AKA Legal Defense Fund Pledge Drive!

[spantol]

Fellow AOers,

AuctionJunkie!, a mod for the AKA forums at PBNation and an AKA Master Tech, has said that if there is enough interest in an AKA Legal Defense Fund, there's a good chance that he can work with AKA to set one up.

With that in mind, I urge those of you that feel strongly about this patent issue to raise your voices here, and to put your money where your mouths are.

I have $1,000 for AKA, if they're willing to take it. Would anyone else like to add to the pool?

Updated - 12-22-2003
Donations can now be made via PayPal at akalegal@akalmp.com

Related Threads:

PBNation - AKA Press Release 12/21/03 (http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=375257&perpage=21&pagenumber=1)

Automags.org - Smart Parts Strikes Again! now its AKA (http://http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116796&perpage=30&pagenumber=1)

[personman]

Uhhhhhh
I have $10!!!

[magman007]

not trying to sound like a tight wad or some one looking for something, but would any of this be deductable? or would we recieve any thing at all? even a kind letter from aka?

[spantol]

magman007: I think it's safe to assume at this point that this wouldn't be tax deductible. Too soon to tell on the rest of it, though I'd imagine something like a thank-you press release would be issued, at least.

[pbguy888]

I could donate some , not any where near 1k but still some...

[spantol]

pbguy888: Whatever you feel you can give will be more than enough--please chime in with even a lowball estimate. I'd like to be able to have a rolling dollar amount in this thread that we can show AKA what AO is willing to give.

[personman]

Eh, ok you guys are making me feel bad.
I'll do 20! ;)

[Meph]

Hmmmmm, if this is so then I'll have to call up AuctionJunkie. Might have to give a generous contribution of my own.

[IWANTMOREMAGS]

I shoot a Merlin, it's great so I guess I could put up around $80 or $90

[adam shannon]

im saving my $ till they go after AGD...probably right after wgp and wdp.

[spantol]

You realize, of course, that a win in court against AKA will establish a precedent, making it even more of an uphill battle for successive victims, right?

[adam shannon]

it will never go to trial. its too costly. aka will cave then sp will sue the next on the list. nobody ( average pb players ) took it seriously when they started with icd...everybody talked smack and put funny sp nazi gifs in their sigs, but nobody did anything...then after the settlement with icd everything went back to normal...till now.

the whole community needed to band together a year ago, but PB is to fractured as it is. most manufacturers seem to be holding their breath while glad that sp is hitting their competition too.

if it would have been everybody against sp it would have been over already. the bandwagon has pulled away and all thats left is hot air. a $10 donation wont even cover what a lawyer charges to lick a stamp. and $100,000 would just be the retainer. SP knows all this, so you all better just pre-order your '04 nerves right now. its too late.

[spantol]

You very well may be right. Personally, I'm just not quite that cynical yet. At this point, it should be abundantly clear to all manufacturers that their number will indeed come up, in time. Consumers that vocally bought into the Smart Parts spin that the ICD suit was only about "future products" are left eating their words. Smart Parts is coming, and nothing shy of a decisive court loss is going to stop them.

As a consumer, contributing to AKA's defense is really the only thing I can do to help this situation. Given the choice between doing something and doing nothing, I feel that I have to do something.

[agdemagman69]

Since AKA creates the only gun that has never broke on me, Im throwing in AT LEAST 50$

[adam shannon]

dont get me wrong, i was hoping to get a diffrent response...i really dont think the world is lost...but was hoping to bring out some anger at my choice of words just to emphasize how serious the issue is.

but i do think that the whole non sp enabling pb world needs to revolt in unison. more $ and more momentum.

the worst thing about this is the average player who doesnt go to message boards really has no idea this is all going on. of the dozens of kids who were sporting sp hats/etc at my field none of them even knew what was going on behind the scenes. nobody who isnt on the boards knows whats going on. the same couple hundred people who are posting about it arent going to do anything...the truth needs to get out.

and while im on a rant...and my background is internet sales, and i ran a message board for my product...anyways only about 1% of people who jump on a bandwagon will actually do anything reguardless of what they post. ask tom why he had thousands of roller triggers made then only sold a couple dozen!

because talk is just that talk!

[spantol]

Sorry to respond so reasonably, then. :)

You raise a good point, that offline awareness. I think a discussion of how to raise that awareness is warrented, in a new thread. Maybe in the morning... :)

[Matt_mg]

I'm ready to put a 50 and spread it to more "local" forums once it's set up

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

i will contribute. i'm not sure how much at this moment but i'll get some friends to chip in

[adam shannon]

i hate to be the downer here, actualy im a realist and do like pointing out the BS in the world. most people, no offense, who jump on a hot button issue and pledge this or that are cooled down 5 minutes after they hit the post button and never follow thru. why do you think telethons ask for credit cards now instead of just the "pledge" of you sending a check next week after youve forgotten about all those poor little crippled kids.

