AO Research Team Need your Opinion!!!

[AGD]

Team AO,

In an effort to greatly reduce ball breakage we have developed a prototype long stroke bolt and valve. The bolt seals further into the barrel before shooting the ball and takes longer to reset against the bumper. So the benefit is lower blowback. The other effect the long stroke has is to reduce the firing rate to a maximum of 11 shots per second. This is a big benefit because you can not out shoot the hopper by short stroking. We have come to understand that all ball chops are caused by short stroking or ball bobble. Because the RT valve system can cycle SO fast the ball can't get into the barrel so it chops. Ball bobble causes the ball to hang up in the feed tube and same problem at lower firing rates.

So the poll below asks the following question:

For mechanical guns is 11 BPS a fast enough cycle rate?

[magman#1]

11 is perfect. Not to fast and not to slow.

[KamikazePenguin]

that sounds perfect for me. Would this just be a new bolt/powertube spacer? Would we have to pay or would it be similar to the long-nosed bolts that you can call up and have sent to you? I have a ReTro, so would that be part of the warranty? I'm VERY interested. Noone needs more than 11BPS.

[Tubby_Ninja]

It is plenty fast, but you will get LOTS of people who disagree. Probably not on this board, but in the market. The opinion will be "well, why should I pay that much for a marker that only cycles 11 BPS?" I think its wrong, and really only about 1% of people can actually fire 11 BPS, but a significant portion of folks will feel that way.

Just my .02,

Tubby_Ninja

"May all your Ninjas be Tubby!"

[Major Ho]

11 is perfect. Maaaybe even a little too fast. I cant believe people want faster and faster. But that is a different topic. Besides, Wasnt it an industry rule of thumb to keep it around/at 13bps? If no ball chops are almost guaranteed I think that says a lot. Jolly Good show ol' chap...
Dunno where that came from.

[2000Sabre]

11 BPS is more than fast enough. I know I can't get that rate of fire without some electronic help.

[Blake_sw]

Perfect. What CAN'T I do with 11 balls that I can with 16?

[Cha0tic]

from a business point of view, it is a bad idea. the customer wants the fastest gun he can get.

i would like to get no blowback and be limited to 11bps because the maximum bps i have ever shot is 9....

[Ni cD]

I like it, but people always want something fast...something really fast. 11 BPS is pretty dang fast, but I think people would complain about how its slower than other guns.

Player A: "I just got my brand new 'Mag! Isn't it cool!?"

Player B: "'Mags suck - they can only shoot 11 BPS. You have a stupid gun. I hate you."

Ya know, that kinda crap?

[Arand]

I would definitely be in favor of the slower cycle rate if it reduced ball chops.

[Nitroduck]

I have no problem with the 11bps bolt , but PLEASE keep the other bolt which can attain higher ROF.

As for ROF, i can do 12bps on my mag at the moment , but usually end up shortstroking/chopping.

I'm in the 1% percentile , i can get mag upto 12bps , and angel upto 15bps. Ingame , i find the 15BPS VERY VERY usefully ( all i have to do is wait for a guy to pop out , i can have 7 balls on the way to his mask and be back in my bunker before he even can react to seeing me)

[pot35tom]

i think if u can get it up to 50bps, that would be pretty good, like that huge gatling gun, which would shoot a whole hopper in 4 secconds, which is wack, lol....

pot35tom

[Gunga]

I've got a pretty fast trigger finger (or so I'm told at my field a lot) and I don't get anywhere near 11 bps. I do occasionally short stroke and chop, which is quite annoying. :) So having a non-choppin gun would be a "Good Thing" (TM).

[stimpy13]

11 balls sounds great. Anything that increases the reliablity of the gun is a good thing IMHO.

[thecavemankevin]

Heck, i rarely will do anything above 9 myself. So 11 is more than enough. I don't think we as paintballers should concentrate on high rates of fire, rather we should worry more about making our shots count and progressing the level of our skills.

[StevoC]

I don't think I can shoot 11 bps just yet, but I have been shot by an automatic marker shooting around 11+ bps....I guess the answer to that question depends on which side of the gun you're on...

