34bps?! What?! [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

shartley

10-30-2002, 06:36 PM

LOL That is because we are dealing with different issues. I would not doubt that a marker could “cycle” at those speeds, but that was not what was being said, to my understanding. It sounded like they were saying they were SHOOTING at those speeds. And they even mention having “mad fingers” or something like that, which would indicate them actually PULLING at those speeds…. BS!!!!!

If that is NOT what they were talking about, I will openly apologize….. but from the skimming I did, it did not look like they were simply stating cycle speeds, but instead their “shooting speeds” which are very much different. How fast a marker “cycles” while not actually shooting anything is not that impressive for the most part. At least not to me. How it does with PAINT, is what matters.

And as for Jim Drew…. LOL He is an idiot. Yes, he is very intelligent (I will give him that), but still an idiot. He is just sore because he could not back up his own claims here on AO or anyplace else. He is used to dealing with other idiots…. Something AO is not known for. ;)

bofh

10-30-2002, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by magman007
i swear, im going to have an anurism after WAS attacking our site. jeesus im so angry, i am going to loose it

WAS attacking us about credibity, is much like Salm complaining that the people he hit were wiping.

Just laugh and move on.

shartley

10-30-2002, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by bofh

WAS attacking us about credibity, is much like Salm complaining that the people he hit were wiping.

Just laugh and move on.
LOLROF :D

magman007

10-30-2002, 06:43 PM

heh thanks for my new pbn sig both

bofh

10-30-2002, 07:04 PM

The guys other there, never said they were putting paint, or even cycling that fast... they're just comparing numbers on how high they can make the board register.

Marauder's post clearly said he was using "simulate" mode. and holding the marker in a way you really couldn't use in a game. He never every claimed, it cycled or shot paint.

It seems to me that some PBN people have a chip on the shoulder, when it comes to AO. But knee-jerk reactions like this don't help us any.

zads27

10-30-2002, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by shartley
Too darn funny…… that is why those kinds of posts are NEVER seen on AO.

I wouldn't say that.. there ARE some posts like that on AO..
..but they get debunked and shot down like a hot air balloon vs. a M51.

shartley

10-30-2002, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by zads27

I wouldn't say that.. there ARE some posts like that on AO..
..but they get debunked and shot down like a hot air balloon vs. a M51.
I stand corrected. ;) So correct... :D

314159

10-30-2002, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Brian68mag
You would need a scuba tank to keep up, no air system could do it.
Also the bolt is not running a full cycle, you can see it moving.

the only reason the a mag had to be fead from a scuba tank to cycle at 30 cycles a second, is that the reg on the mag is not charging the air chamber whenever the sear is down. that is like (20-30 milliseconds) X (your # of shots / second). so at 30 cycles per second, the air chamber is not recharging 40 to 60% of the time.

the intimidator can recharge it's air chamber (whatever you want to call the area in front of the valve) 100% of the time while it is firing, this let's it get by with an air system that an automag would not be able to get by with at the same firing cyclic rate.

even though the mag may be able to cycle the bolt faster, it is hurting itself with it's restrictions on recharging.

Originally posted by shartley
And there is no loading device that could feed that anyway.

a warp feed, with the electronics removed, with a higher voltage than the warp electronics can handle, being fed directly to the warp motor (something around 18volts) would give them a good firing speed.

magman007

10-30-2002, 07:22 PM

interesting note, i love the timmy avatars, theye moving a little slowly dont you think?

shartley

10-30-2002, 07:33 PM

314159-
LOL That I am sure would work.... I guess what I meant was Hopper Device, not "loader device"... my bad.

I don't think however that they were USING that... ;)

Jack & Coke

10-30-2002, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by magman007
interesting note, i love the timmy avatars, theye moving a little slowly dont you think?

I'm the one who created most of those avatars (almost 90 avatars total).

They apprear to move slowly only because I wanted the animation to be smooth. Not choppy.

Most have 4 unqiue frames that sequence like this:

Frame 1
Frame 2
Frame 3
Frame 4
Frame 3
Frame 2
repeat

So there's 6 frames cycling. Any less and it would have a cheesy 'strobe light' flickering animation. Any more and it would usually exceed the allowable file size for an avatar gif on PBNATION.

magman007

10-30-2002, 08:16 PM

Jack, i appoligize if i had offended you...... I hadnt realized that you put so much effort into them. I take back my rebuttle

freek133

10-30-2002, 08:22 PM

the hot rod of all guns being disputed:mad: , we need to put an end to this!!!!!!!!!!!
butters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need the emag doing 42cps, can you do it?!? :D

Jack & Coke

10-30-2002, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by magman007
Jack, i appoligize if i had offended you...... I hadnt realized that you put so much effort into them. I take back my rebuttle

It's all good...:)

Besides, I'm a little burnt out on all the crazy requests...

FeelTheRT

10-30-2002, 08:30 PM

Timmy w/ Equilizer cycling at 34cps (http://www.wickedairsportz.com/products/cycle1.mpg)

TRIAD

10-30-2002, 08:32 PM

Couple of questions:

1. What does this WAS board do?

2. How are they using 13+ bps in tourneys, did I miss something? When did the caps go away? And why can't I go ReTro valve full-reactive or close to it when they can hit these "speeds"

3. How would they humanly pull at those speeds ( I KNOW it is impossible).

halB

10-30-2002, 08:45 PM

nothing but trigger bounce. id like to see a person hit 15 bps constantly for 5 seconds.

Koosh

10-30-2002, 09:41 PM

The WAS board supposedly "fixes" alot of problems the original Bob Long boards had. I don't own a timmy, so I don't know.

It supposedly allows the gun to cycle much faster, along with being programmable, so people can change the way it fires. Think of it kind of like an Emagnum board for the timmy, only I don't THINK it allows full auto, does it?

