Thresholds of Human Action Potentals and Debouce Times

[Butterfingers]

Alot of time has been spent these days arguing how fast is too fast and what constitutes cheating in electronicly controlled paintball markers...

Many companies nowadays try to pass electrical noise off as genuine shots to the point that one pull does not equal one shot anymore.

There are two factors that determine the recovery time for a nerve cell to send an impulse to a muscle such as your finger. These two factors are called absolute and relative refactory periods. Eventhough nerve pulses can be very fast around 2/10 ths of a millisecond. The recovery between nerve impuses can be much longer.

Nerve cells act like mini capacitors sodium potassium pumps pump posively charged ions to one side of a membrane as a negative charge accumulates on the opposite side.

When a nerve fires its action potential it is similar to discharging a capacitor. Its charge gets released and induces other nerves to fire or a muscle to contract.

A refractory period can be compared to the charging time of a capacitor.

As mentioned before there are 2 types of refactory period that contribute to this "refactory period" or "charging time" of a nerve cell.

These are:

Absolute refractory period: This is due to the inactivation of all Sodium Channels. Your nerve ABSOUTELY CANNOT accept another impulse. Meaning that during this period you can jolt your nerve with infinity voltage and it will fail to fire. This has been determined to be about 2ms.

Relative Refactory period: This is the time that it takes for the nerve cell to recover to the point that it will fire a signal strong enough (a threshold signal) to induce a movement or action. Before this period of time Sodium Channels may be active BUT the cell has not accumulated enough charge to fire an effective action potential. This period is around 5 ms.

So there we have it 7ms for a "cycle" of the nervous system. JUST FOR THE IMPULSE! If you add the time it takes for the muscles to actually move the finger it is likely to be longer.

Now thoughts on debounce times... many seem to claim that having a debouce of 1 or 2 ms allows the computer to pick up shots "missed" when your finger twitches. Its has been shown here that a finger cant twitch that fast!

Therefore if you shoot faster with a debounce of 1ms as compared to 7ms its not one shot per pull. The gun is doing the work for you. You are either picking up electrical noise or a "state of the art" program is adding shots here and there.

Food for thought!

This should be retitled how cheater boards work and get away with it!

[Miscue]

For one finger... but what about with two fingers or raking? What if we have hyper-tensile hummingbird tendons, eh? :p

[Butterfingers]

Thats pretty much for any impulse that needs to be processed. In order to coordiate you 2 fingers in a way that produces an effective action many more than one consecutive and parallel impulses need to be fired extending the time.

It may be easier to fire fast with 2 fingers but physyologically the fribulation (uncontrolled contraction) of one muscle is faster than the coordiation of 2.

A hummingbird flaps its wings 75 beats per second a nerve impulse cycle is still faster at the theoretical limit at around 143 impulses per second.

[NJPaint]

Just to add to your post, muscles are much slower than nerve impulses.

Even if yout double your speed by walking, you fingers have a finite speed that they can recover and pull again at.

[Butterfingers]

Absolutely. The actual time for the desired action is MUCH MUCH longer. A way to measure it is to induce a finger spasm or fribulation and measure the rate. This is synonymous to free cycling and measures the actual time for all the processes together. The nerve impuse is just one peice of the puzzle.

Debouce setting should be called "rate adjustment for how much work the board does for me!"

[MrWallen]

I can see it now, a new product that you attach to your hand. It sends electrical pulses into your two fingers, causing them to spasm and "pull" the trigger.:rolleyes:

[hitech]

Originally posted by MrWallen
I can see it now, a new product that you attach to your hand. It sends electrical pulses into your two fingers, causing them to spasm and "pull" the trigger.:rolleyes: I'm surprised no one has trid this. Then again, maybe they have... ;)

[rx2]

Reminds me of my days back in physiology lab, twitching frog gastrocnemius muscles to summation and tetanus on the old smoke-drum kymograph. What a wretched apparatus.

Even an external apparatus sending impulses to your muscles will fail to generate twitches beyond a certain point, at which the muscle cannot get enough ATP to the fibers to break the bonds that cause contraction. When this happens, the muscle begins to cramp, and tetanizes. I have been trying to find reliable data on the threshold of summation for fast-twitch muscles in the human finger in order to caclulate a theoretical max at which one could pull a trigger.