[homer3dfx]

After watching the video witht the halo on the mag i was like i want that but thats way too fasst i think 6 per second is more then fast its just sick to fire 16bps its wrong and scares ppl away from playing full auto is lame super fast E guns are lame pump and semi are good back int eh day with the VM :)

[RiceRocket]

I voted for "11 bps is good with no chops..." for the sake of not breaking paint during critical moments. I don't know how fast I shoot and it would be hard to access for the simple reason - that I personally notice that I can shoot faster during game situations compared to dry firing or at a target. I think the general paintball public cannot shoot over 11 bps, so it sounds like a benefit if you can tell the consumer that you won't break piant. However, as many have posted above, people seem to be blinded by the "biggest, fastest, lightest" phenomenon that plagues the sport/industry. From a tournament player's standpoint, I'd prefer the bolt that greatly reduces chops but still can get a significant amount of paint out the barrel to keep up with all the e-guns.

I shot a teammate's LCD once at practice for kicks to see how fast I could shoot. After, what I thought was a pretty good string, the LCD showed I only shot 10 bps. Ideally, it would be nice to see or test how fast/well the longer bolt performs.

[a_malfunction]

I voted for the last option. It seems to me that most of the people here picked the 11bps limit. I think 11bps is just fine, but I dont think that most of the paintball community would agree with me. Tom, you have to remember that most of the AO memebers are pretty dang smart. They see the benefits of this. Most of the paintball community isnt so smart. If they see something that is limited to anything less than 13bps, I dont think they will buy it. They just dont realize how fast 11bps really is. I think its great, but as someone said earlier, its kinda an "ify" business decision.

[Dayspring]

I think that the 11 BPS is just fine. In all honesty, how much paint do we REALLY need to throw? (Wearing flame suit) The RT valve and the Warp feed go along way to improving rate of fire and consistency. Are they good systems? Yes. Are they the perfect solution? no. Sometimes an improvement in technology can unleash a gremlin somewhere else. Like Tom said about the RT valve fixing shootdown, but the little gremlin of ball chopping and out-shooting the hopper crept in. We fixed the out shooting part of it. Now it looks like Tom and his team are fixing the ball chopping part. Way to go guys!

[thei3ug]

here's my solution.

put out the prototype. instead of telling people it lowers the cycle rate, tell them it RAISES it AS WELL AS increases reliability.

Do you really think they'll argue? They'll never know the difference. Heck, they'll probably say it fires faster than their old angel.

:) nick's paintball enterprises: feeding on public misconceptions since 1981.

[DarkPhoenix]

Personally, I believe that it should be an option, unless you need to alter the body to accomodate the new bolt. In any case, I am sure whatever you decide will be for the best, though I would rather a ball detection system like the "Vision" eye or some other type of product would work best on the E-mag.

[cphilip]

I can live with 11 bps. Push the postives when you market it though.

[Twiek]

Originally posted by Ni cD
I like it, but people always want something fast...something really fast. 11 BPS is pretty dang fast, but I think people would complain about how its slower than other guns.

Player A: "I just got my brand new 'Mag! Isn't it cool!?"

Player B: "'Mags suck - they can only shoot 11 BPS. You have a stupid gun. I hate you."

Ya know, that kinda crap?

I have found that 90% of "Player B"'s are 'cocker owners (I'm certainly not biased, I now own a 'cocker), and 'cockers can't go over 9-10bps w/o some SERIOUS modifications (check out http://www.racegun.dk/, they had to put a micro-block on their electro to get it above 10bps). Just an observation.

I actually bought the 'cocker so I would shoot less paint, but I still think that we should push the limits of what CAN be accomplished in the high BPS spectrum of the sport. I am all in favor of BPS limits for tournament play, but I think it would be really nice to have a "unlimited" game every once in a while where we can just go crazy.....

My solution to short-stroking: Make the trigger pnumatic..... put a ram in the grip, and make the trigger a plain old 'cocker 4-way..... Fast & light trigger, and no shortstroking.

Just my $0.02

[TamaPlaya]

If it can shoot 11bps, and not chop a ball for SURE. Then that sounds great. I can pull about 9-10bps, if I ever shot more then that a couple times, maybe. 11bps IMO is perfect. Especially if you know it ain't gonna' chop any balls. But, I would try and get it up to 12, just for that "1%" of us that can pull it... I mean.. there going to be the ones looking for that "super fast gun" to keep up with there finger.