Jim Drew had said that the board is capable of firing something like 140 cycles per second, of course it will NEVER be able to do that, it is just capable of doing it, assuming the bolt, ram, hammer, etc. can do it as well. It basically removes any electronics based shootdown.

I could be wrong, as I am not entirely familiar with WAS's products, but from what I read I think this is a fair description.

Butterfingers

10-30-2002, 10:35 PM

thats the old video can anybody confirm? it jumped between 28-32 bps inconsistently.

cledford

10-30-2002, 11:14 PM

I checked out one of the videos at one point and saw 22cps if I remember correctly.

Jim isn't likely to post videos anytime soon to clear this up. He'd like everyone to think that "the customer comes first" and that he is to busy to "waste time" producing videos that prove what everyone already knows. We all know he is full of BS and that is the real reason he's not posting one. Jim will argue with you all day - but NEVER post real data. I suggest you stop arguing with him and continue to challenge him to show proof. That is the only way to deal with him.

I challenge ANYONE who thinks they can pull over 13 (using any method except turning down debounce) to POST A VIDEO. I can provide an answer in 15 MINUTES.

-Calvin

freek133

10-30-2002, 11:27 PM

what would a debounce be in equivalent to the emags trigger, the return magnet? Im having some problemse understanding that:confused:

314159

10-30-2002, 11:31 PM

there is contact bounce present in all switches, when the 2 metal plates in the switch make contact, they bounce off of each other a little bit. this can be recorded as a couple trigger pulls.

http://dbserv.maxim-ic.com/tarticle/images/A212Fig03.gif

because the hal effect sensor in the emag trigger has no contacts to bounce, it does not effect it.

Fred

10-30-2002, 11:42 PM

This just in! Scotch Tape on your finger reduces friction and gives you +2 bps!

do you have scotch tape on YOUR fingers??? :rolleyes:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?threadid=145544&perpage=21&pagenumber=2

what a fricking joke...

---Fred

bornl33t

10-31-2002, 05:21 AM

Yeah? well, my mom can take your mom... and don't even start with my dog... he'll waste your dog

manike

10-31-2002, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by Heat
Yeah? well, my mom can take your mom... and don't even start with my dog... he'll waste your dog

One of the best T-shirts at the World Cup was on a four year old kiddie and it said "My daddy bunkered your daddy" :)

shartley

10-31-2002, 07:54 AM

Well… I would like to say to all who were in Chat last nigh… THANKS!

I think we all needed that comic relief…. Even if it was at WAS’s expense…. But (no pun intended) he truly deserves it. ;)

I have not seen anything quite so funny and actually thought provoking as our bfps debate.

Again… thanks. :D

Now…

Originally posted by cledford
I checked out one of the videos at one point and saw 22cps if I remember correctly.

Jim isn't likely to post videos anytime soon to clear this up. He'd like everyone to think that "the customer comes first" and that he is to busy to "waste time" producing videos that prove what everyone already knows. We all know he is full of BS and that is the real reason he's not posting one. Jim will argue with you all day - but NEVER post real data. I suggest you stop arguing with him and continue to challenge him to show proof. That is the only way to deal with him.

I challenge ANYONE who thinks they can pull over 13 (using any method except turning down debounce) to POST A VIDEO. I can provide an answer in 15 MINUTES.

-Calvin
But if you notice, later in that SAME post he states that he started arguments here on AO just to watch us demand proof and that he had the proof all along on video……. Because he NEVER states anything without first having proof.

Hold on… doesn’t that directly contradict his statement about not having a video showing proof that he made earlier? And for the reasons he gives earlier as well?

Jim is a snake oil salesman….. To me, he has only proven to be a good salesman, nothing more. But he likes to try to make the coloration between his product selling, and it actually DOING what he claims it does… and sorry, it does not work like that. Good sales does not mean “good product”, or even one that does what it is suppose to do.

Most of us know the deal about Jim, and his past history. We can only hope that the Paintball Industry will soon be part of HIS history as well.. like the other industries he no longer deals with (or is it the other way around? ;)).

WhyIsItUpsideDown?

10-31-2002, 04:58 PM

I know Jim is bs'ing now.
Jim had past history?
:confused:
Not defending him but, I like to know.

Clare

11-01-2002, 12:45 PM

One of the best T-shirts at the World Cup was on a four year old kiddie and it said "My daddy bunkered your daddy"

:D

magman007

11-01-2002, 01:12 PM

Lol sam.... wemember Wicked Air has multiple connotations now!!!

bornl33t

11-01-2002, 03:21 PM

yeah, I'm just cool like that :D :D :D

Scootyd

11-01-2002, 05:03 PM

whew, just finished with that thread and I am very dissapointed. All of that reading and all I wanted to see was sam come in and tear up old68.:(

bofh

11-01-2002, 05:11 PM

I'm sure Sam has better things to do than Wrestle with Pigs.

shartley

11-01-2002, 05:30 PM

Sorry…

I did not post anything because I think it would have shattered their Universe… and you all know how I HATE to do that. ;) It is sort of like not waking up someone who is sleepwalking.. the shock can at times be too great.

One thing I would suggest is that they first at least familiarize themselves with the subject matter before posting about it. I am not saying they need to know ALL about something, but at least know SOMETHING about it. Old68 is so ignorant about Mags that I actually could not decide if I should have been upset with him, pity him, or just laugh at him.

PBN….:rolleyes: What are you going to do? ;) Of course that is also why WAS hangs out there. :D Like shooting fish in a barrel.

SlartyBartFast

11-01-2002, 05:56 PM

I refuse to be even remotely impressed by any paintball marker cycling at *ANY* speed without paint.

Let's see the WAS board shooting 20 bps with paint and chrono the balls to see how consistent the whole thing is.

I'd like to see chrono numbers on the EMag at 20 bps as well.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 01:55 AM

WAS lied, and was called on it, and thus left, because we HATE hype and LOVE data. He showed nothing, and blatantly lied to us.

This is one of my more favorite quotes from the AO forum.