But, I should add researchers have recently gotten a primate, in the lab, to control a mechanical arm directly with its brain, via electrodes connected to it. Imagine the day when you may interface your marker to your own neural network and fire off rounds simply by thinking about pulling the trigger. It would also shorten (VERY slightly)the time needed to snap-shoot, or the delay between the thought of pulling the trigger and the actual event, as electrons are conducted through wires at a faster velocity than impulses are conducted through even the myelinated neurons.

[AGD]

God I love the smart guys on AO!!!

Thanks Butters!!!!!

AGD

[RRfireblade]

Sorry Butters,my fingers are still faster than that.Just ask any rush hour driver that's been in front of me.



Jay.

[BarryTolar]

I will probably take flak from this

But

I call shenanigans on this

Based off the assumption(and yes I do know what assuming makes out of u and me) you can’t tell me what MY reaction time is.

Making blanket assumptions about the speed of Everyone’s refactory period is false.

If everyone is the same why do pacemakers have to be set and so forth to match the person they are going into ?

Never mind the muscle speed issue.

Finding “reliable data on the threshold of summation for fast-twitch muscles in the human finger” isn’t going to happen just for the simple fact that not everyone’s muscles HAVE the same speed so the assumption that one value can represent the whole population is false.

If I’m wrong show me some facts that an individual’s personal conditioning/fitness have NO role on muscle speed or nerve speed.

Anyway just my thoughts

Barry

[Mag Master 04]

wow, i am really impressed! (NOT THAT I COUNT) i really found this thread interesteing and it IS food for thought. i just wish i understand fully what you all are talking about...i mean i get the basic concept of this but i still have a lack of knowlege here. see public schools dont teach anything like this, i guess i will have to wait till collage next year to learn things like this. all in all great post, i like to read things like this, keeps me interested in the whole concept of the ROF debate and cheater boards:D

[ShooterJM]

Ok I'll go through and see if I can find out any real data.

There was some experiment done in the 60's or 70's that figured out the average human reaction time. I think it was measured to be (from eyes to finger movement) .16 seconds.

But you should be able to figure it out. An estimate anyway. Have someone hold a yardstick or ruler above your hands (your hands at zero). Have them drop it (with no warning) and mark where your hands grab. Do it about a dozen times. That should give you a decent sample. Granted with walking it'll be quicker, but I don't know if it's enough.

Keep in mind during stress and complex situtations your reaction time actually increases, I THINK by 33% for a guy and 36% for a girl. Like I said, I'll see if I can find the report.

EDIT: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~issues/spring02/brainexercise.html

This says reaction time can be maintained but doesn't say improved with exercise.

[Butterfingers]

Granted you cannot test every human being but modern science has found so far that this is the average right in the middle of the bell shaped curve.

There may be some faster or some slower but not my much... On top of that you still need to factor in the time for the muscle to actually contract.

This blanket statement as you call it covers 99.7 percent of the population but as with everything probably states that you cannot be 100 percent certain.

To those 0.3 percent I apologize :)

Although I cannot tell you what your reaction time with 100 percent accuracy is I can probably estimate your "refactory Period" to a relative degree of accuracy to be around 7 MS.

Reaction time as you speak of is not what im talking about, is diffrent and concerns may other processes and vary greatly. However your reaction time requires the firing of at least more than one action potential so I can say with confidence that it is MORE THAN 7ms.

Pacemakers are set diffrently to match the rate of stimulation necessary to circulate blood in the body. Smalller heart or bigger body you need to pump more... The reason why pacemakers are set diffrently has little to do with refactory periods.

Since refactory periods have to do with sodium and potassium gated channels which are gentically similar almost identical in the species it would be safe to say that the "blanket statement" is valid.

Saying this "blanket statement" is incorrect is saying that physics is incorrect because we havent tested every object in the world... or fired every peice of matter out of a cannon to test its projectile properties.

[MrWallen]

EDIT: Gah, butters posted at the same time as me, this is directed at Jester.

But that's reaction time, like say if you saw an opponent at the last second and needed to try to shoot them. With the trigger pull you already know when and what is going to happen.

