A disturbing trend...

[Tyger]

Durty Dan on his site had, for a while, a section called "Durty Dan vents his spleen". I'm stealing the idea.

Over on another forum some kid asks for advice on playing woods ball. He then get berated and verbally beaten up. And why? "Only n3wbz play woods." And "If you don't play speedball you should just quit playing." It's not said in jest, I've seen it on at least three forums and the person was serious. Play speedball or don't play at all is the motto.

Now I won't go into the details, but I've been seeing this as a trend as of late. It's almost militant how protctive people get over the style of paintball they play. "we won't play anything but AIR BUNKERS!" Isn't that like saying you'll never drive on anything smaller than a 3 lane highway? Or you'll never eat anything other than nachos with your special green sauce on them?

What ever happend to well rounded players? Players who can go from one type of terrain to another without caring what it is? "Next game is where? Ok, I'm down. Lemme grab my pack." Or at least players who really didn't give an airborne concievable act with a rolling pastry where the next game is, as long as there's a next game?

And for what it's worth, why are "speedballers" so defensive when you bring up woods ball? Is there an inadequacy clause here? It certainly can't be intimidation, as we all know "woods-ballaz only use "Tippys" and "speedballaz use "E-guns". So are they feeling threatened? If it threatens us, kill it? And if that's the case, what's the threat? Woods ball gets on TV first? NAw, couldn't be that. Oh, wait, it's already happened... A few times...

The only thought I have is that there's a panic. If the entire "game" of paintall is not played on speedball / airball / tube fields, then it will never be considered a "Sport"? So in order to get paintball as an accepted "sport" you must intimidate everyone into stepping in line and doing what you want them to do? Perhaps it's the winning mentality. They feel they have to win at the game, but they also have to win the non-existant battle to make the game what they want it to be?

I just find it disturbing, that's all. Sure, it's fun to play on the airbag course. Why can't it be fun to play in the woods too? Oh, right. Woods ball encourages the "military" image of paintball. Like the fact we're shooting "guns" at people to "kill" them is helping it any. But it seems we just can not embrace that concept, and continue to try to work around the core of the game to market it.

I won't say "Can't we all get along?", because it's obvious we can't. So I'll just say this. Let's admit, as a group, that paintball is actually two seperte entities. The woods players who want to go romp in the flora and fauna, and the arena players who want to romp in the limelight. Can we collectively admit this? Just once?

Or is it a pride thing? Or a "Ford / Chevy" thing? Or just an ego problem? Or are we going through a collective caniption because the basis of the game is really what will keep it from being televised. And as we all know, once paintball is on TV we'll all make a million dollars and the speedball fields will be paved in gold. Really.

I don't know, But my spleen feels better...

-Tyger

[f3rr3+]

i didnt read all of that but... i could care less where or how im playing i just love to play... it def. is going in the direction of far less people playing woods ball, and i think mostly because of the hype and political correctness... dont get me wrong tho, i LOVE all types of paintball and airball is nice cause your in the game right away ;)

[jayloo]

The saying "different strokes for different folks" comes to mind here. But it seens not everyone has an open mind due to ego and the like.

Personally I do not like woods ball but if its that or nothin than woods ball it is.

[krafty]

That's just really sad. Unfortunately however I can say that there are people at my field who would give the same advice. :(

I can honestly say the best times I've EVER had playing paintball were woods/scenerio/big games. I enjoy playing on airball fields, hyperball fields, hell, just about anything.

[Tyger]

What I'd really like to answer is "why?" Why is airball "Better" than woods games? If you actually corner a guy who's "airball only" and ask him, he'll give you the same answer you'll get from a woods player. "It's the rush."

I still think it's the promise that we can all be heroes on TV that keeps them violently opposed to woods ball. But that's me. "The woods game is holding US back!" I've heard that from a lot of people. Held back from what?

-Tyger

[Branchvillian]

Less browsing of PBN, less anger. Most PBN posters are noobs.

