An Interesting Thought on how to Control the ROF with Cheater Boards

[AGD]

AO,

There has been much debate of late on how to regulate the cheating going on with aftermarket boards for electros. Many proposals have been put forth but none seem to fit the bill.

I have an idea to throw in the mix. Have a "standard" e-gun with a short / light trigger pull equivalent to how most guns are setup. This gun would be controlled by the refs or tournament organizer and has known, validated legal software in it. Players before the event, or maybe after a particular game, would shoot this particular marker over a speed crono and record their highest FOR REAL BPS rating. This would get recorded on paper somewhere.

While on the field simple sound recordings could profile the max shots per second and give a readout of the firing rate in real time. If the player is found to be shooting past their pre-tested limit they forfeit the game.

This seems to be a no bones about it method to put a clamp on whats actually happening on the field. Since Diablo spent 100k to get the radio cronos to display on the scoreboard this shouldn't be much of a trick. I think you will find that the reality is no one can shoot past 15 so anyone above that would be automatically suspect.

Your thoughts?

AGD

[magman007]

tom, why not just include bluetooth technology into electros, and make it mandatory for electros to have a board with the technology incorporated, then have the blue tooth record max bps reached ingame, and sent to a central computer for evaluation in correlation with the chrono readings?

[Big_Chops]

i think that this is an awsome idea.hopefully somebody will take action

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

How easy is it going to be to get everyone to use the same type of marker? Maybe have one compony in charge of electronics for all guns that the manufacturers go to with their guns so that all triggers are same? Just seems like that wouldn't work either.

[Bad_Dog]

and during the game, while taking recordings to tell if the players are cheating, how do you tell one player's shots from another? You'll end up with players saying "they recorded someone else"...?

[stealth assassin]

This is off the wall, but why not let them shoot as fast as they want, no limit; only limit the paint ( so many pods )When your out of paint, your out of paint.:)

[Miscue]

Seems like a 15bps ROF cap to me... except much more involved.

Electronically prevent from people to go above 75mph, or instead chase them with cop cars and radar guns instead of preventing the problem to begin with.

[Steelrat]

I dont think it will work. The trigger setup and "feel" on the various guns are different enough that a person may be able to shoot well on one, but not on another. I also think it may be a bit harsh to forfeit the game just because you may have managed to shoot faster than you did before the game. Heck, I have games where I shoot great, then the next game i cant hit the same ROF. Just too many variables involved.

[1stdeadeye]

How hard would it be to standardize all of the boards? If it is a huge capital cost, why woud other manufacturers go along with it?

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by AGD
AO,


I have an idea to throw in the mix. Have a "standard" e-gun with a short / light trigger pull equivalent to how most guns are setup. This gun would be controlled by the refs or tournament organizer and has known, validated legal software in it. Players before the event, or maybe after a particular game, would shoot this particular marker over a speed crono and record their highest FOR REAL BPS rating. This would get recorded on paper somewhere.

While on the field simple sound recordings could profile the max shots per second and give a readout of the firing rate in real time. If the player is found to be shooting past their pre-tested limit they forfeit the game.


AGD

I don't like it.

A) People will just argue that they are "used" to their gun therefore able to shoot it faster.Also,for instance,poeple always say I shoot way faster during a game which could be true based on being amped up on adrenalin.('course,maybe not.:))

And #2- This just opens the door for cheater boards that simply make it much easier to hit the established "dial in" speed.For instance,you "dial in" on the test gun,in total concentration,trying your hardest to hit a max bps,then set the cap on your gun to that and allow the "chaeter" board to do the rest.Basically legitmizing a "turbo" or capped full auto setting.

My thoughts,
Jay.

[p8ntball72]

what ever happend to a single trigger frame?
its kinda hard to fan,walk,or piano a single trigger with trigger gaurd.
the only reason anyone ever thought of the double frame in the first place was to increase the ROF anyway.

new rule for 2004 single trigger frames with trigger gaurd only.

[wobbles82]

TK, it sounds like a good idea at first, but there would be way to much complaining. Everyone has preferences, and this would be a battle.