Edit: I'm also suprised that no one has come up with a handheld trigger pulling device, which would be able to pull the trigger faster than fingers, which would, of course, be unrestricted by nerves speed and instead restricted by electronics.

Barry: You have some good points, but Butters' data is only an example, or "Food for thought" as he put it.

[AcemanPB]

Originally posted by Butterfingers


Therefore if you shoot faster with a debounce of 1ms as compared to 7ms its not one shot per pull. The gun is doing the work for you. You are either picking up electrical noise or a "state of the art" program is adding shots here and there.

Food for thought!



Excelent post, I have always thought about this but could never have summed it up and explained like you did. This should be posted on more message boards. People need to read this.

What do you think is the best way to solve this problem? A BPS cap or maybe a debouce cap? Either way none of this will happen unless some of the industry heavy weights take some initiatve. This seems unlikely though, I mean look how many guns Bob Long sold, in a good part thanks to the WAS boards. I know all my friends bought timmies for the "speed." (we all know nearly all electro's can now cycle much faster than we could ever pull the trigger!!)

[BarryTolar]

I agree it’s a snack for thought.

We’re assuming adrenaline has no effect on “sodium and potassium gated channels” whatsoever? Or has this been proven? I am asking because I’m curious it’s not intended as a facetious statement.

For some reason I have some indigestion over 99.7% of the population being the same on anything as well but that’s just me.

You can’t measure me and I can’t measure you etc. Unless you have a very VERY large sampling of the population with a WIDE assortment of types of people(fat,skinny,lazy,etc),races,genders etc. I’m always going to have indigestion over that number but again that’s just me.

I know for certain that I’m able to pull a trigger faster in a game that I EVER have been able to out of a game. I’m not offering that as anything but an observation.

Barry

[Butterfingers]

Adrenaline effects the body though diffrent mechanisms than refactory periods.

What im talking about is just about nerve impuses how fast it takes the actual signal to recover. 7ms this is 7/1000ths of a second.

I think the issue is that you see diffrences in the abilility of people to twitch this is valid. I never said all people are the same.

Im talking about the physycal limits of your nerves.

For example Say brian can twitch his finger voulentarily 50 times a second and Jason can twitch at 20 times a second. Brian is faster obviously... he can coordinate movements more efficently.

However if it were the case that both of them could increase thier rate of twitching through some SuperDrug the fastest thier bodies can physycally communicate these twitches is 143 twitches per second. Or 7ms between twitches.

Say you pull the trigger 15 times per second off the feild and 20 on the feild. 20bps is 50ms between twitches. This is nowhere NEAR the 7ms limit. People can be slower or faster but not faster than the limit.

Adrenaline and other neurological stimulants dialate blood vessels and allow you to coordiate movements at greater rates.

In conditons of "adreniline rush" Nerves are firing at faster rates but no faster than the refractory period limit. Under stimulants you are able to coordinate motions more effectively and fire impulses FASTER THAN NORMAL but not faster than the limit of the nerve 7ms. Thus you are faster but you are still nowhere near the limit of the nerve. Effectively more action potentials are being fired but these action potentials have a limit about 7ms.

So even if you body was 100 percent efficent and you had supermental capabilities... Im saying that your wiring can only handle 7ms impulses.

understand?

[rx2]

With other organisms that have been tested, there is a very small window within which a vast majority of samples tested would fall, in regards to muscle recovery times before summation and tetanization. As Butterfingers stated, it is a bell-shaped curve. Unfortunately, the best way to test is also not very feasible with humans. In lab animals, you pith the organism, and immediately harvest the muscle to be tested, as well as the primary nerve interfaced with that muscle (sciatic, radial, etc.). You then attach either end of a muscle to a device that records the movement. Whilst making sure to bathe the muscle an adequate amount of Ringer's solution, which keeps it nice and fresh, you apply electrical stimulus to the nerve, which then causes the muscle to contract. This device is computer controlled, and you can adjust all facets of the electrical stimulus, including duration, voltage, and cycle.

This, I think, would be very difficult with humans. This, however, does not mean that an average figure does not exits, nor does it mean that there does not exist a limit beyond which no human passes. It still comes down to basic biological processes, which are based upon chemical reactions, whose rates are definately finite.