[painball]

$25 right here :cool:

EDIT: I feel guilty with all these high donations

[heftylefty]

what an unpleasant gift from SP to AKA. they sure know how to ruin the christmas spirit.

[sps16]

Thats cool how you guys can stand by a company like this, i would donate but im poor :(

[darwin]

Originally posted by adam shannon
im saving my $ till they go after AGD...probably right after wgp and wdp.

yeh

[shartley]

Originally posted by adam shannon
it will never go to trial. its too costly. aka will cave then sp will sue the next on the list. nobody ( average pb players ) took it seriously when they started with icd...everybody talked smack and put funny sp nazi gifs in their sigs, but nobody did anything...then after the settlement with icd everything went back to normal...till now.

the whole community needed to band together a year ago, but PB is to fractured as it is. most manufacturers seem to be holding their breath while glad that sp is hitting their competition too.

if it would have been everybody against sp it would have been over already. the bandwagon has pulled away and all thats left is hot air. a $10 donation wont even cover what a lawyer charges to lick a stamp. and $100,000 would just be the retainer.
This is all true. But I would add that when the bandwagon pulled out the first time, it was all hot air then as well.

SP went to events during all this and from what I hear, their booths didn’t have any shortage of interest.

Originally posted by adam shannon
the worst thing about this is the average player who doesnt go to message boards really has no idea this is all going on. of the dozens of kids who were sporting sp hats/etc at my field none of them even knew what was going on behind the scenes. nobody who isnt on the boards knows whats going on. the same couple hundred people who are posting about it arent going to do anything...the truth needs to get out.
And that is a huge problem with online communities, they THINK they make up the majority of players, when they do not. As with anything started on internet forums, it goes NOWHERE if it stays on the internet forums. To enact change, people have to get from behind their computers and DO something.

Originally posted by adam shannon
and while im on a rant...and my background is internet sales, and i ran a message board for my product...anyways only about 1% of people who jump on a bandwagon will actually do anything reguardless of what they post. ask tom why he had thousands of roller triggers made then only sold a couple dozen!

because talk is just that talk!
You hit a very large nail on its colossal head. It makes coming out with new products hit or miss if you only factor in what folks say online.

[epterry]

Man I hope some one from sp reads these threads. Just to think we are giving money to their competition not buying stuff from their competition but giving them money.:D

[Sir_Brass]

they won't care. they're like M$: too much $$ to ever give a hoot about any one consumer or small group of consumers.

That needs to be done is to get the field owners against SP. They're the ones who will enact change. ALl the influential players can usually be influenced just by what their local field owner says. If the field owner is anti-sp for what they're doing, then his regular contingent will become anti-sp or at least not buy sp except if it's absolutely necessary. That will then spread to the new players and first timers.

People, get your local field owners AGAINST SP. Educate them if they don't know what's going on. If we're going to create opposition to SP, then we need to get the people who are most influential in the industry to be against SP, and those people are the field owners.

[thei3ug]

as much as i admire AKA, and hoosier pride and all.... I have to question a charity for a corporate body.

Especially when I see my own employer struggling. I would rather receive a receipt for a loan than donate, to be paid within a certain time of completion of the lawsuit.

Sorry, There are people who need money more than what amounts to a luxury sports equipment manufacturer. i've been unemployed for 3 months... just got a job. I don't think it'd be right to just start giving money away.

[GT]

Originally posted by thei3ug
Especially when I see my own employer struggling. I would rather receive a receipt for a loan than donate, to be paid within a certain time of completion of the lawsuit.


Agreed!,
Now if AKA or AGD want to share ownership via stocks but since neither are a publicly held company and I have little buisness sence I will let you guys continue with my idea.

[spantol]

From AuctionJunkie!, in the AKA Forum at PBNation:



I spoke with Larry and he confirmed that any and all money donated will only be used in defense of the lawsuit by Smart Parts.
Donations can be made via paypal to akalegal@akalmp.com

We are still setting up the Trust Fund Account for those who want to mail a check. As soon as that is completed I will post the details.
Thanks everyone,
Dan

[Hexis]

Originally posted by thei3ug
as much as i admire AKA, and hoosier pride and all.... I have to question a charity for a corporate body.

Valid points. However, think of it as a donation to help set a precident against SP's very questionable patent. It doesn't matter who it goes to, just the first group that's willing to fight it and not cave in. If that's AKA, then more power to them, and if you feel you can help, do it. If you can't, don't.

[chizle97]

ill give 30 bucks in a M.O. I just need an adress

DAMN THE MAN! SAVE THE EMPIRE!!!!

[pbguy888]

"I spoke with Larry and he confirmed that any and all money donated will only be used in defense of the lawsuit by Smart Parts.
Donations can be made via paypal to akalegal@akalmp.com

We are still setting up the Trust Fund Account for those who want to mail a check. As soon as that is completed I will post the details.
Thanks everyone,"
Dan

[spantol]

I've sent my donation. Anyone else done it yet?

[adam shannon]

to all the big talkers. put your money where your keyboard is.


