so far is the eye reading the bolt as a ball. I agree that eye logic is hard to get right.
[EDIT]





Unless you can pull the trigger faster than the cycle time (typically about 45ms), then the que won't happen at all. So, unless you can pull the trigger in excess of 22 bps, you will never have any shot ever qued.

i WONT give you this one. Nobody can pull the trigger that fast. Thats two pulls WITHIN .040 seconds (taking into account that you need the trigger down for the entire switch-debounce period, which i assumed is 5 ms for this. So really, you need to pull 25 bps, with a 5 ms delay on each pull. That means you have to move your finger(s) fully back and fully foward in 35 ms, plus the fact that you need to do it more than once. That is damn near impossible. your fingers just dont move that fast.

oh yeah, out of curiosity, does your cycle time number include the time it takes to load a ball (with a HALO, say...)?

Therefore, your shot buffer cannot be a claim, unless your giving me numbers which are not what you actually use.

[PolishSausage]

I really don't see a point to this thread, other than once again to try to dis-prove WAS's claims. The original intention was to show off the new board, right?

Then why are members in here posting how they don't like WAS, he's a liar, and his claims are false and shouldn't be advertised.

Guess what, ITS HIS COMPANY....
Questions are fine but the line should be drawn at "I hate WAS, he's a liar, blah blah blah..."

:mad:

[sniper1rfa]

ah, very untrue. I dont think anybody here "hates" WAS. heck, most of the objectors do agree that they are nice boards (as I do). however, he hypes his stoff a little more than he should, and he is accesable, so he is in a good position to be disproved. :-)

Besides, the only way to prove something is to try to disprove it. :D

[nippinout]

Playing with debounce is scary stuff.

Switch noise is a 'cheaters' way of increasing ROF. The Shocker Turbo's were very scary guns. Imagine an Emag using noise to fire.

Let's hear more about the debounce feature.

[TransMan]

yes im going to agree with Sausage on this one the point of this thread was to find out how man bps that gun was shooting in the vid but no ones even attempted to do that yet.....

[WickedAirSportz]

sniper1rfa,

The trigger input is handled using a hardware level interrupt with the Equalizer. The hardware scans the trigger input pin every 4th clock cycle (4Mhz clock = 1 million times per second). When the interrupt occurs a flag is set and the interrupt vector is processed. The interrupt routine runs asyncronous to everything else. I created a complete multitasking OS for this product. The trigger is debounced when it is RELEASED, not pulled. If you pulled the trigger, it was generally by no accident. A low value pull-up resistor insures that false triggers do not occur due to humidity or debris in the switch that could cause a low amount of continuity.

The switch is scanned the entire time the marker is turned on, and this includes during the time the marker is firing.

It most certainly is possible to pull the trigger 22+ times per second, but only for a few shots, and perhaps between just two shots. This is not very common, and only those with very fast fingers (or a little bit of luck) can actually do it. I que shots about 7% of the time while I am shooting (according to a running total that I built into the test board). However, the best string of consecutive shots I have seen is 4 in a row that were qued. Generally, it is just one shot every 2 to 3 seconds of shooting. I do shoot fast though. I just played the PSP event and I shot 5 cases of paint in 8 games (5 minute max, with no games going the distance).

When you are walking your trigger, sometimes you get a bit out of sync and pull both fingers almost at the same time. It is generally in this case where the queing will occur as you are just releasing the trigger and the 2nd finger is pulling it.

Scanning the trigger all of the time with our hardware can never reduce the rate of fire, only increase it.

[Digger]

Indeed, on my friend's intimidator, he hit 25bps. Consistantly for about 5 seconds (no paint).

I know with the vision impulse with an I Frame, I have outshot halo B's and evoIIs and skipped using perfect gravity feeds.

The WAS board as I understand it, does not actually pull the trigger faster. It gives you credit for shots that you make that were otherwise ignored due to slow pnuematics or programming mrof or even the eye. Its also easier to pull the trigger faster because of the (and this is in the timmy, I dont know about the impulse) microswitch.

[WickedAirSportz]

The WAS board as I understand it, does not actually pull the trigger faster. It gives you credit for shots that you make that were otherwise ignored due to slow pnuematics or programming mrof or even the eye.

:) There are no credits given! The rate of fire displayed is the actual number of times that the pnuematics cycled in a 1 second interval, not an approximation or average.

[sniper1rfa]

Digger: 25 bps is doubtful, do you honestly realize how fast that is? :)

WAS: fine, you have made valid points.
so, for debounce, it just ignores the trigger for a debounce period (which is so small it wont matter cause you can move that fast) after it sees a closed switch? works.

oh yeah... what, exactly, is the trigger routine for the SOB board?


and really your not increasing a persons rof, your increasing the gun's, but thats just symantics... ;)

[WickedAirSportz]

The SOB scans the trigger 66.6 times per second when it is not firing. At the end of a firing cycle, it waits one scan interval before checking the trigger. So, cycle time + "delay" value = roughly 60ms when the delay is set to the lowest value (15ms). If you have a fast solenoid, this time could be reduced to about 50ms.

[CRiZO]

lets just all say and admit it together.

"The WAS board is the shizzy."

On a texas storm timmy (has WAS) I was walking it at 18, it's much more responsive feeling than any other electro i've shot. Some of the guys on texas storm were doing 18 as well, but had short bursts over 20. It's entirely possible.

[xmetal2001]

Reductio ad absurdum

That was totally out of context, but it makes me sound smart...

Just like everything else this industry claims, I'll believe it when once I've tried it.

[Miscue]

WAS has a pattern of providing explanations that are contrary to reality... although seemingly plausible until close inspection. I'm far from satisfied with his explanation as to how his board can increase ROF legitimately. How does a "fair" circuit board help you fire faster? A board does not magically improve the interface between a human finger and a microswitch.

He talks about "queueing," and how it gives you shots you should have had, but was not accounted for. Sounds plausible, but I think there is a problem with this... I'll explain why.

I didn't double check WAS's math, but he says that 45ms cycle time of Timmy requires ~22bps for queueing to take place. I had no idea that people could shoot that fast. Like Shartley said... what's the point of queueing then?

Looking at only the electronics... checking the trigger 66 times a second is more than enough to handle 20bps or so on the trigger... although WAS makes it seem as though it is possible to fire in between that window. Yes, it is possible... but this is irrelevant even in worst case situations... and the only way you can fire twice within that window and have one shot unaccounted for is to shoot at 66+. When the trigger is pressed, a flag is raised immediately. (And if not, it was implemented in a stupid way). The CPU is not checking the 'trigger,' it does not matter if the trigger is depressed or not when it is checking... it is checking the raised flag which will not turn off until the CPU gets to it... 66 times a second. Also, you cannot demonstrate a single shot pull in which the gun does not fire because a window of opportunity is missed... that's simply a broken gun.

So, his 66 vs. million/sec check is horse puckey as far as the electronics go... and there is absolutely no reason for a million/sec board to queue shots that would not have been missed anyway by the 66/sec board... unless you can fire beyond 66bps.

I am somewhat aware of the WAS board's "cheater" characteristics... and eye-brow raising BPS. I've never heard of Angels, or other guns shooting in semi like the WAS-Timmy can... unless it's not in semi.

Let's say your fingers are moving in a flurry. How can you tell if it's a 13-15bps flurry... or a 20bps flurry? How can you tell if someone is actually walking the trigger really fast, w/o fumbling? How can you gauge the speed of someone's spastic wrist while fanning? You see a blur of finger movements, you see a blur of shots... that's all you can tell.

I have to wonder if there is a concealed turbo mode of some form, that does not trigger until high bps... and turns it into really high bps. Of course, this would need to be randomized so as to not draw attention with a steady FA cadence. Perhaps the bounce/debounce settings change as BPS goes up? Hell, they got the floating dwell settings don't they...? with increasing velocity as bps rises. This would attribute to high BPS and random shot patterns.

And... when people notice there's something odd about the Timmy's behavior... it can be attributed to QUEUEING!!! "Yes, you were actually shooting that fast but didn't know it!" Queueing... 1MHz board... etc... I have to wonder if this is a disguised explanation for a not-so semi mode.

So... Does anyone have a means to mess with the board settings, and test the gun... accounting for the number of cycles vs. the number of pulls at high ROF?

If Jim Drew could circumvent tourny rules by implementing 'features' that were VERY difficult to check at the tourny... do you think he would? :D

[WickedAirSportz]

So, his 66 vs. million/sec check is horse puckey as far as the electronics go... and there is absolutely no reason for a million/sec board to queue shots that would not have been missed anyway by the 66/sec board... unless you can fire beyond 66bps.