Just because you can't understand how a product works, does not mean the explaination given is wrong... or proof does not exist:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1241864#post1241864

There will be more proof coming, as I sit it fitting.

The 34bps is actual dry fired shots, not some make believe number. I welcome anyone with an Intimidator and Equalizer to try it out yourself... hold the marker upside down and run your finger(s) up and down the trigger "knubs" at a high rate of speed. It's not magic. :)

joeyjoe367

12-10-2002, 02:23 AM

umm... dude, i don't see any proof in that thread.. just a bunch of guys sayin' your poop smells great.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 09:25 AM

You must have missed the chrono test info.

shartley

12-10-2002, 09:48 AM

Not THIS again….. :rolleyes:

Haven’t you guys learned? No matter what is said, it will always come down to YOU not understanding something. Everyone who does not take Jim at his word is either ignorant, or “missing something”. (As stated AGAIN by Jim.)

Also “proof” is only provided as Jim sees fitting. How convenient.

And yes, take your markers and hold them upside down and run your fingers over the trigger nubs…. After all, we ALL know that this is how we shoot our markers during a game. ;) Sorry, but if it does not have a “practical application” I don’t want to hear about it…. because it really does not matter for the player on the field who relies on “practical applications” to increase his game.

Of course, we know there are plenty out there that don’t care if it is practical or not, and will be all mesmerized by it all…. I am not however, one of them.

Then again, there are also folks who will defend to the death that David Blane(sp?) actually levitates, even though we know it is a trick, and what we “see” is not always the real explanation for an event happening. I know personally, I think it is a great trick, but would get insulted if David Blane(sp?) tried to tell me to my face that he actually IS levitating. ;) But who knows, maybe his shoes have AI in them…..

MagDog68

12-10-2002, 10:37 AM

Here we go with the "my gonads can smack your gonads around" crap again.

WAS - my question is how many balls can you shoot per second? Not how many cycles or partial cycles or holing the gun upside down. Not taping your finger or peeing on a flower or eating green eggs and ham. How many balls will come out of the long metal tube and hit a target 75 feet away in a 2 second period? If you don't say 60 balls in a 2 second period, go back to PBN and play with the kiddies, because its a matter of record that the Emagnum can SHOOT that fast. Who gives a rats arse how fast the thing can cycle if it can't shoot???

~Fred

PS I am not technically inclined at all - that is why I own a Mag!!!

cledford

12-10-2002, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by joeyjoe367
umm... dude, i don't see any proof in that thread.. just a bunch of guys sayin' your poop smells great.

There was no chrono test info in the thread you linked. Some guy who had serious issues even spelling claimed to have conducted some chrono tests with multiple markers - but gave no specifics or measurable data. (If I missed it please cut-n-post here) Furthermore, the equipment he claims to use is incomplete and not very specific either. It caused me to question whether he had a chrono at all. If he does I'd like to know the type and model number.

Jim, you'll have to do better then dig up some guy in the Impulse forum to back up your hogwash.

-Calvin

P.S. If you're such a "rocket scientist" why can't you do your own testing and post the data, equipment, and conditions?

SlartyBartFast

12-10-2002, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
You must have missed the chrono test info.

Then link us to it.:rolleyes:

What a crock. You can never give a straight answer or back up your statements, can you.:mad:

If there is data post it. If you have proof provide it. Otherwise, you'd look far more intelligent if you just stayed quiet.

You start looking pretty ignorant when you can't even answer direct, intelligent questions without being evasive or defensive.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 12:18 PM

Calvin,

That "some guy" is one of the more respected Impulse distributors, someone who has clout in that marker arena.

Yes, I can in fact set up equipment and provide you a bunch of numbers. They obviously are different from what you posted, so where does that leave us? I was waiting for someone else with a PACT chrono to provide some information, and that happened, so I thought I would point that out. No matter what I say, you guys here are never going to believe me - even if the end result is 100% accurate.

I did find it interesting that Mags actually increase velocity at high rates of fire... something that I did not know. I wonder how legal that is for tournament use?!

shartley

12-10-2002, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
I did find it interesting that Mags actually increase velocity at high rates of fire... something that I did not know. I wonder how legal that is for tournament use?!
Actually it is VERY legal for tournament use. If you crono your Mag correctly it compensates for that increase in velocity at higher rates of fire.

(Added: Good reading for those who don't know about the RT or Crono procedures.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57030 )

SlartyBartFast

12-10-2002, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
I did find it interesting that Mags actually increase velocity at high rates of fire... something that I did not know. I wonder how legal that is for tournament use?!

There's a chrono procedure that ensures that the chrono is taken at the highest fps.

Don't start questioning the legality of other products when the manufacturer points out the way the product works adn the correct way to use it quite clearly.

I'd like to know how legal low DeBounce settings are for tournaments. A marker is only supposed to shoot one ball per pull. Any ball launched as a result of a switch bounce clearly violates that rule.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 12:36 PM

I think you guys are very confused about what the Debounce setting on the Equalizer does. Let me explain this...

Some people like to have an extremely short trigger pull. The problem with this is that the recoil from the marker's pneumatics can cause the trigger to oscillate, allowing more than one shot per pull. By adjusting your Debounce setting, you can "dial out" that problem completely. Conversely, you can take a trigger with a lot of throw and make it more sensative.

With any electronic marker, you can cause a trigger to generate more than one shot per pull by deliberately setting it up that way. The Equalizer's Debounce offers a method to make your otherwise illegal trigger setup perfectly legal for tournament use.

Debounce, Dwell, and Reset are all locked out in COMPETITION (tournament) mode. Bill Cookston saw more than 200 players at the World Cup with Equalizers, and not a single player was pulled (or even warned to my knowledge) for having multiple shots on a single pull.

bofh

12-10-2002, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Yes, I can in fact set up equipment and provide you a bunch of numbers.

But of course you never have...

