Pneumatic Mags: A cure for the SP lawsuit problem and much more?

[cledford]

A couple of years back I saw the first pics of what appeared to be the hell spawned, bastard-child of a truly warped and twisted mind - a Automag that had the front-end of a cocker. I later found out that the contraption was made by Punisher and was quite the work horse.

Recently, a thread in the Workshop forum has brought the idea to the surface again; along with the rumors floating around AO for months about NiCad's pneumatic conversion. (What is up with that anyhow?)

The idea has got me wondering - if these frames operate at ~14bps they're going to be shooting as fast as most people can pull an electro. They would be cheaper to produce, not subject to legal action (patent issues), likely more reliable then an electro, and best of all give *some* customization options to owners. Another cool aspect would be that you could swap valves, therefore swapping gases, easily - which isn't really an option with the Emag.

So who's down with it? With level 10 you'd have a truly mechanical marker that would rival the electros, come in a decent price point, lose the reactivity/bounce trouble, allow for users to purchase more parts to hang off the front of their markers (making store owners happy), and would likely be the LIGHTEST, fistful of fire power in the industry. They would appeal to both the scenario/all-weather player and the speedball guy as well.

Any comments?

-Calvin

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

I think it would be a nifty idea, but it would have to relatively simple and drop in, and thats a hard combination, though if anyone can do it I am sure AGD could.

The problem would occur in the routing of air lines, it seems that by far and large the mags are heralded by there simplicity, start adding an external cockerish lpr, a ram that fits inside the frame and an extra fitting to supply air to the LPR and lets not forget the hoses running back and forth and you got the bastard child of East and West. You loose what I beleive is the key point to mag ergonomic and aesthetics, its simplicity. I remember thinking Westwood autocockers and nice annoed micromags looked the best of any marker for two totally opposite reasons. The cocker blew me away on the fact it just looked awesome in all ways and it looked so intricate. The mag was a tube that seemed almost mystical in that it only took that much room to fire a paintball at high speeds, and do it well.

If you could make a gripframe that incorporated all the components and just had a small fitting running into the gripframe from the air fitting on the side I think you would have something sellable.

The only other negative would be air efficiency, the mag is already called by some an air hog, when compared to today's electro pnuematics and such. Adding something like that would reduce air efficiency, for some reason on cockers the number that sticks in my head was 8% of air was used by the pnuematics system, I could be far off though.

Other than that it sounds like something very viable, assuming one could overcome the challenges.

Az

[melster]

What's the point? If you want something like that, buy a cocker.

ROF isn't the problem with mags anyhow. As far as I know, that's the mag's strength! With the ULT in there, the trigger pull is close to being as light as an electro. That means you can pull it even faster.

[RRfireblade]

I've made one myself and it is a neat idea but does add more complexity to a Mag thats getting more and more complicated with each and every "upgrade". Also,more parts and more milling doesn't equal "cheaper".

I have one in the works that's aimed at that same overall goal that doesn't use pnues and doesn't add any real complexity to the Mags current design.It's just not quite ready yet.

Jay.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by RogueFactor



I dont know ANYTHING about cockers. Please educate me.

Seriously? Here......

[RRfireblade]

On Mag you just link the trigger to a 3way and use an LPR fed ram to trip the sear.

Ram......

[RRfireblade]

What it will do is give you a really light and short pull,with the right 3way, and basically eliminate any short stroking possibility. My design will do that also with out all the extra parts.;)

[SlartyBartFast]

Forget the big ram.

Use an on/off connected to the trigger to operate/vent a small cartidge cylinder in the grip frame.

Use the Emag sear, you could perhaps fit the lpr in the gripframe as well.

[cledford]

Originally posted by melster
What's the point? If you want something like that, buy a cocker.

ROF isn't the problem with mags anyhow. As far as I know, that's the mag's strength! With the ULT in there, the trigger pull is close to being as light as an electro. That means you can pull it even faster.

Like it or not, ROF is a HUGE marketing issue these days. The Emag, which can shoot 20bps, is called "slow" by owners of other markers. These owners are potential mag purchasers, but who will only come over if the ROF is high enough. The SP issue has AGD freezing production and development on electros - to possibly never build them again. For AGD to remain viable, I feel, that ROF still needs to be a concern - whether from a mech or electro marker.

The ULT does not produce the ROF numbers required because it does not shorten the trigger pull, only lightens it. According to what I've read (taking claims at face value for present) is that pneumatic conversions can get anywhere from 2mm to sub-MM pulls. This puts the mechanical mag back into the game.

With regard to the reliability issues - I agree to an extent. Frankly though, the 'mags reliability, while still a huge marketing edge, isn't pulling in droves of new owners. Based on this I'd submit it's not as critical a sales factor as it once was. *I* buy mags for their reliability - but for every mag owner there is at least 5 cocker owners - that tells you something. Next, although I don't agree with it, some now claim the mag to be as complex (therefore potentially unreliable as any other marker) due to level 10 and ULT. So what's a little more for the potential good trade off?