Wrong...

The SOB checks the trigger at the DELAY period (66.6 times per second maximum) when not firing. Are you going to tell me that checking the trigger every 15ms is same speed as checking every 1 us? 15ms is a LONG time. That is 3 checks in the same period it takes to cycle the marker. It is possible to have to have hold the trigger for at least 14ms before the trigger is finally detected. Also remember that the SOB does not initiate the first trigger check until the delay value (15ms min) has occurred after firing. This limits your rate of fire to about 16.5 bps max when your cycle time is 45ms. With the Equalizer, the trigger is scanned ALL of the time, and is debounced when the input signal is detected.

I welcome anyone to take any Equalizer board and put it on a logic analyzer and fire it electronically. You will find that it is 100% legal.

By the way... I met with the PSP rules committee, and they will have a new machine developed for them that will hard mount a marker and fire it, measuring each shot's velocity and rate of fire. I told the PSP that this was a great idea, and this would end all of the doubt about the legalities of the Equalizer.


they got the floating dwell settings don't they...? with increasing velocity as bps rises

No, we don't have a floating dwell setting. The dwell never changes from the value you set it at. Also, if you were to do some testing, you would find that increasing the dwell does not have any serious effect on the velocity. At 300 fps, using a 12" barrel, the ball is in the barrel for 3.3ms. Increasing your dwell to anything beyond what is necessary to make the valve open is just wasting air.

[Miscue]

Yes, that is what I'm saying!

This is why:

Let's say, you have your chip checks the trigger 66.6 times. Let's say your ROF is approx 22 BPS. Note that 66.6 / 22 is approximately 3.

Not only is it not possible for a 66.6 Hz chip to miss a trigger pull at 22bps... it will check it at least TWICE, and possibly THREE times.

Note the picture. Alternating colors = new trigger pull or new window for CPU to check. And... trigger pulls are 1/3 the size of the cpu window... like previously explained. No matter how you move it around... you are GUARANTEED at least TWO reads (2 CPU windows fully fit into trigger window) from the CPU.

[WickedAirSportz]

Not only is it not possible for a 66.6 Hz chip to miss a trigger pull at 22bps... it will check it at least TWICE, and possibly THREE times.

No... it doesn't work that way.


Let's say the DELAY period for the SOB is 15ms (the fastest possible). Let's say your cycle time is 45ms.

We pull the trigger and 45ms + 15ms (60ms) goes by, and now the trigger can be checked every 15ms. 60ms is not 22bps, it is 16.66 bps.

If we only scanned the trigger 66.6 times per second with the Equalizer, you would be able to tell it was slower over a long period of firiing.

[1stdeadeye]

*Psychic time*

I see another WAS thread going down in flames!

WAS,
Miscue's argument seems sound. How can it miss a shot at 22BPs when it should have been checked 2 to 3 times by the standard board.

BTW, can you guys dumb down your answers for us "technologically impaired" AOers?

[sniper1rfa]

BTW, can you guys dumb down your answers for us "technologically impaired" AOers?


no. :)



WAS, you never really answered my question. i meant, does the SOB have a shot buffer? a shot buffer being the same as your "shot que". I suspect it does, as just about every gun i have ever fired has one (it prevents skipped shots, which would definately happen). if it does not, then your board is an improvment, because then the trigger wouldnt be checked at all during the fire cycle. however, since nobody is specifically complaining about skipped shots, i doubt this is the case...


Please give me an in depth explanation of how the SOB code works, as you did for your own board. that is, of course, unless you havent actually done any reverse engineering of the board, which i also doubt. :)

[WickedAirSportz]

Yes, the SOB does have a single shot buffer, however, this causes the marker to misfire (dry fire) because the bolt is thought to be a ball on the way back, so the delay has to be turned up to prevent the misfires. The faster you shoot, the longer the delay has to be. I can cause misfires at anything lower than 40ms when walking the trigger.

[Miscue]

You claim that the SOB misses shots because the CPU isn't fast enough. At higher BPS, there are more opportunities to miss the window by random chance... thus why it is noticeable.

Ok...

Then for the same principles, you should also be able to demonstrate this taking single shots... tapping and releasing trigger similarly as at high ROF. By random chance, equal to the random chance at high ROF, eventually the gun will not fire.

I've never heard of anyone complaining about their Timmy not firing.

The reason being: The boards do not work in the way you claim them to.

[RRfireblade]

Just to shorten the path of this thread a little,A gun with a 16.6bps cap should be fairly easy to improve with an uncapped or higher capped board.It's not terribly difficult to outshoot 16bps on occasion.I don't see how that applies to an Impulse with a cap of 20 bps.If you can fire it at 20 bps stock with no problems how can it possibly be made faster than that if no one can shoot beyond 20 bps manually?
Even with que'd shoots, you'd have to pull beyond 20bps to "store" any shots on the stock board alone.Even if that was possible,NOT,that's Bull crap and SHOULD be illegal!!Since when should you get credit for shooting faster than your gun can cycle? At that rate, why even attach a trigger to the gun in the first place? I'll just mount a trigger to a PC and "store" BPS and then transfer the shots to the marker to deliver than as fast as it can.Or better yet,I better take into account for slower loaders and "store" shoots until the loader can catch up and fire them then.That's alot of crap if you ask me.I guess it pays to be in tight with NPPL rulings huh Mr. Drew. You throw a bunch of seudo tech speak around that's likely beyond the average understanding and your golden.
But back on topic,I'd still like to hear a reason that actully makes sense that shows how a board capped at 20bps can be made faster without queing shots,or is that simply the whole gimmick there too.
My whole point of this thread is this,if you go over to I.O.G. the kids over there are going nuts over this thing because Jim keeps telling them that this board is the reason he shoots so fast.Then he comes over here and states all kinds of examples of him outshooting this and that.It just doesn't seem right to take advantage of a bunch of younger kids.I thought you might TRY to be honest,oh well.
What's sad and should be fairly obvious,is if you simply state the real benifits of the board,better eye etc,and priced it around that of a stock vision,150-160,you'd do just fine.Heck,I might even buy one for that.But to speak out of your butt with erratic facts is just costing you business from the rest of us.I mean really,how long can you hang your hat on the SOB board?It seems like your not even sure of the details yourself.You simply take every question and apply it to the SOB, with the same handful of data you seem to know all ready.
Anyway, I'm sure non of this will effect your sales which seems to be your primary motivation, so good luck,live long and prosper.(without my help)

Jay.

[Digger]

Not being an Intimidator expert, Im gonna do something stupid and join this little argument and see if I can clarify, or at least socratically find out what you kids are talking about.


Originally posted by Miscue
Then for the same principles, you should also be able to demonstrate this taking single shots... tapping and releasing trigger similarly as at high ROF. By random chance, equal to the random chance at high ROF, eventually the gun will not fire.

I dont think you understand this. What Jim is saying is that when you creep your ROF above 16.6bps, the CPU has a "random" chance of not catching a trigger pull. If I were to pull the trigger twice during the 15ms window (right after the last check and right before the next) then it would only fire once for two pulls.

Therefore, the scanning would catch both trigger pulls and fire twice. In this way, the WAS Board does not make you shoot faster, but rather allows you to shoot as fast as you can.

I have a friend with slow fingers. He cant get over 11bps on his angel without a lot of sweat going into it. He's natural around 9.5bps. He picked up an intimidator with WAS Board and a trigger job designed to feel like an Angel, and was hitting...guess what? thats right, 11bps.

Miscue, stop reaching for sour grapes.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Digger
Not being an Intimidator expert, Im gonna do something stupid and join this little argument and see if I can clarify, or at least socratically find out what you kids are talking about.



I dont think you understand this. What Jim is saying is that when you creep your ROF above 16.6bps, the CPU has a "random" chance of not catching a trigger pull. If I were to pull the trigger twice during the 15ms window (right after the last check and right before the next) then it would only fire once for two pulls.

Therefore, the scanning would catch both trigger pulls and fire twice. In this way, the WAS Board does not make you shoot faster, but rather allows you to shoot as fast as you can.

I have a friend with slow fingers. He cant get over 11bps on his angel without a lot of sweat going into it. He's natural around 9.5bps. He picked up an intimidator with WAS Board and a trigger job designed to feel like an Angel, and was hitting...guess what? thats right, 11bps.

Miscue, stop reaching for sour grapes.
I am not a kid, but I will respond anyways… ;)

I am confused….. the scan rate is WAY faster than the cycle rate, but to actually outshoot the scan rate you have to still pull faster than 20bps (as stated by WAS). And since no one can physically pull that fast, how does queue come into play? I argue that since it is impossible to pull at those speeds, queue is a marketing term that is seen on paper, but will never be seen in real life…. thus it does NOT exist it the real world.