If I may propose this, what tournies are we talking about exactly? I mean I dont want to sound like I know everything, but in Miami, they DID a great job IMO of taking care of this. Sure guns with WAS have debounce, but you have to lock the board, and if you lock the board, and they dont like how the trigger is set, well..your SOL for that game unless ya have a backup. E-Cockers also, they were checking backblocks and debounce, I never thought they would do this.

Im just saying, maybe it is a problem in some tournaments, I know it is in PSP, but as for NPPL, they have been good, heck I would even say too good, downright annoying! If we want to find a real solution, number one, PSP needs better refs! I was tackled by a guy in NPPL, turned out it was a bad, very bad call, but heck, I remember it. At PSP, ive seen multiple headshots off the break especially in 10 man go unnoticed, something to be desired in reffing is always to find the cheaters, and now they must worry about two things so they are practically lost. Maybe if they didnt hire the people sleeping in the park for the Philly event the refs wouldnt be so bad. And lots of tournys are like this, so maybe, just maybe, if their was a standard set of rules on how to check triggers and make sure boards are locked, and having dedicated refs that arent just plain stupid, then maybe just maybe this problem can be eliminated.

Finally, I think we should calm down A BIT about this subject. It is slowly being fazed out IMO, and heck, every gun is capable of cheating. One time my RT-PRO, during a game, just started to lose control of the sear, at a low input. I pulled myself, but heck, not one ref noticed the full auto. We must understand this sport is quickly turning to speed, X-Ball is a prime example. The fast players play, they run fast, they hit fast, and they shoot fast. This is how the game is going to be, the question is will our machine guns exceed us in time? Prolly..:(

[JesseB]

or take the people that care about stuff like this and make a league. And let the big boys fling as much paint as fast as they want.

A ROF cap is ridiculous half the fun is flinging more paint faster than the other team...

[tony3]

I agree with Jesse, the only way to beat cheaters is to beat them at their own game:p

[decimator4]

Well, I could be wrong, but wouldn't the adrenaline of play make u shoot faster on the feild?

[Python14]

Yea, If I'm just sitting around shooting, I can't really shoot that fast. But when I'm playing, and my blood is mostly Adrenlin, I can really rip. Also, I can shoot faster with a gun setup with a slightly longer trigger than most. Using the same gun with a longer trigger pull, I could shoot faster than most.

I think the only way to get around cheater boards is to just get the experts(not jim drew)and randomly audit any guns that the refs feel may be possibly cheating. Have the folks who know the electronics like they know their hands to load up the gun software and check it. If any gun is found to be "cheating" through this audit, then the entire team forfits the tournament. Just simply make the punishment so harsh that the crime is no longer worth the risk. Draconian law.:D

[Bucky]

Originally posted by decimator4
Well, I could be wrong, but wouldn't the adrenaline of play make u shoot faster on the feild?

just what i was going to say.

[paintball8869]

why not just make everyone use a revvy, then there's no problem becuase noone will be shooting above 11 bps :)

I'm still of the belief of "where there's a will, there's a way". Anyone of these rules can and will be broken in one form or another. I dont see the point of spending all this money to develop a technology to prevent cheater boards when everyone can cap their hoppers at say 12 bps, or use a similar hopper. No matter how much your gun bounces, the speed of the loader (12 bps as an example) is how fast you'll actually shoot.

[RobAGD]

Hell at this point I would just say go 15 SPS FA with a sound recorder. if the gun gets more than 15sps the team is given the determined penality.

I know I am one of those people that hwne you get me out actually playing I am way faster. Its a known joke at the field when people have see me in the shop shooting then see me play they think I have my gun set to FA :D

At this point just make it all FA, there isnt any shooting skill left any more its all about volume.

-Robert

[nerobro]

Well, I think audio would make it hard to single out one gun on the field.

Go ahead, train refs to "spot" really fast guns. Seeing someone with a "cheater" board isn't that hard. All I think we really need is a trigger output jack. heck it doesn't even need to be a jack, Just a contact on the outside of the gun.

If someone is thought to be cheating, a $5 device could be rigged up that would count gun cycles, and using a governing body determined debouce setting, debounce and count shots.

it would be cheap to start, cheap to enforce, and easy to enforce.

the jack and wires could be installed by the average inept paintball tech. And because it would lead directly to the trigger switch, (or output line on a HES or eye) you'd get raw trigger data, untainted by boards software.

