Style over Substance

[Tyger]

Can't sleep, so I thoght I'd bring this up.

I still see a frightening trend that's been around a while. Style over Substance. Doesn't matter how well it works, as long as it looks good or it's deemed a being the best thing since compressed air.

Last time I reffed, some kids were talking about their dream setup. And they kept on talking about getting a "Low pressure" setup. I've never seen any diffrence between high and low pressure, so I asked them bluntly. "Why do you need low pressure?"

The answer? "I don't know. It's cool."

I like the Mag. Simple, elegant, but it's not "sexy" anymore. With the e-trigger, there's no reason it shouldn't be in more hands. But it's not "Cool" looking. It can't really be heavily milled, and it desn't come stock with a dragon's head or fish scales milled into the body. You can powdercoat, you can anno, but it doens't look cool enough. Either that, or it's not the "Gun of the Month Club" material because they don't hire models to show the stuff off in magazines. They have real players show you their real 'Mags. Substance over style? Possibly, but I like AGD's style. Let's see BE or WDP's president take on Shatner...

Meanwhile, I see a lot of players falling all over themselves to buy the "Uber-k00l and l337" mill jobs made from a 'cocker body, or someone with a "Dremmel and a dream" doing things to an Angel. Or they buy a barrel that's all chromed out becasue it looks cool on their Chromed gun. Or they add "Performance Mods" that only perform the function of putting money into a manufacturars pocket. Or even more fun, players put on mods that they never need. Like a fully red-chromed 16" drop forward.

Come on, that's just silly, but if it looks cool, bolt it on and let's go to town! :rolleyes:

I'm old school. I believe in buying substance, not hype. I don't care if it's a square rod bored down the middle, if it makes a ball go straighter than the basic barrel, I'll try it. I've become convinced that there's two basic types of paintball players in the world : The ones who want to impress the other players in the parking lot, and the ones who impress the other players on the field.

Sorry, just venting. I'll try to go back to bed now...

-Tyger

[shartley]

Much of what you say is correct. But please keep in mind that style has always been a selling point for products and always will. And there will always be a vast market for those that put higher priority on style as long as the product functions reasonably well.

[Albinonewt]

Yeah, when was the last time you saw a Ford commercial that said "Hey, we know it's ugly bu it gets great mileage"

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
Yeah, when was the last time you saw a Ford commercial that said "Hey, we know it's ugly bu it gets great mileage"

What about the VW Bug campaign? They know they hae an ugly car, and yet, they sell 'em

-Tyger (Did I really say I was going to bed?)

[Sir_Brass]

What I don't understand is if it's really style over substance these days, then why aren't there more emags being sold, what with capo toting one :D. That's enough to make most of us go out and buy one right off the shelf :p :D.


Ok, all joking (somewhat :D) aside, I do think it's becoming style over substance. But when it comes to lasting impressions, it's still substance over style. I was using my sniper this weekend (she was just calling to me. I couldn't resist :p), and was using it to as much of it's potential as I could (read as: I was using it as best I knew how, as I'm relatively new to pump play), and managed to unintentionally impress several new players (the ones most suseptibal to hype) with how I used it. Here's what one conversation looked like with two new players after we had played our first round of Bunker assault. The two new players had been on the defending team, and I was on the attacking team.

New Player 1: "Man, you were good out there. Got me right in between the fingers."

Me: "Thanks. It was pure luck. I was doing all I could to just put paint into the firing slots to keep y'alls heads down."

New Player 2: "Hey, that's a nice gun you have there. What is it?"

Me: "WGP Sniper. Sweet little pump gun."

New Player 1 (points to pump handle): "What's that thing?"

Me: "This is a pump handle. The sniper is a pump class gun."

New Player 2 (looks amazed): "You mean you have to pump that thing before every shot?!"

Me: "Yup"

New Player 2: "WOW! Man, you can fire that thing fast!"

Me: *shrugs* "I did what I could. The pump action is smooth, and when I needed to lay down cover fire, I did so."

New Player 1: "Cool!"