His boards may indeed allow a person to pull and shoot as fast as they can, but how it does so does not logically follow the claims. It all hinges on an IF and a CHANCE of hitting an off cycle that is physically less likely than being hit by lightning… or so it would seem. And if it does work like it says, it is making your marker shoot PAST its normal limits….. thus should be illegal for any semi-auto play.

Now, as for your friend who shoots his Angel, and then shoots ANOTHER brand of marker “designed to feel like” his Angel… do you honestly expect anyone to even consider that argument? LOL I know people who routinely shoot different speeds using different markers. And I know some that shoot better on markers that their friends shoot SLOWER on, and vice versa.

The only true test is for an individual to take the EXACT SAME MARKER, put two different boards in them (and NO other modifications) and let them rip. And then you would need multiple tests to form an accurate data base to draw from.

[WickedAirSportz]

It is not impossible to pull the trigger faster than 20bps between two consecutive shots. It is highly unlikely that you could do this several times in a row. In all of my testing over the last 6 months, the best I have ever seen is 4 consecutive shots that were qued. I do pull the trigger fast, and I que shots as much as 7% of the time I am shooting. Someone with a slow marker (slow solenoid or worn o-rings) stands a much better chance of queing an event because of the cycle time being so slow. I have one Intimidator where the cycle time is 59ms. With this marker, the queing occurs much more frequently than my other markers having cycle times in the mid 30ms range.

Scanning the trigger 1 million times per second makes sure you never miss the "window".

The board doesn't make you pull the trigger faster, it responds to the trigger input faster.

As far as queing goes... every manufacturer that has a marker with COPs, ACE, etc. has queing for the ball drop. You pull the trigger, the trigger event is detected, and then the shot is held off until a ball is in the breech. The time period waiting for the ball is somewhere between 100ms and 750ms, depending on the marker.

[Digger]

Not to get back on topic or anything, but what features of the Intimidator WAS Board will carry over to the Impulse, and what features will be unique?

[WickedAirSportz]

Carried over:

Better power supply and solenoid output. Hopper trigger. Programming port. Same logic for eyes (but using reflective technology instead of beam break).

Unique:

Programmable solenoid output voltage. Comes with new eye system.

[Digger]

Can you go into any detail, especially "hopper trigger"?

[WickedAirSportz]

Download our installation and usage manual for the Intimidator version. You could also download the Warpfeed Installation and usage manual, which deals directly with the hopper trigger.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Digger
I dont think you understand this. What Jim is saying is that when you creep your ROF above 16.6bps, the CPU has a "random" chance of not catching a trigger pull. If I were to pull the trigger twice during the 15ms window (right after the last check and right before the next) then it would only fire once for two pulls.


Firing twice within 15ms is firing at or beyond 133.33 bps (2 * 1/0.015).

I don't think so.

But, I suppose switch noise could do it... and then you could queue that. :D

[WickedAirSportz]

The window is 45ms + 15ms = 60 ms. It is certainly possible to pull the trigger anytime during this window.

[Digger]

Which is calculated as (1sec / .06ms per shot) = 16.6 or the max rate of fire.

I just got it.

Anyways, it seems that if you shoot faster than 16.6bps, the shots are not taken, so that the multiple trigger pulls are ignored. The WAS Board queues the trigger pull so that the shot can be made when there is an opprotunity.

Damn, thats actually pretty smart. Now my question is: does the impulse suffer this problem? I know that the Vision mrof is 20.2bps, so I dont see it being a similar problem. In which case, how does the WAS board help (an impulse)?

[WickedAirSportz]

My examples for the SOB represent one of the problems with the SOB. The Intimidator can fire in excess of 22bps.

No, the current Impulse boards don't have the trigger input problem that the SOB has. However, there are problems with FSDO and not seeing contrasting colors of paint that are solved with the Equalizer.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

So they don't want to have guns with trigger bounce doing roughly 18bps, but you can have a board that will queue shots so you can shoot 20+ bps? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[WickedAirSportz]

Que SHOT, not shots. Basically, the firing sequence is held off for a few milliseconds, just like waiting for a ball to drop. All markers with anti-chop devices que (hold off) a shot until a ball is detected or some time period goes by without a ball being detected. This is nothing new... its been happening for several years.

[shartley]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
As far as queing goes... every manufacturer that has a marker with COPs, ACE, etc. has queing for the ball drop. You pull the trigger, the trigger event is detected, and then the shot is held off until a ball is in the breech. The time period waiting for the ball is somewhere between 100ms and 750ms, depending on the marker.
That my friend is NOT queuing. That is DELAY. A single shot being held off until the ball is in the breach is a DELAY, it would have to have MULTIPLE shots being held back and then fired automatically for it to be queued. But queued sound more “technical” than “delayed” doesn’t it?

Queue
1. A line of waiting people or vehicles.

2. A long braid of hair worn hanging down the back of the neck; a pigtail.

3.Computer Science.

a. A sequence of stored data or programs awaiting processing.
b.A data structure from which the first item that can be retrieved is the one stored earliest.


Get it? A sequence of stored data, not a delay caused by a sensor. And if only ONE thing is stored, it can't be the "first", it will be the ONLY. And "first" indicates that more than one thing is being stored.


Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Que SHOT, not shots. Basically, the firing sequence is held off for a few milliseconds, just like waiting for a ball to drop. All markers with anti-chop devices que (hold off) a shot until a ball is detected or some time period goes by without a ball being detected. This is nothing new... its been happening for several years.
There you go again. Is the shot held off and then fired, or is it queued? For it to be “queued” it can NOT be a single shot, it must be MULTIPLE SHOTS, otherwise it is a DELAY. And if that is the case, how can a DELAY increase your rate of fire in itself? You claim your board does what anti-chop devices have been doing, yet claim it increased your ROF?

Is the board storing a shot and then firing it, OR is it delaying the shot? You have said BOTH, and it can’t be both. And if it is delaying the shot, then it can not “increase” ROF since causing a delay is slowing down, not speeding up… and if it stores a shot, THAT should be illegal any way you look at it. It should NOT be allowed in Semi-Auto rules since it means that the user can outshoot their marker’s capabilities in an unnatural manner enhanced by electronics.

Please…. Stick with one definition or explanation.

LOL You make products that for WHATEVER reason work great. It is just when you try to explain WHY they do that you get shot to pieces. And you can never answer a simple question with a simple answer. And the problem with this, is that the average customer could care less WHY it works like it does, but that it DOES. They perceive that their speeds are increasing, and if you tell them it is because little green men from Mars are making it do that, they will believe you…. after all, it MUST be true, they ARE shooting faster. So, you assume EVERYONE will take whatever reason you give as fact.

I have a feeling the next board will not only have AI and Queue Shots, but also have Psychic abilities to sense beforehand how many shots you want to fire and then fire them for you at the right moment. And there will be some mathematical equation given to explain it all. And it will be NPPL Legal! ;)

Anyone remember the term “fuzzy math”? ;) I have a new one! WASy Math! :D

[sniper1rfa]

WAS, you cannot say that the window is 45 + 15, because you already said the SOB does, in fact, have a shot buffer. therefore, it is constantly scanning the trigger, wether it i firing or not. in order to miss a shot, even with the buffer, you would have to shoot thrice in 60 ms, or 20 bps. since you already said that is very improbable that you will pull multiple shots at 20 bps, you will, in effect, never miss a shot, even with the SOB board. therefore, i believe the reported ROF increase is either people falling for your hype and blinging themselves, or you have something illegal going on.


And better power supply? I currently build custom portable power supplies (they are called "batteries"). Your board controls the solenoid by completing a curcuit, not by doling out power. therefore, as long as your transistor can handle the current (if it cant, it will fry), there will be no difference when compared with other transistors.


There is a delay for eyes, though most boards also have a shot buffer, wether they have a ball sensor or not.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
My examples for the SOB represent one of the problems with the SOB. The Intimidator can fire in excess of 22bps.

No, the current Impulse boards don't have the trigger input problem that the SOB has. However, there are problems with FSDO and not seeing contrasting colors of paint that are solved with the Equalizer.

THAT"S ALL I'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET YOU TO SAY FOR 2 WEEKS,YOU GIANT PAIN IN THE BUTT!!

Why is it so hard for you to admit the obvious truth ?

Geez.

Jay.

[WickedAirSportz]

By definition, a queue is a storage facility. Whether a single piece of data or multiple pieces of data are stored, it is still a queue. The "delay" has to be stored somewhere, so it is stored in our SINGLE BYTE queue.