Basicly you'd be enforcing a mandated debounce level. So if there is a guy or two who can get 20bps, they get to keep it.

[thecavemankevin]

how about this, or for big events anyways.

get some form of camera and atatch it to random players barrels. that way the audiance can enjoy a barrel view up on the jumbo tron and this camera can also monitor the bps. if it goes up to an alarming amount have the reff check the board.

kill two birds with one stone, catch cheaters and give spectators a real neat and unique view of the field.

[Mango]

I'm with magman007, have bluetooth enabeled boards or some other wireless techology and a central computer with each player on the field marked. The bluetooth could transmit when each board is in use and the rof at that moment in real time. It's not impossible with todays technology. Then you could just look at a realtime list of each person and whats going on. If need be, the refs could shut down everyone on the field, etc.

[Aegis]

Golf has the "Iron Byron", which can swing a club at exactly the same speed through the same path time after time. It is used to compare clubs.

How about a paintball equivalent, a machine that can pull at a certain rate and measure shots vs. trigger pulls.

[dinger]

**WHOOSH**

is the sound that was made when that went right over my head

[Blazingace]

There would have to be a variance to it. I know that when I play I shoot faster than justmessing over the chrono. Adrenaline jacks up my rate, not some stupid gun cheat.

[felony]

Originally posted by paintball8869
why not just make everyone use a revvy, then there's no problem becuase noone will be shooting above 11 bps :)

I'm still of the belief of "where there's a will, there's a way". Anyone of these rules can and will be broken in one form or another. I dont see the point of spending all this money to develop a technology to prevent cheater boards when everyone can cap their hoppers at say 12 bps, or use a similar hopper. No matter how much your gun bounces, the speed of the loader (12 bps as an example) is how fast you'll actually shoot.

Affirmitive..

I agree

I like

Makes sense..

No company would let it happen though.. everyones gonna make the money.. greedy people suck

[SeeK]

Stealth assassin, I've been advocating limited paint format for years. It would make budgeting for tourneys easy and allow sponsors to know how much the would need to spend for a tourney among other benefits.

I think nerobro is more on the right track. It's impratical to build any system into current guns because what do you do to guns that aren't electro?

What I'm proposing is a marker Black box.

The device would need to use two audio triggers because it's the easiest to fit on to any marker. The output sound of the attached marker could be recorded before start. Even if one mic picked up other sounds the amplitude and magnatude of the sound event would be a signature of the marker and they should be equal on both mics. This should be consistent throughout all ROFs. Even if it did pick up stray sounds it would not match unless you put the other barrel right up against it.

I'm no electronics expert but it shouldn't be hard to build a small recorder for 2 channels and a timer for about 30 minutes of data. Maybe it will use a beam interruption system or beam reflecting (although we still have problems trying to detect things bouncing off of paintballs). How about a micro RF inferrential system that detects a mass passing through just to be exotic?

The only thing you need to record is either a timestamp and the event or continually record the audio. Wireless monitoring would be nice but just increase the power requirements and complexity. The data could then be returned to the judges for computer processing similar to a Holter monitor to record cardiac events. You could do wireless transmission of the sound but then you run into problems of 10 people per field multiplied by many fields.

You could then write the software to spot sustained ROFs beyond a threshold that seemed reasonable (ie hitting 16 bps for 2 or 3 seconds consistently would be impossible but maybe 16 bps for a second would be possible).

Since you have all of the data you could review all of the shooting patterns and even graph it for everybody to see.

This would also lead to quantifying player characteristics and the start of player stats. Now you have ROF and efficiency (shots per elimination) that you could use to compare one player against another. This is what TV viewers would be looking for to follow certain players through team changes.

[nerobro]

Mechanical guns don't have the ability to "add shots" each shot with a mechanical gun DOES require a trigger movement. And checking a RT for f/a is a very simple task indeed.

