Update on NPPL Trigger Bounce Rule

[AGD]

AO,

I just got off the phone with Dave Zincam who is the official NPPL Scrutinizer for trigger bounce. He has the authority to allow or boot any trigger he feels is breaking the rules.

He said that he had not had any problems with AGD guns and that it was the electros that were the big issue (as we suspected). He told me that the guns with large moving masses like the E-cockers were the biggest problems since the gun moved so much they shot automatically.

The ruling is still evolving but he did say that currently its looking like they will test guns to see that they do not bounce more than 3 times in a minute of shooting. I interpret this to mean that your marker is not rejected if it bounces once by itself.

He promised me a more comprehensive ruling by the end of next week after it passes the rules committe. He will publish the specific language on the net for all to see. I didn't get any sense that this was going to be an issue with our markers so please stand by for more details.

Thanks

AGD

[SlipknotX556]

Thanks for telling us tom.

[ezrunner]

How is Hybrid mode interpretted on the E/X mag? Meaning electro pull with rt push?

I would love an xmag in electro and mechanical only, but don't know how possible it would be to lock into just one position.

Fatman (Walt), cphilip (Phil), and I have been having conversations about this recently as I suspect most of the AGD crowd has.

I've been shooting a Raced Cocker for the past couple events and they are rediculously easy to setup to do this very thing.

Thanks for the update, this is a very pressing issue.

-rob

[manike]

I eagerly await Dave Zincam's ruling. It's something we have been discussing in relation to the Millennium Tournaments also, and it seems to be quite a complex issue right now.


Originally posted by ezrunner
I would love an xmag in electro and mechanical only, but don't know how possible it would be to lock into just one position.

It is possible, I made a prototype but haven't had time to finish/fine tune it completely yet.

[SlipknotX556]

Originally posted by manike
It is possible, I made a prototype but haven't had time to finish/fine tune it completely yet.


Manike, you make everything dont you?

[Cliffio]

maybe he could make you a legal sig:rolleyes:

[manike]

Sorry, I don't do photoshop... ask Webby, and thanks to Synreal for my Sig ;)

Slipknot I do like to make stuff. I get a lot of satisfaction from designing and problem solving. It's what I do best :)

I showed off that trigger on here before, you should be able to find it if you do a search. One of the reasons to make it was to get rid of hybrid mode so I just had manual and electric modes and less chance of getting bounce when playing tournaments :D

[cphilip]

Originally posted by ezrunner
I've been shooting a Raced Cocker for the past couple events and they are rediculously easy to setup to do this very thing.

And you know I am going to be watching you this weekend too. You might as well just leave that thing home! :D

[shade23]

Glad to hear about this!!!!
means I don't have to invest more in a worse marker!!!

[SlartyBartFast]

Sounds to me it's about time someone designed a mechanical test stand that fired guns under controlled conditions and passed/failed them.

[ezrunner]

You could do that with a modified Ransom Rest.

The Ransom Rest is a vise with a mechanism to absorb recoil. It returns to the same point of aim and is used to measure precision of handguns (precision = repeatability/grouping).

It has a lever to actuate the trigger mechanism. You just use a constant pressure on this lever and vary it to see if you find the sweet spot.

The problem with this is that part of the sweet spotting is that the human hand is not a vise and the rocking of the marker adds to the effect.

-rob

[PsychoBaller]

I wasn't worried anyways........ I knew TK would smooth talk the guy to let us continue using our guns... hehhehehe

~da baller

[rehme]

alright maybe now i can sleep at night:D good thing my gun some times dont bouce mad

[than205]

I'm sorry. I want to take the high ground, but I can't.
Mr. Drew totally disappoints me with his now obvious biased spin on the ruling.
It seems that the ruling deals more with his product and things of that likeness versus an RT valve.
I held no grudge towards him and his right to sell his products.
It's just sad that.... I'm speechless.

[Jerhew]

ya it seems that alot of us were put off by Mr. Drew's interpretation of the rules(posted under a different thread on this forum)
he basically said that all rt's were outlawed...
it's a relief to hear he is wrong
i guess some of us got all up in arms over nothing :D

[Yamz]

just one more question when it was said that there were not having problems with AGD markers was that to include the e/x-mags in hybrid mode

[Miscue]

Lovely. Looks like just the actually unsafe markers will be effected... just as it should be.

/me hugs his RTP.

[WickedAirSportz]

Mr. Drew totally disappoints me with his now obvious biased spin on the ruling.

There was no biasing at all. The rules were quite simple... no reactive triggers were allowed. It was brought up one time, and immediately shut down. There was no further discussion as this was an open and shut case. Those that had Tipmann markers had to pull their RT triggers out or lock them so the reactive portion did not work. A trigger pull is defined as a manual pull and release. By definition a reactive trigger is illegal... period.