This email confirms that you sent $10.00 USD to akalegal@akalmp.com.


------------------------------
Payment Details
------------------------------

Amount: $10.00 USD
Transaction ID: 35A67519YJ511054X
Subject: legal fund
Note:
donation.

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by thei3ug
as much as i admire AKA, and hoosier pride and all.... I have to question a charity for a corporate body.

I couldn't agree more. I like AKA and think the people there are good, but in no way do I feel comfortable giving to a COMPANY.

sure, they money may only be used for the legal defense, but will the money be placed on TOP OF money they would have already been spent? For example. AKA needs to spend, at minimum $10,000 to fight SP. We donate $2,000 total. Will AKA spend $12,000 or will the spend $10,000 taking $2000 from their contribution and investing that into other ventures? Will they? Where are my assurances?

There arn't any! Ding Ding! Reason Number one I won't give to a FOR-PROFIT comapny

[spantol]

Kevmaster,

I don't really see the problem there. Ultimately, AKA is going to be saddled (unfairly, IMHO) with a bill for x thousands of dollars for their legal defense. There is no "at minimum;" it'll cost what it'll cost. Through donations, we attempt to defray some of that cost, so that their other ventures might be salvaged.

[adam shannon]

apathy and selfishness is what SP is counting on. you have a good poaint kev...and since most people think the way you do i guess sp is going to annex the sudaten land of pb, because everybody thinks that when they said they wanted to control all of pb you obviously didnt think they meant you too.

[ProX9]

Originally posted by Kevmaster


I couldn't agree more. I like AKA and think the people there are good, but in no way do I feel comfortable giving to a COMPANY.

sure, they money may only be used for the legal defense, but will the money be placed on TOP OF money they would have already been spent? For example. AKA needs to spend, at minimum $10,000 to fight SP. We donate $2,000 total. Will AKA spend $12,000 or will the spend $10,000 taking $2000 from their contribution and investing that into other ventures? Will they? Where are my assurances?

There arn't any! Ding Ding! Reason Number one I won't give to a FOR-PROFIT comapny

If your not going to donate dont post reasons why you shouldnt donate to aka. I really dont think AKA is going to cheap out on the law suit so they can spend 2 grand on other ventures, especially since they are going against a huge company.

[thei3ug]

i'm sorry, but My family owns a small business much like the Alexanders. We've ALL been hit by hard times, including a supplier that stole 80,000 dollars worth of material because the Judge had trouble understanding ASTM standards and the terms "refund" and "put it on a truck and never came back."

Times are hard, and it's a family business, but it's FOR PROFIT.

You're making donations for a luxury item. How many of you would donate to any other charity, or MATCH the money you gave to AKA for the red cross, or another organization?

AKA is a For Profit company. How many of you would donate money to the phone company that gives you your favorite rates because they were monopolized out of a region?

for one thing, I keep my donations private, for reasons of my own. But You are DONATING MONEY so that a company can keep more of its profits, and spend less of them on legal fees. You're helping them out, for sure. But if they win, they don't keep the business... they made out.

I say keep track of every "donation" that comes in, and have AKA make a pledge to pay them back within a year or two of the lawsuit. That is the only way I can see a FOR PROFIT organization taking money from its customers for no service and being fair about it.

After all... if this is about keeping an industry alive, you all missed the boat when a hundred thousand steelworkers lost their jobs and you were out buying your honda civics and volkswagons. I don't see a huge moral highground here. I see a lot of people who are supporting their favorite toy company.

[shartley]

Originally posted by thei3ug
i'm sorry, but My family owns a small business much like the Alexanders. We've ALL been hit by hard times, including a supplier that stole 80,000 dollars worth of material because the Judge had trouble understanding ASTM standards and the terms "refund" and "put it on a truck and never came back."

Times are hard, and it's a family business, but it's FOR PROFIT.

You're making donations for a luxury item. How many of you would donate to any other charity, or MATCH the money you gave to AKA for the red cross, or another organization?

AKA is a For Profit company. How many of you would donate money to the phone company that gives you your favorite rates because they were monopolized out of a region?

for one thing, I keep my donations private, for reasons of my own. But You are DONATING MONEY so that a company can keep more of its profits, and spend less of them on legal fees. You're helping them out, for sure. But if they win, they don't keep the business... they made out.

I say keep track of every "donation" that comes in, and have AKA make a pledge to pay them back within a year or two of the lawsuit. That is the only way I can see a FOR PROFIT organization taking money from its customers for no service and being fair about it.

After all... if this is about keeping an industry alive, you all missed the boat when a hundred thousand steelworkers lost their jobs and you were out buying your honda civics and volkswagons. I don't see a huge moral highground here. I see a lot of people who are supporting their favorite toy company.
Thank you.

[spantol]

If you do not see any moral high ground here, you are not in the intended audience of this thread. And that's perfectly fine; we're all entitled to our own views on this subject. The concerns you have voiced, though, are so contrary to the spirit of this thread that they can hardly be said to be appropriate. Perhaps a new thread, discussing this matter's place in the context of the grand scheme of things is in order--you're more than welcome to start one.