My $0.01/2

[ralicea]

11BPS is great in my opinion. I can only shoot 8-9BPS.

[polorboy]

11 balls per second is still extremely fast. Especialy they way that I play. I still chop the ball (sometimes, but bery rarely) when I shoot one or two shots because I pull the trigger to fast and don't do a full pull. There are a lot of people who will want the really fast bps though, but they can get the normal bolt system if they want. I think it is a great idea and know that I would get the upgrade as soon as I could. ;)

[M-a-s-sDriver]

For a frame of reference, an M-16 fires at a cyclic rate of 600 rounds per minute. That is 10 rounds a second. Fast enough for you?

[vdcmicromag2000]

Make it optional or people will go elsewhere for the speed.

[toymyster]

11bps may be fast enough for rec ball in the woods, but it's WAY too slow for anykind of speedball, much less in a tourney!!!!
P.S. Dig the new format!!!!

[Phil]

The question you should have asked is, "Would you like Air Gun Designs to pick how fast your gun cycles?" The answer should be NO. If your gun can shoot 26 bps then the software should not stop at 16bps or 11bps. It really doesnt matter to me if some of the AO members feel that 11bps is sufficient. I can choose for myself. I guess what im trying to say is dont be big brother. Let each consumer choose for his/herself.

Phil

[Arturus]

Toymyster -
It's WAY too slow?

I take it the people you play with, all can shoot on a regular basis, above 11 bps?

Must be in the lucky 1%...

And that's not even the point, even if they can -

WAY too slow? *grins* Meaning what, they can shoot up to 16.. 18.. 20 bps? They must chop left and right.

Phil -
AGD did ask the right question. Their question wasn't just, 'do you feel 11 bps' is fast enough. It included, would you be content with 11 bps, if it meant reducing ball breakage.

And it's great if you think it doesn't matter if some AO members think 11 bps is fast enough. This poll was done to get a general idea if there's a market niche out there, for a specific product in design. The poll was done for AGD, not you. :p

And keep in mind, through this poll it is in a way giving the option to us, the 'consumers', to share our views and a voice in future designs.

Tired... Time for bed.

*sorry mods... just one of those nights*

[vdcmicromag2000]

Well put, Phil Give me options - not limitations

I do believe your opinion was asked no matter who posed the question.

[st6212]

I think people need to realise if they haven't already, is that this prototype is for "MECHANICAL" markers. I very much doubt anyone is capable of pulling 11+ bps on a mechanical marker.

On a electro like the e-mag, possibly, but on a mechanical marker?? I don't think so.

Too bad this prototype requires a new bolt and valve, be nice if it was just a bolt change.

Actually, I'd like to see this new prototype hooked up in an electro config and see how it performs. How about it AGD? Maybe that will make people realise 11bps is fast enough in electro and mechanical mode.


So many things coming out its hard to decide what I want. And means more waiting.

[Arturus]

They are trying to give you options... *sighs*

I give up. :rolleyes:

[Ityl]

I don't chop with the valve I have now. But I bet the valve would be useful with most because most don't shoot that fast anyways. And people just getting the gun with be less likely to chop.

And I would bet money I've atleast hit 11 on my mag. I can shoot faster than a hyper frame limited to 10 bps.

Let the flames begin :) Oh well.

[Evil Bob]

Look up "tremolo" for those of you who have never played guitar, with a little time and practice, you'll be able to shoot faster then 10 BPS. Take a trip down to your local guitar shop and pick up a finger exerciser ($5-$10) and work on your "tremolo" skills, you'll be a spraying champ in no time. Its all about timing...

11 BPS is more then sufficient for hard core tourny play, considering that most pro tourny players can't shoot faster then 10 BPS without help, and all those nifty turbo boards and auto mods that allow them to shoot faster then they normally could are not allowed. If Tom can guarantee that a stock RT can shoot 11 BPS without breaking paint, I'm sold!

Evil Bob

[SIGSays]

that is more than perfect

[Bad Dave]

What this seems to be saying is that it is for gravity fed mechanical markers eg standard non warp mags and rts. This should be put into all automags cos it fixes what many think is the problem with them. It should also be available as an option for RTs cos some people will want to go reactive and hit 16bps or more with them.

Overall i think this is a good idea.