I was there sitting with Dave, and we chatted through out the Huntington Beach event about what markers were violating the trigger bounce rules, and the E-Blade was by far the worst.

[ezrunner]

WickedAirSports:

What is your take on the electro cockers? Have you tuned any to get as close as posible without going reactive?

What markers do you see as problematic and how do we overcome this?

-rob

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz

There was no biasing at all. The rules were quite simple... no reactive triggers were allowed. It was brought up one time, and immediately shut down. There was no further discussion as this was an open and shut case. Those that had Tipmann markers had to pull their RT triggers out or lock them so the reactive portion did not work. A trigger pull is defined as a manual pull and release. By definition a reactive trigger is illegal... period.

I was there sitting with Dave, and we chatted through out the Huntington Beach event about what markers were violating the trigger bounce rules, and the E-Blade was by far the worst.

um okay but Tom just got done saying that none of the AGD markers will be affected...

so which is it?
was the no rt's a temporary ruling just for huntington?

[CaptainChops]

**me sighs** Guess I'll play the part of the dummie that hasn't played paintball in a really long time... Could somebody explain the whole trigger bounce thing? It'd be greatly appreciated...

[Jerhew]

basically it's setting up a gun so that if you put just the right amount of pressure on a trigger, it'll go full auto

this seems to happen more with electro's...apparently eblade cockers being one of the biggest offenders

i dunno for sure though...i shoot an rt and it doesnt do that:D

[Bob Mundon]

well, if you buy a trigger rebound kit for a real gun it shoots like full auto, but is still legal semi auto. i hope they dont ban hybrid mode for the xmag before i have a chance to try it lol

can anyone give me details on it? ive shot an xmag once but his tank was sucking fumes so i couldnt do anything reactive.

[srrdude]

so if i get an e-blade i cant use it in tournies? Correct me if im wrong, but isnt the trigger a whole lot like the emags trigger? And how are they goin to test this trigger bounce?

[Jerhew]

allow me to clarify
an eblade can be set up to bounce...but it apparently can also be set up legally
the reason i've heard of why the eblade is apparently a bigger offender is because the extra moving parts on a cocker...they cause more recoil which apparently makes it really easy to bounce
once again this is just what i've heard...

[srrdude]

and how are they gonna judge this? they gonna check EVERY game i play to make sure it doesnt bounce? and whos gonna get thhe final call on whether its legal or not? ive been workin on a custom e-blade and before i order the e-blade i better know how this is gonna work...

[WickedAirSportz]

and how are they gonna judge this?

No less than 6 different methods will be used.


they gonna check EVERY game i play to make sure it doesnt bounce?

At NPPL events, they certainly will. You don't chrono your own marker before going on to the field, the chrono ref does. This ref also checks for trigger bounce.


and whos gonna get thhe final call on whether its legal or not?

The chrono ref has the final say.

[Yamz]

this rule is starting to get complicated

[srrdude]

so im not the only one...

[WickedAirSportz]

At the Huntington Beach event, everything went very smoothly. The team on deck was at the check-in/chrono station. Each player handed the chrono ref their marker, and the marker was checked for bounce and velocity. If a marker is going to bounce, there is a 99% chance that the chrono ref can make it happen almost instantly. This process did not hold up any games during the event.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

yea, but how much paint is a ref gonna use to make sure it doesnt bounce?

[WickedAirSportz]

3 shots under 300 fps are required over the chrono. When I watched the refs chrono markers they use a few balls... probably 5 or 6 at most to check. When they grabbed my marker, they shot about 30 times... something about shooting 18bps during a game gets the refs attention. :)

[Cobrachs]

Ok at 18 bps how can you really tell if it isnt bouncing just a bit. Say hypothetically you can truly pull 15 balls but it has just enough bounce to go to 18. How would you really know. I have shot just about every type of marker available. I own a X-mag, a 2K2 Timmy with newly purchased Equalizer board, an E-Orracle, and a IR3 thats for sale. Funny the one thats for sale is the one that isnt being discussed in the bounce debate. Mr Drew I disagree with your ideas of bounce. A marker should be disqualified if it goes into a runaway mode. I believe guys that claim these real high bps figures have a little bit o bounce, not necessarily intentional but it is probabley there and very dificult to detect. Just my opinion

[WickedAirSportz]

Ok at 18 bps how can you really tell if it isnt bouncing just a bit.

Because I can pull this fast with just about any marker, and without any air.