Originally posted by thei3ug
I don't see a huge moral highground here. I see a lot of people who are supporting their favorite toy company.

[Jeb_Hoge]

I have to agree with thei3ug. Support AKA all the way (I do), pool your money into ads in the paintball magazines calling for SP to stop trying to sue their way through the industry, and buy their products, even if it's not a Viking or Excal. But at least ASK the Alexanders if a few thousand bucks, if that, would be welcomed or even necessary to them before cutting them a check that they may not want (for any number of reasons).

[adam shannon]

Originally posted by thei3ug
You're making donations for a luxury item. How many of you would donate to any other charity, or MATCH the money you gave to AKA for the red cross, or another organization?

the red cross is a scam...for all the good theyve done for flood victims etc they lost all credibility with me after 9/11 when they only paid out a small percentage of what they took in for "victims" saying they were banking most of it for later...yet still running ads on tv begging for more $ for the victims of 9/11.


Originally posted by thei3ug

After all... if this is about keeping an industry alive, you all missed the boat when a hundred thousand steelworkers lost their jobs and you were out buying your honda civics and volkswagons. I don't see a huge moral highground here. I see a lot of people who are supporting their favorite toy company.

the american steel industry went belly up cuz they couldnt handle the competition while saddled with unions that only wanted more $ for their workers...cuz more in salary means more in union dues. the unions in cleveland wouldnt budge a bit...and everybody lost their jobs cuz of the unions greed.

do any of you know what the big grocery strike in cali is really about. the stores want their workers to pay $5 a week for their health insurance...they were getting it for free....so for $20 a month they went on strike...and the kicker is union grocery baggers in cali make on average $20 an hour!!! so i feel no pity for them.

were not talking about helping a multi billion dollar company like the phone company, were talking about a small mom and pop...although they make good money the fight is about a crroked company with deep pockets trying to stifle competition thru legal fees...not thru fair buisness or having a better selling product. SP is trying to monopolize PB so their inferior products are the only ones available.

and their patent is a crock.

[shartley]

Originally posted by adam shannon
were not talking about helping a multi billion dollar company like the phone company, were talking about a small mom and pop...although they make good money the fight is about a crroked company with deep pockets trying to stifle competition thru legal fees...not thru fair buisness or having a better selling product. SP is trying to monopolize PB so their inferior products are the only ones available.

and their patent is a crock.
The Federal Government has a system in place that protects against Monopolies. SP is not trying to Monopolize paintball. But if you think they are, feel free to report them to the FTC.

Crooked….. has anyone involved in this broken any laws? What is “not nice” and what is “crooked” is often far from the same thing. And even more so when talking about the business world. I again challenge ANYONE to look to all the companies they support by buying their products and see if they all stand up to the imagined “paintball high morals” that are being tossed around since this SP thing first was posted about.

Also, if SP WINS, does AKA go out of business? How would that help SP? I don’t think that is their goal. But it sounds better acting like they are trying to shut down every Mom and Pop business in the paintball industry, and trying to stifle competition, than saying they are trying to gain revenue from each product sold that they feel is covered by their patent (whether you AGREE with that patent or not).

Again, this does not say I SUPPORT SP or their actions, only that I don’t agree with the assessments being tossed around.

[adam shannon]

Originally posted by shartley

AKA go out of business? How would that help SP?

are you daft man? if the only marker companies in business are SP and everybody paying their street tax to make markers they get a bigger market share for their guns and $ from everybody that pays their extortion.

you cant tell me that they hit the two companies that make markers that are the biggest competition to their impulse. bushmasters and vikings. vikings are all you read about anymore as the new great marker.

their patent is like rubbermaid suing everybody who makes trash cans cuz they were the first to claim ownership on an idea thats been in use for years.

[shartley]

Originally posted by adam shannon
are you daft man? if the only marker companies in business are SP and everybody paying their street tax to make markers they get a bigger market share for their guns and $ from everybody that pays their extortion.

you cant tell me that they hit the two companies that make markers that are the biggest competition to their impulse. bushmasters and vikings. vikings are all you read about anymore as the new great marker.

their patent is like rubbermaid suing everybody who makes trash cans cuz they were the first to claim ownership on an idea thats been in use for years.
I did not insult you, please act in a similar manner.

No, I am not daft. SP would gain MORE in the long run by gleaming funds from other companies than if they made every marker themselves. When other companies manufacture the markers and take on all costs associated with it, SP makes “easy money” vs. having to fork over all the money and resources needed to produce each product themselves.

It is in SPs benefit to GAIN from other companies vs. forcing them OUT OF BUSINESS. Which was my point. And that has nothing to do with them coming out with their own products, or how their products stack up against similar products in their “bracket”. The more products sold, either theirs, or those which they receive a portion of the sale, the more they make. They are not out to close down any company… only to gleam funds from them.

