Low pressure = Straighter shots?? hype..?

[tobz]

I'm pretty sure it's just some marketing hype/BS, but on akalmp website they claim lower pressure has flatter shots.

On a angel speed video, they also claim their new lower pressure to deliver flatter shots.

300fps is 300fps right? I hate hype, so I just wanted to make sure this is BS, just like I think it is.

Bah, low pressure, screw that :)

T.J.

[lord1234]

bs

[personman]

Lower pressure may lead to higher consistancy, which will lead to flatter shots, but that isnt always true. Mags have great consistancy. It depends on the regulator mostly, I think.

[*ArKfEaR*]

Originally posted by personman
Lower pressure may lead to higher consistancy, which will lead to flatter shots, but that isnt always true. Mags have great consistancy. It depends on the regulator mostly, I think.

Not necessarily; matrix.. shocker... very low pressure but the worst efficiency ever.

Controlled, Regulated, and Consistant low pressure = no fps fluctuation which means not as hard on the paintballs (because less pressure to cock the bolt) as well as consistant streams on top of each other.

[tobz]

Thanks, 'nuff said :)

T.J.

[personman]

FYI I said absolutely nothing about efficiency in my post :rolleyes:
I said basically what you said, in a wrap.

[Rope a Dope]

My Angel Speed always had an arc in it's shot, like my E-Mag, after reading around I heard you can make your Speed shoot like a Matrix. I convinced a buddy to try it first, we set his LPR from 75psi to 55psi, put on a big volumizer and set the dwell from 11ms to 16ms. Indeed it has a flatter shot... the ball goes straight out and then drops at the end. it doesn't shoot farther, just flatter.

As far as accuracy... the gun now has no kick, so I'm sure thats how you can say it's more accurate.

[LeatherPants]

hype.

But Matrix DO have good effieciency now. With the Evolve bolt kit you can get 1800-2000 off a 68/4500. Two of my friends run this bolt and they get those numbers.

[-=Squid=-]

You shouldnt ask a question like this on an automags forum, whether its hype or not... Even if the person has no clue, they will say that its hype just because mags arent low pressure...and you all know it.

[personman]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
You shouldnt ask a question like this on an automags forum, whether its hype or not... Even if the person has no clue, they will say that its hype just because mags arent low pressure...and you all know it.
Thats BS. Not one person has said anything like that. Get your head out of your taco(:p).
I think I misconcieved the first post. I guess flat shots and more consistant velocitys are two different things. I for one, have never noticed my gun shooting balls in an arc, or any other one for that matter. I'm pretty sure my gun shoots strait (given a good paint-barrel match)
I dont know, I dont really stare at the way paintballs fly, all I care is that they hit my target :rolleyes:

Squid, I'm assuming that post was aimed twords me, which is a stupid thing to post, because I only compared something with an automag.

I would say this is more of hype. I dont really understand how anything but efficiancy can benefit from a LP setup, or if its insanely low, less chopped balls, but then you start to loose ROF. I dunno.

[-=Squid=-]

I didnt even read what you said man.

[personman]

Heh.
I just wasted a post :p

You should read threads before posting ;)

[Ginjiroku]

I can't think of any way that lower pressure would have any noticable impact on how well your gun shoots, It's possible that it does but it's probably hype.

[MrWallen]

Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*


Not necessarily; matrix.. shocker... very low pressure but the worst efficiency ever.

Controlled, Regulated, and Consistant low pressure = no fps fluctuation which means not as hard on the paintballs (because less pressure to cock the bolt) as well as consistant streams on top of each other.


He said consitency, not efficiency. Two very different things.

Consistent=same, over and over. So a gun can have great consistency and crap efficiency. Don't think it can work the other way around though.

[Dayspring]

You'd be surprised to find out that the Mag's on ball pressure is 65psi. If that doesn't qualify as low pressure, I dunno what does. (Yes, it requires a 600psi input, still...)