[Cobrachs]

A little defenive there, my thoughts we not aimed at you, it was HYPOTHETICALL. But I am curios if its cycling that fast how does one really know that there isnt a small amount of bounce. I am not trying to attack you, in fact sometimes I think that some people may be a little tough on you,but I just dont believe a bouncing trigger and reactive trigger are one in the same, which when I read your posts I get the impression you do. We have differences of opinion. The 18 bps was just the number you used, and I borrowed

[WickedAirSportz]

I certainly don't think reactive and bouncing are the same.. in fact, they are two seperate issues completely. Reactive has to do with the trigger being pushed back, which makes the release no longer "manual" as stated in the rule. Trigger bounce is either electrical or mechanical (recoil), either of which are illegal.

In my case, I know how much bounce is actually occurring because I use about 1/4" of throw. Its easy setup an optical sensor and count along with the mechanical switch to determine if there was legitimate pulls or bounces.

[Cobrachs]

I realize that they are still working out some of the rules but was there any written adjustment to the 2003 NPPL rules avilable on the NPPl website. When I read the rules that i have there is no true definition of manual as you put it but only pull and release. I am looking at rule 6.31. Things may have changed I am just looking for some official language of the new rules

[Cobrachs]

Also when you say mechanical switch do you mean by some type of shot counter attached to the switch, whether its the built in one or some type of add on that measures the times that the switch was closed and then opened. I would think you would still see the same number of balls fired as you would cycles of the switch, becuase just because your finger didnt pull it doesnt mean the trigger didnt close the switch. I may not understand exactly how you meant

[WickedAirSportz]

A pull and release implies manual, since a trigger is operated by your fingers.

[Yamz]

I dont understand how a reactive trigger is not manual because its the same thing as having a spring return the trigger except you dont have the same force pushing against it all the time other than that difference it is still a manual trigger in order for a trigger to be manual by the way you describe it you would have to pull the trigger to fire and use you finger to pull the trigger forward again to reset it

[ezrunner]

I think what Mr. Drew was referring to was that if you apply the actuation force to a reactive trigger then the trigger is automatically returned.

Let's say it takes 6 lbs to pull an RT trigger, but the trigger is pushed with 10 lbs back. If you only apply 6 lbs then you did not have to release the trigger manually for it to return. If you apply 8lbs of pressure you get a high rate of fire.

-rob

(BTW these #'s were picked out of convience to illustrate a point, I did not measure the pull on my RT)

[Cobrachs]

But that is not in the current rules, it says

A trigger pull requires an exertion of
force by the finger on the trigger and a release of force by the finger on the trigger during
every firing cycle.

on a Rt you must pull and release , if not that is run away mode, which should not be allowed

I really wish I could read the new interpretation of the rules because it currently does not say how the trigger gets returned to a stationary position. There is no use of the term "manual" at all. I would rather not assume or imply what it means but actually read the current rules as written, I realize Mr Drew you are not the one to make final judgement or definition, so please dont feel that my disagreement with you is disrespect

[ezrunner]

The word that catches you is release.

That is where they could get the Retro Valve guns.

I am an AGD proponent, so I'm not bashing the guns. What I am trying to do is have an academic discussion of the issue and how others could evaluate the statements in such a way as to keep the mag off the field.

I don't think the mags are the problems and I don't think the rule is currently enforced directly against them.

I do think that with a blanket enforcement we may need to look at who are shooting mags on the field and how they are setup.

My feeling is that the safest thing to do is setup emags so they work electro & manual only, then setup the RT/X valve to not have bounce on those guns.

-rob

[Cobrachs]

I dont believe the word release catches anything because you have to release the RT otherwise it is set up improperly and it is running in a run away mode. If you pull the trigger and maintain pressure on the trigger it will not completely reset. On a properly woking RT there is a

"release of force by the finger on the trigger during every firing cycle."

and that is exactly what the current rules available from the NPPL say

[WickedAirSportz]

The point of the trigger rule specifically stating "release of force by the finger" is to eliminate anything that pushes the trigger forward with substantially more force than the pull.

I realize that this is a very gray area, and it does need to be defined.

The rule was going after any device sticking out of the grip frame, physically pushing the trigger forward.

[Cobrachs]

I agree the rule is very gray, but all triggers have some type of return device so the rule must specify how much force can be applied to the trigger by this device. As the rule is currently witten I honestly believe the RT is legal, I believe the term reactive is getting a bad rap, I mean the reactive mode on the old Timmy was no where close to being anything like the RT Pro

[WickedAirSportz]

Yeah, its going to be a tough call. You guys can see what they are getting at. They don't want something where you can just hold the trigger lightly and the return force exceeds the pull force allowing that "sweet spot" (which is illegal).