Also, I don't remember specifically back to Endocrinology, but I don't think that Adrenaline has a direct effect on the ion gates, per se. What it does do is it acts as a vasoconstrictor, affects the sympathetic nervous system such that pulse and respiration increase, pulls blood to the muscles, and it facilitates ATP production. This is in part because of the increased blood flow, and thus oxygenation, and also because it initiates the adenylatcyclase cascade (or cAMP cascade). This activating cascade effects the mobilization of glycogene (liver) and triacylglycerines (fat tissue). The resulting rise in blood sugar better enables the fermentation of glucose in the muscles (anaerobic respiration).

In any case, there is a limit, but finding it is difficult, at best. And, yes, adrenaline will affect these figures.

[Miscue]

I understand how this is the case for one finger, but I still don't see how this applies to two fingers... timed very close together.

Also, move your arm to the left and then to the right. Keep track of when you wanted to go right. It is still going left at this point.

Now with a finger, you could time it such that... you tell your finger to start going the other direction before you've even hit the trigger. However, momentum still makes the finger hit the trigger and your finger releases... having sent the nerve pulse before hitting the trigger. Then this lag time doesn't appear. So, you do this w/o response lag... and then the second finger comes in for the second shot.

I'm not saying this is the case, I don't know. But something to consider.

[Butterfingers]

These are JUST nerve impuses...im not even considering the time it takes for the muscle to move.

Even if it is given that your finger can move at infinity meters per second. You can only fire impulses to tell your finger to change positions every 7 ms.

The response will not be faster just staggered.

[Miscue]

But do you see what I mean about the nerve has been signaled, and your muscles are moving away from the trigger... before hitting the trigger? Momentum carries it into the trigger, and release is very quick because the muscles were preemptively moving in that direction.

[Butterfingers]

I am having a difficult time understanding where you are going with this.

I need visual aids! :)

The image im getting is of a spring attatched to a recipricating piston.

At the end of its stroke the piston attached to the spring is going forward but the connecting rod is going backwards.

the spring snaps the piston back near the end of its stroke...

Now if the rate of reciprocation is once every 7ms the piston will also reciprocate every 7ms just off phase from the connecting rod.

[Ginjiroku]

a impulse(not the smart parts marker) travels at about 340 feet per second(it might be 320 I'm not sure but it is in that range).

[Butterfingers]

yep mylenated axons conduct signals at around 200 mph or around 300 ft/s

edit: ft/sec

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
I am having a difficult time understanding where you are going with this.

I need visual aids! :)

The image im getting is of a spring attatched to a recipricating piston.

At the end of its stroke the piston attached to the spring is going forward but the connecting rod is going backwards.

the spring snaps the piston back near the end of its stroke...

Now if the rate of reciprocation is once every 7ms the piston will also reciprocate every 7ms just off phase from the connecting rod.

Urm, think of how you smack someone with a towel... gym locker room style. You're pulling back before it hits... and that's how you get the smack.

[Butterfingers]

if you move your arm back and forth once every second how many smacks will you get per second...

1 or 1 second per smack.

Now if you are only physycally capable of moving your arm 143 times per second you will only get 143 smacks per second. or 7ms between smacks. Only your smacks will be off phase from your movement.

[Miscue]

But that is only if you have one arm... or one finger. You have the second finger to get in there right after the first. You cannot sustain this, of course. I'm talking a 2 round burst.

[Butterfingers]

wouldent the time required to coordinate the movement of your 2 fingers also require an action potiental?

[MrWallen]

Just some random thoughts on the last few posts:
It takes 7ms for the whole nerve sequence to happen. It takes longer to move your fingers. 7ms between shots would only be possible if it were ONLY your nerves controlling the shots.
However, if it's a two round burst ONLY, then you wouldn't have to worry about most of this (I think), your fingers would be set up to fire the shots, only requiring the pulling motion, and not repeated. I'm not sure how it all works, but it seems possible to fire two shots in a time span faster than the 7ms this way, but it doesn't really have to do with nerves (well it does, but not in the way I'm thinking, at least). Only if you were repeating the motion, over a set period of time, where the body must go through the nerve and muscle process after each shot again.