The SOB also has a single byte queue. The max rate of fire out of an SOB under ideal conditions is 16.6 bps. Faster than that results in the bolt being confused as a ball, and dry fires occur.

If a power supply dips under the heavy load of the solenoid draw (more than 1 amp of current for the first few milliseconds, followed by a holding current of 450ma), the voltage will drop and thus increase the amount of time necessary to achieve the proper dwell. There is a lot more science than using a simple transistor (which have .6v average voltage drop, making a MOSFET with low RDS necessary). The original AKA hardware dropped almost a full volt when firing the solenoid. This is why the Equalizer has a dwell period 6ms less than the stock hardware!

Datasheet info for the solenoids and real world results are very different.

[hitech]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
The trigger input is handled using a hardware level interrupt with the Equalizer. ...I created a complete multitasking OS for this product.

Now you are claiming that the Equalizer board contains a complete multitasking OS when all it probably does is use interrupts? Quite a stretch! :rolleyes:

[hitech]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
By definition, a queue is a storage facility. Whether a single piece of data or multiple pieces of data are stored, it is still a queue.

Only by WAS's definition. The rest of the industry uses a different definition. Now I understand the problem. You have made up your own definitions for various terms.

[shartley]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
By definition, a queue is a storage facility. Whether a single piece of data or multiple pieces of data are stored, it is still a queue. The "delay" has to be stored somewhere, so it is stored in our SINGLE BYTE queue.

The SOB also has a single byte queue. The max rate of fire out of an SOB under ideal conditions is 16.6 bps. Faster than that results in the bolt being confused as a ball, and dry fires occur.

If a power supply dips under the heavy load of the solenoid draw (more than 1 amp of current for the first few milliseconds, followed by a holding current of 450ma), the voltage will drop and thus increase the amount of time necessary to achieve the proper dwell. There is a lot more science than using a simple transistor (which have .6v average voltage drop, making a MOSFET with low RDS necessary). The original AKA hardware dropped almost a full volt when firing the solenoid. This is why the Equalizer has a dwell period 6ms less than the stock hardware!
First of all… why would a “delay” need to be stored anyways? A SHOT would need to be stored, not a “delay”. A delay is the absence of action, or even the prevention of action, but you would not need to store that…. you simply don’t DO anything, or you prevent something from happening…. And in either case, it would be an instantaneous action not something that would require storing…. That is unless you want to “delay” something in the future without having to manually do so.

With that said, by storing a “shot” you are not following what I would call fair play for Semi-Auto action which would dictate one shot per pull of the trigger, WHEN the trigger is pulled (as has been noted by another member).
Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Datasheet info for the solenoids and real world results are very different.
………… anyone else find the extreme humor in that statement? Oh the irony………………. ;)

[RobAGD]

This thread so far has been about technical discussion. If it breaks down into name called or the like I will close it.

Personally I think the WAS board is a tad illegal in how its reading trigger pulls.

I have no hate for Jim, he may make weird product claims but at least his products work and do something adding some damn good functionality to the guns.

The WAS board is well thought out and programed, I would like to have a little fun and hook one up to me emag :) But I dont think the Timmy WAS spec will be happy with 18v running though it. The harness I can hack in, I just dont want to release the magic blue programming smoke :)

-Robert

[WickedAirSportz]

Tad illegal? It scans the trigger at a hardware level. If the cycle has not finished yet (which we know based on the eye system), the trigger event (if one legitimately occurs) is stored and processed up completion of the cycle. The Angel IR3 does this, and the Intimidator has done this long before our hardware. This is nothing new guys.

Don't use 18 volts. There is a simple voltage divider used to convert the battery voltage in half (about 4.5v with a fresh battery), and that is fed into the ADC input on the PIC to determine the battery level. If you use 18v, you will be feeding 9v into the PIC and that will destroy it.

Yes, there is a complete multitasking OS. Remember, I develop emulation technology and quite use to merging multiple different operating systems so that they function together. I have timer events, LED events, LCD events, etc. Ever notice that the LCD display doesn't lag behind with the Equalizer board like it does with the SOB? Using a multitasking system allows realtime updates of everything. The firing code is all interrupt based, allowing the highest priority of CPU processing. One of the reasons why the Equalizer is so fast is due to the multitasking OS.

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Tad illegal? It scans the trigger at a hardware level. If the cycle has not finished yet (which we know based on the eye system), the trigger event (if one legitimately occurs) is stored and processed up completion of the cycle. The Angel IR3 does this, and the Intimidator has done this long before our hardware. This is nothing new guys.



I dont know Jim, it seems like a gun intentionally making a shot that is not immediately after the trigger event should not be considered truly semi auto and definitely dosent sound legal according to the NPPL's rule on semi auto.

[paintball8869]

I just wanted to make a quick statement about my feelings on WAS's products. I love my equalizer, and it's leaps and bounds above the SOB board.

I'm however not happy about not having an equalink in 8 months so far. Not the point of this thread though. The equalizer was an awesome upgrade and i don't regret it. I SHOOT FASTER becuase i was hitting the gaps in the SOB board, where it wouldn't register a shot. I threw the SOB in, got rid of the trigger bounce, and was hitting roughly 20 bps when walking it (maxed at 20, consistently 18). I could barely shoot 16 with teh SOB without getting a pop sound every few shots and you just know it wasn't working right at that time.

All in all, the equalizer is great, equalink is mythical ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
In all of my testing over the last 6 months, the best I have ever seen is 4 consecutive shots that were queued.


Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Queue SHOT, not shots. Basically, the firing sequence is held off for a few milliseconds, just like waiting for a ball to drop.

Which is it? How "big" is your queue? Can it only hold one SHOT, or 4 or more shots?

[hitech]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Yes, there is a complete multitasking OS...I have timer events, LED events, LCD events, etc.

By your definition that maybe a multitasking OS, however, the rest of us use a different definition. Somehow I doubt many would even consider the code in your board to constitute an OS in the first place!

[WickedAirSportz]

Which is it? How "big" is your queue? Can it only hold one SHOT, or 4 or more shots?

One shot. A shot was queued 4 times in a row (every other shot).


As far as rules are concerned. The NPPL is well aware of what is going on with the Angels, Intimidators, Matrices, and other markers that do the same thing.

Look at it this way... if you pull the trigger on a marker that has an anti-chop system and there is no ball, do you actually think that the trigger event is ignored? No way! The event is queued for some period of time (the Angel uses 100ms and we use 750ms). If a ball is not found during this time, the trigger event is THEN ignored. This has been the case long before we ever got into paintball.

Now, if you are able to legitimately pull the trigger twice within 40ms, but your marker's cycle time is 45ms, should that legitimate pull be ignored? The rule is one pull = one shot, and that is how our code works. You could put the marker on a machine and it will test 100% legal. I welcome all tests... the PSP will have such a machine in Chicago.

[shartley]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz


One shot. A shot was queued 4 times in a row (every other shot).


As far as rules are concerned. The NPPL is well aware of what is going on with the Angels, Intimidators, Matrices, and other markers that do the same thing.

Look at it this way... if you pull the trigger on a marker that has an anti-chop system and there is no ball, do you actually think that the trigger event is ignored? No way! The event is queued for some period of time (the Angel uses 100ms and we use 750ms). If a ball is not found during this time, the trigger event is THEN ignored. This has been the case long before we ever got into paintball.

Now, if you are able to legitimately pull the trigger twice within 40ms, but your marker's cycle time is 45ms, should that legitimate pull be ignored? The rule is one pull = one shot, and that is how our code works. You could put the marker on a machine and it will test 100% legal. I welcome all tests... the PSP will have such a machine in Chicago.
What? You are saying that a system that stops the bolt from cycling because a ball in not in the correct position does not IGNORE the shot but sets it aside and then fires it when the ball drops in place? Is that really what you want people to believe? I was always under the impression that it did not STORE the shot, but prevented it all together so as to not chop paint.

Is the shot actually queued or is it DELAYED? There is a difference I hope you know that.

As for you out-shooting your marker’s physical and electronic limitations…. You bet! The shot should NOT be stored and given after the pull time has passed. THAT is cheating. It is one thing making a system able to keep up with faster ROFs, but yet another to make one that covers up a marker’s (and it’s other firing processes) limitations by giving the user “credit” for the shot the marker could not keep up with and deliver it clearly AFTER the pull process….. no matter how short of a time after.

Again, you can ignore the fact that there is a difference between delaying a shot and “storing” a shot and delivering it later, but there IS a difference.

(Added: One pull would indeed be one shot by your standards, and ANY standards. But I personally will step up and submit a proposal to the NPPL that expands that rule.. which is clearly outdated.. to say one shot per pull WHEN the trigger is pulled, and not at a later time.)