In essence I think you said the same thing I did, but wanted to argue with me.

I am not arguing whether their patent is “correct” because honestly, they HAVE IT. And until someone stands up and fights it, and gets it tossed out, it stands as LAW.

[logamus]

imho, aka is even worse than sp for asking for donations. how many kids will wake up to no presents thursday morning? how many kids will go to sleep hungry every night? but aka needs your help to fight off the evil smart parts. aka can take a long walk off a short pier. i hope they lose.


anyone (agd included) who is not prepared for their turn with sp deserves what they get.

[ProX9]

Logamus please shut up, learn to spell motivate and get your facts straight, we asked if we could start a fund to help them not aka themselves. Shartley Smartparts is most likely attacking aka because they are small and an easy way to get precidence for later trials, For the 1200 guns aka has sold smartparts wouldnt make 20 grand off royalties. If they get precidence and get a bigger company with that then they make big money. By wishing for aka to fail you wish to jeopardize a company
that people work at and make their livelyhood at. You just wished that people suffer and lose their jobs so dont go trying to imply guilt on people donating to AKA.

[spantol]

logamus: AKA has not asked for anything. Several people in the AKA forum at PBNation expressed interest in donating to support their fight, and AKA accomodated them. The donation drive is being conducted entirely by the consumer community.

[dansim]

that all being said it is our money and we will choose to spend it where we want.

[adam shannon]

Originally posted by shartley

I did not insult you, please act in a similar manner.

as many rocks as you throw you sure have a thin skin.


Originally posted by shartley

until someone stands up and fights it, and gets it tossed out, it stands as LAW.

actually its not law yet...since nobody has actually fought it..and for that matter what is this whole thread talking about? so as usual you defeat your whole stance in your own words.

[ProX9]

Oh yeah Logamus have you donated to any children for christmas because my parents and I raised money on our own accord to give presents to a family that would have no presents for christmas if we hadnt done anything. Just thought I would say that after he implied that people donating to aka didnt care about other peoples suffering.

[shartley]

Originally posted by ProX9
Logamus please shut up and get your facts straight, we asked if we could start a fund to help them not aka themselves. Shartley Smartparts is most likely attacking aka because they are small and an easy way to get precidence for later trials, For the 1200 guns aka has sold smartparts wouldnt make 20 grand off royalties. If they get precidence and get a bigger company with that then they make big money.
I understand the process, believe me. My point was that Mom and Pop businesses are not being shut down, nor would doing so help SP in the long run. Folks were making a Mom and Pop issue out of this, not one of stopping the setting of precedents for future law suits. Folks were acting like people needed to send AKA money so they can keep their bills paid and stay in business because of the financial drain taking this to court would cost them… and MY point is that no matter what happens, I don’t see them closing up shop.. win OR lose. That is not SPs goal.

And sorry, by giving money to AKA to fight this “battle” you ARE giving it to help them. If folks want to raise funds for a “class action lawsuit” I would be more inclined to donate. But this is NOT a class action lawsuit. And any attempts to try to make it “appear” like one by means of using AKA to “save the industry against an evil company” is wrong.

If folks want to battle SP, do so. If folks want to educate the public, do so. But I for one do not feel obligated to pay into a fund specifically designed to help a for profit business fight a court battle that win or lose does not truly affect the average paintball player. And this does not mean I agree with SP or their actions. And more so this does not mean I don’t have empathy for AKA, because I do.

[z_mann_z]

Hmm, I will ebay some of my old gear and donate. I am hapy to see the people rising up against this scourge.

[dansim]

oh and all you people COMPLAINing about a worthy cause how bout you put up or shut up,ive had this thread for a little bit now and youve all but ignored it

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115262

DO NOT challenge the Curse filter - cphilip

you forgot to changew the word phil, sorry i thought that word wasnt restricted as ive seen it before i thought, perhaps it was the ghetto gangsta version

[shartley]

Originally posted by adam shannon


as many rocks as you throw you sure have a thin skin.



actually its not law yet...since nobody has actually fought it..and for that matter what is this whole thread talking about? so as usual you defeat your whole stance in your own words.
When you have to continually attack me and not simply address the issue, you have lost your case. Sorry. And when was the last time I threw any rocks (minus CB ;) ). Stop living in the past and digging up crap just to try to cover your own wrongs.

And the issue was helping a for profit business fight their battles, not about a class action law suit. So as usual, YOU defeat your whole stance by not paying attention to what others actually write.


Originally posted by dansim

that all being said it is our money and we will choose to spend it where we want.
I agree!

[logamus]

sure spend your money how you wish, i just think there are far better ways to spend it and im intitled to think that.

spantol, do you not think that if aka said thanks but no thanks there would be a "legal defense fund". regardless of whos idea it was, they fully support it.

prox9, your spelling observations have been duly noted. i will also note that i have the same right to my oppinion as you do to yours, so telling me to "shut up" is rather childish and not very becoming. i will also refer you to the fact that aka has done nothing to stop this. they are taking donations with no shame regardless if it was their idea.


its a cold hard world boys and girls, you can either compete or you cant.