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
I did find it interesting that Mags actually increase velocity at high rates of fire... something that I did not know. I wonder how legal that is for tournament use?!

And this one little quote is what I love about you, Mr. Drew. I love how a such an intelligent man can jump into anything he put his mind too and still look like a complete idiot.

BTAutoMag

12-10-2002, 12:41 PM

lol so now we are know as the "automag people"

he he he

thats going in my sig

cledford

12-10-2002, 12:43 PM

"That "some guy" is one of the more respected Impulse distributors, someone who has clout in that marker arena."

I don't care how respected someone is - that doesn't prove anything - facts and data do. He can say whatever he wants - the Pact will print out the data, let's that. It will speak for it's self.

"I was waiting for someone else with a PACT chrono to provide some information, and that happened, so I thought I would point that out."

As soon as Pact opens I will call them and see how many shots per second the chrono can do. Since they don't say at the website I'm a little concerned about whether it can actually even record the strings - we'll see.

"I did find it interesting that Mags actually increase velocity at high rates of fire... something that I did not know. I wonder how legal that is for tournament use?! "

Very tournament legal. The "shoot-up" is well known and documented. RT owners/judges know the process for chrono to insure no hot shots. Once again, how is it that you claim to know so much about paintball and not know this? RT shootup is nothing new having been around for say 4 or 5 years now... Your narrow scope of knowledge about paintball in general raises it's head again and again. I don't expect you to know everything about every gun but when there are like what 3 to 4 general valve types in the world, most in the "industry" have at least a working knowledge...

manike

12-10-2002, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
By adjusting your Debounce setting, you can "dial out" that problem completely.

A lot of people are also using it to dial in bounce and effectively cheat. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Bill Cookston saw more than 200 players at the World Cup with Equalizers, and not a single player was pulled (or even warned to my knowledge) for having multiple shots on a single pull.

Actually many users were stopped from using Equalisers at the World Cup because of Trigger bounce. I know the Chrono judge who stopped them. And that was on just one field. I'm not sure but I think he said something about stopping 3-4 people on just one team because there was too much trigger bounce. I ought to go find him and get a statement. :D

manike

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 12:50 PM

I have stated before that I know little about the Mag family. It is not part of the industry that I am dealing with, or likely to ever deal with. The Mag is not currently a marker that is widely used by tournament players, which where my focus lies. I do see a large number of Mags in the rec ball scene.

I can tell you when refs are hired for $100 a day "no experience necessary" (such as at the World Cup this year), special chrono procedures would not occur.

cledford

12-10-2002, 12:56 PM

Jim tends to throw names like Bob Long, Bill Cookston and others around to lend credence to his statements. They never seem to speak for themselves though...

-Calvin

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 12:57 PM

A lot of people are also using it to dial in bounce and effectively cheat.

Then those people should be pulled... just like those people that set their trigger up to short and recoil causes multiple shots.

I was at the cup for 10 days, and chatted with refs, players, and Bill Cookston. Not a single person ever stated to me that there was a problem with ANYONE having an illegal trigger. If you know Bill Cookston, you KNOW he would have been jumping down my throat for even just one player being illegal.

If a ref stops a player from going on to the field because of an illegal trigger setup (however the cause), then the ref did their job.

cledford

12-10-2002, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
I have stated before that I know little about the Mag family. It is not part of the industry that I am dealing with, or likely to ever deal with. The Mag is not currently a marker that is widely used by tournament players, which where my focus lies. I do see a large number of Mags in the rec ball scene.

I can tell you when refs are hired for $100 a day "no experience necessary" (such as at the World Cup this year), special chrono procedures would not occur.

Saying you know little and care not to know about the mag family is exactly my point. That is like saying the rotary engines are superior so you know about them but not other combustion types of engines.

Are you saying that you only know apple/macs because that is where your business lies and you don't need to know anything about PCs or say, Sun/UNIX workstations?

The point is that you can't be a "rocket scientist" about anything unless you know something about the entire field. Take that moniker down from your web-site and I'll shut up. Otherwise I'll say it again - you've got a good knowledge of electronics and managed to work that into the Timmy. By association with people like Jim Shuler, Bob and Terry (BLast) you've picked up some mechanical and pneumatic knowledge along the way - but not enough to be an expert at anything yet. Not knowing how major familys of marker work is a big gap in your understanding of the field.

-Calvin

Marek

12-10-2002, 01:35 PM

I have stated before that I know little about the Mag family. It is not part of the industry that I am dealing with, or likely to ever deal with.

Im sure members of AO are crushed at your decision not to explore the realm of Mags. I for one will have sleepness nights of crying from the loss. Besides, I'm not too sure if you could last AO for much longer.

SlartyBartFast

12-10-2002, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
The problem with this is that the recoil from the marker’s pneumatics can cause the trigger to oscillate, allowing more than one shot per pull. By adjusting your Debounce setting, you can "dial out" that problem completely. Conversely, you can take a trigger with a lot of throw and make it more sensative.

Absolute balderdash. Unless of course you’re just making up words as you go along and inventing new meanings for existing ones. Switch bounce has nothing to do with pneumatics or set up or the length of the pull. IF you are truly intelligent with respect to electronics, you know this already.

For the benefit of those that WAS is trying to hoodwink: Switches by their nature never provide simple square wave signals. If the circuit monitoring the switch is sensitive enough, multiple on/off signals will be seen by the circuit every time the switch is opened or closed. Debounce circuits or settings allow the system to ignore the ’noise’ generated by the switch and react only to ’legitimate’ switch state changes.

Pneumatic recoil does not make a switch bounce.

With any electronic marker, you can cause a trigger to generate more than one shot per pull by deliberately setting it up that way. The Equalizer’s Debounce offers a method to make your otherwise illegal trigger setup perfectly legal for tournament use.