[SlartyBartFast]

My it's awfully entertaining reading any WAS thread.

How can anyone claim anything on a PIC/microprocessor is an OS? Multitasking? No bloody way. Unless you're using some pic/microcontroller that isn't available to the general public.

Interrupts and how they are processed are just part of PIC/microcontroler architecture. Not some great programming feat by WAS.

Once again, drowning logic and clear answers with hype and twisted jargon....:rolleyes:

[Koosh]

So by that reasoning, what would you have to do... Activeate the ACE or COPS or whatever, then fire once without a ball in the breach... If how I understand what WAS is saying, as soon as you drop a ball in the feed tube, the gun will fire, since it "queued" the shot that wasn't fired due to the ACE. That doesnt seem right...

[WickedAirSportz]

What? You are saying that a system that stops the bolt from cycling because a ball in not in the correct position does not IGNORE the shot but sets it aside and then fires it when the ball drops in place? Is that really what you want people to believe? I was always under the impression that it did not STORE the shot, but prevented it all together so as to not chop paint.

Wake up and smell the coffee... this has been happening for years now. Grab an Intimidator or Impulse. Now pull the trigger, and THEN drop a ball. Guess what... it doesn't fire until the ball is in the chamber. This is not something new. Has anyone tried this with a mag with an ACE? :)

Delayed is what? It is holding something off... how does the computer know to hold something off? It must have a flag set somewhere... that flag is stored in a register, correct? Stored = delayed.

There is a complete multitasking OS, right down to threading with quantums. Tasks are switched in and out as their time expires. This is how to properly program anything you want to run fully asyncronous.

[sniper1rfa]

so, what are the differing kinds of transistors? i would love for you to tell me why they drop the voltage, since they are an elctronic SWITCH and (theoretically) have no resistance. besides, resistance doesnt drop voltage anyway. so what does? why is there a dip in voltage??
*pulls out mayhem stock board, probably the crappiest board ever, consisting of a 555 and a trans...*
^^ serious question, not sarcasm.

.2V drop. I think thats just because of the useless voltage of the cells (they are ~1.45V each when charged, but it drops to ~1.25 with any load, cause thats how batteries work...).


and your missing my point. the SOB HAS A BUFFER! you said so yourself! Therefore you cannot add your dwell to the time that the board ignores the trigger input! it ignores it for 15ms at a time, and nothing else. SO in actuality, you have to pull the trigger in EXCESS of 66.6 BPS to skip a shot WITH THE SOB board!

^^ taunting humour mixed with real numbers

[Bob01RT]

I realise you may make errors explaining after being questioned hard, but I want you to explain this..you typed.

Tad illegal? It scans the trigger at a hardware level. If the cycle has not finished yet (which we know based on the eye system), the trigger event (if one legitimately occurs) is stored and processed up completion of the cycle. The Angel IR3 does this, and the Intimidator has done this long before our hardware. This is nothing new guys.

Not busting on you just wondering if you meant what I think
Isn't this the point your trying to sell? If so then why do you need a new board to begin with if the stock has it? Is it just for the upgraded trigger checks?

Like I said I've got nothing against ya haven't used your product I just don't understand that statement, maybe I'm reading it wrong.

edit: I see your speaking of just the eye control, not the board missing your pull correct?

[WickedAirSportz]

Every transistor is different, but typically the "on" resistance of a transistor is very high, and most often they are exited through a diode (hence the voltage drop). MOSFETS are a much better choice because of their transient times and very low on resistance values.

The "shot buffer" (one shot queue) is overlapped with the bad eye logic. If you exceed the 16.6 barrier, it thinks the bolt is a ball and stunts the pneumatics. No matter how you slice it, balls are not leaving the barrel any faster than 16.6 bps.

[WickedAirSportz]

edit: I see your speaking of just the eye control, not the board missing your pull correct?

Correct!

[WickedAirSportz]

So by that reasoning, what would you have to do... Activeate the ACE or COPS or whatever, then fire once without a ball in the breach... If how I understand what WAS is saying, as soon as you drop a ball in the feed tube, the gun will fire, since it "queued" the shot that wasn't fired due to the ACE. That doesnt seem right...

Well, it's not a secret. The Intimidator, Impulse, IR3, Matrix w/eyes, AKA Viking/Excalibur, and EBlade all use this technique.

[sniper1rfa]

that doesnt make sense, you would think they would put that little bit of code that has it wait for the eye to clear before checking for a ball. its not hard to implement, considering its basically the same as watching the triggerswitch...



besides, i bet five bucks you cant sustain 16 bps (i wont go for you using your own board, however).

[WickedAirSportz]

I'll take the bet. At the PSP event, I was reloading 140 rounds every 8 seconds. I only know that because people video taped the game and came up to me after the game and told me that they were timing me with a stopwatch to see how fast I shot each pod. No trigger bounce either. :)

I am slow compared to some guys... look at Lasoya, Mike Williams, etc. They are all getting low 20's per second with 100% legal markers.

[hitech]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
There is a complete multitasking OS, right down to threading with quantums. Tasks are switched in and out as their time expires. This is how to properly program anything you want to run fully asyncronous.

I'm not questioning that you are multitasking. Responding to a timer interrupt and switching to a new task isn't that hard (I could do it ;) ). I'm stating that by anyone else's definition that board does NOT contain an Operating System.

[hitech]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
I am slow compared to some guys... look at Lasoya, Mike Williams, etc. They are all getting low 20's per second with 100% legal markers.

Can anyone spell b-o-u-n-c-e...

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz


Well, it's not a secret. The Intimidator, Impulse, IR3, Matrix w/eyes, AKA Viking/Excalibur, and EBlade all use this technique.

Wrong. Dead wrong.

Just tried it.

Vision on,pull trigger,no cycle, vision beeps telling you there's no ball in the chamber,drop one in.....nothing.
You have to start the cycle all over again.

Jay.

[shartley]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz


Wake up and smell the coffee... this has been happening for years now. Grab an Intimidator or Impulse. Now pull the trigger, and THEN drop a ball. Guess what... it doesn't fire until the ball is in the chamber. This is not something new. Has anyone tried this with a mag with an ACE? :)
Wake up and stop selling snake oil. Wrong man, wrong time, wrong world.

Now…. this sounds all good and well, but from all the reading of your explanations of your board, we are talking about “similar” things, but not the same thing. Also, one is to prevent the ball from chopping, NOT to raise ROF’s through not delaying a shot but storing one for future use (even if the future is almost instantaneous). And you can use all your twisting of numbers and explanations to say this is not different, but it IS.

The simple thing to understand is that one is designed to prevent paint from chopping due to the user not firing his marker in a manner that the marker (including hopper) can keep up with. This in effect would SLOW the ROF, but keep the player shooting chop free. What you are doing with your board is increasing the user’s ROF by electronically compensating for the USER shooting in a manner that the marker can not keep up with.

And THIS should be illegal if used in Semi-Auto tournaments. Of COURSE you don’t want that. I understand that.

I also am not saying that this is not “neat” no matter HOW you achieve it, but that it artificially compensates for the player out-shooting his/her markers abilities and INCREASING the ROF at the same time. While ACE and other systems do similar things but don’t also give the player an advantage for out-shooting their equipments capabilities, it only prevents them from chopping the ball IN the marker.


Originally posted by RRfireblade


Wrong. Dead wrong.

Just tried it.

Vision on,pull trigger,no cycle, vision beeps telling you there's no ball in the chamber,drop one in.....nothing.
You have to start the cycle all over again.

Jay.
THANK YOU! :)

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
I'll take the bet. At the PSP event, I was reloading 140 rounds every 8 seconds. I only know that because people video taped the game and came up to me after the game and told me that they were timing me with a stopwatch to see how fast I shot each pod. No trigger bounce either. :)



Are those 140 round pods or......
The new WAS pods!! 100 round pods that allow you to get 140 shots from !! :D

Just kidding,I've seen you shoot pretty fast.

Jay.

[WickedAirSportz]

Vision on,pull trigger,no cycle, vision beeps telling you there's no ball in the chamber,drop one in.....nothing.

How long did you wait after pulling the trigger before dropping the ball? The window is relatively small with the Impulse (about 150ms). John Rice from WDP stated that the IR3 window is 100ms, and he also stated that all of the Angels ramp the dwell. :)

Whether you personally agree with the shot queing or not does not matter to me. By definition of the rules, one pull = one shot. It does not matter how this happens. This was discussed at the NPPL rules committee meeting, and I just chatted with the PSP rules committee this week. The only thing NPPL is concerned about is trigger bounce (because markers are so responsive now). The only thing that PSP is concerned about is dwell raising the velocity. I put Chris Black's mind at ease with this issue. PSP has developed a machine to cycle and measure a marker. I will be providing the PSP with a device to check Equalizer boards to make sure that they have not been modified from the factory programming (to eliminate the noise about "cheater" boards).