But I could be totally wrong, we never really got in depth in nerves in Biology (duh, that'd be Physiology anyway).

[Butterfingers]

also the pull of a trigger requires a pull and a release before the second finger can even actuate the trigger... so 2 potentals need to be fired sequentially one for the pull the other for the release. This equals 14ms...

Even if you could get another finger in there staggering it even neglecting the action potentials needed to coordinate actions the fastest you could move the trigger using 2 fingers would still be 7 ms.

[Miscue]

Well, if you're raking it or catching the edge of the trigger... you don't have to let go for the trigger to release because you scraped by it. Look at a roller trigger, for instance... you don't really release it in the normal way.

[Butterfingers]

you have an intresting point it would be feasable if there were 2 lumps on your finger and it actuated the trigger like a cam using one stroke and only one action potential. But then that violates the NPPL definition of a trigger pull. One shot fired per pull and release...

[Kaiser Bob]

a multi bumpped trigger like a gator that you can rake will fire off 3 or 4 shots per stroke, up or down while remaining legal under the rules, physical contact with the trigger pulling it past the point of fire and then moving the finger so the trigger goes back to starting point, 1 pull 1 shot, just in extremely rapid succession. Basically a more efficent use of a finger movement, thereby increasing the human max ROF by up to eight times, 4 shots per stroke, 8 on a motion similar to a pull and release, just vertically.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Miscue
But that is only if you have one arm... or one finger. You have the second finger to get in there right after the first. You cannot sustain this, of course. I'm talking a 2 round burst.

Now obviously when you walk a trigger you can shoot faster than when just pulling with one finger. My questions is (and this is the tie in to the nerve idea): when walking, do you shoot twice as fast as you would when just pulling with one finger? My ideas on this are:

1) yes, twice as fast
2) no, 1.5 times as fast (I made up this number. It means faster than one finger but not twice as fast) because you lose at least some speed due to cordinating two finger monvent
3) yes but more than twice as fast. Could be that when walking you can get a repetative motion going that allows your fingers to move faster than they would with just one twitching.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Miscue
Well, if you're raking it or catching the edge of the trigger... you don't have to let go for the trigger to release because you scraped by it. Look at a roller trigger, for instance... you don't really release it in the normal way.

I think the idea of raking is getting away from the point.

I think we've seen that:

1) most people shooting with debounce on 0 shoot faster than when they set it on 7.
2) if we accept that even the nerve impulses take at least 7ms you shouldn't shoot any faster by setting the debounce lower than this because you couldn't possible be beating the 7ms.


Now, I've seen a lot of people who shoot faster at 1 then they do at 7. If they had one of those trigger that's made specificly for raking I can understand this as they can give you more than one shot per finger motion (notice I didn't say trigger pull because I understand that the trigger is ligitimatly moving back and forth). It's this more than one shot per movment that strays from the 7ms nerve idea.

It seems like raking a special bumpy triger can allow you to beat nature!

[Oddball]

well I like the thread, but I don't really understand the point of it. Basically Butters, you are saying that the limit of the nerve impulses is 7/1000 of a sec, which equals the therorectical limit of 143 shots/sec. You said that this does not include the muscles moving and what not. This is like saying that my '85 Sentra, with 70 horse power and a gear ratio of x:y means my car can, in theory, go 700 mph, not including the mass of the car, wind resistance, ect. Lord knows I have a hard time breaking 90 mph.

I do think that most of the electro guns out must "help" people get a higher rate of fire, and not just with a short, light trigger pull. what would be neat would be to give person whom has never played paintball an WAS timmy and let them hammer a way. should they be able to get 15 bps after a few minutes with the gun? i don't think so but I beat most could.

The little trick that I always think about whenever bps comes up is the dollar bill trick, where one person holds a bill vertical from the top while a second person places a thumb and finger (open) around the bottom of the bill. The person holding the bill lets go of it and the person with the finger and thumb tries to grab it, or pinch it, as it falls. I don't know for sure how long it takes the bill to pass the 2nd persons hand but they can't grab it (from what I have seen) even though they know that they are suppose to. Maybe I will try the calculate it tomarrow. Now if humans can't grab a simple bill being dropped, how can they get 20 bps by moving their fingers alone and not have "help"?