Somehow me managing to get them both out by luck shots (on my part), and doing it with a pump gun while avoiding getting hit by their return fire, and having earlier provided cover fire with the sniper impressed the heck out of them. Hopefully they're getting indoctrinated into the "Skill over style, but if you're good with it and it looks good, then why not." school of thought. It's my school of thought, after all. I will take substance over style any day, but given a choice between two relatively equal products, I'll take the one that visually goes with my marker, and I'll be willing to hold out for it for a while as well. Earlier, I didn't care, but now I do care how my marker looks, but still, if it's for looks only, then it's low low low on the priority list. The priorities are the mods and upgrades that will allow me to shoot more varieties of paint (including generic white box paint) straighter and more consistantly, like a good barrel, or a drop/stock (for the sniper) or a good regulator (already have one on both of my guns :)).

Substance over style, but if I can get style after putting the most substance into the gun, then I'll go for some style as well. Case in point: I'm thinking about emailing SHartley and talking about some full wrap around wood grips (covering both front and back of the grip frame) for the sniper. THough this has substance in and of itself as well: namely, keeping my hands from freezing. The gripframe nearly froze my hand, what with it being metal and my palm being in contact with it most of the day in sub freezing weather. Full wrap arounds will provide some insulation against the cold. STill, they look great as well, and that's another reason I'd like them :).

[RRfireblade]

"It is better to look good than feel good,my friend,and you looook mahvealous!!"

;)

Jay.

[Furby]

Oh c'mon Tyger! You know darn good and well that splash annodizing adds at LEAST 4-5 bps to your ROF, and it makes your gun more accurate, too! Jeez!

I could go on and on about Style, Substance, and reality here, but I won't. However, I will say that one of the best things about paintball as a sport is that a majority of the markers in use are upgradeable to the user's taste. We could go on and on about little TWiBs running around with horrifically ugly Timmies and lament the fact that the simple, lethal good looks of a ULE'd Emag more than likely outperforms the Timmy. There will always be a particular sect of players out there who want to look good, some to the point where they care more about looking good than playing good. And there will always be an opposing sect of players out there who will look down their noses at these players while coddling their bone stock Matrix, Emag or 'cocker that's had the crap beat out of it because those players are out PLAYING rather than preening in the parking lot.

As for myself, I use an Adrenalin Angel with the silly air assist, splash annodizing and match anno'd (of course) barrel. It's a stereotypical "$2000 Penis Replacement" that Tyger has lamented about in the past. To me, it's a dream gun, and I adore it. I also take it out on the field and USE it, since that's what it was meant to do. I'm the most demanding of players out there...it has to look good AND perform. It's all about personal preference...

And before any wiseacres comment on my need for a "$2000 Penis Replacement" gun, let me say that the wife is quite happy with my uh...well..you know. At least she says she is, so it's all good!

[Spaceman613]

What about the guys like me that want substance AND style? Im ugly as sin, so my markers have to be somewhat good looking. But I wont put on anything JUST for looks.

[tony3]

Originally posted by Furby
We could go on and on about little TWiBs running around with horrifically ugly Timmies and lament the fact that the simple, lethal good looks of a ULE'd Emag more than likely outperforms the Timmy.

Ummmm, you wish.

Tyger you like agd's style? Oh yeah, making a pretty body and annoing it and selling it for 1350. The exact same thing as an emag(plus ace). Oh yeah, but xmag bodies make the gun shoot straighter, I forgot. Please get over yourself, and stop proclaiming agd as gods.

[tyrion2323]

Tyger,

You have some good points here, but I think that you're being too critical. First of all, WDP's Angels DO perform as well/or better than they look. They are amazing markers, simply put. I would take a $800 Speed over a $1350 xMag definitely!

I also love AGD's style, and I understand your lamenting over the 'mag not being "cool" anymore. I love the look of mags. What we need is AGD to start pouring their own bodies, instead of getting sluggos milled. If they pour bodies, like Psycho Ballistics, they could easily sell a cool looking body for <$100, which would upgrade the looks of the mag.

As for low/high pressure and open/close bolt, I still don't even know what the hell the difference is between any of them. I know that I love my mag and my omen.

[Spaceman613]

ok... I have to ask

"What we need is AGD to start pouring their own bodies, instead of getting sluggos milled. If they pour bodies, like Psycho Ballistics, they could easily sell a cool looking body for <$100, which would upgrade the looks of the mag."

What the heck are you talking about.... Pouring bodies? Do you mean cast? You must not know the costs and limitations of casting if this is what you mean.

[GT]

Originally posted by Tyger
there's two basic types of paintball players in the world : The ones who want to impress the other players in the parking lot, and the ones who impress the other players on the field.-Tyger

That will make me a very nice sig young man:D

[ExtremeODD]

the hype of low pressure is that theres a chance that if the pressure is uber low, the bolt has a chance to bounce off a ball, instead of chopping.... but weve all heard of the guy and his matrix, getting his finger basically shattered and stuck in, while "finger testing" his low pressure....