Hmm. The debounce let’s you make an illegal trigger (which according to WAS is due to trigger pull length) legal. But the setting is locked out in competition mode. So if you have a short trigger, in competition mode it will be illegal because you can’t adjust debounce. Pure and Utter Rubbish! Sounds like circular logic to me (if there’s any logic there).

Debounce is why few on AO will believe the bps numbers that electros will display. A low debounce and a quickly agitated trigger can produce any sort of wild result. It says nothing about how fast the users can REALLY pull the trigger and also says nothing about the gun because depending on how the circuit is wired the gun hasn’t even necessarily fired at that rate.

The only reliable method to determine bps is analyzing a recording or using the output from a chrono.

Debounce, Dwell, and Reset are all locked out in COMPETITION (tournament) mode. Bill Cookston saw more than 200 players at the World Cup with Equalizers, and not a single player was pulled (or even warned to my knowledge) for having multiple shots on a single pull.

I think that’s probably simply because nobody has figured a way to test the equipment yet. Seeing what goes on at tournaments, I wouldn’t ever hold them up as an example. Manike also seems to have dispelled that little bit of self-deception anyways (but it would be nice to hear it from the mouth of the Ref involved). It’s a little like the BPS cap. Nobody gets called for having too high a rate of fire, but how would you prove it if you tried to call someone on it?

Personally, I think it’s wrong to allow electros at tournaments. It is impossible to ensure that the boards, software, and settings are all legal and not adjusted during the tournament. But let’s start another thread if we want to discuss that.

In another post by WickedAirSportz I can tell you when refs are hired for $100 a day "no experience necessary" (such as at the World Cup this year), special chrono procedures would not occur.

LOL! The proof that the Equalizer is tournament legal is that you didn’t see anyone pulled for illegal triggers. You hold up the organizer and officials of the world cup as shining examples as far as policing YOUR product goes, yet you try to insult/disparage Mag users because the underpaid ill-informed refs and judges can’t be trusted to make sure well known procedures are respected.You can’t have it both ways. With this kind of logic you couldn’t argue your way out of a wet paper bag.

So what’s the procedure to reliably tell if a trigger is illegal and using switch bounce to achieve high rates of fire with more than one shot per pull?
What’s the tournament procedure to permanently lock programable settings/ensure that the software is legal?
What’s the tournament procedure to ensure that software or modes are not altered mid game?

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 02:13 PM

Pneumatic recoil does not make a switch bounce.

Huh? You must be kidding.

The Debounce feature of the Equalizer does not handle just your typical switch debouncing, it also is a delay period required after the switch oscillation stops to prevent the recoil from repulling the trigger.

cledford

12-10-2002, 02:17 PM

Well, just got off the phone with PACT and they stated (as I expected) that their chronos (all models) CANNOT record more then 1 shot per second. The explanation (since they are ballistics chronos) is to avoid false readings from smoke or ejecta (like shotgun wads).

Well, Jim if your Impulse expert really did use a PACT then there is a problem - but I think we knew that when you dredged him up from another "gun family" forum.

Once again, where's your proof?

-Calvin

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 02:21 PM

So what’s the procedure to reliably tell if a trigger is illegal and using switch bounce to achieve high rates of fire with more than one shot per pull?

Bill Cookston grabs your gun, and if he can get it to fire more than 2 shots (on ocassion) then it is not legal. At the World Cup he allowed 2 shots due to marker recoil, and only if it rarely occured.

It just amazes me that people in the Automag forum seem to insist that they know better how my own products work. The Debounce works exactly as I described, like it or not.

I have numerous years experience developing pneumatics for the special effects industry, as well as designing hardware/software for such companies as Amblin Entertainment, Industrial Lights and Magic, and others. I am not new to this game.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 02:24 PM

Well, just got off the phone with PACT and they stated (as I expected) that their chronos (all models) CANNOT record more then 1 shot per second. The explanation (since they are ballistics chronos) is to avoid false readings from smoke or ejecta (like shotgun wads).

Good to know... I will forward this information and see where we stand.

cledford

12-10-2002, 02:25 PM

Hmmm, I guess it's our mistake on not knowing your product or definition of "bounce."

We were alway thinking "bounce" was what Bill Mills was tlaking about here:

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/turbo/index.shtml

Or you can see it here:

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/turbo/scope1.jpg

Sorry for the confusion.

-Calvin

joeyjoe367

12-10-2002, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
You must have missed the chrono test info.

Umm.. I saw what FOM put up, if that's what you're talking about.

No doubt, he's a great guy. A good friend of mine bought an impulse setup from him at a great price, and he's quite happy with it, but his reputation on a internet-forum isn't enough.

The problem (current to the board) Isn't being isolated. For all we know, it could be that there was a piece of teflon tape in the system, and when he swapped out batteries, he happened to blow the piece of tape out of the system, and his gun continued to work correctly.

what I would like to see (then I'll shut up) is a volt/current measuring/regulating device hooked up to your stock Intimidator main-board. Power the board correctly, and then give use chronograph datat. Power the board incorrectly, and then give us chrony data once more.

Then install your equalizer board, and then do the same.

all, of course, in a contained environment where you won't have to worry anything like teflon tape getting into the regulation system.

Run the same test a few times to find a base-line of data, and rule out all other outlying data.

also, using nylon paintballs, as AGD does will also take out the factor that FOM could have been using out-of-round paint.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 02:26 PM

BTW, there is no BPS cap in the NPPL, PSP, or PanAm events.

FrAuStY

12-10-2002, 02:31 PM

Once again.. he has none.. personally I'm tired of hearing about Jim Drew.

I knew from his first post about his WAS revvy upgrade with AI he was full of #$@%. He may know electronics.. but he knows very little about paintball, paintball guns, or other peoples intelligence.
He reminds me of one of those LOW I.Q. people who got lucky enough to get some experience doing something.. got a few certs (which anyone can do given the right transcenders) and now he's a self proclaimed Genius who knows EVERTYHING about one thing... his Equalizer. Well I'm still waiting on CLEAN video of your gun firing 25 bps WITH PAINT as the Emagnum did.. until then... you're word holds as much water as a bucket missing the bottom.