Sorry for any spelling errors, it is late and I did just back from the bar;)

[MrWallen]

Originally posted by Kaiser Bob a multi bumpped trigger like a gator that you can rake will fire off 3 or 4 shots per stroke, up or down while remaining legal under the rules, physical contact with the trigger pulling it past the point of fire and then moving the finger so the trigger goes back to starting point, 1 pull 1 shot, just in extremely rapid succession. Basically a more efficent use of a finger movement, thereby increasing the human max ROF by up to eight times, 4 shots per stroke, 8 on a motion similar to a pull and release, just vertically.

No, this is illegal (I'm almost positive), since this "stroke" would count as the trigger pull, and multiples shots with a single stroke isn't allowed. You're moving your finger in one direction only (up or down), and getting more than one shot out of it.

EDIT:
Oddball, someone already posted a similar experiment, but with a ruler instead of a dollar bill. This situation is a little different I think. If YOU were the one dropping AND catching the dollar bill, you would have no problem because you knew when it was going to happen. With a marker, there is no outside force causing you to have to react. I don't think reaction time is the issue at hand here.

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by MrWallen


No, this is illegal (I'm almost positive), since this "stroke" would count as the trigger pull, and multiples shots with a single stroke isn't allowed. You're moving your finger in one direction only (up or down), and getting more than one shot out of it.

EDIT:
Oddball, someone already posted a similar experiment, but with a ruler instead of a dollar bill. This situation is a little different I think. If YOU were the one dropping AND catching the dollar bill, you would have no problem because you knew when it was going to happen. With a marker, there is no outside force causing you to have to react. I don't think reaction time is the issue at hand here.

Nope, because if you analyze it, the motion of your finger from the top of the bump pushes the trigger to activate, then you move your finger lower to release the trigger to start, then move further down to pull the trigger again. That is 1 shot per pull, trigger going back, firing and going forward and that is all the rule requires, it dosent say 1 per pull except for when you are trying to get more then 1 shot out of a finger stroke by moving your finger up and down instead of back and forth. :)

[lord1234]

ok smart bio boys....
now..build me a contraption that would send pulses to my finger muscles every 10 milliseconds without causing extreme pain...can it be done?

--lord

[Furby]

I'd volunteer to have a neural network installed to allow me to fire my marker via direct neural impulse...just have to figure out where to put the jack...

[davidb]

I'm going to get away from the physiological aspects of the discussion for a tick and get to the reason it was brought up in the first place - cheater boards.

We've all seen those posts on other forums where people show the pic of the LCD on their Intimidator reading "30-something BPS", or however high that got. I think I remember one at 34, or around there. They achieved these numbers by putting the debounce all the way down, turning the marker upside down, sacrificing a goat, and praying to Jesus, Allah, Buddah, Vishnu, and the patron saint of electronics. Basically, in the most absolutely favorable conditions they could come up with, PLUS electronic assistance (which even they themselves acknowledged), they still were just able to break 30 CPS, or at least closer to 30 than 40.

With that said, why should anyone feel any need to set their debounce settings any lower than, say, 20 ms? Or, for the sake of argument, why don't we just say 15? The only way, according to what I've caught from Butters' posts, to exceed that limit would be to:

Have both fingers (which have near zero mass but near infinite force to accelerate them) in position ready to fire the trigger, order the first finger to pull, count in your head for eight or nine milliseconds, and then simultaneously order your first finger to return, and your second finger to begin travel. Your first finger, with luck and superb timing, will succeed in reversing its stroke just as it completes the trigger pull, allowing the second finger to pull the trigger just as it is released.

After doing some quick calculations in my head, I conclude that setting a minimum debounce time of 15 ms for any marker with the setting available would cause each player using said markers to miss shots on an average of one time every 58 years, 8 months, 23 days, 4 hours, and 13 minutes, assuming a 365 and 1/4 day year. Much as I would feel sorry for their loss, I for one believe that it is not too steep a price to pay to make the game that much more fair.