[Prezents]

11 Is fine, there still needs to be a standard set up to where all markers can be set at. A couple years ago this was going to happen, but now the markers just get faster and faster.
Prezents

[OldSchoolMag]

LOVE THE IDEA!!! I'm tired of the same old...

Player 1 - I can shoot 15+ BPS!!!

Player 2 - Do it.

Player 1's 'gun - Dananana CACK danana CACK dana CACK...


As usual, I have a couple questions, so bear with me --

A) What can you estimate the MSRP of such a product being?

B) Would you allow a bolt/valve exchange program, to reduce cost, and whatnot?


What's the point of shooting fast when you break balls that throw off your accuracy? I'd rather shoot slow and land 80% of my balls then shoot fast and light up a tree.

[XspyX]

How would this new bolt effect the feel of the trigger? From what I understand we have a longer cycling rate and minimal blowback. What what happens to the actual feel of the gun?

[Webmaster]

I think you will be hard pressed to find ANYONE who can really reach 11bps reliably with a mechanical marker. People simply cant move thier finger that fast! Its a rare few who truely have that gift. People werent out shooting revys unless they sweetspotted an RT or got an Electro.

If you can make your Mechanical guns more reliable - it will still be fast (I dont know of any cocker or spyder who can shoot that fast)and if its more reliable so that you wont chop, I say even better. Also - simply not advertising the reduced ROF - just the reduced ball chopping, will make you a hero in the consumers eyes. Most people cant rip 11bps on an RT anyway - so they wont know what they are missing!

You hear people boast of BPS speeds - but most are exagerated claims. Not always on purpose, but its hard to get an accurate count.

[BartManSr]

Eleven shots is fast enough for me. Hell, ten would be OK.
I hate chopping balls.

[z-zero]

As a person who has'nt owned a Mag yet I feel that I did not buy one over a autococker a few years ago was because of the rep for it chopping balls, and the blowback. Also the fact that I have always felt that I would have to buy a powerfeed, spending 70-100 more for a gun that might chop for no good reason led me to th cocker. If this change occurs in say a new level 8 Mag comes out with no chance of ball chops due to speed or short stroking, I would be willing to wait for for it. I'm interested in a Mag now, but I might wait as I feel this might come out on the new minimag? With this change people could spend less money for the standard feed and it would increase the market range of the Mag because people would'nt be so apprehensive. Besides tourneys are set at 13 balls per second, so whats 2 balls anyway espeacially if I don't have to spend lots of money on an electro, but can have close to the same speed, and more reliability. I think it would be a great thing, but the less informed public might not accept it well.

z-zero

[OldSchoolMag]

Bump for a good post!

[theraidenproject]

It sounds pretty good. I'm thinking of buying a mag pretty soon (need 2 save up more), so, when would mags start shipping w/ the new stuff, and if i buy a mag before they ship w/ the new bolt, could i just ship my mag to AGD and get them switched for free?

[OldSchoolMag]

That's the basically the thing I was asking too, because it would really help us current 'mag owners, and I see they're doing the valve exchange policy (or it was going last time I checked) so I figured it'd be a good program...

[Xzion]

11 is good... though frankly, I havnt ever broken a ball in my mag as of yet, and ive put several cases through my stock valve. and now I have an ReTro Valve, which I havnt chopped a ball with either, I personally think im going to stay with my ReTro and stock valve, as I dont seem to have any problems with them, but it would help with the rep of Mags being blenders, and perhaps urge more players into picking one up, especially the ones that couldnt learn the current mag trigger.

[Cro§§ƒire]

Yes I agree myself 11 is fast enough. Aslong no breaking thats cool :D

[FooTemps]

Hm... I'd put it at 12 just to get those rich newbie snobs to think the that the mag is "worthy of competing with an angel". I think 11 is great... I can barely get out 5 bps with the rental guns I have to use...

[Shaft]

ROF is like horsepower. Can never have enough even if you don't need it.

[mykroft]

11bps with low breaks, sure I'll buy that, no reason to buy a Shocker now. It'll sell, especially if you can run it LP, say sub 200 psi, then it'll be a direct replacement for the Shocker, which shoots 11.75bps with no breaks out of the box. It won't be a big seller, but it will sell, and sell steadily. Please use an RT reg on it, cause I won't buy one unless it feels the same as my RetroMag.