Also about holding the gun upside down.. You CALL THAT DATA!? Thats goofing off.. no one I know hangs upside down while playing paintball. Get real.. and get some HARD COPY DATA!

Cledofrd hit the nail on the head.. you have circular logic always willing to brag about.. never willing to show HARD proof of your "Findings" Worse than a used car salesman...

I will NEVER BUY A WICKED AIR SPORTS PRODUCT EVER! I'VE ALSO VOWED TO TELL EVERYONE I KNOW HOW MUCH HORSE #$%^ YOU'RE FULL OF.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 02:32 PM

what I would like to see (then I'll shut up) is a volt/current measuring/regulating device hooked up to your stock Intimidator main-board. Power the board correctly, and then give use chronograph datat. Power the board incorrectly, and then give us chrony data once more.

I would like this to be done and posted by someone other than myself. Considering that I have a relationship with Bob Long, and the stock boards are still being included with the GZ and 2K2 models, it would be foolish for ME to prove this. I already know the results. You don't even need a chrono to get the results, just use a digital storage scope and watch the dwell time.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 02:35 PM

Well I'm still waiting on CLEAN video of your gun firing 25 bps WITH PAINT as the Emagnum did

Where is a CLEAN video of the Emag shooting 25 bps?

joeyjoe367

12-10-2002, 02:36 PM

You're entirely correct Jim. I don't know if I would believe you if you said you'd done something like I described, simply because of your reputation.

Maybe this is a project for the Technical Roundtable?

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 02:40 PM

Joey, LOL!

BTW, it's nice to be back fighting with everyone (yet again). :)

PigSweat

12-10-2002, 02:50 PM

I've played with/agianst/alongside Strick 9 (Calgary, Alberta), Jim. I don't care what everyone else says, your boards obviously work. (NUMEROUS welts to prove that!)

When you release your Impulse EQ board, I will be first in line to buy it, finances allowing.

bofh

12-10-2002, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by PigSweat
I don't care what everyone else says, your boards obviously work.

Perhaps you should read the posts before you dismiss "what everyone else says."

cledford

12-10-2002, 03:01 PM

I've got an actual question for Jim :) On my Equalizer (yep I've got one) when I set the debounce to 5ms I can only pull at 9-10 balls per second. when I set it at 1ms I get 19bps. I've seen a guy at PB Nation who's counter shows 34bps.

Where's the difference coming from? My gun is essentially in full auto with like 5-8 shots per pull. I don't believe he's remotely coming close to pulling 34 times a second - so am convinced he is using bounce - why is his number so much higher? Different tolerances in the switches?

-Calvin

PigSweat

12-10-2002, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by bofh

Perhaps you should read the posts before you dismiss "what everyone else says."

Why? I've seen them work, I don't pretend to know or care how they work, just that they do.

Ignorance is bliss.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 03:24 PM

Cledford,

Every microswitch is different. One thing that Bob mentioned to me is that he has seen a marker at the shop have absolutely no multiple shots occuring at 1ms Debounce, where another marker will be like full auto at 5ms. If you can only pull the trigger 9-10 times per second at 5ms, then at 20ms, you won't see any difference either. The marker's recoil can occur quickly enough to "repull" the trigger if the Debounce setting is too low. "Debounce" is not actually a switch debounce in the normal sense (although the feature was named this in the beginning because that was the original intention and I just left the name as-is). The Debounce not only does the electrical debouncing of the switch, it also is a delay period where the trigger input is completely ignored. If you have a board prior to v2.0, the trigger is not even monitored during the cycling. At v2.0 I changed so that the trigger is monitored during the cycle because it is possible to pull the trigger faster than 40ms between pulls.

There really needed to be a way to adjust the switch electronically to compensate for the mechanical differences.

Yes, that really is 34 times per second it is firing. The shot counter increments at the END of the firing sequence, meaning after the bolt has returned. I met Maraurder at the World Cup and he explained how he did it. It's akward, but it works... and its all for showing off.

People can pull the trigger fast though. The Platinum player Mike Williams took a picture of his display at 22bps (shooting paint), and that is with the trigger setup so there are no multiple shots. Obviously, you can't sustain this rate (I don't believe anyways), but I can hit 18bps myself and empty a hopper in 10 seconds or less, all with a completely legal trigger setup (one pull = one shot).

NightStalker

12-10-2002, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz

Where is a CLEAN video of the Emag shooting 25 bps?

Good question.. Seems the links are dead now.. does anyone still have the videos so we can maybe repost them?

I noticed though that the sound data in the thread is still there showing that it was doing 24.5 bps but those darn vid links are busted again

and the thread I'm talking about is this one of course :)

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45932&highlight=25+bps

and I can't remeber how CLEAN these were but they at least they exisit....

bofh

12-10-2002, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by PigSweat
Why? I've seen them work, I don't pretend to know or care how they work, just that they do.

Ignorance is bliss.

Actually my point was, nobody has said that they don't work better than anybody else's product. If you actually read, you would know that.

"Ignorance is Bliss", however, is a perfectly acceptable stance. Just not a common one for a people on a forum to share information.

FrAuStY

12-10-2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz

Where is a CLEAN video of the Emag shooting 25 bps?

Ask and you shall receive.. here's two.. I don't have the software at work to analyze and PROVE it myself.. perhaps someone else with resources such as sound forge xp or other audio software can analyze and check it.

http://us.share.geocities.com/roby6298/MOV00002.mpeg

http://us.share.geocities.com/roby6298/MOV00003.MPG

and for grins, a dryfire at 30 bps...

http://us.share.geocities.com/roby6298/MOV00001.MPG (EDIT FORGOT LINK :rolleyes: )

All courtesy of www.butters.org

Even if it's not 25 its 24. Still waiting..(after 3 months) for some video of yours pulling these numbers.