[Cobrachs]

That is what I am saying, on a normal RT you wont be able to sweet spot it, I think the fact that the return pressure is greater than that of the average spring, and that it is a rod not a spring is irrelevent, but if you can sweet spot it its illegal. My emag wont sweet spot in manual mode, which is the same as an RT Pro. Some people will modify the marker so they can sweet spot and that shoud not be allowed, but a normal Reactive Trigger Pro should not be banned because of the term reactive

[ezrunner]

This post is two part:
Cobrachs: I'm not saying your emag is illegal.

Please look at some other RT valved guns. With a retro valve and an adjustable input nitrogen tank you can dial the return force of the trigger to the point that it sweet spots very very easily.

Let's keep the discussion going without getting bogged down in the religion of one marker system or another.

Mr. Jim Drew: first, thank you for taking the time to become embroiled in this thread. I'm sure that you could be working on your newest board or upgrade.

To Jim:
The rates of fire we see on the field rarely top 6 - 10 bps. So when I do see someone shooting abnormally fast I do tend to check their marker if I am reffing. If I'm playing I smile cause they're wasting paint :)

Do you "walk" your trigger or just vibrate your wrist?

On another note, the mass that is moved per shot in each marker does affect how that marker (electro) is sweet spotted. If a player is using the sweet spot in his marker even though the pull is long, is that a problem?

Once you learn a marker system you can hold it to get the response you want even if the trigger has some slop on either end. That slop would make it more difficult for someone not attuned to that marker to find the "sweet spot".

Any ideas on how we work with or around that?

We all know that there will soon be some other way to get high ROF. It is just a matter of time.

-rob

[Cobrachs]

But thats what this thread started about, AGD guns and trigger bounce. Yes you can make a RT bounce like mad, but we should not ban them all because its possible, we need new rules for testing them. I can bounce my Timmy with Equalier like crazy too, but is that Jim Drews fault, no I have the option of adjusting my marker to my liking. My point with my emag was that not all guns associated with the term REACTIVE are bouncing, and by association illegal. Mr Drew stated the rule I mentioned was put in place in part of guns which have a rod or other device adding return pressure, and as far as I know the only ones are the Mags and RT Tippman. Well Im not really concened with the Tippman.

I also asked some other questions related to the topic but not specific to any gun and similar to the questions you asked but didnt really get any clarification

[WickedAirSportz]

I walk the trigger, even when firing single shots I alternate fingers... just a habit I guess.

Some are confused here. There are two different subjects being mixed together, and they need to be separated.

1. Bouncing
2. Reactive trigger

Nothing has been discussed yet by me about bouncing mag triggers. A mechanical trigger is difficult to bounce compared to an electronic trigger.

What I have been talking about is the rule concerning something pushing the trigger forward (other than a spring, magnet,etc.) Something with considerable force that moves your finger forward when you relax it (not actually releasing it).

[Dayspring]

But Mr. Drew, that's how a mag works. The trigger rod pushes the trigger forward. RT or not.

The RT pushes the trigger back to complete lock of the sear. THAT'S the firing cycle. A bouncing RT does not. See the difference?

[WickedAirSportz]

Yes, I understand that. The NPPL will need to understand that and address the issue.

As I stated before, "reactive" is equated to what the Tippman auto-response trigger does.

I guess the term "reactive" is something that scares everyone. In the mag sense of the word, it means just resetting the trigger position (just like a spider or any other type of marker). Reactive for electros usually means a shot on every pull and release.

[Duke Henry]

Does anyone else find it funny that the NPPL rules on "reactivity" are based on a non-"reactive" trigger? I mean, the Tippmann RT (which I own, and can easily get to go full auto and agree it should be illegal) is not called a "reactive" trigger. It is a "response" trigger.

The Mag RT is a "reactive" trigger.

So, by saying that the "reactive" issue is in reference to the Tippmann RT just seems a bit wacky to me.

If anything, it should be the "response" issue.

:D

[Yamz]

since we all pretty much agree that trigger bounce, reactive triggers, and responce triggers are all diffrent when is NPPL going to see this and clear up this issue is now my question of the day

Side note who cares about the responce trigger on a tippman it still cant reach the extream rate of fire that counld be looked at as a safty issue

[Dubstar112]

If its one shot for one pull, wouldnt a short stroke be illegal? Cause its technically not a full release, and it has a probability to shoot a ball...

Reactiveness... VS Responsiveness... You said the tippy trigger has autoresponse..? Care to explain? Im guessing that was a typo..




As I stated before, "reactive" is equated to what the Tippman auto-response trigger does.


Definatley NPPL needs to clear this up in some way. Somehow I doubt they will, especially seeing that it takes them this long to bring the issue up.. (from my understanding..)