[RRfireblade]

I tried it a few ways.If I got to hear the beep at all no matter how close to the drop,(I tried dropping a little before the pull) it won't fire.It would have to be REALLY close but I couldn't make it happen.


Jay.

[WickedAirSportz]

The "green light" board here allows a few hundred milliseconds between the drop and the firing. The Cricket board's window is very tight, but not as you describe. I know they have made numerous changes to the programming. What is the lot # on your board?

[hitech]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
(to eliminate the noise about "cheater" boards).

You mean "we" aren't the only one complaining? ;)

[RRfireblade]

I'd have to look, I will tell you it's a pretty new board.Just get in from SP < month.

Jay.

My wife is yelling at me to go to dinner so I'll have to check back in later.

[Cristobal]

This is quite an interesting discussion, because it raises some question about what semi-automatic actually means.

I suppose that if a marker could cycle faster than we could ever pull the trigger, this would be a moot point... but assuming we can have multiple pulls per cycle, a couple things can now happen.

Strict semi
1.) trigger pull; marker begins to cycle; will cycle again following the next trigger pull AFTER the cycle is finished (marker will not remember any trigger pulls made during the cycle).

Semi with trigger pull buffer
2.) trigger pull; marker begins to cycle; if trigger is pulled again before cycle is complete, the marker will remember this and immediately begin a second cycle once the first is complete. (Marker will remember ONE trigger pull event per cycle)

Semi with trigger pull queue
3.) trigger pull; marker begins to cycle; trigger pulled (possibly multiple times) before cycle is complete; marker remembers each and every trigger pull; marker finishes cycle and continues to cycle repeatedly, once for pull that it remembered. Then either:

3.1) marker clears the queue on the next trigger pull after the original cycle is complete
3.2) marker records every trigger pull and continues to fire until one cycle has been made for each (could result in lots of overshooting after you stopped pulling the trigger if the cycle time is slow and you pull very fast)


Then there's the issue of what happens when the marker is ready to cycle but the ball isn't in the breach (as determined by the eye, which we will assume to be working properly).

A) The marker will not accept a firing signal unless the ball is ready. In cases 2 and 3, if the ball wasn't in the breach, this would stop the buffer shot/queued shots and the marker would not fire again until the next trigger pull after the ball had chambered.
B) The marker will pause, wait for the ball to load and then continue with the buffer shot/queued shots.
C) As in B, but if the ball hasn't loaded within a set time, the buffer/queue will be cleared.


My thoughts:
1.) ought to be perfectly legal, but the actual rate of fire will always be lower than the max theoretical rate.

2.) strikes me as being questionable.

3.2) is strictly 1 shot per pull, but probably dangerous.

3.1) figures that as long as your out-pulling the marker, it will continue to fire at max rate, but once you stop pulling it can only overshoot by the number of "excess" pulls you had during the last shot. This is perhaps still dangerous, but mostly its just silly; 2.) accomplishes the same goal without any extra "hang-over" shots at the end of the string.

A) should be unquestionably legal
B) is obviously a safety hazard
C) is debatable.

A mechanical gun functions along the lines of a 1-A configuration (assuming an anti-chop bolt -- otherwise its 1-A or 1-squeegee :D)

The disadvantage is that unless you have perfect pull timing, you will never hit your makers max rate of fire. But if you add electronics into the mix, you can do a 2-C configuration and essentially "smooth" out the irregularities in the cycle and will allow continuous cycling at the max rate of fire for as long as you are pulling faster than the marker can cycle or the hopper can feed balls.


I haven't made up my mind entirely on the issue, but I'm leaning against using electronics to "smooth" out the user input by way of the trigger so that it coincides with the firing cycle. If the powers that be are going to be strict and stingy and not allow autoresponse or reactive triggers (I'm talking about non-runaway, non-f/a here) for mechanical markers, then I think that they should be strict and stingy with the electros too.

[Cristobal]

Oh, and back to the original post, here's a screenshot of the waveform. Looks to be about 18cps

[WickedAirSportz]

B) is obviously a safety hazard

Only if the time period waiting for the ball to drop (and then fire) is excessively long. The range varies from 100ms to 750ms. I don't think anything in this range is really considered dangerous. This was brought up at the NPPL rules committee meeting, and we discussed what was dangerous and what was not. The time period we are dealing with here is not long enough to cause a concern. It's not like you pull the trigger and then several seconds go by and the marker magically fires on its own.

[WickedAirSportz]

That's 18 bps... those were balls coming out of the barrel, not dry fires. :D

[hitech]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz


Only if the time period waiting for the ball to drop (and then fire) is excessively long. The range varies from 100ms to 750ms. ...It's not like you pull the trigger and then several seconds go by and the marker magically fires on its own.

I guess it depends on what you think is dangerous. 3/4 of a second is in my opinion dangerous.

[Jack & Coke]

Here's my take:

I like Cristobal's "Strict semi" definition:



1.) trigger pull; marker begins to cycle; will cycle again following the next trigger pull AFTER the cycle is finished (marker will not remember any trigger pulls made during the cycle).


why?

Because that's how mechanical markers work.

Shouldn't we make electros function by the same rules and limitations as mechanical markers as they relate to "one pull = one shot"?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Jack &amp; Coke
Here's my take:

I like Cristobal's "Strict semi" definition:



why?

Because that's how mechanical markers work.

Shouldn't we make electros function by the same rules and limitations as mechanical markers as they relate to "one pull = one shot"?
IMHO............ Yes.

And I think the rules committee agreed to it all because it was sold to them by a master salesman….. They need to watch “The Music Man” a few times. ;)

I would back a new ruling like what was posted… and I think it should be brought up to them. It is not a matter of mathematics, but of fair play and simple LOGIC. Things that far too often get slid under the table when trying to make a sale…….. After all, what would happen to WAS sales if his boards were not allowed on tourney markers?

[WickedAirSportz]

Ah... but the problem is this... with a mechanical marker, if the ball is mostly in the breech, the bolt face being rounded can "pull" the ball into place and it will shoot the ball without breaking. The electro with eyes would require that you released and repulled the trigger (with your logic).

Personally, I think 750ms is a bit much. I like the 200ms figure much better, as I don't see this causing a problem. The Intimidator has always used the 750ms time, so that is what I used with the Equalizer. Remember, if there is no ball or the eyes fail, the Intimidator in normal eye mode will fire after 3/4 of a second.

One thing to keep in mind is that it takes about 76ms for a ball to free fall .68" from the top of the bolt to the base of the breech. The delay period is necessary when hoppers stutter or a ball gets hung up momentarily. A Halo can force a ball in the breech in under 15ms.

[WickedAirSportz]

I didn't have to sell anything to anyone. Markers have been doing these tricks long before I was ever in the paintball industry.

[Koosh]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
... if the ball is mostly in the breech, the bolt face being rounded can "pull" the ball into place and it will shoot the ball without breaking. ...

Pardon my Stupidity, but what the hell does that mean?

[shartley]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
I didn't have to sell anything to anyone. Markers have been doing these tricks long before I was ever in the paintball industry.
No kidding? Then why would anyone buy your boards?

You confuse what I was talking about with “selling”. I was talking about two different things. ;)

Sorry Jim, you can’t have it both ways. :)

[WickedAirSportz]

No kidding? Then why would anyone buy your boards?

Because we have better technology. It's as simple as that.

[WickedAirSportz]

Pardon my Stupidity, but what the hell does that mean?

I was explaining what an anti-chop system does. When you pull the trigger and the marker fires, if a ball is 1/2 way in the breech, you are going to chop it in half. What if the ball is almost at the bottom of the breech? The bolt face can actually "scoop" the ball into place as the bolt moves forward, allowing the ball to positioned in the middle of the bolt by the time that the ball is chambered and expelled. With an anti-chop setup, the firing sequence is either not initiated, or held off until the ball is all of the way into the breech.

[shartley]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz


Because we have better technology. It's as simple as that.
Yes, you make some great products….. no argument there. But you are a salesman, you don’t sell your boards, you sell the idea of your boards. You sell the idea of how “technologically advanced” your boards are, and how that makes them do fantastic things.