[Josh2Xtremes]

Rob:
Good points. I'm not sure I like the concept that paintball has irrevocably broken into "woodsball" and "speedball" genres but it does have a disturbingly factual ring to it. As a person who edits a magazine that leads the industry in its coverage of arena events and who also edits the only magazine totally dedicated to the recreational/scenario style of play that is practically all woods-ball, I'm proud to say I love them both, and feel I'm half-decent at them both from a player's standpoint. I can have just as much fun and feel just as strong a rush of adrenalin in the woods as I can on the speedball field. I just love paintball. Period. It's all paintball. It's all good. Play safe, have fun, that's doing it right.
Josh

[cledford]

What really bothers me is the stigma attached to "woods ball" even by our own brethren. I've seen a number of posts in threads as far back as a year and a half ago where PB players berate other players for "militant clothing", markers that are too "real", and their style of "anti-social" play. It sickens me on several levels. First I find it absolutely ridiculous that some one would care to CAST OFF a fellow player as expendable to make their style of play a little more secure - but I've seen it even here on AO. What is even more ironic is that they seem to feel that by casting off the "militant types" that their choice of how they run around shooting people is going to be acceptable to those (Rosie O'Donnell) types who would have it done away with altogether. There are a number of times in such threads I've seen statements about how good it is that our sport "evolved out of the woods" and that the "woods" need to go away so that the sport is more socially acceptable. It befuddles me how some can feel that since they don't wear camo and do shoot a purple marker that they are legit, while people shooting black ones are "militant psychos."

All I can say is that had you asked me 6-9 months ago I'd have told you that any play outside of speedball was doomed in the short term. I'd based that opinion on the responses I'd seen in those threads. Now I hear scenario games are the next big plateau in the sport - with several manufacturers as big as AGD and WGP catering to the game style. All I can say is that I'm shocked but happy by the new trend. As a true veteran of the pro-gun movement I can see the folly with internal (We're "better" then you) squabbling. Personally, I'm a former military member and cop who started playing BECAUSE the sport was a simulated combat environment. I'm glad to see that aspect reemerging and acceptable.

What we have to watch out for as we move forward is 2 things. First, those within our own sport, who applauded themselves for "moving the sport forward from a violence based perception" while at the same time using such nonsense for justifying their millions of dollars worth of soft goods sales. (I'll going ahead and name names, in an interview in Faceful Dave Youngblood said as much - that he was helping legitimize the sport by leading it away from camo clothing by pushing his line of brightly colored stuff...) The second group are our down trodden brethren from across the pond. They seem to be EXTREMELY concerned about the mis-perception of our sport - especially if that involves anything military related. They as much as, and possibly more than anyone at the fore-front of the anti-woods/rec/scenario movement - just pick up a copy of Faceful to see for yourself. Because their political systems are whacked, because they choose not to educate and fight for their rights, because they live in oppressive societies, they would see to it that we lose our right to play all styles in an instant - to insure their one option remains. Ben Franklin said it best when he said (to the effect) "that we can all "hang" together, or we all can HANG separately." It's little surprise to me that he was an American.

-Calvin

[Rather]

What if someone were to set up sup-air bunkers in a woods field? Or baloon bunkers used on fields with tree's dotted here and there. Sort of mix them together. Mabey get rid of a few steriotypical things. It could go places. Having the fun of airball and getting rid of lanes and cutting down on off the break shots. But still keeps that fun element of squishing into the bunker. that could kill abunch of woods/speed slander.

Anyone else think that could at least cut back on the hating?

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

well for me to solve this problem i did the following.

Purchased an X-Mag for those hyperball and supair fields.
(works great in the forests also)

Then i bought a wgp ranger and heavily upgraded it for a scenario/rec style play.

That way i can play in any field on any terreign(sp?)

I support both types of play and i don't care which field i go to (well...i do have a fear of scratching up my xmag when i'm in the woods...that's about it)

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I've been around paintball just as long as Josh has; except I was on the west coast and I feel the same as he does about it. I don't prefer one style over the other but I feel I'm decent at both. I just see this as a result of the money and the fact that the popular kids arrived late to the party...

it's kind of like when I was student teaching and the kids asked me how the internet was when I was there age. They were mystified by the fact that i told them that the internet did not exist, at least in it's present sense, until I was in high school.