Originally posted by -=Squid=-
You shouldnt ask a question like this on an automags forum, whether its hype or not... Even if the person has no clue, they will say that its hype just because mags arent low pressure...and you all know it.

[Chojin Man]

Dayspring do you know the on ball pressure of other "LP" markers? Is it usually about the same?

[Joni]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34429

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by personman
Heh.
I just wasted a post :p

You should read threads before posting ;) No I shouldnt... I read the question, and automatically knew everybody would just say hype, whether they had a clue or not.

[RRfireblade]

There's no such thing as a "Flat Tragectory" with out purposely spinning a paintball.Come on guys,you all should know that.

The only thing air pressure on a ball has to do with consistancy is whether or not it's exactly the same evey time,regardless of what ever pressure it happens to be.

Jay.

[GT]

I was at the field yesterday when this guy started running his gums about his angel that "lobs" balls. I was going to get into a freshmen phys. lessons but I thought I would save my breath for the next game.....

I really enjoy all the Jr. Scientists at the pb field, most have little more than a HS diploma, if that, and feel the need to "educate" the knoobs.

P.S. (sorry didn’t want to sound elitist with the education thing....)

[personman]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
No I shouldnt... I read the question, and automatically knew everybody would just say hype, whether they had a clue or not.
Actually, yes you should. You should look at other peoples views before you judge them. Not everyone said hype. You diddnt know everyone would just say hype, you made an assumption.

[tobz]

I apologize for starting a thread that spawned an argument. I will delete this, as the trajectory of the ball should not be influenced by what pressure the air is at that propells it. 300fps is 300fps, and no matter what combination of air pressure/volume is used, the trajectory of two of the same projectiles traveling the same speed will be the same.

[GT]

Originally posted by tobz
I apologize for starting a thread that spawned an argument.

Not your fault bud, please dont delete the thread.

jb

[tobz]

No problem, I won't :)

[cledford]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
You shouldnt ask a question like this on an automags forum, whether its hype or not... Even if the person has no clue, they will say that its hype just because mags arent low pressure...and you all know it.

Once again, someone who knows nothing is posting myth and hype that keeps this crap going on and on. Tom has posted MORE THEN ONCE that regardless of the pressure going into a marker, virtually all markers put about the same pressure behind the ball during firing. It is about 75psi if I remember.

-Calvin

[tobz]

Yeah, I didn't even mean to bring it up, I just saw some well known companies advertising it, and I would assume that could be some sort of false claims. But I really don't know enough about marketing laws to make a qualified statement. It just struck me as odd, even though I've seen many companies say incorrect things about their products, who actually enforces the rules to protect the public? Shouldn't that be removed? Also, if anyone needs links to what I am referring to, just let me know.

T.J.

[RRfireblade]

All companies make "Hyped" claims,it's how you sell product.Are you going to buy from anyone selling a product advertised as "About the same as everyone elses".

The only way to stop it is to call them on it with legal action.With paintball being prodomitly aimed at teenagers and younger,who of them would or could bring such a claim.Most adults aren't going to put up thier own cash for such a thing either,so your pretty much stuck until some major player decides there's enough to gain to do something about it.Right now,there isn't.

I don't like it either but what are you going to do but try and combate it with sense and logic,which doesn't always appeal to younger kids.

Oh well.....

Jay.

[Miscue]

Unless your LP marker can change the acceleration rate of gravity's pull, it is not possible to have a different trajectory at the same velocity and angle of attack.

LP and HP are what the marker mechanically operates at to turn the cranks. The psi behind the ball... is about about 45-100psi regardless of your marker. The mag happens to be on the low end of this spectrum.

-=Squid=-... make a serious effort to quit being an idiot and a continual nuissance.

[LittMag]

Originally posted by Miscue
Unless your LP marker can change the acceleration rate of gravity's pull, it is not possible to have a different trajectory at the same velocity and angle of attack.