[magmonkey]

as long as they record the owner of the marker shooting it over the chrono and not the ref i think it is fine
it would be a cap but not in the general terms if you can shoot 18bps over the chrono with a board that is not cheating feel free to do it on the field but if you cant at the chrono then why were you able to on the field

it is kind of like bracket racing
beat your opponent without beating your own time


I love the blue tooth idea it would make things easy, but you would have to align an entire industry that can't even make up its mind on barrel threading

I get checked ALL the time for fa on my emag the board is semi only it is just that i am really used to the trigger

[Duke Henry]

It really depends on what the sport is trying to become. If Paintball is trying to become a better "Extreme" sport or fringe sport or whatever, then I would argue that using standardized equipment is not a good idea.

However, if the goal is to become something that appeals to everyone (i.e. a sport that most people can pickup from the masses) - standardized equipment is an interesting idea that I have thought of in the past which should eliminate this problem.

People have been making the point that players will argue that they won't feel "used" to their guns, and won't be comfortable using something "foreign", etc. Now, I understand this argument, but I disagree. When we see teams switching gear when they get new sponsorship, where is their argument? Furthermore, I would argue that the majority of players at the "upper" levels should be able to reach a base familiarity with any marker - given the time to practice and play with such gear.

I really believe that using standardized equipment is the way to go to eliminate this problem of cheater boards. For example, if we used the Emag as an example, you could allow the teams to adjust the trigger in whatever way they want, and just to be sure you could consider flashing the board with new software just in case someone messes with the board. However, I think this is a bit much, and should only be done if someone is found messing with the board.

Standardized equipment is the way to go. I am sure I am in the minority here, but it helps to level the playing field between cheaters and non-cheaters.

[krafty]

How about this:

Every new paintball gun that a manufacturer wants in the tourney circuit comes equipped with a standardized jack/port (mini phono, something similar) that accesses the trigger switch loop. You can then hook up a small box to generate trigger pulses at a specific ROF and check that ROF over a chrono - or generate a specific number of shots. If they don't match, toss'em.

[Python14]

Okay, how about they do it like they do before tests in my math class. Make the programs on a gun eraseble. Before each game/tournament, officials erase every electros mem. and reload a program that has 20 BPS, and no measurable trigger bounce. Triggers can be adjusted anyway possible, as long as they don't interferre with trigger bounce. At the end of the tournament, players can reload their own programs from their computers.

It's quick, simple, and fair. No one has a different program.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by krafty
How about this:

Every new paintball gun that a manufacturer wants in the tourney circuit comes equipped with a standardized jack/port (mini phono, something similar) that accesses the trigger switch loop. You can then hook up a small box to generate trigger pulses at a specific ROF and check that ROF over a chrono - or generate a specific number of shots. If they don't match, toss'em.

That's almost exactly what I said :-) It's cheap, easy, and allows multiple avenues of testing.

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
Players before the event, or maybe after a particular game, would shoot this particular marker over a speed crono and record their highest FOR REAL BPS rating...If the player is found to be shooting past their pre-tested limit they forfeit the game.


I would forfeit EVERY game. There is NO way I could equal my adrenaline enhanced tournament game ROF at the chrono. NO WAY. I wouldn't even get close. Besides, how would you determine who was responsible for the ROF being recorded? Match sound signatures of each marker?

[hitech]

Originally posted by nerobro


That's almost exactly what I said :-) It's cheap, easy, and allows multiple avenues of testing.

The cheater board I proposed would NOT be detected by that. :(

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Python14
I think the only way to get around cheater boards is to just get the experts(not jim drew)and randomly audit any guns that the refs feel may be possibly cheating. Have the folks who know the electronics like they know their hands to load up the gun software and check it. If any gun is found to be "cheating" through this audit, then the entire team forfits the tournament. Just simply make the punishment so harsh that the crime is no longer worth the risk. Draconian law.:D

I think that we can all agree that reffing leaves a lot to be desired, even on a good day. You can set up all the rules you want, but if you need refs to enforce them, you will have problems. This proposal puts way too much power and responsibility in the hands of the refs.

Refs already have the power to penalize a team on 3 for 1. Anyone who has ever watched a tournament will see offenses that merit such a penalty, but I do not remeber the last time that penalty was actually used. The most I have ever seen is a 1 for 1 and this was for blatant wiping where a teammate wiped a hit off the guy next to him.