[GT]

Originally posted by ExtremeODD
the hype of low pressure is that theres a chance that if the pressure is uber low, the bolt has a chance to bounce off a ball, instead of chopping.... but weve all heard of the guy and his matrix, getting his finger basically shattered and stuck in, while "finger testing" his low pressure....

can i get a link?

[Timmee]

Well, you can get style AND substance with an electro or mechanical 'Mag (with the ULE, X, SFL, Micro, Chord, Karta, Dallara, or any of the other slug based bodeis).

[krafty]

I briefly got caught up in the 'latest and greatest' trend and bought a spanking new Bushmaster. Big mistake. I'm now beginning the process of selling it and going old-skool (if the new RT Pro custom could be considered old) and heading back to mech guns.

And all my guns are (or will be) single-colored and non-flashy. Basic black is SOOOO sexy...

[Albinonewt]

Yeah, I'm all for Style in addition to substance. I may even sacrafice a little substance for a LOT of style. (say the gun was slightly unfomfortable in the front grip but was so slick looking and original that everyone had to take notice). But overall I tend to think you can accomplish both. It's not like a cool anno job detracts from the substance any.

[tony3]

Originally posted by krafty
I briefly got caught up in the 'latest and greatest' trend and bought a spanking new Bushmaster. Big mistake. I'm now beginning the process of selling it and going old-skool (if the new RT Pro custom could be considered old) and heading back to mech guns.

And all my guns are (or will be) single-colored and non-flashy. Basic black is SOOOO sexy...

Sorry buddy, bushies aren't the "latest and greatest". You guys are totally brainwashed by agd.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Sir_Brass
Substance over style, but if I can get style after putting the most substance into the gun, then I'll go for some style as well. Case in point: I'm thinking about emailing SHartley and talking about some full wrap around wood grips (covering both front and back of the grip frame) for the sniper. THough this has substance in and of itself as well: namely, keeping my hands from freezing. The gripframe nearly froze my hand, what with it being metal and my palm being in contact with it most of the day in sub freezing weather. Full wrap arounds will provide some insulation against the cold. STill, they look great as well, and that's another reason I'd like them :).
Thanks. :) I look forward to helping.

[Tyger]

Few thigns to hit :

Tony3 : I could have brought up the simpe elegance of the Icon Z too, but that's old school. Tippman's guns aren't elegant, as much as they just work. AGD's guns are elegant in their base simplicty, and they work. So are CCI Phantoms too. We happen to be on the AGD forum, I'm using AGD becasue we all can understand what I'm talking about.

And I do like AGD's style.

Sir Brass : Some people need a "hard lesson" that you don't need flash to be a good player. Charley's got a bunch f paitball patches. "Paintball Lesson, 5 cents" But that's the mentality I'm talking about. Buy stuff not because it wil help your performance, buy it becuae it's flashy. Paintball seems to be filled with either magpies or raccoon. "OOOOOO!!!! SHINY THING!!!!!"

Furb : We've been over this before. If I could "whip it out" and mark someone at 200 feet, I wouldn't NEED a paintgun. **UNF** :D

Tryon : It's not about bing criical of AGD, it's more about the players here. If it's shiny, it's gotta be better than the stock version! I really have considered buying a slggo body, and leaving it chunky. Just to do it. Prove a point.

I don't know. It just disheartens me when I hear kids tell me "I want an (Insert gun here)" and they have no idea WHY they want this gun, other than "It costs more, so it's gotta be better." I also get a litle shakey when I hear players talking about "absolutely needing" a barrel from "Company X" so it wll complete "THE LOOK" of a gun. "Function follows form, they say, or have I got that wrong?"

You can have Substance that is stylish, yes. But too often I see people buying eye-candy, and wasting money on it. I'm old school, true. Gimme a so-called "Ugly Gun" that shoots laser beams, and I don't care if oyu think it's a warthog. Call it names in the dead box all you want. I won't mind.

-Tyger

[Furby]

Tyger, if you could whip it out and mark someone from 200 feet away, you wouldn't be a paintball writer...you'd be a porn star!