[spantol]

Then Sam, and those like-minded, this is not the thread for you. If you wish to discuss the relative merits of this effort, please start your own thread.


Originally posted by shartley
But I for one do not feel obligated to pay into a fund specifically designed to help a for profit business fight a court battle that win or lose does not truly affect the average paintball player.

[spantol]

logamus: I can't quite parse this. I think what you're asking is if I believe that AKA would have started such a thing on their own. I do not.


Originally posted by logamus
spantol, do you not think that if aka said thanks but no thanks there would be a "legal defense fund". regardless of whos idea it was, they fully support it.

[laxkid]

because of this I am going to help them out by buying a viking :) and then I will go over to my friends and pee on his impulse ;) :D and then burn it and take pictures and send them to smart parts also their customer service SUCKS I had an old shocker and wanted to ask a question the told me to email tech support and the y told me to email blah blah and they told me to go to tech support and back and forth so down with sp because of their stupid patent :mad: it shouldn't be this way

[logamus]

Originally posted by ProX9
Oh yeah Logamus have you donated to any children for christmas because my parents and I raised money on our own accord to give presents to a family that would have no presents for christmas if we hadnt done anything. Just thought I would say that after he implied that people donating to aka didnt care about other peoples suffering.

as a matter of fact i have, as i do every year. i dont go waving a big flag saying "i help the needy" but i help in the small ways that i can. im sure everyone who dontates to aka spends at least as much helping the less fortunate. just as i am sure that aka donates on a regular basis to all sorts of charitable organizations.

[ProX9]

The majority of the people who donate are the people who are affected beause they own an aka gun or plan to in the near future. The average paintball player will end up seeing the effects of this if aka loses and smartparts decides to hit a much bigger company with a patent infringement lawsuit, if aka wins this suit then sp will have no legal grounds to sue any other company.

[shartley]

Originally posted by spantol
Then Sam, and those like-minded, this is not the thread for you. If you wish to discuss the relative merits of this effort, please start your own thread.


I will not comment more on this issue. I said what was on my mind, and more than I had intended.... and only because someone tried to turn this into a personal issue.

Folks are allowed to spend their money any way they want.. period.

[logamus]

Originally posted by spantol
logamus: I can't quite parse this. I think what you're asking is if I believe that AKA would have started such a thing on their own. I do not.



my point was that at this point in time who started the idea is not as important as the fact that aka said "sure give us money". no, i dont think aka would ever go out and ask the community for money, but they sure didnt say no when the community wanted to give.

[ProX9]

Originally posted by logamus


as a matter of fact i have, as i do every year. i dont go waving a big flag saying "i help the needy" but i help in the small ways that i can. im sure everyone who dontates to aka spends at least as much helping the less fortunate. just as i am sure that aka donates on a regular basis to all sorts of charitable organizations.

I didnt mean to bring out the flag but it just seemed implied that we didnt care for others. In a way I believe that keeping AKA alive would benefit people within the company who might go jobless if AKA were slapped with a 20,000+ legal fee or worse if they lose and have to pay sp and for their legal council if im not mistaken. someone correct me if im wrong.

[spantol]

So you're faulting AKA for accepting money that the community was freely willing to give? Interesting.


Originally posted by logamus


my point was that at this point in time who started the idea is not as important as the fact that aka said "sure give us money". no, i dont think aka would ever go out and ask the community for money, but they sure didnt say no when the community wanted to give.

[logamus]

Originally posted by ProX9


I didnt mean to bring out the flag but it just seemed implied that we didnt care for others. In a way I believe that keeping AKA alive would benefit people within the company who might go jobless if AKA were slapped with a 20,000+ legal fee or worse if they lose and have to pay sp and for their legal council if im not mistaken. someone correct me if im wrong.

im sure there is a very real chance that if hit hard by a lawsuit that those people could very well lose their jobs. while i dont support hard working americans being thrown out on their butts, that doesnt exempt aka from not being prepared for this day. thats really the bottom line here folks, every company is going to have their turn with sp and its up to them to be prepared. i feel that a solid well thought out defense can beat sp. however, if your defense is to bury your head and then cry out to the pb community that sp is trying to rape you then you get what you have coming.

[logamus]

Originally posted by spantol
So you're faulting AKA for accepting money that the community was freely willing to give? Interesting.



yes i am faulting them. i personally think it reflects poorly on their management that they are resorting to accepting donations from random people to fight their legal battles.

[FordPrefect]

Originally posted by logamus


yes i am faulting them. i personally think it reflects poorly on their management that they are resorting to accepting donations from random people to fight their legal battles.

So you're saying if you started a business, worked hard to get it off the ground, made a good reputation, and then a big company with good lawyers came to sue you, you wouldn't accept money from people supporting your business?

Maybe you wouldn't. But I know that if it came down to it, I would, and so would a lot of people.