Still this was not my point by asking to see your vids.., we all here know that the EMAG is so far the fastest "Proven" marker so let's not make this an emag vs timmy conversation.

My point was you never follow through with accurate REAL info. It's always subtle changes on your responses to make it sound good, aka "HYPE". I am yet to see anything from you that we can analyze. Give me a link... if you can prove yourself without saying "Joe Schmoe will tell you I'm not lying" garbage, I will change my views.. until then.. you're in a pretty deep hole.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 04:11 PM

These are not very clear videos. I would like to see the originals if possible. In the first video, I can see at least one ball break (cloud of green).

I have not put these through any type of sound analysis, but they sound like the 22-26 bps rate that we are getting with a fast Intimidator.

CRog075

12-10-2002, 04:24 PM

Jeese you automag ppl get so upset wwhen a gun fires faster than a mag or if just plain fires fast :rolleyes:

I agree with Jim though. Not alot of people know about mags and stuff, because they are not used much by tourny players.

Jonno06

12-10-2002, 04:26 PM

and people wonder why we dont have stupid flames like they have over on PBN everyday much here..

BECUASE WE GET PROOF!!!!

i like when cliffio said,"dude,i totally just got 45bps,but i had no paint,and my camera had dead batteries"

it toally shows how easy it is for these stupid PBN'ers to talk out of their butts..

SlartyBartFast

12-10-2002, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by CRog075
Jeese you automag ppl get so upset wwhen a gun fires faster than a mag or if just plain fires fast :rolleyes:

Well, JEEEEZE, all you Non-Automag people get all whiney and defensive when asked for proof.

The only reason these threads degenerate into Automag vs. the world is that the Automag is the only gun out there with videos and data backing up the claims. So when the people who hype their claims and refuse to provide even one shread of proof beyond I told you so, all that can be done is to say we want a video or readout like one of the automag ones. There have also been some good videos and data of Racegun set ups doing high ROF (16-18 bps I believe).

SlartyBartFast

12-10-2002, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
The Debounce feature of the Equalizer does not handle just your typical switch debouncing, it also is a delay period required after the switch oscillation stops to prevent the recoil from repulling the trigger.

Alright then. Pneumatic action/gun recoil might have an effect on the switch. It would seem to me this is another of the cute paintball theories that cannot be proven or disproven. All it does is add another variable into the error detected by the switch. Whether the 'noise' is electro mechanical (and I'll take your lack of comment as agreement with the rest of my post) or due to the recoil making the gun/trigger move in the player's hand the result is the same. Debounce is ONLY a delay period during which switch activity is ignored. I won't belabour the point further.

If everything else I posted is sound then it seems you're proven wrong. Will you address the other issues I and others have raised or will you ignore them?

The ludicrousness of saying debounce settings help you legalise/dial in an illegal trigger but that the settings are not usable in tournaments?

The obvious charge that Debounce can more readily be used to dial a trigger to illegality? And let's look at that claim further. After all, if debounce was never adjustable and allowed for a sufficient firing rate there is no need to adjust it other than to make a trigger illegal? What is the default debounce delay? At 10ms you're allowing trigger/firing rates close to 100bps before debounce would interfere. Therefor, the ONLY practical application of playing with debounce is to flirt with inducing switch bounce but maintaining the marker controllable.

Manike's accusation of illegal setups being pulled at the World Cup? Bill Cookston trying to get two shots is not a reliable test. And you say he allows the occasional doubleshot?!?! That means the 'TEST' is totally haphazard. How can he tell if the double shot is due to gun recoil or the electromechanical operation of the switch? (I suppose he was provided with the prototype Psychi-Link that's soon to be available for all WAS boards. <LOL>)

PACT chrono's not being usable for BPS measurements? Oh yea, you'll "see where you stand".

And here's a WAS classic:

...it would be foolish for ME to prove this. I already know the results. You don't even need a chrono to get the results, just use a digital storage scope and watch the dwell time.

You have got to be kidding. In virtually every endevour it is up to the person making the claims to provide the proof. Then, if the nay-sayers disagree it is up to them to repeat the test with the same conditions and show their results or for them to demonstrate why the test procedure was invalid. Because you dreamed up/formulated your desired results in your head is not proof. Any respectable inventor/tinkerer would WANT to prove and test his work. If it's so easy to take the readings and do the tests then do them. Any way you cut it, refusing to do so or denying the need only raises suspicions and absolutely proves you're not interested in hard facts or data.

These are not very clear videos. I would like to see the originals if possible. In the first video, I can see at least one ball break (cloud of green).

This gets ridiculous. WAS doesn't have to provide any proof or evidence, but the evidence posted by others has to meet his standards? <ROTFL> So get off your back end and make a video of a fast intimidator shooting 22bps. We WILL put it to analysis and then we'll see how much of the HYPE stands up. If the EMagnum had a ball break, then we won't jump on your equalizer if it has one, and as long as your video is as clean as the EMagnum or HALOB videos we'll accept them.

I have not put these through any type of sound analysis, but they sound like the 22-26 bps rate that we are getting with a fast Intimidator.

We've probably all heard of perfect pitch for identifying musical tone, but for identifying rythm up to 29/second? I suppose the oscilloscope readings you refuse to provide and the tests you refuse to share are all correct to your standard of "sounds like" and "looks like"? Seems to me that's the only way you "know the results".

NightStalker

12-10-2002, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
These are not very clear videos. I would like to see the originals if possible. In the first video, I can see at least one ball break (cloud of green).

I have not put these through any type of sound analysis, but they sound like the 22-26 bps rate that we are getting with a fast Intimidator.

If you look at the post that I put in

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45932&highlight=25+bps

It was already done for you

*sigh*

CRog075

12-10-2002, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

Well, JEEEEZE, all you Non-Automag people get all whiney and defensive when asked for proof.