:D

[MrWallen]

Originally posted by Kaiser Bob


Nope, because if you analyze it, the motion of your finger from the top of the bump pushes the trigger to activate, then you move your finger lower to release the trigger to start, then move further down to pull the trigger again. That is 1 shot per pull, trigger going back, firing and going forward and that is all the rule requires, it dosent say 1 per pull except for when you are trying to get more then 1 shot out of a finger stroke by moving your finger up and down instead of back and forth. :)

I'm gonna stand by my statement: I think it's illegal. That's why not everyone is using roller triggers right now, they aren't allowed.

davidb: Did your friend have a WAS board in his marker? If so, I think there was a recent post in one of the forums here in which Budd Orr (I think) and one other guy got a device to measure bps, and it turned out the WAS board was inflating results, by only taking the BPS of the fastest two shots in a string, and then like adding 10 bps to that number :rolleyes: , or something like that.
And how would turning the gun upside down help? Without paint, there is more recoil in the marker, making it more difficult to walk. With this in mind I've always gone under the assumption that however fast you can shoo dryfiring, you can shoot a little faster with paint.

[epterry]

Hmmm very interesting. I love the few smart people on AO (not that I am one of them). I really wish you had more time to post Butter. Oh well I guess I will just have to wait until I get to collage at MIT ;) to be with lots of other smart people. Sigh. I remember that when I first joined more of the people/threads on AO were worth listening to/reading. Now it seems like more of the threads are just “if u putt moor then 1 sticker on ur gun it shots farther.” I said all of this in hopes to encourage you to post more. Thanks :cool:

[Kaiser Bob]

Check the NPPL rules man, the paragragh on trigger legality is like 2 lines. All it says is the trigger is to be pulled to firing point and only 1 shot comes out. Thats it. To make ridged triggers illegal would require either an inference to something in the rules that isnt there, or a revision of the rules

[demonguy8]

Alright heres my take from the info already provided.

Given: 7ms= Nerve time
M= Muscle time
T= time it takes for the spring/magnet/whatever to reset the trigger
143/2=71.5 = Upper limit of Nerve pulls a sec without regard to other figures (ya gotta release the thing before you can pull it again)


MAXIMUM time it takes to fire the trigger with one finger once: 7ms + M

Time to FIRE and RELEASE the trigger once
2(7ms) + 2M

Time to fire a and release a two round burst
2(7ms) +2M + T + 2(7ms) + 2M

Now some food for thought.... Looking at it this way... there should be no difference in MROF between one finger and two fingers since both need a double signal to be sent. Now since its generally accepted that walking is faster, is the reason because of the upper limit on a single muscle OR is it the fact that part of coordinating your fingers would include sending the impulse for the second finger to move forward as the first one was coming off (but with enough time where NEITHER are pulling the trigger for the trigger spring to reset itself)????

[Miscue]

?

How are two fingers not faster than one... having different MROFs? They are independent of each other. Isn't that like saying a drummer can beat on his snare just as fast with one stick as with two?

[Butterfingers]

Well if your not basing your trigger pull on sheer luck your brain also must under go consecutive action potentials and synapses to coordinate movment...

for example...

1) Finger 1 pull... 7ms

THEN (if 1 and 2 happen together you will just have a spasm)

2) Finger one release... 7ms

THEN or (AND If you are lucky)

3) Finger 2 pull... 7ms

This is to fire 2 consecutive shots with coordination of 2 fingers.

[Miscue]

Why would there be a 7ms delay if I just nick/rake the trigger and scrape by it, followed by a second pull with another finger? Or, in the case of a nubbed trigger?

BTW, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. This topic interests me, and I think throwing in more viewpoints can help us understand it better.

[Ultimator]

For the record, this is using a WAS Lasoya timmy after 200 shots. No paint or air was used:

1ms Debounce: 18bps
15ms Debounce: 12bps

[Butterfingers]

I knew it! Miscue has a deal with the devil!!!

If you can manage all those movements and get the gun to fire consecutively within the 7ms window you are a very lucky person.

Possible but given that scenario its just luck and most likely isnt gonna effect your rate of fire much. Not enough to account for a 6bps diffrence given ultimators example. Especially given the time your muscles need for movment the time required to actually move the trigger and your psycological limits which are nowhere near the limits of your nerve impulse.