[spantol]

logamus:

Look, no one is claiming that AKA's problems are not ultimately theirs and theirs alone. A small subset of people, though, feel strongly enough about the greater issue that they're willing to contribute to AKA's cause. You are clearly not one of them. Why you continue to "contribute" to a thread created for those people is a mystery to me.

AKA is "resorting" to nothing. Money has effectively shown up on their doorstep, with a note attached reading "Good luck with Smart Parts." What possibly motivation would they have to ignore that?

[logamus]

ok, i will make this my final post in this thread.

my point all along has been that aka has apparently done very little to prepare for this day. i say that because i feel that if months and weeks of preparation had been in place they would say, "thank you for your support but we feel we have the situation in hand. please keep your money and have a lovely holiday". and while its one thing to be blindsided by a lawsuit, it is something else to know its coming and do squat to prepare. its your money, do with it whatever you please. just dont try to act like there was nothing aka could have done to stop this and its up to us, the small but mighty pb community to put a stop to this. if thats your idea, follow shartlys suggestion of a class action lawsuit against sp, but shedding tears for aka is rather pointless.

[Dubstar112]

Hooray for SP:mad: . They are a million dollars closer to owning paintball.:rolleyes: :mad:

[03vert]

"paintball has sold its soul to the corporate devil"
cant remember who said it but its true. in the end its always about #one and how much #one makes. But since i really hate sp ill trow in as much as i can after x-mas which im suspecting is gonna be around 20-30. it'll make my bushy jump for joy:D funny thing is its got sp grips (should be getting new ones) and a freak on it. evolution anno with lines so it doesnt stick out like it should but man do i kick myself when i think ive got that on my bushy. oh yea and if they go after wgp ill throw in at least $100. really.

[LaW]

The people that want to spend their money to help aka are crazy in my opinion but its your money do with it as you please. I also dont like that fact that AKA would be willing to accept public donations. I have a small problem with that but whatever let them do what they want to do.

[theraidenproject]

Originally posted by logamus
my point all along has been that aka has apparently done very little to prepare for this day.
Ok, tell me if I'm wrong here:
Shocker patent approved, Aka started, Viking made, Shocker patent changed to cover all electronic markers. Where does that leave AKA for preparation?
I don't see these donations as giving money to a private company, I see them as keeping Smart Parts from changing OUR sport to accomodate their bottom line. That said, I'm not donating a cent because I'm a poor 15 year old with no job and $150 in debt. I barely afforded a used Emag. The costs of extra lawsuits and a potential SP levy on all e-gun sales will be passed onto the consumer. This means, next time, I might not be able to afford the gun I want. Or, I will buy a lesser mechanical so I'm not giving money to Smart Parts. It would be cheaper to get a decisive court victory for AKA now, so that SP will sue the next company and lose. I don't know who in their right mind would continue suing after a precedent like that. Then, paintball can continue like this mess never happened (except hopefully SP going out of business).

I've been playing for 2 and a half years, I've never owned a SP product, and now I never will.

[Dragonphreak]

I agree with theraidenproject. People don't seem to think that if AKA lost and Had to SP for a patent they didn't rightfully own (In my own opinion) we wouldn't see the cost. If AKA lost and had to pay $50 on every gun they sold, that would raise the cost of the gun $50. We see the costs in the end. If I can donate $10 and prevent having to pay that $50 later on a new gun, it was a good investment, right?

[shartley]

I know I said I was through with this thread, but I HAVE to point out that the talk about passing the cost down to the consumer was the main WARNING folks were yelling when they went after IDC. This process has been going on for how long? And how much has the price of markers gone up BECAUSE of it?

Yes, that theory sounds good typed in a post and using numbers pulled off the top of everyone’s heads, but it never came to be. And since several companies have already entered the fold of SP, you would think the consumer would already notice the “impact”… but they haven’t.

Paintball markers are TOYS. They serve only one purpose… to PLAY. I feel they are ALL overpriced… LOL

[thei3ug]

1) your opinion of the red cross is warped and incorrect, based on popular assumptions and rumors. The red cross is regionally organized and in some locals, the ONLY source of volunteer blood. You don't give, people don't get transfusions. End of story.

2) THe steel industry died for many reasons. My family was a part of the creditors committee for LTV and I spent many of my weekends flying out to Cleveland trying to keep that company afloat before the board took off with what money they could. Poor management structure and high union costs played a part, but when overseas firms don't have to pay their workers a minimum wage, don't have environmental laws, and don't have worker safety laws, and then they dump steel below their cost to flood the US market under the blanket of WTO, of course steel companies are going to go out of business. But of course, that's not the issue, is it? You just wanted to sound smart and talk about industry from a 3rd person perspective. Meanwhile I'm watching families lose their homes because the mills can't burn enough heats to hire him back, and watching grandfathers lose 3/4 of their pensions because when mills go chapter 11, the money turned out not to exist at all. If you want to tell them "i'm sorry, I had to give 20 bucks to a firm that employs 10 people and makes high-tech toys for middle agers, i can't be bothered with your loss," be my guest. That's what I see.