The only reason these threads degenerate into Automag vs. the world is that the Automag is the only gun out there with videos and data backing up the claims. So when the people who hype their claims and refuse to provide even one shread of proof beyond I told you so, all that can be done is to say we want a vidoe or readout like one of the automag ones. There have also been some good videos and data of Racegun set ups doing high ROF (16-18 bps I believe).

Actually, I used to have a automag, and my shot a rt, nothing special.

WickedAirSportz

12-10-2002, 05:08 PM

If everything else I posted is sound then it seems you're proven wrong. Will you address the other issues I and others have raised or will you ignore them?

That's a problem with many people here. If I don't respond, I am "proven wrong". If I respond with 100% accurate information, I am wrong. You want proof, I provide a method for YOU to get it, as I don't feel it is necessary to provide you anything more than that.

At 10ms you're allowing trigger/firing rates close to 100bps before debounce would interfere.

Wrong! You are assuming that the Debounce is a standard electrical debounce. This is not the case. Perhaps I should rename this feature to "trigger sensativity" or "recoil sensativity".

You have got to be kidding. In virtually every endevour it is up to the person making the claims to provide the proof.

Not this endevour. I provide the information about how to obtain the proof, that way you can do it yourself. I can "fake" anything - video, audio, anything. Anyone with my background could easily produce a video showing a pump gun being shot at 25bps, and it would look real. I have already been down the "show us the video" road in the past with computer hardware and software... its simply too easy to post numbers and video that would not be real. Believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see. :)

Any respectable inventor/tinkerer would WANT to prove and test his work.

Absolutely, and we have done so.

Any way you cut it, refusing to do so or denying the need only raises suspicions and absolutely proves you're not interested in hard facts or data.

No, it means that I am not interested in pacifying this group. :)

So get off your back end and make a video of a fast intimidator shooting 22bps

Where have you been? There was a video of this about 5 months ago. It was analyzed by someone from this group and reported as 22bps... do a search.

If the EMagnum had a ball break, then we won't jump on your equalizer if it has one

I would have a fit if there was a broken ball due to the Equalizer. :)

sniper1rfa

12-10-2002, 05:58 PM

electrical bounce, mechanical bounce, who cares? it would still have to do it 100 times a second for a 10 second debounce to have any effect.
besides, your "mechanical bounce" shouldnt matter, cause your not actually pulling the trigger that fast, its just vibrating.

and he meant, we wouldnt mind a break, because at that rate, your effectively trying to feed at 50 bps (at 25 bps), considering about half the time is spent moving the bolt...

i too would like to see a comparison of the stock board's power supply (to the 'noid) versus yours. if you have the equipment, use it damnit, dont make us do your work. back up your product, dont just spout a lot of hot air.
your refusal makes you seem scared. dosnt matter what your real reasons are if you look scared to everybody else.

and i find it hard to believe you (or whoever did the vid) moving the trigger that fast no matter how you hold the thing. i dont deny its cycling that fast though.
I betcha you could get a stock timmy going that fast however, provided with a way to move the trigger that fast. (maybe a full auto capable board replacing the microswitch?).

it seems to me that since all the board is doing to the 'noid is completing a curcuit (no regulation or anything) that the solenoid firing would be totally dependent on the battery, not your board. mabey your board wont fry as easy, but it shouldnt do anything else.

SlartyBartFast

12-10-2002, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
That's a problem with many people here. If I don't respond, I am "proven wrong". If I respond with 100% accurate information, I am wrong.

Usually, it's because you selectively ignore posts and points. You concentrate on one thing to divert attention and obfuscate to 'explain' it. Most of the time the explaination is simply "you don't/can't understand". Just look at the way in which you have to redefine the debounce setting, but refuse to make yourself clear or address simple direct questions.

You want proof, I provide a method for YOU to get it, as I don't feel it is necessary to provide you anything more than that.

Well, I for one will not buy anything just to test it out. I also do not accept hype and dubious claims as proof. AI and "ball slap" from cheap pic circuitry giving 16 bps from a revvvy comes to mind. That and the various gyrations that WAS has done concerning the release schedule of boards and the number of times it seems you have to send boards back, has convinced me I'd never be one of your customers.

The only way I'd test your equipment is if someone loaned it to me for testing. The fact is that every test done on the revvy boards was dismissed by you as incomplete or incorrectly done.

Wrong! You are assuming that the Debounce is a standard electrical debounce. This is not the case. Perhaps I should rename this feature to "trigger sensativity" or "recoil sensativity".

Alright, you've renamed it. Standard debounce circuits are just "switch sensitivity adjusters". But besides ignoring the trigger for a set amount of time what does yours do? If it's just: detect trigger, wait for debounce setting time, check for new trigger pull, then no matter what you call it, a pause is a pause. Also if that is the case then my calculations are spot on.

You're insulting my intelligence by simply stating that it's something different than a standard switch debounce without bothering to attmept to enlighten me. Like I said, 'noise' is 'noise'. The switch and the circuit don't care whether the additional switch pulse comes from 'recoil' or standard electromechanical bounce of the switch contacts.

You've yet to address how locking the feature out in tournament mode helps legalise illegal triggers. Which was/is one of your claims. The only reason to lock it out is because it causes ILLEGAL triggers.

Anyone with my background could easily produce a video showing a pump gun being shot at 25bps, and it would look real.

Would love to see it. Anyone who can wank that fast must have money invested with the KY people.

Absolutely, and we have done so.

So if you have tested it, then tell us how you tested it and what your results are. Then we'll all be appropriately amazed and impressed.

There was a video of this about 5 months ago. It was analyzed by someone from this group and reported as 22bps... do a search.

Cool. If it was shooting paint, the Intimidator joins the Emag on my list of rediculous wastes of money for abilities I don't need.

I would have a fit if there was a broken ball due to the Equalizer. :)

Well good for you. Produce your video to a higher standard, don't break any paint, and we'll all be impressed and amazed.