Well... not unless you have something that puts a spin on the ball... like a flatline barrel, z-body for mag, etc.

That'll make a decent difference.

[tobz]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
There's no such thing as a "Flat Tragectory" with out purposely spinning a paintball.Come on guys,you all should know that.

The only thing air pressure on a ball has to do with consistancy is whether or not it's exactly the same evey time,regardless of what ever pressure it happens to be.

Jay.

He already beat you to it :) I don't need any more answers, I'm content. :D

[Miscue]

Originally posted by LittMag


Well... not unless you have something that puts a spin on the ball... like a flatline barrel, z-body for mag, etc.

That'll make a decent difference.

No duh! :rolleyes:

[Smoking Nun]

I think some of it has to do with kick and stability of firing platform.

I have noticed that mags have a considerable kick (not quite like a PMI III or similar), but still quite a kick. It kind of kicks the marker forward a bit when firing. Probably the whole blow forward action. So, the whole kick of the marker forward, tips the barrel a bit forward and may lead to the impression of the Mags shots arcing. I know that it SEEMS my mag's shots arc a bit when I shoot. They seem to have a top spin. Seem - don't know, seem.

Now, I know that certain barrels, bolts, and barrel to paint matches can put a spin on the ball and induce lift and drop. Z-mag, flatline, Underspin bolt, and maybe certain other barrels with big barrels and loose paint.

It is true that things such as kick, paint to barrel match, barrels, etc. can all combine to place spin on the ball or to give shots a changed trajectory (or seemingly changed trajectory).

It has nothing to do with pressure behind the ball. However other variables, why yes, most certainly.

I know my Shocker and Cocker seems to have flatter trajectories. They shoot lower pressure, so that must be it, right. No. I still stand by my theory - without some sort of special barrel or bolt or paint match - it is all about the marker kick and cycle - it tips the barrel up or down at the point of firing, the user compensates, and the ball doesn't go quite where aimed. So, it looks like it has spin or flies flatter.

Shocker has a sort of slow vertical rise
Mag has a different sort of kick
Cocker has very little kick
They all affect where the paintball goes - the kick that is.

Nun

[GT]

Originally posted by Smoking Nun

Shocker has a sort of slow vertical rise
Mag has a different sort of kick
Cocker has very little kick


ever take those guns apart? I am willing to bet that the mag, lvlx has the lightest bolt out of all 3. I think the shocker feels smoother because the gun weighs so much more....

[Smoking Nun]

It may not be just the weight of the bolt, but maybe the total force/inertia exerted by the cycling mechanism.

I have taken all 3 apart down to the very last part.

I just think they all rock, kick, and move differently. I think it moves the barrel and affects shot trajectory. Also, if a barrel is pitching down or up as a ball is leaving the barrel, it is possible for that barrel to impart a spin on a ball, especially if the ball is loose at all in the bore.

We know physics can't be broken - well usually, anyway. However, I think there are many other parts to the problem that affect trajectory, range, and accuracy that we really aren't looking at. The solutions might not be simple, but the answers as to why it is happening is probably right under out noses.

Saw a show the other day about 17th century naval warfare. They were field testing the English Wyvern naval cannon. supposed to have a flat trajectory out to a certain range and be accurate to this range, etc. Used doppler radar, sensors, cameras, etc. They found it had the originally reported flat trajectory. So, they wanted to test penetration power adn lined up a target at point blank range. The first 5 shots cleared teh top of the 20 foot high target at like 40 yards. They kept lowering the barrel, right? They finally figured out the shots were ricocheting off the ground and bouncing over the target. The reason, the cannon wasn't stable enough and the recoil was dropping the barrel as the shot left the gun. All their sensors and cameras couldn't pick this up. They finally got their hit through stabilization and by aiming a bit high.

Anyway - I think so much of this whole thing just has to do with kick and firing motions. I am absolutely sure it has some affect. Why do people think pumps are so accurate.