The people these days are being driven by the images in magazines and the opinion from their peers that paintball isn't cool if it's in the woods. Even the Pan Am, one of the last tourney series to include woods fields, has dropped all of their non AirBall events. It's something that we have to live with if we are going to continue playing the game we love.

on a side note, I don't necessarily agree with people who make markers look more like real weapons. It's your own perogrative but why risk the acceptance of the outside (I don't mean accepting our sport as real...but just not outright trying to ban it) world over the fact that you want your Spyder to look like an MP5 because you like to tear people up using one playing CounterStrike...

[Methylphenidate]

ok you all might not agree with me on this but here is my two cents on the speedball woodball debate. and i will give my reasoning.

speed ball all the way. speed ball is the only way that paintball will ever be moved from the the catogory of activity to the category of an actual sport in the eyes of the general public.(i.e. people who are not familiar with the game). and it has nothing to do with being on television or fame.
speed ball is a sport because it requires things that all other sports do. things like skill, practice, strategy. no one walks on to a speed ball field and is immediatly olie lang. just as no one steps on to a basketball court and is micheal jordan. yes some people have this thing called natural talent that gives them a considerable edge over other, but you cant just jump in the ring with ali because you think you box.

where in wood ball sure there is some strategy but for the most part it comes out to luck of the draw, as my friends say anything and everything can happen in wood ball. and you can be a totall newb with no experience and still kill the best player that has been playing for years, why because you went to walmart bought a plastic bush duct taped it to your back and hid in a ditch while you waited for someone to come by. tell me where is the skill in that.
how did he practice and study and refine his game to dress up like a bush and shoot people as they walk by. that is not a sport my friend that is a hobby.

[barberjohn]

well, i mostly play at my local speedball field, and not my woodsball field, because the woodsball feild owner is a jackass and charges extremely high prices for paint, air, and field fees. i like all types of paintball, as long as its paintball!

[cledford]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy

on a side note, I don't necessarily agree with people who make markers look more like real weapons. It's your own perogrative but why risk the acceptance of the outside (I don't mean accepting our sport as real...but just not outright trying to ban it) world over the fact that you want your Spyder to look like an MP5 because you like to tear people up using one playing CounterStrike...

Exactly one of my points - do you think that people who would have the sport banned care whether a marker looks like a Dragon Timmy or an Tippmann A5? Honestly, it's not how that marker looks it's the fact that you're shooting (erm, marking) other people with it. In reality, they might seek to ban the A5/Milsim marker first - claiming "public safety concerns" but do you really think that once black, "mean" looking markers are gone that your red cocker or purple Angel is safe? I say all in or not in at all. You can count on the guy with the Milsim marker to defend your sport, you can count on the person against the milsim marker to try to ban at least part if not all of it - who do you really want to support?

-Calvin

[wimag]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy

on a side note, I don't necessarily agree with people who make markers look more like real weapons. It's your own perogrative but why risk the acceptance of the outside (I don't mean accepting our sport as real...but just not outright trying to ban it) world over the fact that you want your Spyder to look like an MP5 because you like to tear people up using one playing CounterStrike...

ugghhh. Tyger started this thread on being more open minded and you had to throw this in there.

I think the bozos doing drive byes and such have more of an impact of getting paintball banned as opposed to a small percentage dressing their markers up, who for the most part are only seen at events.

[chizle97]

"APLAUSE" I whole-heartedly agre now if you could just tell that to the kids with the excals-ecockers-03shockers-and DM4s in the same dye bag that. (yes there is one of those kids at the local field. needless to say he sux at life)

[Lohman446]

Ready for this, and Im about to get lynched by the speedball players.

Let me say, in my own defense - I prefer speedball - though I play woodsball often enough, these are why I prefer speedball Now here we go

In rec. speedball mad rush tactics (bunker moves) even poorly executed, and the ability to lay a stream of paint, can cover up a lack of skill. Frankly when I go out on rec days I fire enough paint into the air to make up for a lack of skill (even with my mechanical mag).