But…………… no matter how good your boards are, time and again you have failed to prove that they do what they do for the reasons you SAY they do it. LOL Of course you will say this is just not true, fine, go ahead. We have heard it before. But it doesn’t change the facts. ;)

I think your boards and any system like them should be banned from tournament play. You can argue technicalities all you want, but that is usually the last resort for those who can’t stand up to a SIMPLE idea…. And that is what is being asked for, a simple rule. Manual markers don’t have shot storage of ANY type, for ANY reason, and neither should Electronic markers.

[sniper1rfa]

Because we have better technology. It's as simple as that.

if its been around for years, how do you have better technology!?

contradicting yourself at every turn... :eek:

[WickedAirSportz]

But…………… no matter how good your boards are, time and again you have failed to prove that they do what they do for the reasons you SAY they do it. LOL Of course you will say this is just not true, fine, go ahead. We have heard it before. But it doesn’t change the facts.

You just can't comprehend what I say. I explain exactly how the product(s) work, and you disagree. That's funny, considering that *I* created these products and I obviously know how they work. :)



if its been around for years, how do you have better technology!?

Because we do. :) Ask anyone to do a side-by-side comparison and then get back to me. :D

[Marek]

Well, for those of us on the sidelines, this is a great way to learn how to twist words around.....on both sides...

[RRfireblade]

Back from dinner and still going.Energizer's got nothing on you guys.

Anyway,
My only real complaint with Jim was he kept saying that his Impulse board will make you shoot faster.If nothing else at least he's in a roundabout way admitted that that is not true.I wish he'd go say that back at I.O.G. to all those young kids.If you want to make that claim at least say it like this, "You will possible shoot 1 ball faster if you can pull 22bps+ for at least two consecutive shots.Legal or not at least that may be the truth.

Come on Jim, do the right thing.;)

Jay.

[cris8762]

yeah i'm sure he'd do that and have 100 13 year old kids decide that since they wont get the "uber 1337 ROF" they think comes with the was board they wont buy it.

Jim here's my question for u (NOT about damn shot queing or ROF):

You say the board will eliminate FSDO on all imps. Well, i think it will fix solenoid related fsdo, but what about ACTUAl stiction of the ram in the housing cause by dow33 or lack thereof? I'm just curious if this board will fix that type of FSDO (IMO there is solenoid related fsdo, and ram/hammer related FSDO)

Thanks
Cris Polilli

[WickedAirSportz]

I *am* doing the right thing.

Cricket board w/Vision - I shoot 14-16 bps.

Equalizer w/our vision system - I shoot 17-20 bps (as proven by the video).

No trigger bounce with either setup.

People have shot the Impulse from the video and remarked about how fast it was. JD from the Rat Factory used the Rat w/Equalizer and shot faster than he ever has before, and without any ball breaks.

Draw your own conclusions...

[WickedAirSportz]

I am currently shooting a bone dry ram assembly with zero FSDO. I think it fixes the problem completely... but more and more testing is being done right now with various ram setups. Remember, this product has not yet been released, and in fact, we haven't submitted circuit board for production yet. So, if/when we find things to improve, we will.

The problem with FSDO from what I can see on a logic analyzer is that the solenoid coil is not being fully grounded with the stock hardware. This results in a current slew. This is easy enough to see yourself using a DSO.

[Cristobal]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Ah... but the problem is this... with a mechanical marker, if the ball is mostly in the breech, the bolt face being rounded can "pull" the ball into place and it will shoot the ball without breaking. The electro with eyes would require that you released and repulled the trigger (with your logic).


Good point -- but at the same time, what's to stop someone from developing an eye that registers "ok to fire" as soon as the ball is far enough into the breech that the bolt will "pull" the ball in the rest of the way?

Of course we could also look at it the other way around and say that one of the advantages to having an eye rather than an anti-chop bolt is that in the case where the ball hasn't fully loaded you delay the firing of a shot for only a fraction of a cycle, rather than having to complete a full "pinch" cycle before you can actually fire the ball.


EDIT: Oh yeah, and I don't doubt the clip shows 18bps... I only wrote cps to be precise (because I was counting gun cycles rather than balls out the barrel). Although on thinking about it, I would imagine that the sonic signature of a dry-fire would be somewhat different than a shot signature, so maybe I should have written bps since the waveform was pretty consistent... whatever :D

[WickedAirSportz]

An anti-chop system actually slows down your cycling to match the feed rate. This technically increases your rate of fire by eliminating chops and pinches.

I don't think that holding off the cycle for a few hundred millseconds is some big cheat thing. It's technology allowing the marker to fire the same rate the trigger is pulled without chopping/pinching.

[Butterfingers]

Ahh I see the battle is still going in my absense.

Just to clear things up it is in fact shot buffering any way you look at it. Anything that delays the shot more than the physycal response time of the electronics is shot buffering.

The shocker Turbo used this type of technology years ago except instead of using the eye as a refrence it buffred to a preset bps. I am not sure of the rules on turbo guns nowadays.

Ill give Jim Credit when it is due. I think the technology of his board comes from the quality of the components he uses to make them. From what I have read the technology is pretty simple...

Wether or not it should be legal is a whole other debate.

Jim If I had a dollar for every time you said...

"You just can't comprehend what I say. I explain exactly how the product(s) work, and you disagree. That's funny, considering that *I* created these products and I obviously know how they work."

I would probably be pretty well off right now :)

We understand what you tell us but the problem with what you tell us is that it is surrounded by marketing hooplah.

For example: I have created a device that will revolutionize the way we carry ourselves in life. This tool is crafted out af high quality stainless steel. Its contours are computer designed to enhance comfort and volume to scoop ratio. Our device enables you to move matter quicker than other competitive devices. It is the latest technology available for this purpose. Because of the way it works, ease of use, and the efficency this device I can honestly say it has Artifical Intelegence.

I just described a spoon.

Gimme a break its a board with a beefed up power supply, a buffer system that uses the eye as a refrence, programmed to have greater resolution for trigger input.

[Jack & Coke]

"...be the spoon..."


http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/matrixspoonboy.jpg

[WickedAirSportz]

LOL!

[manike]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
An anti-chop system actually slows down your cycling to match the feed rate. This technically increases your rate of fire by eliminating chops and pinches.

I don't think that holding off the cycle for a few hundred millseconds is some big cheat thing. It's technology allowing the marker to fire the same rate the trigger is pulled without chopping/pinching.

I agree and think that is a good thing.

I don't think electronic guns should be limited to the technology level of mechanical guns. Next thing we will be saying air sources should be limited to the energy in 12g's and that hoppers should only be able to have 10 balls in them (like tubes) and let's face it, that just won't work. Technology is always moving forwards.

You know I used to think there was a lot more people 'cheating' using the bounce factor of the WAS boards until I got mine. Some people do and are, but many are not. I would like to know more of what is happening at speed though...

As long as there is no trigger bounce then the gun is abiding by the rules of one shot = one trigger pull.

How long is it OK for it to make that shot after the pull is registered? Well as long as it isn't a long enough period to be unsafe I don't think it matters. Let's face it, if I pull the trigger in any gun, there is a lock time before the shot is fired. With a cocker you have to wait for the hammer to come forwards (quite quick) and with a spyder you wait for the hammer and bolt etc to comne forwards (slower). So there is ALWAYS a delay between pulling the trigger and a ball being fired. What does it matter if it's a variable delay depending on wether a ball is present or not just as long as that delay doesn't become dangerous? (and I don't think it is).

With an intimidator the forward pulse of the solenoid can be anywhere from 6-15ms quite happily. Which is faster than most other guns currently. It may take up to 59ms for a ball to drop under gravity (not sure where you got your 76ms value from Jim? but it doesn't fit my maths nor many people's real tests with electro cockers etc.) So if you pull the trigger for a second time as the breech is completely blocked still from the first shot the longest it will wait to implement your shot is around 74ms (maybe that's where Jim got the 76ms?) with my gun and a 10ms dwell it would wait a maxium of 69ms with a gravity fed loader... I use a halo which I know from an electro cocker can feed balls reliably in 20ms so the maximum time until a ball is fired is 30ms... and that's if a ball wasn't already loaded! let alone if it was partly on the way. I don't believe that is far off how long it takes a spyder or many other guns to fire...

I do disagree with the idea that a rounded bolt face can pull the ball in if not fed properly, it can but only if the ball is almost completely into the breech, and the time left for the ball to drop is only very short. To time a gun to work that way is NOT going to do it reliably. I used to know exactly when you could start the bolt coming forwards but I will need to look through an old post/notes to find that. In the mean time you can see why it's not really true by these images. It's a nice idea but doesn't work that well in practice due to the shape of a sphere.

http://www.automags.org/~Manike/breech2.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~Manike/breech3.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~Manike/breech4.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~Manike/breech5.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~Manike/breech6.jpg

[WickedAirSportz]

(maybe that's where Jim got the 76ms?)