Nun

[Nomad]

Originally posted by gtrsi


ever take those guns apart? I am willing to bet that the mag, lvlx has the lightest bolt out of all 3. I think the shocker feels smoother because the gun weighs so much more....

That and that fact that the majority of a mags weight is concentrated behind the bolt, in the valve which is behind the grip frame.

With more conventional designs like a shocker or a matrix you have a lot more of the guns weight positioned in front of the grip frame.

[personman]

Heh. Have you ever fired an LX mag? There is no kick. There may be a very smallll miniscule amount of kick that only a 5 year old could feel, but its not enough to affect your shot, or the way you view the ball or whatever. Also if you have ever shot an emag at any decently fast speed, you would know that the kick on a mag forces the gun to ride up, not down like you are trying to explain.

[Smoking Nun]

Personman,

I have an LX mag. It has kick and not just a little, in my opnion.

I'm not sure if the barrel rises up or down with the way the mag rocks with the kick. I'm sure someone could do tests to prove the theory. I'm not mag bashing. I have one and it is one of my most reliable guns. I believe something about the kick and firing motion of the mag leads to something that arcs shots or leads to a perception that shots are arced. It is just a belief and theory based upon my observations. There are a lot better ways to figure this out beyond my obversation.

It would take a mound of equipment, cameras, radar, etc. to really find out what happens with trajectory and the different types of markers.

About the bolts on the 3 guns. Shocker is lightest, by far, especially the delrin version. LX bolt and a delrin cocker bolt are probably close. However, it is not just the bolt. There is all the weight and force of the entire firing mechanism. (bolts, hammers, ram shafts, backblocks, spring tension, air pressure for the mag, etc.). If anybody can disprove the theory, great. All I have is a gut feeling on this one and personal experiences with a bunch of different guns.

So, to answer the guy's original question, once again, it is not the pressure. But, other factors are involved.

Nun

[cledford]

Originally posted by Smoking Nun
It may not be just the weight of the bolt, but maybe the total force/inertia exerted by the cycling mechanism.


Do you know how dumb this statement is? Force(to move the reciprocating mass)/inertia(of bolt at rest) is DIRECTLY related to the WEIGHT of the mass to be moved. Geez, they teach that in 6th grade science.

I don't know how much the reciprocating mass in the shocker weighs (guess I could tear mine apart and weigh it all), but is damn sure more than the LX bolt. The cocker, Impy, Timmy, Viking, Excal, and Angel all have more to MANY times more the reciprocating the mass of the LX bolt. (Don't just weigh the ultralight delrin bolt, but the ram, hammer, bolt pins, back blocks, and figure additional energy required to knock open the hammer valve) Your statement has no merit. You are not even making educated guesses, but just "making up" explanations to validate your feelings.

Sorry to pick on you, it's nothing personal. It's just that these myths have been propagated long enough. Junk science has never cut it here on AO and I'm going out of my way to point it out this time. There may be many reasons why one marker *appears* to shoot a different trajectory then another, but using inaccurate reasoning to describe why is a huge problem.

FWIW, my personal guess as to an explanation for all of this is that it is simple an optical illusion. Shockers are VERY tall markers and it is quite easy to sight down the side and even with a lot of vertical movement still have a similar looking sight picture/frame of reference. Mags are the most compact marker there is, any vertical movement is going to be noticed more. Everything else falls somewhere in-between.

-Calvin

[zaqwert6]

Originally posted by Smoking Nun


It would take a mound of equipment, cameras, radar, etc. to really find out what happens with trajectory and the different types of markers.

If anybody can disprove the theory, great.


Sigh.....

I'm amazed at how preconceived notions and pure folklore can continue to be so prevalent in this sport.

Here are some basic facts,

The gun can have no effect on the flight of the paintball after it leaves the barrel.