Look at how I play woodsball, I make sure to carry as much paint as I do when I play speedball, I am very slow off the break adn let everyone else find the enemy. This helps eliminate one skillset I choose not to use in woodsball, patience and stealth. Am I stealthy - sure, I often enough pick the holes in the defense, force through them - it is very seldom that I am not the first to be assaulting the base and I get the flag about 50% of the time. But, the fact of the matter is - in a "firefight" I use a lot of paint.

There are two different skill sets to the two games - I am better at speedball with rec players than woodsball, perhaps thats why I prefer speedball.

So - Tyger, its an ego thing, I would rather play that which I can appear better at, though why I have no idea. If I were to take this one step further, I would simply demean those who play woodsball, I don't I enjoy woodsball myself, but it could be the next step.

[Severe]

Originally posted by Methylphenidate
speed ball all the way. speed ball is the only way that paintball will ever be moved from the the catogory of activity to the category of an actual sport in the eyes of the general public.(i.e. people who are not familiar with the game). and it has nothing to do with being on television or fame.
speed ball is a sport because it requires things that all other sports do. things like skill, practice, strategy. no one walks on to a speed ball field and is immediatly olie lang. just as no one steps on to a basketball court and is micheal jordan. yes some people have this thing called natural talent that gives them a considerable edge over other, but you cant just jump in the ring with ali because you think you box.

where in wood ball sure there is some strategy but for the most part it comes out to luck of the draw, as my friends say anything and everything can happen in wood ball. and you can be a totall newb with no experience and still kill the best player that has been playing for years, why because you went to walmart bought a plastic bush duct taped it to your back and hid in a ditch while you waited for someone to come by. tell me where is the skill in that.
how did he practice and study and refine his game to dress up like a bush and shoot people as they walk by. that is not a sport my friend that is a hobby.

This is exactly the type narrow minded thinking that Tyger is talking about! The above comments are a banner proclaiming the ignorance of the speaker.

I'm just dying to go on a rant here, but I'll refrain.

However,I'll say this, there is skill required in both Speedball and woods play. That skill varies greatly. I think if more people would focus on just enjoying the time they spend playing and trying to be a good ambassardor to the sport/hobby/recreation activity (or whatever it is that makes you feel batter to classify paintball) the better off all players would be.

Steve

[RusskiX]

I personally think that there is a large, but silent majority of rec-ballers who play exclusively woods ball, but don't frequent the boards enough to voice an opinion. The result is a vocal population of airballers pushing their view.

The overwhelming majority of ballers start in the woods, and I am grateful for the local courses for generating this grass roots growth of the game. I also appreciate the tourney scene for trying to legitimize paintball to an outsider. But I don't believe that airball has the monopoly on educating the public. Friends bringing first time players to the woods have had just as much success growing the sport as airball.

As long as the play is safe and organized there should be room for both. Personally, I've played speedball and woods, I wear my JT jersey and shoot my Angel and Eblade, but I prefer woods over airball. I think there is room for everybody at the table.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Originally posted by Methylphenidate
ok you all might not agree with me on this but here is my two cents on the speedball woodball debate. and i will give my reasoning.

speed ball all the way. speed ball is the only way that paintball will ever be moved from the the catogory of activity to the category of an actual sport in the eyes of the general public.(i.e. people who are not familiar with the game). and it has nothing to do with being on television or fame.
...

Speedball IS the most likely way paintball will move to become a "real sport", and part of that has to do with the ease with which it is possible to make a balanced field. You can make a balanced woods field, but they will never be symetrical, and thus there will always be debate as to which end is "better". The other main advantage to speedball is that it is easier to watch, and thus to get TV coverage and advertising revenue. But speedball is usually no more a sport than rec players in the woods. Because there aren't enough referees to ensure the rules are followed, and because the single-hang-takes-all style of game makes the whole thing too unpredictable.

X-ball IS a sport, from what I know of it. But that is not because of the field set-up, but all the other rules about game timing, player positions, substitutions and paint limits. Put those same rules to use in the woods, and you still have the same sport, but you can't put on TV.