[booyah]

but on my zgrip mag i can shoot faster than 11bps...

hey krafty, would you agree with me here? you saw me outshoot that rev in just a short burst.

this is on a zgrip with a classic powerfeed mag.

i could do 12bps (timed) on a model 98 double trigger...

now, i am not saying this is an end all way to play, but it can be handy when you have a quarter second to get 3 balls in the air....


now i have a feeling i am going to get flamed for this, but 11 i think is a little slow, go for 12 or 13 and you'll make everyone happier


-Booyah

[Temo Vryce]

Guys 11 Bps is great. You don't need to shoot more that to hit your target. For those of you who think that faster is better let me ask you this.

1. Does it hurt when you are shot just once?


No? Take some padding off and try it again.

For most players out there the answer is yes hurts to be shot just once. Now I know that there are some of you that have been lit up with more than 7 or 8 shots in a second. That really hurts. Now sure it sounds cool to say that your marker can shoot at 20 bps and hey it looks really cool to see a solid line of paint between you and the target. But put yourself in the shoes of the player on the recieiveing end of that line of paint. Would you want to be that player? Chances are you don't and if you do, you might want to talk to someone about this problem. Now if you try and tell me that you think that you can control your rate so that you aren't shooting at the maximum ability of the marker, I'll tell you that you're full of it. Now before you flame me let me finish. I too said that I can control my finger, but I was wrong. I play a lot of speed ball and it's the norm to have a high ROF there but I also play a lot of Rec ball and a high ROF isn't as acceptable there because I do play with New players now and again. No newbie likes to get lit up in every game. Because of this I have taken to playing with my off hand during rec games unless I'm practicing for a tourny.

Also the league I play in, Golden Triangle Paintball League, has what they call an over shooting rule. It states that if a player is markered more than 9 times that the offending shooter is penialized (sp?).

I have had the honor o playing with a group a player who call them selves, Canadian Contigent (sp?). For these players, over shooting is more than 1 shot, because they play stock class.

Hey I'm all for a 11bps limit. Even 13 bps really reasonable. People have to realise that there is such a thing as over shooting. Some players will be a little more understanding when they lit up. I myself can understand if I get hit 5 or 6 times, but that's because I play speed ball. Now you really expect some newbie to be as understanding if you lit him up with 5 or 6 shots? I don't think it's fair to say you can.

Tom started the standard with the E-mag and the 13 Bps limit. It will be interesting see how long it takes the rest of the industry to follow suit.

Well I'm done and after reading this if you still wish to flame me go ahead. Just don't expect me to reply to you.

[Shingo]

11 bps is good enough for me. Heck, most people will never reach that speed manually. I'm new to 'mags and I'm still getting used to the trigger. You don't think about how to pull the trigger when your playing. Currently, I'm chopping at least once every 300 rounds!!! It's a real pain in the middle of a game and makes the rep of 'mags being blenders' that much worse. So I'm VERY interested in a new Valve and Bolt that can fix the short stroking/blowback issue.

AGD!!! If you need someone to test it, send it over to me and I'll run a case through the it. If this trigger finger of mine can make it through 2000 rounds of paint without a ball chop, you got yourself a mod that is a MUST for every 'mag user. :D

[Dubstar112]

I agree, as long as there is an option for those who want the mechanical ability to shoot faster than 11bps, you should keep the current system but allow for purchase of the new system through the factory or a store.

[booyah]

but i feel i should respond since i am one of those promoting rate of fire.

the only time i have ever overshot another player was when i came out the left side to see someone running to bunker me on the right...


otherwise, i only (unless putting paint on a bunker to keep its occupant behind it) put down about 3-4 shots a burst and wait.

rate of fire does not dictate irresponsibility... you can be responsible and fast...


-Booyah

[Temo Vryce]

Originally posted by booyah
but i feel i should respond since i am one of those promoting rate of fire.
the only time i have ever overshot another player was when i came out the left side to see someone running to bunker me on the right...
otherwise, i only (unless putting paint on a bunker to keep its occupant behind it) put down about 3-4 shots a burst and wait.
rate of fire does not dictate irresponsibility... you can be responsible and fast...
-Booyah

Ok thank you for giving me a polite response. It's nice to see this kind of respect.