The Paintball is not in the barrel long enough to allow the minute amount of movement that is made primarily after the shot,to effect spin on the ball.This is not jai alai,look at the amount of spin needed in a Flatline or Z body just to have a noticable effect on tragectory.

"If" a forward kick were happening as your "guts" were telling you,and enough so to impart spin on the ball,it would be back spin not top spin and only enhance range.

"If" your properly matching your barrel with the size of your paint,you would negate any possible spin you "think" may be imparted during the miilisecond that the ball is in the barrel.There's one easy test for you to try.

Here's a simple test you can try.Simply set up a target(at least a decent distance),pull a string across the field at around the midway between you and the target.Chrono and fire 2 test guns from the same height off the ground,under the string and see if you can hit the target.Any difference in range will become easily apparent.You can also set up a ring such as a car tire at a distance from you,shoot through the tire aiming at a target in the distance and see the same results.

Here's one last fact.EVERY gun has kick.I know people say this one and that one doesn't,but EVERY gun has kick.If there was no moving parts in a paintgun,the force of a ball leaving the barrel at 300fps will create a kick.The biggest difference I see between guns is when and how much the added movement of the cycling parts contribute to that kick.This can be effected by many factors besides bolt weight.

What that kick does do is effect the overall point of aim.I think one reason Cockers developed their rep for long range is simply that there is no cycling of any moving parts during the first shot,that coupled with the fact that much of the weight of the gun hangs out in front,gives a very predictable point of aim.Unlike most other guns that cycle with different timing in relation to firing of the ball which has an overall effect on thier point of aim.That's why when you grab someone elses gun after shooting yours,your "learned" point of aim gives you a false assumption on where to shoot and possibly an impression that one shoots farther than another.

Anyway,that's my gut feeling.;)

Jay.

[cledford]

Originally posted by zaqwert6
Cockers developed their rep for long range is simply that there is no cycling of any moving parts during the first shot,that coupled with the fact that much of the weight of the gun hangs out in front,gives a very predictable point of aim.

Great suggestion. kick, aka recoil, is mitigated on firearms by moving mass as far forward as possible. It is not that the recoil affects any shot, but increases recovery time to require sight picture in between successive shots. On my "bowling pin" gun which requires very rapid shooting I minimize the time required to require sight picture by making the front of the pistol heavier with a tungsten guide rod and guide rod plug. This makes a noticeable difference. The cocker does have a lot of weight out front in a similar fashion. Think of the difference between it (cocker) and mag from the trigger guard forward. The mag has some rail and body, a grip, along with barrel and that is it. The cocker has a hunk of aluminum in the ASA adapter, another in the front block, the rest of the body, the reg, the lpr, the 3 way (or noid) the ram, front block screw, the barrel, the valve, and part of the cocking rod. Furthermore, you have the hammer slamming forward with it's own inertia, while adding not only adding it's it's weight forward on the gun - it is also in effect acting as a counter balancer to the recoil from the ball be fired. (Although the mag bolt does this as well.)

Cool point.

-Calvin

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by cledford


Cool point.

-Calvin

Oop. Sorry,that was me.Guess my brother was on the computer again.:D

But thanks.;) I shoot as well and have often wondered why no one has made a barrel with all the ports on the top to act as a muzzle break.I'd be curious to see if there's enough gas to have any effect on barrel position during and after the shot.

Might be time to break out the drill press.

Jay.

[GT]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


Jay.

jay,
I think that you will find after the ball has left the control bore air will escape through the easiets route, i.e. the first whole it comes to.

Also keep in mind that the pressure beind the ball dramatically decreases as it moves down the barrel. I would even go so far to say that once the ball is moving the air left in the barrel has little to do with the balls flight path

[RRfireblade]

Yeah that could be so.Perhaps a short barrel with a tight grouping of ports.Either way just a crazy idea.:D

[845]

When you shoot intimidators and matrices and then shoot an X-mag there is definately kick.