I'm going to ignore the other half of your post, as Severe already did a good job of pointing out what was wrong with it.

BTW Tyger - Nice rant, and good for you for reading PBN. Hopefully you cans et a few of them straight!

[magking1971]

It's almost as bad as people calling paintball guns "gats":rolleyes:

[Faultie]

One question I got is why the sudden move away from the older idea of the "national survival game" and the military aspects. I'm not a die-hard scenario gamer, I play speed or woods, whatever, but I just wanna know why people who get vulgar, threaten others, and down-others for their likes and dislikes want to distance themselves from the idea of violence in their sport? Another question is what's wrong with the violence/military idea? Killing games are the #1 sellers in video games, movies with killing and battles are #1, and most comic books/fiction books are violent/war-type things. If it's okay for games, movies, etc. to be associated w/ violence (especially on the level of GTA and GTA: Vice City), then why is it not okay for paintball? Hrm...go fig. Either way, I'd say most of the people making these statements are 13yrs old (+/- a few years) and that's just how 8th graders are. We are all that age once, and we all know how it is.
-Andrew

[Faultie]

Oh...and just my own rant...pball will be a sport when the players don't cover the cost to play and the bulk of money comes from people paying to watch...but that's the deal. Paintball isn't much fun to watch, I love playing, but nobody likes just watching (which is one reason I think people cheat, but I'll refrain from touching that topic...one pandora's box I'll not open). That's why X-ball is so promising, to me, b/c you can watch it and it might be fun to watch. You can really watch woods-ball, you know? I think pball's issue is that it has an expendible like no other sport...paintballs. Geh...oh well...another rant, blah blah blah. We were all 13 once, remember. The only choice is to just try to help these misled people, and not to try to insult them or say, "oh yeah, well, your style sucks". Just accept that they'll be there.
-Andrew

[Faultie]

delete this...

[Brophog]

Its the "Clown Theory". No one takes a clown seriously.

We seem to associate so much with color. Dark colors like black, green, and brown indicate bad things, troubling times. On the other hand, clown colors like red, yellow, and orange indicate happy thoughts. Now who would associate those colors with "guns" and "killing". It is color association that deems paintball "safer" if its not in the woods anymore.

As for the defense of the two, I think you can look at equipment as a result of that. While terrain is more important in woodsball, I think marker choice becomes less important. Rate of fire is not as big of a factor if you cannot see your opponent. I think that irritates a lot of people who have spent hard earned cash to buy the best marker possible. Imagine if you owned a Ferrari, but only had small city streets in order to drive it on. You'd be frustrated that you spent $60,000 and aren't allowed to use the Ferrari as it was intended.

Plus, I think some of it boils down to ignorance. Remember a lot of these guys are much younger, typically early high school years, or younger. Some of them have never seen woodsball. All they know is what they read in the magazines and videos. If the magazines are pushing speedball, yet the only knowledge of woodsball comes via the internet, or from some local friends, which do you think the young kid is gonna side with? He sees "pros" playing speedball, and the local neophyte playing woods. Its pretty obvious that he will side with speedball and rapidly dismiss woodsball. It's a big problem when you get a rapid surge of media AND a new young audience together at the same time. Those that don't know any better only know what is spoon fed to them, and in this case that is speedball.

[tyrion2323]

Or you'll never eat anything other than nachos with your special green sauce on them?
Let's not joke about this here...I love my green sauce, and I won't have it any other way!

Actually, this trend is disturbing - noobs spouting off about stuff they don't know about. Like most of you, I started off in the woods, and slowly learned about speedball and such as I read magazines. Although, unlike most of you, I am still young, and I am not wrinkly and grumpy....oops! heheh.

This seems like a reversal of what the situation USED to be like. I used to see a whole bunch of woodsplayers writing articles and posting negative images of Speedball. I remember when I decided that I liked speedball better, I realized "Hey, what's with all this negative bashing from the Woodsies?" It seems like this has turned around a bit. I would say that it stems from a lack of proper introduction to the sport.