I guess what I am saying is that no matter what sort of enforcement mechanism you come up with, if you have people enforce it, there will be problems. Randomly auditing guns is not the answer because it will be the refs who choose when and who gets audited.

Ogre

[punkncat]

An important aspect is being missed here.
Organizers , and paint manufacturers do not want you to cap ROF.If you take more shots to hit the same targets , why would they want you to stop?Dollar signs fly every shot you take.Slowing ROF cuts into their profit margin.

I do like the hopper idea mentioned before, but what would that do for the Warp,the Halo?

[logamus]

personally, i dont see anything wrong with allowing turbo or even fa. since everyone goes on an on how its the player and not the marker i dont see what the big deal is. unless of course there is something to be said for the marker and that it does play some role in the players ability.

[cledford]

I'm no expert on sound capture - but would think it hard to isolate an individual during play. If there is just a blanket "someone was shooting over Xbps, so you lose points" rule it might be easier but you'd then have no way to satisfy appeals or challenges.

I say the following:

A) Limit paint, don't worry about ROF or bounce. Limited paint would add a tactical dimension to the game that doesn't even exist currently. Even better - make "dead" players drop their packs on the field so the who ever gets their paint first has a "bonus."

B) Go back to limiting feeders. Although I'd hate to hurt Warp sales, if players were only allowed feeders that worked on gravity then the ROF issue would be resolved. It is not original - but effective.

3) add another strap to the goggle systems to make it more secure and let mayhem rule. Full-auto is good, bounce is good - what ever goes.

In my mind everything else is going to run afoul of bad enforcement or relies on yet more technology which opens the door for more cheats.

Honorable mention to the single trigger idea. But it, along with minimum trigger travel or weight requirements, don't address cheater boards or bounce.

-Calvin

[GT]

intresting post...
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=387401

We(industry) need to figure something out soon or posts like these will be the norm....

[Furby]

I'm a little reluctant to enter my opinion into this thread, but here I go anyways:

ROF caps and equipment limitations are crap, and always have been. At the IAO a couple of years ago I got into an extended debate with a head ref about RT. His contention was that RT was an unfair advantage because the gun was doing the work for the player, while I contended that properly using RT was a learned skill that had to be mastered before you could use it effectively in a game. Even in the era of electronic triggering, I feel that his holds true.

While Tom's idea of using a "Iron Byron" marker that's controlled by the refs and the sanctioning body so that players can lay a baseline ROF that they're capable of is attractive in theory, there are too many physiological and psychological factors that will come into play to make this effective in the real world. One of the best things about paintball as an equipment-based sport is that the players can tailor their setups to their personal preferences and requirements. Then you run into the additional obstacle of industry cooperation...as it's been said elsewhere in this thread, nobody really wants to limit ROF, especially the players. The game is growing, and at least in the tournement world, high-rof spraying and praying is how it's done today. The kids starting out in the tournement side of the sport today make a concentrated effort to acquire the best equipment for themselves, and practice the various techniques employed to achieve horrifically fast ROF.

Jim Drew's WAS boards are an added complexity to an already complex scene, but the reality is that the Equalizer won't make or break the sport any more than Constant Air, Semis, or compressed air did.

Just my .02...like it or don't. I fully expect to be flamed for my opinion, but that's okay...I can take the heat.

[fallout11]

Okay, I've heard some good ideas that will probably never be implemented, and a lot of nay-saying.

For the nay-sayers: Just what do you suggest, then?
Just don't worry about it, and let it ride?
ROF's of 20+ are here to stay?

Alright, if so, consider this:
1) A human on foot is only so fast. Even olympic sprinters.
2) The distance between field bunkers is finite.
3) As "average" tourney ROF's increase to 20, 25, and who knows, 30 bps in the future, who will be able to run through a stream of paint?
4) If you can no longer safely "move" from one location to another on the field, who will?
5) Ahh, the game will increasingly become a completely static firefight. We see this somewhat now, with back players pitching a tent.
7) Paintball dies, since it's no longer any fun to hunker behind an inflatible bag, with no means to move without being shot 30 times.