[FutureMagOwner]

lol

me likes my emag its got style and that other thing you guys were talking about...

my gz timmy has uhhhhhh no style and barely any substance id hate it if i didnt pay 75 bucks and the worlds worst gun in existance (an impulse :rolleyes: ) for it.


then i got my trusty/ rusty sl-68 II gets more use then my friggen timmy lol.


tony i have a timmy and i have an emag, my emag absolutely blows the timmy out of the water in every regard its the best damn gun i have ever used and probably ever will use PERIOD!

[Sir_Brass]

Gimme a so-called "Ugly Gun" that shoots laser beams, and I don't care if oyu think it's a warthog.

mmmm, Warthog :D. I'm thinking of the A-10 right now. Beautiful plane :D. They call her ugly, but with that chain gun in the nose that can bust tanks like it was none of it's business, well, that takes all the ugly right out of her :D. That, added to the fact that you don't hear an A-10 till she's right on top of you :D. Heh heh.

Sort of like my blazer: doens't have the best curves by a long shot, but it's still deadly :D.

[03vert]

if its a beast preformer then it doesnt matter if it looks like your shooting what looks like a trash can that has one too many collisions with the neigbor's blazer. cough cough

[tony3]

Originally posted by Tyger
Few thigns to hit :

Tony3 : I could have brought up the simpe elegance of the Icon Z too, but that's old school. Tippman's guns aren't elegant, as much as they just work. AGD's guns are elegant in their base simplicty, and they work. So are CCI Phantoms too. We happen to be on the AGD forum, I'm using AGD becasue we all can understand what I'm talking about.


I don't know if I'm missing your point or if you are missing mine. You are complaining that players are taking pretty guns over true preforming guns. You "claim" yourself as "oldschool", but really, how many guns back in '92 were there with top of the line cnc milling and custom reverse acid wash dust fades? Guess what? Nowadays you can get good looking and preforming guns in 1 package. Amazing huh?

[xXHavokXx]

See that's why i shoot an angel. Beautiful looking gun that lays massive ropes of paint accurately.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by tony3

You are complaining that players are taking pretty guns over true preforming guns. You "claim" yourself as "oldschool", but really, how many guns back in '92 were there with top of the line cnc milling and custom reverse acid wash dust fades? Guess what? Nowadays you can get good looking and preforming guns in 1 package. Amazing huh?

Sarcasm aside. At the risk of sounding like one of those old guys on the porch with a rocking chair...

In '92, guns were made to perform. Look at the 'Mag. It has, basically, remained the same over the years. Ok, so it' sbeen improved, but nothing cosmetically. I can take a '91 Mag and an '03 Mag, put them side by side, and they look similar.

The main guns in '92 weren't really made for looks. Arguably, the VM-68 / PMI-3 was made with a weird kinda 'anno' job, but it was made to be a freaking workhorse. The Icon Z, the Illustrator, Vector, All made to perform.

Now you could get an Icon in colors. I couldget a Rebel pump in colors. I think TASO made a camo-anno gun too. And you saw them occasinally. You also had companies that made worthless mods (Magic Box) for guns, but it wasn't for asthetics, it was performance promises that, for the most part, didn't work or was 60% hype.

Now you get a gun to match your team's color scheme for the year. But I see more players buying thngs to mod their guns out that are, at best, frivolous and at worst, decrease the performance of their gear. And why? It looks cool. It's sexy. It's the "Mod of the Month".

Hey, if you get something that's high-end performance, and it works, cool. I just see too many people who can't leave a working machine well enough alone and muck it up by adding something tha's all "bling" and no "work".

That's the point. Style over Substance rules the game, becasue the prevailing winds come down to "it's better to look cool in the lot."

It's kinda like "Chuff Chuff", but more directly aimed.

-Tyger

[Sir_Brass]

at the risk of sounding ignorant, will someone explain this whole "chuff chuff" thing to me?

[Tyger]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93751

From Tom himself.

-Tyg

[.tMan]

Dangit Tyger, you beat me to it
Do you ever sleep man!?

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Tyger, Think about the state of paintball in those days. It was by far and large entirely woods based. Think of the image of paintball at that time also.

Now contrast that to now, plus the fact for most markers performance is not an issue. Most markers perform well enough for all uses. What is performance gains nowadays? What is performance for that matter?

There will always be those who beleive in things that do not matter, LP vs HP for instance, but to judge a group by the least, seems almost dooming any group to the same stereotype. I can pick up almost any mid range marker, uled mag to bushmaster and to be honest the only things that differentiate them are how it feels when I shoot it and how it looks.