We all know that paintball started in the woods. We've all shots CO2 powered Spyder and Tipps, and spent 20 minutes sneaking around a field to get to the flag. Newer players aren't introduced to that. They're introduced to Speedball and Hyp'Air. Is this bad? No, but just as Woodsball can be stereotyped as the redneck version of pball, the tournament scene can be stereotyped as the "skatepark" of paintball. There are too many "gangstas" and "gats," and not enough respect and encouragement. It seems that the two factions can't find a happy medium between woods and speed.

What needs to be done?
- Better management of fields. Owners need to crack down on "gat shootin' gangstas" who spray and pray. These no talent *** clowns perpetuate bad images of paintball, and then get picked up by the media (remember that picture of "Bear" or whatever his name was...).
- More responsibility on the part of the paintball media outlets (i.e. magazines and videos). I remember in the clip from 300 FPS, there were ridiculously violent parts where people threw their markers and attacked each other. Well, DUH - of COURSE people are going to think that paintball is all about fighting...or shall I say....fisticuffin'
- Less naked chicks and ghetto-*** pictures of Lasoya. Yeah, I admit that naked women appeal to me, but this is paintball...not playboy.com. Couple that with the "tough gangsta" image of Lasoya, and it's no wonder that we get rough attitudes.
- Finally, we need less people dressing up like cats and tigers and running around shooting people. Seriously, this probably the worst part of paintball...I mean, getting shot by a mountain lion? C'mon here ;)

Okay guys, those are my thoghts.

Jacob

[Gijim]

I've played both and enjoy both, although I play woods more just because its closer to me. I do agree that there seems to be a seperation with more players, either woods or speedball. To be honest it gets boring to play one type all the time thats why I enjoy the differences, but some don't see it that way and I believe they limit their fun and their abilities. It takes skill to play both so lets end that stupid arguement. I have noticed that it is easier to introduce new players to woods than it is speedball. You really need to have a conscience group of players when teaching a new player speedball, or they could end up not coming back after being shot 12 times after they said out. Plus, when short on money woods is the way to go, I go all day on less than half a case of paint, whereas I go through a case or more when playing alot of speedball. Still there is room for both and it seems it will stay that way, which is good for the sport.

[Tyger]

Ok, a lot to hit on...

First, to Tyiron and his mountain lions : :p

Ok, serious.

I wasn't cruising PBN, actually. It's a webboard that just strted up. I'm not going to post the site, only becasue I know if I did, you all would FLOOD over there, and it would be taken as an act of warfare. I don't play that way. I'll just leave it to that.

The gent in question has already demonstrated his ignorance to me. his quote to the original poster was "Quit or go play speedball." I took it upon myself to point it out to the rest of the board. And I wash my hands of his pig ignorance, and refuse to be held accountable for it.

The trashtalk between the two aspects of he game isn't new, I've jut seen it take a nasty turn. "Play our way or just sell your gear and quit." is a harsh stance. It also smacks of bigotry and strongarm tactics to get your way. But let me hit a few things here.

Josh2X : All good stuff. The split is there, I just figure it's time to just admit it and move on. Crossfire / 2X pretty much rides the sides, as they are. If I send a "Big Game" article to 2X, they'll forward it to Crossfire. And I'm perfectly OK with that. It also means that the speedball crowd does not have to buy what they don't want to. I think there's a huge crossover too, one to the other, but you don't read about them because they're not flashy.

Calvin : "Evolving" from the woods assumes the game has changed. Essentially, it has not. The windowdressing changed, but the basic premise has not. I'm jumping onto Rather's idea here, but you can take woods players and put them in an airball field, and they'd have at least a clue what was going on. Same goes to arena ballers into the woods. Each "specalty" has their own tricks on their own format. Speedballers know how to sweet spot and how to lane shoot. Woods ballers know how to sneak around and use soft cover. But they play the same game.

DurtyBunny brings up a good point, actually. The image driven by magazines is what is fueling it. I'd thought of this before, yes, but I wasn't thinking of it here. I guess it's connected too.