I'm just thinking outside the box and appreciate anyone's input. This might not be the holy grail - but it's fun discussing it :)

-Calvin

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Forget the big ram.

Use an on/off connected to the trigger to operate/vent a small cartidge cylinder in the grip frame.

Use the Emag sear, you could perhaps fit the lpr in the gripframe as well.

I've had them all IN the frame using over the counter parts.

[melster]

The emag is stuck at 20 bps because AGD caps it that way. It can go much faster. Besides, this is about mechanical markers, not electros.

BTW, I have ULT on an RT Pro with a carbon fiber grip frame. The pull (length and weight) on this is TINY. I think short stroking is impossible, because it almost feels like right after I pull it, it's getting pushed right back at my finger. There's no way (and no need) to pull this trigger back to the stop during rapid fire.

There is no way I can personally outrun that trigger. Of course, we'll just have to see when my logic frame gets here sometime this year (@#%^#^# slow-@$$ anno) so that I can test walking it on a double trigger.

[cledford]

Originally posted by melster
The emag is stuck at 20 bps because AGD caps it that way. It can go much faster. Besides, this is about mechanical markers, not electros.

BTW, I have ULT on an RT Pro with a carbon fiber grip frame. The pull (length and weight) on this is TINY. I think short stroking is impossible, because it almost feels like right after I pull it, it's getting pushed right back at my finger. There's no way (and no need) to pull this trigger back to the stop during rapid fire.

There is no way I can personally outrun that trigger. Of course, we'll just have to see when my logic frame gets here sometime this year (@#%^#^# slow-@$$ anno) so that I can test walking it on a double trigger.

I have a ULT on my RT and do not agree with your opinion on the trigger. It is light, a lot lighter then any other mech marker I've ever owned, but is isn't close in length to ANY of my Emarkers (Emag, Viking, Shocker, Racegun) and is a bit heavier as well.

I believe the Emag is set at 20bps to insure reliablity and save wear on the sears/bolts. (Just my guess)

-Calvin

[GT]

Correct if I am wrong but how would this make the trigger any lighter than the ULT? I think it was a great idea back in the day prior to ULT to assist the user with silky smooth pulls, however after ULT its kind pointless.


I believe I read/herd somewhere that Nicad uses an LPR for his electro coversion.. I am also taking a big guess in saying that Nicad's new frame will be a mod'd cam like sear?

[melster]

OK..I just read the pneumatic conversion threads, and I see your point.

Basically the pneumatic assist is an attempt to convert trigger actuation into a push-button affair. This would disconnect sear tripping duties from the trigger pull itself, and letting a 3-way do it for you via button actuation.

Very interesting actually.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by gtrsi
Correct if I am wrong but how would this make the trigger any lighter than the ULT?

The trigger would only be activating a 3-way. Therefor it could be infintessimally light.

Use a palmer quick switch, and it only has to travel .5mm. Use a little bit of leverage and it can be a shorter pull than even that.

So, is Nicad's new layout electronic as well or is it purely pneumatic?

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Slightly off topic but why is AGD laying off on making a new electro frame, I have heard its because of the SP issue but aren't they still producing and selling emags?

Az

[melster]

maybe they should just make a pneumatic one?

[GT]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


The trigger would only be activating a 3-way. Therefor it could be infintessimally light.

Use a palmer quick switch, and it only has to travel .5mm. Use a little bit of leverage and it can be a shorter pull than even that.

So, is Nicad's new layout electronic as well or is it purely pneumatic?

I just dont see it being all that better than the current mag. I have shot tons of cockers and have yet to be all that impressed.

so like alot of work and to much stuff to go wrong.

I believe that Nicad's deal is entirly mech, but to be honest I only know what he had posted in a few threads..

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by gtrsi


I just dont see it being all that better than the current mag. I have shot tons of cockers and have yet to be all that impressed.

You need to shoot the right ones.

Set up right,lighter than a ULT and ~1mm with no shortstroke possibilities,if done right and applied to a Mag.

Jay.

[Jack & Coke]

I like the idea of this pneumatic conversion!

Do you think the mag's poor efficiency (compared to todays top markers) would get even worse with this pneumatic kit?

[RRfireblade]

Jake-

Yes,but I did mine on an L7 so I wasn't thinking about effeciency when I did it.I saw Punishers first and just wanted to see if I could get everything inside the frame.

I still have the frame w/ sear laying around somewhere,I probably could get it back together with a few more spare parts.

Rogue-

That's the only way I do it.:D

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
I like the idea of this pneumatic conversion!

Do you think the mag's poor efficiency (compared to todays top markers) would get even worse with this pneumatic kit?

Damn, swore I wouldn't talk about this on list, but:

When it comes to poor efficiency, people are really thinking shots per tank.

The problem is mags can't go as far to the botton of the tank as others.

But a mag only needs 400psi in the dump chamber. [Or it used too before lvl10], so why need more? Why even need 400?