Yes, that was the worst case scenario I was giving.

[hitech]

Originally posted by manike
As long as there is no trigger bounce then the gun is abiding by the rules of one shot = one trigger pull.

Yes. However, I still firmly believe that the word when should be added to the rule. We could clarify the "when" to state that the firing cycle must start when the trigger is pulled. In addition I believe that the rules should also state that only one firing cycle definition is allowed. The timing of ANY component of the cycle may not change from one cycle to the next (no "ramping" of the dwell).

Also, on a somewhat different note, the current crop of "hair" triggers that will fire if the marker is bumped should be considered illegal under the current rules. NO trigger was pulled and the marker fired. Those things are dangerous.

[manike]

Originally posted by hitech
Yes. However, I still firmly believe that the word when should be added to the rule. We could clarify the "when" to state that the firing cycle must start when the trigger is pulled.

So what's a firing cycle?

With a cocker, the firing cycle is mechanical operations which start with the pull of a trigger and then the release of the hammer.

With a cocker if I pinch a ball my firing cycle is not going to start with releasing the hammer... it's going to start by recocking the gun to release that ball. This is changing the firing cycle... should it not be allowed?

Same goes with level 10... If there is a ball in the way my firing cycle is varied in it's operation.

With the Intimidator a firing cycle is an electronic controlled sequence of events which starts with the pull of a trigger.

The 'firing cycle' of the Timmy takes into account what to do with when the trigger pull was made, and wether a ball is loaded or not. All of those decisions are part of one firing cycle. It has less ability to make 'substantial changes' to the firing cycle than the cocker and level 10 mag...

Although saying that, just like the cocker and level 10 mag, if a ball isn't ready to fire it can stop that shot being made. :)


Originally posted by hitech
In addition I believe that the rules should also state that only one firing cycle definition is allowed. The timing of ANY component of the cycle may not change from one cycle to the next (no "ramping" of the dwell).

Agreed when it comes to the dwell.

But obviously the time between shots is allowed to be varied ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by manike
So what's a firing cycle?

What happens when a paintball is fired from a marker. I'm not trying to be funny, if the marker does not fire a paintball then it wasn't a firing cycle. I have no problem with fire interuptus. ;) What I was saying is that the cycle that fires a paintball should ALWAYS be the same, within the confines of what is under the control of the marker. The marker does not have to fire if the trigger is pulled. ;)

Manike, you are someone people in the industry listen to. Although I think the changes I have outlined are important, I think the issue of "hair" triggers is far more important. If you can fire a marker by bumping it shouldn't it be considered illegal under the current rules? Is that enforcement something you are willing to lobby for? I think those markers are dangerous. Do you agree?

Thanks for your consideration in this matter. ;)

[manike]

Originally posted by hitech
Although I think the changes I have outlined are important, I think the issue of "hair" trigger is far more important. If you can fire a marker by bumping it shouldn't it be considered illegal under the current rules? Is that enforcement something you are willing to lobby for? I think those markers are dangerous. Do you agree?

I agree 100%... I was going to edit and quote you in the last post but forgot before I hit reply. :)

You will notice in the Millennium Tournament (European series) rules that a marker is illegal if you can make it fire by apply a force to it other than directly to the trigger.


11.4 Any marker which can be made to fire without applying a foce external to the marker directly to it's trigger is illegal

That means if you bump the gun and it goes bang then it is illegal. I expect this to be similar to NPPL rules since I know they are trying to sing off the same hymn sheet.

[hitech]

THANK YOU. :D

Any chance of getting you to push my other ideas? ;)

[WickedAirSportz]

Geez... for once Manike is on my side of the fence. :)

Let's face it, the marker technology is great now days compared to even just a year ago. I agree with Manike that we simply can not go backwards, we must move forward with technology if the sport is going to continue to evolve. If we could be shooting low energy plasma balls instead of paintball (that sure would end the cheating aspect) we would!

I think that the deliberate use of trigger bounce to obtain a higher rate of fire is a chicken **** way to play. If you aren't man enough to pull the trigger yourself, you should be a water boy. Markers will respond as fast as YOU can shoot. Work on your shooting skills if you can't handle being slow.

Illegal triggers should be banned... simple as that. Be a man (or woman) and rise to the occassion and play fair.

We have a debounce control to allow markers to become legal, when they otherwise could not be without changing the characteristics of the trigger. Some people like short triggers, and if we can let our customers have the trigger feel that they want AND still be completely legal, I would say that we are doing a service to our customers.

[hitech]

WAS,
You didn't come out and actually say it. Do you actively support:



11.4 Any marker which can be made to fire without applying a foce external to the marker directly to it's trigger is illegal

[WickedAirSportz]

Sure I did... illegal triggers should be banned.

I think the trigger needs to be pulled, not hit, struck, rubbed on, or any other variation. I think a genuine pull and release should be required.

Even when I am walking a trigger, I am pulling and releasing the trigger with each finger.

There is going to be an amendment shortly about the roller triggers that some are starting to use, where there is a roller bearing in the middle of trigger (between the two finger resting points). People are stroking the trigger up and down, and not pulling and releasing it. I think this should be illegal.

[hitech]

Great. Your going farther that I am suggesting, but that's not a problem. And I even have one of those rollers. ;)

[manike]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
I think this should be illegal.

Why?

Not trying to limit development and the future technology are you? :)

As long as it fits within the rules and is safe then it should be allowed.

Next thing you will be saying single finger triggers only and no 'walking'...

A trigger pull is defined as applying and releasing a force on the trigger.

Stroking up and down the trigger does this.

The main reasons to stop FA and burst modes was not to do with rof but to do with accidental discharges and double accidental blindings.

If people find ways to get faster rof safely and within the rules I'm all in favour of it.

[WickedAirSportz]

The roller fires two shots, not one... and that is the problem I have with it.

[manike]

Nope, it fires one shot for every application and release of force on the trigger... don't make me draw free body diagrams for you :)

You can do it with just about any double trigger. Not just ones with rollers.

[hitech]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
The roller fires two shots, not one... and that is the problem I have with it.

It only fires once per pull and release. It just allowes you to pull and release in two directions instead of one. Walking allowes you to fire twice also. Once per each finger.

[WickedAirSportz]

What about when there are two roller bearings, one at each "point" of the dual trigger? This in fact does fire twice each direction of the trigger stroke.

[manike]

Yep but it still only fires once for each application and release of force...

So it's legal.

And you can again get the same effect with a normal double trigger. I can get one shot on the nub going down, one shot on the bottom of the trigger and then one shot going up using the standard dragon trigger on my intimidator with NO trigger mods at all...

It's a completely stock trigger set up. :)

I don't think any rules that try to control 'how' someone pulls a trigger can ever be sensibly made or implemented by judges.

It's too open to judges discretion and how they see it which is a VERY BAD way to have a rule.

[hitech]

Hey manike, shouldn't you be asleep?! ;)

[manike]

Originally posted by hitech
Hey manike, shouldn't you be asleep?! ;)

Yep. But then I have never been good at doing things I 'should' :)

I do some of my best stuff late at night. I'm also hanging in the chat party.

[hitech]

I thought you left after Tom introduced you. Hope you don't have to get up early!

[manike]

Nope still there...

I'll get up as required. :)

[Digger]

How does the WAS board work in the GZ Intimidator, since the GZ does not have the LCD to control it.

[WickedAirSportz]

You can program the dwell, debounce, and eye mode via the trigger.

[Digger]

Very cool, thanks.

Also, what the hell are you doing up, go to sleep man.

Also, how are the Fields at LHC? You ever play in phoenix? We sometimes drive up to Breakout in Pho-town when gas prices are low =)

[WickedAirSportz]

I get 2-4 hours of sleep every day. Unfortunately, sleep is something that your body needs, but I think it is a waste of time. You can get a lot done in an 8 hour period.

We don't have a field in LHC. We make whatever we can until the city or county throws a fit and makes us move somewhere else.

We do go to Las Vegas and Phoenix a lot to practice and play in tournaments. SC Village and Tombstone are also favorites places to practice.

[Digger]

Tombstone is wonderful. I play there during the summer. They guys who own it are very cool. However, the fields are not as good as SC, but empty, so its a good balance.

Its just very hard to find quality teams to play for. You'd think two guys who have been playing for 12 years combined with experience in NPPL events wouldnt have problems finding a team...but alas, no one out here even plays NPPL. They're all about Pan Am, which is just too small scale for us.

[WickedAirSportz]

Yep, I had to join teams out of Los Angeles, Michigan, and Las Vegas.