Methylphenidate : I will disagree with you that there's "no skill" in woods play, if only on the argument that I've heard the same thing said about speedball. "There's no skill in that, you just shoot paint." It's easy from the outside to say there's nothing to it. It's not just "luck of the draw", just like speedball isn't just "who can put pme paint in the air?"

One of the other things to talk about is the "dressing up" of paintguns to look like real firearms. Sure, there's a milsim aspect to paintball. The "Tac-One" is a prime example of this. But it also needs to be said that all paintball markers share somehting here. WE SHOOT PEOPLE WITH THEM!!!! That alone caused the NRA to avoid paintball. It doesn't matter what the clown suit or clown gun looks like, we're still shooting things at people. The only way to get around this, possibly, is to mill a paintball gun to look like a confetti gun or something, and even then you won't get far to putting paintball on 'Da Box.

Lohman also said somehting of note.


So - Tyger, its an ego thing, I would rather play that which I can appear better at, though why I have no idea. If I were to take this one step further, I would simply demean those who play woodsball, I don't I enjoy woodsball myself, but it could be the next step.

It's intresting to think that it could be as simple as that. If you'r enot good at that 'flavor', insist everyone drinks your flavor that you're good at. It would be a simple ego thing then, at that point. Playing guys in the woods brusies the ego, so don't play in the woods. Make them play in your arena, so you can bruise thier egos? It's an intresting concept.

Brophog added that it's clown theory. Well, perhaps. But they tried adding colors to the NFL teams too, and it didn't work. Color only goes so far. When it comes time to show what you've got, you can be in the brightest of brights and nobody will take you seriously.

-Tyger

PS : See, this is why I like AO. You can actually DISCUSS this stuff seriously here wihtout anyone reverting to "l337 5p33k"....

[Richter]

I started playing in 1994 and was weaned on woods-ball. I remember back then whining about not wanting to play speed ball because of the paint consumption and it seemed like anybody new or people that didn’t have an automag would lose; or get shot out quickly. Somewhere that idea changed for me. All I want to do is play speedball. I don’t care if it is pallets, pipe, barrels, tires, or inflatable bunkers; I rather play it other than woods and I’ll tell you why.

1. Speedball is usually played on a semi flat surface with usually some type of groomed vegetation. (alla mowed grass) I have twisted my ankle and have not been able to work because of paintball; I have gotten multiple rashes for poison oak, ivy or some other weed and had to go to doctor; I have seen a person slice most of the skin of his knee cap from slide/tripping into something on a woods field. Woods ball has more hazards!
2. Woods games it hard to tell who your opponent is and who is not your opponent. Arm bans are hard to see. I think I have been hit more by friendly fire in woods game than in speedball. I have been very hot at a couple of newer players for shooting me why I am crawling through the middle of the field; (its hard for a 280 pound guy to crawl let alone get shot by friendly fire)
3. I hate having a bunker that I can get shot through! Spray it all day until I am out because of continuous continual spray build up. Yes this can happen on ghetto speedball fields but at least I know which bunkers have holes and which ones don’t. Every pile of brush has holes through it.
4. Vermin on the woods fields; lets not forget the snakes hiding in the tires or brush or as you’re crawling through the weeds. You jump up to get the thing off of you but only to get shot by you opponents. Some people might get those big spiders around woods fields. (Sarcasm on)I just love running through a large spider web in a woods field!(Sarcasm off)
5. I hate how many woods-ballers are there to get their one kill for each game. They are not there to win the game but as long as they can get their one kill they are happy. I guess “to each his own“but come on! Please try to win the game! How many times have I been shot in a woods game by the guy waiting in the grass as we try to push a tape? Sure my buddy behind me gets him but what was that guy doing? Not trying to win the game, I guess; especial when time is running out. What is up with that?
6. I hate how it seems impossible some times to get people off the field with hits all over them. Referees have a hard time navigating rough terrain so sometimes getting a paint check is next to impossible with some woods field especially if there is a creek in the field. Since there is so much splatter on woods fields it seems that more people are inclined to stay in their bunker thinking that their hit is just splatter especially when hard/cheap field paint has a tendency not break very big.