Now on with my response. You state that you usually do a 3 or 4 rnd burst. Also you stated that you have only overshot someone on one occation. So on aerage you don't really need a marker with a higher bps rate than 11. Now I know it's great to be able to pop out fire off 4 shots in a 10th of a sec and get back down but do you really need your marker to be that fast?

Ok lets suggestest this. If it's possible market the 11bps limited mag for a cheaper price than that of an unlimited mag, or even at the same price but with a guareenty to chop less balls than a non limited mag.

*NOTICE*
For those of you who like to flame please read Booyah's post above. You will find that you can accomplish more by posting in this manner than you can by flaming someone.

Thanks again Booyah.

[Shingo]

Just wondering... will this new bolt and valve be able replace the old ones without any modifications to the body???

AGD!!! I'm still interested in being your guinea pig for this. If there is anyone that can make a "paint blender" out of a mag,.. it's me! :D

[booyah]

Now your talking.

theres a marketing campaign for ya AGD, supply "unlimited class" mags and a "gentle class" mags.... that would sell

and i do think that the ability to get 2-3 balls off in under a quarter of a second is VERY handy.... think if your 20 feet from someone but both being covered by back men and only have that .25 seconds to pop out. that extra ball can really make a difference.


for me, its not 13 bps but more like 3.25 balls per .25 seconds. i would rather that than 2.25 balls per second...



Originally posted by Temo Vryce


Ok thank you for giving me a polite response. It's nice to see this kind of respect.

Now on with my response. You state that you usually do a 3 or 4 rnd burst. Also you stated that you have only overshot someone on one occation. So on aerage you don't really need a marker with a higher bps rate than 11. Now I know it's great to be able to pop out fire off 4 shots in a 10th of a sec and get back down but do you really need your marker to be that fast?

Ok lets suggestest this. If it's possible market the 11bps limited mag for a cheaper price than that of an unlimited mag, or even at the same price but with a guareenty to chop less balls than a non limited mag.

*NOTICE*
For those of you who like to flame please read Booyah's post above. You will find that you can accomplish more by posting in this manner than you can by flaming someone.

Thanks again Booyah.

[toymyster]

I'm 100% with Phil on this one!!! I have shot faster that 11bps on my RetroMag, and with my E-mag, I often top 13bps!!! Don't tell me "you don't need faster than 11bps", You may not, but don't say I don't either!!! Let the indivifual choose!!! If you don't want to shoot faster than 9bps, then don't, you say I'm wasting paint, let me!!! You say you're tired of rate of fire bragging contests, don't get into them!!! Let me choose, don't choose for me!!!!

[Arturus]

:rolleyes: Not this again...


Originally posted by toymyster
I'm 100% with Phil on this one!!! I have shot faster that 11bps on my RetroMag, and with my E-mag, I often top 13bps!!! Don't tell me "you don't need faster than 11bps", You may not, but don't say I don't either!!! Let the indivifual choose!!! If you don't want to shoot faster than 9bps, then don't, you say I'm wasting paint, let me!!! You say you're tired of rate of fire bragging contests, don't get into them!!! Let me choose, don't choose for me!!!!

They're 'not' choosing for you. Read my earlier post.

[FooTemps]

I've got a suggestion...make a new mag that has the bolt and some other new options and parts to it. It would be nice for AGD to have another good mag in it's lineup...

[rpm07]

11 BPS is more than fast enough

[DarkPhoenix]

Though there is probably no way for me to squeeze the trigger that quickly, I prefer the option.

[HeerophantG]

:o :o :o :o
I think 11bps is fine actually, but i think the best is between 12-15bps i give that is the best speed (you can play for Paintball or Speed ball right away with that speed)
not too fast and not too slow
;)

[e21bgl]

11 BPS ....... its enough I think

[DRAGONSLAYER]

Yeah, the bps is perfect for my style! And to have no chop...chop...chop would definately be a bonus!! I like it.:cool:

[joeyjoe367]

Originally posted by Temo Vryce
Now sure it sounds cool to say that your marker can shoot at 20 bps and hey it looks really cool to see a solid line of paint between you and the target. But put yourself in the shoes of the player on the recieiveing end of that line of paint. Would you want to be that player? Chances are you don't and if you do, you might want to talk to someone about this problem.