[Mindflux]

Originally posted by magman007
tom, why not just include bluetooth technology into electros, and make it mandatory for electros to have a board with the technology incorporated, then have the blue tooth record max bps reached ingame, and sent to a central computer for evaluation in correlation with the chrono readings?


Someone would simply find a hack to 'transmit' a lower bps number.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Mindflux
Someone would simply find a hack to 'transmit' a lower bps number.

Too true. The [B]ONLY[\B] way to measure FPS/BPS reliably is to have a tournament supplied gizmo that did it.

I do have a great idea for a multipurpose device that would serve this and other purposes. I've sourced many of the components, but don't have any microcontroller experience.

I'd talk directly with TK or a developer if I can invest and get in on the action if the product was made.:D

[nerobro]

Well, controling a servo is easy. the big question is can it cycle 20x a seccond. Servos are also cheap. Programming amicrocontroler to control a servo is braindead easy....

well lets say it's what i'm working on ;-)

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by nerobro
Well, controling a servo is easy. the big question is can it cycle 20x a seccond. Servos are also cheap. Programming amicrocontroler to control a servo is braindead easy....

not thinking about servos.

Real time tracking of every players fps, bps, standard deviation of those two, line of sight, and location on field. Also, direction of view and location on field of all referees. As well as notification of players when eliminated by a referee.

Note quite so easy....:(

But I have found parts and research papers adressing every bit of functionality I'm after.:D

But, dat's a lot o lurnin.:( :p

[edweird]

Originally posted by Miscue
Seems like a 15bps ROF cap to me... except much more involved.

Electronically prevent from people to go above 75mph, or instead chase them with cop cars and radar guns instead of preventing the problem to begin with.

Cue... Im for playing cops and robbers like that... just as long as I get a tire stop strip to throwdown everytime I get a runaway gun when I ref =P

But really I think in the open marker class you will never see a true escape from "Cheater boards". after all noone expects NASCAR to run on 98 octane gas, obviously some are going to blur the line of legality and go for that edge. I think that unless we see some cooperation from board makers this will not change any time soon

If ya want to play on a even keel that is what Stock and Mech only classes would be geared to. Um like I would do =P

[SkyBoySurfer]

yes and let me know when they get camras in there to stop all the cheating...

Instint replay would change the sport in a heart beat...but mabe thats for 05....NPPL claim they dont have enough money to put a few simple video camras in..but they can afford to bring reffs from overseas ...pay for there plain ticket,Room,food,and pay them 150$ a day...but they cant aford 4 camras and a monitor...or just hire a out side production crew for just the fraction of the cost.

Instint replay is what will change the face of paintball...and hopefully with Fox covering it ...it will slowly be realized.

[nerobro]

A servo controled test rig would be cheap. Think $60-70 a pop. Servos are $10, the board and chip would be another $20, and then you need a stand to put the gun in.

:-) at that price, EVERY field could afford one.

[maglover52]

yeah but some times people can get a betetr rythem with the adrenilin rushes. like in a game with a good adrenilin rush i can get like 16 raking on my matrix. but if im just playin in the back yard i can only get like 14. just a thought to throw in there.

[shades]

To those who would whine over standardized equipment.
Take a look at any motor sport from soap box to Nascar they regulated them so tightly that you are forced to show your skill.

[Crimson_Turkey]

I say the tourney attaches a chrono to the end of each player's barrel. If Fps gets nasty, ref can be there as soon as it happens. If the bps is a a steady rate, since on semi auto a human will have differing intervals between shots. Now cheater boards would eventually adapt to this so that it would look like semi to the refs. But when bps is high and sustained for a long time a ref could be sent to check the gun. Say one of these things would run 150-200 plus a reciever unit for about 400. Big tourneys could easily afford this, as could alot of good fields.

[Brophog]

I commend you on effort Tapping. Without you to provide a counter argument, we wouldn't be getting all this mental exercise.

There is only two options here: Either legalize full auto/turbo/cheater boards OR keep them illegal. If the user is not in direct control of his firing, i.e. "1 shot/1 pull" then its illegal, as long as the above options are illegal.