3) This lawsuit will cost AKA probably more than 40,000 dollars, maybe more than 80,000. Who knows, more than that? Maybe you don't understand... I plan on helping. I've been spreading word of this fund, but I will refuse to contribute for free to a for profit organization as a charity. Once again, if this were some sort of loan to assist them i'd be more than happy to, but it isn't. that's what i stated, and you made it into a moral crusade of The Greater Good, which I should probably remind you that I'm an Objectivist, and don't believe that the greater good is good at all.

4) this thread isn't for the like minded. it's for the discussion of the topic. If you want to play thread commando, start your own board where you can be moderator.

You are all defending AKA. I have no problem with that. You want to help in the lawsuit, though whatever money you bring in will be a nickel compared to what AKA puts up. That is also fine. I never demanded you stop. I questioned the ETHICS of DONATING MONEY to a FOR PROFIT organization. IF you see a contradiction, that if they win the lawsuit, it means they basically made whatever money went into the fund as a PROFIT, and still don't mind, that's fine. I am merely POINTING OUT that fact.

If you think that even admitting that is wrong, and I should mind my own business... well, take it off a public forum, because telling people that they shouldn't voice their opinion where people will read it when you voice yours is rather silly.

[spantol]

I never said that you couldn't voice your opinion. I was merely pointing out that it was off topic, and bad form.

This thread, as stated in the original post, is for those that wish to contribute to AKA's defense--while knowing full well that they're supporting a for-profit organization, and that they're under know moral or ethical obligation to do so--to chime in, and to keep a running total of pledges. A similar thread is running in the AKA forum at PBNation, and it will be interesting to see how the totals compare.

If you wish to discuss the relative merits for and against doing so, you're welcome to start a new thread, one expressly for that purpose. I'll note that the PBNation thread has actually managed to stay relatively on-topic, while this one veered far off around the top of page two.

[Hexis]

Originally posted by thei3ug
I questioned the ETHICS of DONATING MONEY to a FOR PROFIT organization. IF you see a contradiction, that if they win the lawsuit, it means they basically made whatever money went into the fund as a PROFIT, and still don't mind, that's fine. I am merely POINTING OUT that fact.


www.m-w.com
Main Entry: eth·ic
Pronunciation: 'e-thik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek EthikE, from Ethikos
Date: 14th century
1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a : a set of moral principles or values b : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> c plural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> d : a guiding philosophy

It's clear there is no single set of principles in this group (which is fine). This puts us in the relm of individual principles. Since we are applying our own individual principles to the situation, perhaps we can simply leave the matter at folks will do what they feel is right, and leave others to make the same decision.

thei3ug you may feel that donating money to a for profit corporation is worthless. Others may see it as donating to the painball community in general, through a for profit company.

Implying a donation is ethicaly wrong applies your set of values and principals to others.

[sygyzy]

I haven't been following everything 100% but I like how AKA has to be convinced to set up a legal defense fund to benefit THEM!

That's like saying "if you guys really want, you can give us money."

Rediculous. A better solution would have been them asking for help rather than have their customer solicit them to offer help.

[Dragonphreak]

To me, they didn't say anything, its like the analogy already given where they just had a basket of money dropped on the door with a note saying "Keep up the fight."

[DK1]

Originally posted by shartley
I know I said I was through with this thread, but I HAVE to point out that the talk about passing the cost down to the consumer was the main WARNING folks were yelling when they went after IDC. This process has been going on for how long? And how much has the price of markers gone up BECAUSE of it?

Yes, that theory sounds good typed in a post and using numbers pulled off the top of everyone?s heads, but it never came to be. And since several companies have already entered the fold of SP, you would think the consumer would already notice the ?impact?? but they haven?t.

Paintball markers are TOYS. They serve only one purpose? to PLAY. I feel they are ALL overpriced? LOL

Well, not to stir the fire, but ICD markers did increase in price for the 2k4 year. They didn't say why, but they did issue the notice.

DK1

[shartley]

Originally posted by DK1
Well, not to stir the fire, but ICD markers did increase in price for the 2k4 year. They didn't say why, but they did issue the notice.

DK1
Like I said….. BECAUSE of it… not simply prices going up. Prices for products go up all the time for LOTS of reasons.

No, you didn’t really stir the fire. You didn’t post anything that would do that at all. My statement remains solid. To disprove my statement it has to be shown that the price increase was ONLY caused by the SP agreement.

[DK1]

oh sure, prices go up all the time, I never said that the price hike was due to SP. I just find it interesting that a company that has been either lowering its prices or improving their markers without increasing price for the past 4 years would all of the sudden throw a $85 hike across pretty much all their product line. I'll shoot them an email about it... not that I expect them to answer that question.

DK1

[tr0n]

Originally posted by logamus
its a cold hard world boys and girls, you can either compete or you cant.

Yeah but when you are stifling competition through unfair legal matters intead of making a better product or a lower price range, there's a problem. It's wrong.