I can see where you're comming from, but my attitude on this subject is, "Better him than me"

I'm all up for a 11bps cap, but the thing is a lot of other people aren't, and until it's made a standard, I wouldn't want to handicap myself.

Personally, I think a new "non-chopping" bolt, or whatever, would be good for the 'Mags reputation; which, as many have seen with the 'Mags suck' posts, could use some help. So, I voted for the #1 Option.

[Ityl]

if every gun stopped at 11 bps it'd be good, but they aren't.

[Ball Buster]

I guess the best question I can ask is..

WHere can i get this bolt?

:)Sign me up

[DarkPhoenix]

I believe that Tom mentioned that the new bolt will be incorporated with a new valve and gun designed around its use.

[CESF_Specter]

for most players that is

i found that i could shoot around 26 BPS with TURBO mode on a shocker 4x4 and without i could get around 10 to 11 on my stingray 2, yes thats it i just said stingray 2! dont bother flaming ive heard them all and it doesnt bother me! but i will be buying an emag with a warp soon. BTW my ray2 is not even close to stock, ive been a member of S.T.I.N.G. (http://www.stinggroup.addr.com) since 1998 when i first got my ray 2. the only probs i have is chopping balls. i need a new bolt, i didn't replace the steel detent in it and now my bolt has a huge groove with a blade on it so it occaisionally slits a ball at high rates of fire but anyways back to the main thing i think 11 BPS is good enough.

[FooTemps]

I've been saying...Any type of non rt mag should have this kind of bolt in it with vert feed. That would make a kickass paintball marker.

[joeyjoe367]

I've been thinking about this lately, and I thought that a 11bps cap wouldn't exactly be good for the reputation of the Automag.

It'd be ok, as long as it wasn't advertised as a ROF cap, but more as a "Reduced Ball Break Modification" :D

[PAINTBALLA01]

11 bps is fine anybody that shoots more shouldn't be playing paintball

(spray and prey)

[e21bgl]

11 BPS that's enough. The more faster than this , the more you gaonna spend much more money for paints. ;)

[Ityl]

I got it...11 bps is fine for a NON tourney gun, actually more than enough. But me and many others use regular mags in tournies and that would create a huge disadvantage. If AGD ever came out with a gun in the more entry level price range (selling under 200) it'd be fine. Plus most people chop paint because of short stroking, not out shooting the hopper with the blowback. Make a trigger that cannot be short stroked, there's an idea.

[Trunnion]

i see 11 as more than acceptable. if you really want to fire faster than that, then keep your original internals or buy something with electronics. i personally don't think i can rip any faster than 7 or maybe 8 for any appreciable amount of time. i play in the woods, and if you're caught in an ambush you want to lay as much fire down as you can. so far 7 has been more than acceptable toward that end. i have a friend with an intimidator, and he keeps his gun set to 10 bps, which is again more than adequate(trust me, i've been on the recieving end of that one)

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

well there is one thing i think all of you might be missing... if it willl slow down your max, wont it slow down every other string of fire rates? like youll shoot your 3 shot burst slower than youd shoot a 3 shot burst before! ok i do still want this bolt cause i dont like using so much paint anyway and something to slow me down might be good lol! but just think all your shots will be slower not just the one at 11 so your 1 could be like your 2 before it or something like that. well mabey im just stupid and all this makes no sense

[Vegeta]

This poll is pretty old, over a month now.. has AGD decided anything? or is it too big of an idea to mess up so yuor taking your time deciding.. or was the idea dropped?

[DiRTyBuNNy]

i was just wondering the same thing when this thread came to the top again..

[Panzerr]

Toymyster, what are you talking about? Loaders only feed a max of 12 BPS. Note, this is the MAXIMUM feed rate. This doesn't meen it will actually feed this fast consistantly. It may for a few seconds, but as soon as it slips-CHOP. 11 BPS not fast enough for speedball or a tounry?? Whatever.

[AGD]

We are still debating about this. We have solved the problem in the Emags by using an Anti Chop Eye but the mechanical guns could benefit. We just don't know yet, it's 2-1, we like to see 9-1 in favor.

AGD

[FooTemps]

I really want to change my vote... I'd rather keep it at maximum so I can reach my unlimited potential...