[cledford]

Originally posted by 845
When you shoot intimidators and matrices and then shoot an X-mag there is definately kick.

Maybe in Bizzaro world...

-Calvin

[Smoking Nun]

Ok, I am feeling a bit attacked.

If you all look back at my posts, you will see you are making a number of assumptions about things I never said.

To set a few things straight...


zaqwert6 said

"The gun can have no effect on the flight of the paintball after it leaves the barrel."

Good point. I never said anything to the contrary. So, I'm not sure why you felt the need to point this obvious fact out. Your point has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

"The Paintball is not in the barrel long enough to allow the minute amount of movement that is made primarily after the shot,to effect spin on the ball.This is not jai alai,look at the amount of spin needed in a Flatline or Z body just to have a noticable effect on tragectory."

An interesting idea. However, do you have any proof of this. I don't mean theorizing. I mean proof. All I have is a theory. If you can prove it wrong go ahead. Sounds like all you have is a best guess.

"If" a forward kick were happening as your "guts" were telling you,and enough so to impart spin on the ball,it would be back spin not top spin and only enhance range.

I originally said kick forward. Then said, I am not really sure which way it kicks in my later post, as I have not paid close enough attention. Also, my perception of kick may be skewed by how I am naturally compensating for the kick. Please read more carefully before responding.

"If" your properly matching your barrel with the size of your paint,you would negate any possible spin you "think" may be imparted during the miilisecond that the ball is in the barrel.There's one easy test for you to try.

Good point. An obvious point, but a good one. I never stated matched paint wouldn't have this affect. I just implied that maybe loose paint leaving a barrel under certain conditions might have some spin that may affect trajectory. Again, maybe reading more closely before feeling the need to attack my post on a lack of merit would be a good idea.
:)

cledford said
"Do you know how dumb this statement is? Force(to move the reciprocating mass)/inertia(of bolt at rest) is DIRECTLY related to the WEIGHT of the mass to be moved. Geez, they teach that in 6th grade science."

Wow, pretty mature. Just put me down, call my post dumb, and infer a low grade of intelligence on my part. Pretty big cahones for posting behind the shrouded veil of the Internet. However, if you read back through all the posts you will see that this was a response directly back to another poster. However, it seems clear you didn't read the posts entirely and responded out of emotion. I was simply pointing out that the kick of the gun was related to more than just the bolt weight. Personman stated that the LX bolt was lighter than others and thus implied there would be less kick. So, my point, while perhaps obvious to you, was apparently not obvious to all. Way to encourage open and spirited debate there. Keep up the great attitude and have a nice day
:)

Cledford again...
"Your statement has no merit. You are not even making educated guesses, but just "making up" explanations to validate your feelings"

Wow, another intelligent response - maybe not so much. My statement has plenty of merit. Just stating the obvious, as it appeared that someone misinterpreted what I had already written.

So my information had no merit. However, you then go on to explain and explore some very similar ideas in later posts. Pretty much saying a lot of what I already said about the whole platform and mechanism affecting kick and gun movement. What you are doing is elaborating on information already presented and exploring some slightly alternative theories, which are related to my ideas. Your ideas are similar and my ideas have no merit. Interesting.

Here's what you wrote

"I don't know how much the reciprocating mass in the shocker weighs (guess I could tear mine apart and weigh it all), but is damn sure more than the LX bolt. The cocker, Impy, Timmy, Viking, Excal, and Angel all have more to MANY times more the reciprocating the mass of the LX bolt. (Don't just weigh the ultralight delrin bolt, but the ram, hammer, bolt pins, back blocks, and figure additional energy required to knock open the hammer valve) Your statement has no merit. You are not even making educated guesses, but just "making up" explanations to validate your feelings."