Think spring.

Think what the difference between a spider and a timmie is.

So for the Mag valve?.....

I'll never be rich. Keep giving away my ideas.....:(

[nerobro]

Does anyone have any idea how easy this woudl be with a classic RT, with it's airline assesory holes? *grins*

While the pull may be shorter, I don't see a 3 way being much lighter than a ULT :-)

[Ov3rmind]

I really like this idea. Not only would your trigger pull be shorter, but it would be much smoother. Honestly, the added penumatics shouldn't be that unreliable, especially when everyone's already adding ULTs and Lvl 10s.

[Jerhew]

i imagine you could just mount the lpr vertically where the foregrip is(ala autococker)
and then maybe you could fit both the ram and 4way in the grip...
obviously you don't need a full cocker sized ram so it could work...
and since it's only controlling the ram and there's technically no timing issues the way there are in cockers...it wouldn't be that hard to keep timed

i love mechanical wackiness so i do like the idea...
but it kind of seems to be over-complicated

[RRfireblade]

I know Rogue.;)

[Jack & Coke]

If this mod does the following:

ELIMINATE short stroking (Chuff! Chuff!)

and

Shorter and softer trigger pull

...then I'm all for it!:)http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Current RT triggers don't short-stroke because of the heavy pull and return trigger forces. However the trigger pull is still very stiff and impossible to walk.

ULT is a step forward in getting the trigger light enough to walk, however the increased occurances of chuffing associated with the UTL design practically negates it's usefullness.

AGD make this happen!

[nicad]

as yes... the pneumatic mags.

end of 2002 I built a electro-penumatic mag gripframe. integrated in rail, snatch grip, optical trigger, and direct mechanical over-ride. the grip is electrical (ran off a 9v in the grip). I was thinking about modifying Intelliframes for this, but never came about.

http://www.deadlywind.com/chord/02270038s.jpg

Don't confuse this grip frame with the 100% mechanical frame I'v made since. It is based in an Intelliframe, but took some heavy modification... not exactly drop-in.

http://www.deadlywind.com/dallara/my_dallara/12290032s.jpg

I started the protection process on it earlier last year and have since been approached by a number of heads (owners, etc) in the paintball industry about getting this mechanical concept manufactured. It is currently in the process of doing so and hopefully, if all goes well, should be an available product in the near future (this year??). Due to the situation, I can't say much more about it... except that it will blow you away. :)

out!

[Jack & Coke]

Sweet!!!

AGD should have you on their payroll:D

[nicad]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
.. AGD should have you on their payroll:D

..who says they dont?
well, not "officially". ;)

[cledford]

Originally posted by Jerhew
i love mechanical wackiness so i do like the idea...
but it kind of seems to be over-complicated

And cobbling together a solenoid, board and a bunch of wires doesn't? I remember when the first Shocker (PVI) came out - I was shocked alright!

What is normal today was over complicated a few years ago and in some ways this is actually moving backwards in complication - at least you don't need a pc, oscilloscope, or voltmeter to work on it.
:)

Would you say a pneumatic mag would be LESS reliable then an electronic?

If no, what do we gain?

No silly law suits but get same ROF.
Lighter marker - no batteries
Upgrade path
Another win for innovation
Cheaper (this is my guess) marker

What do we loss?

Some efficiency
Some (could be small, cold be a lot) measure of simplicity and reliability

IS it worth it? Let's talk about the wins and losses and decide. Throw up any more you can think of...

-Calvin

[nicad]

typical shots lost due to energy consuption, assumeing 1530 shots off of a 68/4500 tank(200 CIPSI/shot gun setup): ~4 shots.
For a mag, this total shots lost number is smaller, due to it being a gun that consumes more than 200CIPSI/shot.

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by gtrsi

I just dont see it being all that better than the current mag. I have shot tons of cockers and have yet to be all that impressed.

There would be a major difference in this case. Though I only have limited knowledge of this mod, it appears to me the only thing you would be actuating with the trigger is a 3-way, which is lighter than any mechanical trigger. In the case of autocockers, the problem is you are not JUST actuating a 3-way, you are also dropping a sear that has a considerable ammount of pressure applied to it by the hammer. If you don't believe me, unscrew the cocking rod on any cocker and shoot it. I can easily walk my hinge/bomb 3-way combo without the cocking rod in, and, from what I understand, this is exactly how this trigger would feel. Since the ram would act as the rod compressing the on/off (I think that's how it works), the trigger would only have to actuate the 3-way, meaning a frictionless trigger. You could choose the spring weight to your liking, and get the trigger length to near-nothing with a 2 oz trigger pull. SOUNDS GOOD TO ME! :D

[Crimson_Turkey]

Im in the process of releasing a new gun that uses a similar system, just with a much shorter and lighter trigger pull than any 3-way. It can be adjusted down to .4mm and a 1.5 oz pull.

[Jack & Coke]

How much pressure is required to trip the sear and close the on/off?