Your absolutely right that enforcement is very tough. In the mechanical days, when it was in large part agreed upon that full auto was illegal, it was very easy to implement the semi only rules. However, now with electronics, RT's and trigger bounce, it is very easy for people to shoot higher ROF by being "assisted" by the marker. In my book any marker that shoots more than one shot per user inputted trigger pull is illegal. That includes sweetspotted Automag RT's, and Tippmann RT's. Simply holding your finger in one place and letting the trigger bounce back and forth is not one trigger pull.

Your also correct that the "illegals" are always one step a head of the rules. That however is not justification for not instituting and enforcing rules. Think of steroid use in sports. I think it is commonly agreed that it should be illegal, even though enforcement is extremely tough. Some steroids leave the body earlier than others and are undetected. Companies are constantly producing illegal steroids that are undectable by the testing agencies. However, the testing agencies eventually catch up, and the cycle is repeated with a new mechanism for defeating the testing.

Using your example of fairness, maybe we should just allow all athletes to dope up. According to you, as long as its "fair" then there should not be a rule against it, right? Allow all athletes that can afford it to cheat, just like your condoning all paintball players than can afford it to do the same. Its all fair that way correct? According to you and others, paintball players should cheat because others are doing the same, even though there are consequences for doing such. That's how the atheletic world works as well. Some guys cheat with drugs and risk getting caught. Some guys cheat because others are cheating. That still doesnt make it fair for those who still play with honor and integrity, those whom are above cheating at all costs.

Just because its "fair" doesn't make it right, whether that implies to athletics or paintball. If you are illegally getting an edge, that is wrong. Steroids are wrong, and so are illegal paintball markers.

[OfficerGoat]

Personaly I also think the answer is onboard telemitry. However I think the telemitry units should be seperate from the guns and issued by the refs prior to the match. It would be easy to setup a barrel chrono and to monitor the trigger and when it is pulled. At that point who cares what board is in the gun or how the dwell changes etc etc etc... The player pulls the trigger once the gun shoots onece... if it shoots more the refs will know right then and there what is up. The important bit here is that the gear will atach to any gun.. mechanical or no... and is acurate. I think it can be done... no... I KNOW this can be done. :)

The other thing about this is it give teams the advantage of knowing what is going on with their guns at all times. I would love to know if a gun is shooting down or is suffering from inconsistancy. It would also let techs know if the eyes are missing and players are getting dry fires and the circumstances when this happens. Makes for some serious tuning capabilites.

Also wouldn't it be cool to see shots fired and average bps next to a players name? I know it would be cool to see that number and how fast it climbs right off the break.

So far as cheaters bypasing this... sure it could happen... would it be hard to pull off... yes and thats the whole point. Does random drug testing catch all of the players using drigs? Nope. Does having the CHP patrol stop speeders? Nope. Then whats the point? It reduces the problem and reduces the vlagrancy of which people break the rules. And thats a pretty good start.

[hitech]

Originally posted by OfficerGoat
Personally I also think the answer is onboard telemetry.

The problem is cost. MINIMUM of $500 per unit. Chronos that can process every shot up to 20bps or more are expensive. Add the trigger monitor that works with EVERY marker and the telemetry hardware and it gets expensive fast. It would work well, but cost WAY to much.

[OfficerGoat]

I think I can beat that price... by alot. Anyone remember a bit of vaporware called the Cyber9000?? It had these abilitys and was a competitively priced marker. Only reason it never made it to market is that Smart Parts pulled the lets sue another manufacture out off biz trick that they are so fond of.

Even if It were twice that per gun ... if you are going to put the sport on television it would be well worht it and the Entertainment industry can afford that sort of stuff.

[hitech]

Originally posted by OfficerGoat
I think I can beat that price... by alot.

Then it would make a great product, regardless of it's possible tournament use. As you said, tuning/testing would be FAR easier. You chould easily determine what effect your changes had on GAME TIME performance.



Originally posted by OfficerGoat
Even if It were twice that per gun ... if you are going to put the sport on television it would be well worth it and the Entertainment industry can afford that sort of stuff.

They might, but getting anyone to spend the money isn't going to happen. :(