Probably have a better chance of being struck by lightning twice consecutively while digging a hole on a sunny day.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
I knew it! Miscue has a deal with the devil!!!


If I did, I would have at least got a harem or two out of it. /me looks around and doesn't see one.

[davidb]

davidb: Did your friend have a WAS board in his marker? If so, I think there was a recent post in one of the forums here in which Budd Orr (I think) and one other guy got a device to measure bps, and it turned out the WAS board was inflating results, by only taking the BPS of the fastest two shots in a string, and then like adding 10 bps to that number :rolleyes: , or something like that.

They were not my friends. As I said before, they were people who posted on other forums. I was aware of the "shocking" :rolleyes: discovery of the built-in ROF exaggerator. Basically that just makes me all the more correct my assertion that a 15 ms minimum on debounce settings would not be holding anyone back from their "true potential".



And how would turning the gun upside down help? Without paint, there is more recoil in the marker, making it more difficult to walk. With this in mind I've always gone under the assumption that however fast you can shoo dryfiring, you can shoot a little faster with paint.

I have no idea how turning the gun upside down helps.
Here's what I said-

"They achieved these numbers by putting the debounce all the way down, turning the marker upside down, sacrificing a goat, and praying to Jesus, Allah, Buddah, Vishnu, and the patron saint of electronics."

Amidst all that, I have no idea why you would think that I was serious, BUT - I remember that at least one of them did mention turning the gun upside down. I imagine they tried all manner of useless, impractical positions to see where they got the highest numbers.

When I first saw your post, I thought you were arguing with me, but now I'm just not sure anymore. ?:confused:?

[MrWallen]

No, not arguing, just didn't know you weren't being serious.

C'mon, man, everyone knows that if you're not being serious then promiscuous use of the :rolleyes: smilies are required, otherwise people don't it, lol. :) :D ;) :cool:

[robdamanii]

The entirity of the discussion here is that it takes 14 ms for a nerve cycle to cause a finger to pull and release the trigger. That is the average. Now, when we factor in neromuscular factors (motor unit recruitment, coordination) we add to that time significantly. We further add to the time by needing the muscles to move and complete their action. "Muscle memory" could theoretically be a factor of increasing returns in this case (increasing the electrical "prime" of the muscles for a familiar action through psychological stimulation), causing a slight decrease in the time needed to activate the required motor units.

Additionally, that impulse is not a spinal reflex, rather a conscious thought, so it must travel from the brain to the motor unit, and feedback must travel back, further increasing the time required.

Not to mention we are creatures of reaction...we need reaction time. That takes time to process something in our heads as well.

All said and done? Lots of things limit us to about 20 BPS max right now, not the LEAST of which is our neurological impulse speed, but the time it takes the rest of the body to create and react to that impulse.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Although given enough time and practice with the movements of walking the trigger, couldn't it become almost instinctive. I forget the exact phrase since Nueroscience was 1.5 yrs back but when the nerve impulses only travel to the spinal cord much like people in response who have finely honed reflexes that outperform mst others do to the repetition. Will break out the book tonight...

Az

[karphead]

Since you're all talking reflexes, this might be applicable: Reflex Tester (http://www.reflexgame.com/)

However, a mouse click is longer than a trigger pull on most guns :rolleyes:

[robdamanii]

Originally posted by AzrealDarkmoonZ
Although given enough time and practice with the movements of walking the trigger, couldn't it become almost instinctive. I forget the exact phrase since Nueroscience was 1.5 yrs back but when the nerve impulses only travel to the spinal cord much like people in response who have finely honed reflexes that outperform mst others do to the repetition. Will break out the book tonight...

Az

The name also escapes me, but its adaptative.

I suppose it's possible, but some reasearch on it would be interesting.

[MrWallen]

Originally posted by karphead
Since you're all talking reflexes, this might be applicable: Reflex Tester (http://www.reflexgame.com/)

However, a mouse click is longer than a trigger pull on most guns :rolleyes:

NOOOOOOOOO, we AREN'T talking about reaction time, though it is a bit related to the topic, it is not the focus!!!!! ;)