Az

[Sir_Brass]

becasue the prevailing winds come down to "it's better to look cool in the lot."

but what they forget is that you do NOT look cool even with all the bling bling on your marker and jersey if you're in the dead box with paint on your mask, b/c you couldn't perform as well as the guy with the 'ugly' hyperframed RT pro who happened to land an accurate snap shot due to his school of thought of skill and performance over style ;).

Thanks for redirecting me to that thread, tyger. But still, care to explain how the phrase "chuff chuff" came about? I'm still a little foggy on that one.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Tanner Johnson
Dangit Tyger, you beat me to it
Do you ever sleep man!?

To abuse the great Billy Shakes :

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
To die: to sleep;
No more

:)

Az : A good point, but problem isn't the people who buy performance, but buy what looks good. And it's just annoying to me. Granted, back in the day we played woods, and it helped to have a black gun. Ad now we see people who want to make it on the cover of the mags, and think they can look good and make it there. **sigh** It just looks ridiculous, in some cases. Or they get something without understanding what they want, or need.

Does that make sense?

-Tyger

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Sir_Brass

Thanks for redirecting me to that thread, tyger. But still, care to explain how the phrase "chuff chuff" came about? I'm still a little foggy on that one.

It's the sound of a 'mag, L 10, when it stops on a ball rather than chopping it. So it became kinda the rally cry of "We're not gonna swallow that pill"

Beyond that, you'll have to ask Tom Kaye. It was his idea. :)

-Tyger

[The Action Figure]

I agree with most of what your sayin, but my mag looks awesome, and its still the best gun on the field

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Tyger: I assume you informed the group of people that LP vs HP is not a very big thing. That in some cases it can be a detriment. The problem is not really style but ignorance. If your friends, store owner, manufacturers, all say X shoots Y faster and better, then you are going to beleive that. Only when someone comes along with a bit of knowledge do opinions change. In my early days I bought a boomstick , why? Because everyone agreed it shot better straighter farther. I bought a cocker because everyone said it shot farther better straighter. I found out and studied and thus became an informed person.

Az

[Miscue]

This is what happens when people do not understand how what they are using works. The only thing that they understand is that: a marker is visually appealing, other people/friends use it, and it costs X dollars which you would think is correlated with performance.

I see this in almost every hobby that involves equipment. In car audio, people are concerned with wattage only, off the shelf brands, and how it looks. They have no idea how any of it works, or what makes one component better than another. I'm sure those who are good at other hobbies have noticed something comparable.

If you look at a Hernnstein/Murray type distribution curve, and correlate this with consumer buying trends, it is no surprise that style (the superficial) is king.

<img src="http://www.oswego.edu/~srp/stats/images/normal_34.gif">

I think that 2 standard deviations to the right of the mean is about where you find people who look beyond the superficial and can value form (substance). And, the rest are hopelessly lost - they place high value on superficial things and get performance by accident... because that's all they can do.

[RRfireblade]

Damn,it's pretty cramped over here in .015:(


Jay.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Actually I would wager that marker buying may not look like a symetrical curve. My guess, purely a guess that the mean would lay around 300ish, the median would be below that and the range would be 1500ish, discounting a few outliers, ie that PPS marker that someone paid 3k for ;)

Az

[Sir_Brass]

Originally posted by Miscue


<img src="http://www.oswego.edu/~srp/stats/images/normal_34.gif">



and this, folks, is what you know in school as a BELL CURVE ;).

[Carbon]

Diagrams are neat!

Lets face it, not all of us are minimalist.

AS is the case with many other engineered products, one can put a number(s) to "measure" performance. And as for cool looks, thats all subjective, obviously. Yes, a machine will route a path on a peice of aluminum, but you cant discount the fact there is a person who had to design the mill pattern. There is a degree of "artistry" involved. Futhermore, that "artistry" has to remain within parameters, we dont want to mill stuff to thin now do we.

And as much as pball the game is a team sport, pball the culture is individualiezd. I mean, why have a stock aluminum difling pin when you can have a blue aluminum one, with a skull on it. becasue you can. Speaking of flashy, why does Tyger dress like a tiger in his sig? Cause he can.

I think it is a common nuerosis among us "informed consumers" or more closely, "life style obssesd consumers" to want to help the un-inforemd. But from time to time, we come across the greatest challenge for "us" to bear with: those who wont listen. I mean, whadaya gonna do?