[Dubstar112]

I'm not sure that I understand the actual logic of this valve;

How would it eliminate chopping?

What if somone were to use a hyperframe on this, which is capped at 13 bps..

what would happen if 13bps is reached with the hyper?... would it sputter possibly chopping more paint?

would this new valve set up need to be used with a mechanical frame only?

[boggerman]

I would be more than happy with 11bps if it would virtually eliminte chops. Think about it, 6-7bps is all most people can achieve without an electronic gripframe anyhow. Remember the guy in the AGD video, he was fast on the trigger and only hit 6.5bps, yes the video is a little old, but finger technology has not advanced that much in the last decade:D . I would love to be able to leave the squeegie in my gearbag.

[n1mr0d]

I haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone thought about a delrin long nosed bolt?

that might be able to compensate for the heavier bolt.

[845]

Originally posted by Blake_sw
Perfect. What CAN'T I do with 11 balls that I can with 16?

Hit someone 5 more times in a second. You don't know but that 12th in the secondmight just be the lucky one that snags the top of his hopper as he is coming up to shoot. :D

[luke]

Can someone say level 10?
(Just a guess by the way)

[WARPED1]

Well considering no one can pull the trigger thay fast(without mechanica/electrical help[r/t,electro])11 bps is puuurrfffffffffffffeeeect.

[liigod]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Well considering no one can pull the trigger thay fast(without mechanica/electrical help[r/t,electro])11 bps is puuurrfffffffffffffeeeect.

No one? :rolleyes:

[G-Rexx]

Anything to end or severely limit ball chops. Anyone who can shoot better than 11bps is a legend in his own mind.

[Croix71]

I don't know anyone that can pull a trigger 11bps consistantly on a mechanical marker. If there are people who can it would probably be such a small number that it would matter. So an 11bps cap would be fine. :D

[liigod]

consistantly isnt the issue, if someone hits say 13 bps for 3 balls, then hey its still 13 bps.

[ShooterJM]

11 bps is fine. I average about 6bps in a game, strings around 9bps. But nothing over that.

From a marketing standpoint (if it's just a drop in replacement), I'd call it a tourny RBB (reduced ball bobble) bolt.

[FooTemps]

lol... this isn't lvl 10... can you say 20 bps no chops?

[Tyril]

11 is just perfect.

Actually, it is even faster then I have ever been able to do with my setup.... clocked in at 10 bps once, but that was after large doses of caffiene!


-Mike

[tomcat]

I do like to be able to shoot 10~11bps during the start of the game when I am trying to hit someone going to their primary. It is a big asset when someone is hauling butt across any open ground!
If you can give 11 bps to a mechnical marker and not chop paint then you are doing pretty darn well!

[Havoc_online]

I didn't vote, I think it should just be an option if it wouldn't be to hard to switch between both setups.

[PowerFedMag]

personally, I'd like to not be limited to 11bps. I find it very easy to shoot faster than that on a number of guns, my RT included. Its easy to discipline yerself from not shortstroking, just practice a bit. Its prolly just me tho, all my friends seem to think I shoot insanly fast. heh. SFL E-Mag here I come/

[Jonno06]

TK,im not sure if you answered this already,but what happens if we pull faster than 11bps....

i play back,and i shoot about 13 when im shooting the lanes,and about 9 just keeping someone in there bunker....

[845]

It should definately be an option. People will say only 11bps just because there are markers that claim higher speeds and therefore the ignorant ones will reason out that that gun must be better. :rolleyes:

[Santos]

11 BPS on a MECHANICAL mag would be great. I just stopped using my minimag because when I am shooting fast I end up short stroking the trigger and chop a ball.

Not chopping is more important than a couple balls per second. And if you want 13 bps you should be going with some electro anyhow.

I am pretty sure that most break are short stroke related.

DS

[Magluvr]

People aren't going to be happy with you slowing down your guns. They don't think about the practical reasons, they just think that AGD is retarded because the guns are being slowed down. The only way that you could possibly sell this type of gun is if it came with a 100% satisfaction guarantee that it would NEVER chop; even under the most brutal of conditions.

AGD, you say that some of the mag's popularity is wearing off and that you have to come up with some great ideas to get more people to buy your guns. This isn't going to happen if you slow down the gun.