Read back through what I wrote, carefully. You will see that I agree that the kick has to do with many factors. It seems you are responding emotionally, wanting very much to prove the combined affect of kick in the mag is less. Yet, I see no proof. If you are gonna just guess and not have facts, maybe putting down other people's theories with those guesses isn't the best idea. Have a nice day. :)


All of the points about recoil and firearms are interesting. However, does anyone have any proof about how this affects paintball guns? Oh, no you say. All you have are ideas and hunches. Thories. Kind of like what I am talking about. That's about what I thought. So you want to put me down for presenting some ideas and theories about which I have no proof and just want to put out there for discussion. Then, you feel it appropriate to respond with theories with no proof yourselves. Please gentlemen - how about not responding with emotion and giving some proof to your claims or at least be polite about disagreeing. I thought that is what AO was all about. Seriously.

So, if anyone has any proof - great. I neither have the time nor money to test this theory out. In the meantime, there is no less relevance to my idea about kick affecting which way the ball travels and its trajectory than to any other of your unproven ideas.

Let's keep the hypocrisy, bleeding deaconism, name-calling, and emotionally-driven responses to protect your love for the mag (don't worry, I like my mag too) to a bare minimum.

Nun

[cledford]

Originally posted by Smoking Nun
[B]I was simply pointing out that the kick of the gun was related to more than just the bolt weight. Personman stated that the LX bolt was lighter than others and thus implied there would be less kick. So, my point, while perhaps obvious to you, was apparently not obvious to all. Way to encourage open and spirited debate there. Keep up the great attitude and have a nice day
:)
B]

As I understood your statement "It may not be just the weight of the bolt, but maybe the total force/inertia exerted by the cycling mechanism." you seem to offer an illogical assertion. Please explain to me how something with less mass i.e. the LX superbolt (the only moving part of an automag) can produce MORE "kick" the then movement of the reciprocating mass in more (i.e Timmy, ram, bolt, bolt pin) to much more (i.e cocker with bolt, block, rod, hammer) complex systems when such a statement defies basic principals of physics?

Generally speaking most paintguns weigh about the same within small degrees of variance. Therefore they all will (within a rnage) experience a similar degree of "offset" from the aimed firing position during the launch of a paintball. Since the paintball is at rest and wants to stay that way (Newton's first law), and is then propelled violently out the barrel the marker causing force to be transferred into the marker, in the rearward direction (Newton's third law), I first submit that generally all paintgun experience a similar degree of recoil when shooting a 3gram paintball at 300fps. The theory about more mass out front offsetting the result of the applications of Newton's laws during the launch of the ball is interesting but let's assume for a moment that the impact is minimal. The only other movement producing event occurring at the same time during the shooting of a marker is the cycling of the "action" (the functioning of the collective group of parts that make the gun work) So if I understand you correctly you are saying that the a marker such as the autococker with more reciprocating mass (which is going to invoke Newton's laws) can somehow produce less "felt" or perceived "kick" then just the little 'ol superbolt? I don't think so.

-Calvin

[Smoking Nun]

Calvin,

Again, all of your points are good. However, you are making assumptions about my post that are simply not there.

I am not saying the LX bolt on a mag and the combined forces exerted in its firing cycle cause more kick than a cocker and its cycle. I never said that.

I think that something about the firing motion of the Mag, including the kick, leads to either a more arced trajectory or the perception of a more arced trajectory than some other markers I have fired. I think that the way other guns cycle, fire, and kick (including the exerted force of their firing mechanisms) leads to the perception or perhaps fact that the shots have a flatter trajectory. I'm not saying either can shoot a ball farther when launched at the same velocity, etc. I am simply stating that the trajectory seems different.

I don't know if it has to do with the force of the kick, the vector of force of the kick, or how the marker is held (tightly, loosely, etc). I just am theorizing that the kick has an affect on the trajectory. I would love for someone to prove me wrong. If it can be proven wrong, then we will know that it is all perception and perhaps even an optical illusion. If it is proven right, then hey, there may be a solution to that issue.

Nun