Here is what I miss about woods:
1. I miss big fields. Even the woods seemed to be getting smaller. I miss the big fields of capture the flag where a tape could be a football field to each side of the middle of the field. I miss the big football field size of the old hyperball fields.
2. I miss the different games other than capture the flag and center flag.
3. I miss the crawling part of paintball.

[nate2k191]

I love both styles of play, woods and speed, i would prolly like wooded more if they made some sweet wooded fields. im picturing one in my head.. looks bad ***.i'd rather have a ton of fun paintballing then be on a team and be all pro and competitive and not have fun.

[nerobro]

If you're not crawling in speedball you're missing an imporant trick :-)

I still like woods ball. when I have 2-3 cases of paint to shoot, I LOVE woods ball. My biggest gripe is how much paint woods ball eats up. I need to do it more..... I've lost my ability to tree walk.

[nate2k191]

i usually use about the same paint per game when i play woods, i dont go thru more than a case by myself normally, but then again, my x-valve and ult will be here soon, and that may change

[Chojin Man]

Originally posted by nerobro
If you're not crawling in speedball you're missing an imporant trick :-)

I still like woods ball. when I have 2-3 cases of paint to shoot, I LOVE woods ball. My biggest gripe is how much paint woods ball eats up. I need to do it more..... I've lost my ability to tree walk.

what is tree walking?

[Severe]

Originally posted by Chojin Man


what is tree walking?

Since this is Tyger's thread, it's only fair to give his website a plug here.

This will answer that very question, and give you a much better idea of how to do it:

WebDogRadio Show 18 'Soft Cover' (http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/WDR20hi.wmv)

Btw, that's the hi-res version weighing in at 6.2meg.

Enjoy,

Steve

[Furby]

This is an old debate, but I like the stance Tyger is taking with it...like it or not, there are two main factions within the sport/hobby. The PB2X/Crossfire magazines are a case in point, and perhaps Josh doesn't want to admit the reality of the situation and move on. Obviously Mr. Amodea has. Don't get me wrong, it's not a slam on Josh...quite the opposite...I'd prefer that we were all one big happy family singing Koombayaa and then shooting each other, but the reality of the situation is that it is not. Right or Wrong, it's reality, and that's what we deal with.

That having been said, I'll second Tyger's motion that we stipulate that there's a sport of paintball and a hobby of paintball and move on.

For the record, I enjoy the sport and hobby. I don't discriminate...as long as I'm shooting at someone, I'm happy.

[Sir_Brass]

Originally posted by jayloo
The saying "different strokes for different folks" comes to mind here. But it seens not everyone has an open mind due to ego and the like.

Personally I do not like woods ball but if its that or nothin than woods ball it is.

I'm the same way, but about speedball. I personally don't like speedball, but if it's speedball or no paintball, then speedball it is.

I'd rather play paintball than not play paintball :).

[shartley]

Sport or hobby… interesting….

So, what makes one a sport and the other a hobby is the materials used as obstacles and the terrain those obstacles sit on? Or is it the uniformness of the playing field and obstacles?

I would argue that it takes similar skills to shoot around a TREE that it does to shoot around a brick wall, or a plastic bunker, or an inflatable bag. The only real difference is with an inflatable bag you can push your barrel into it.. which to me would be the same as if you drilled ports through wooden bunkers and stuck your barrel out of them.

Speedball is great and a fast passed game in the sport of paintball. It lends itself better to photography and spectator viewing. It also allows for a more symmetrical playing field. It is also easier to run and slide on than typical woods ball.

Woods ball is great and requires slightly different tactics than speedball, but can be just as fast paced IF those playing it WANT it to be. It is harder to run and slide because the typical woods ball field is irregular, has dips and rises, etc.

Which is a “sport” and which is a “hobby”? The one that gets better coverage by magazines? If a “trophy” is not involved at the end of the day, is it NOT a sport? So, when I take my kids out to the driveway and we play basketball, we are not participating in a “sport” because no one gets press coverage and we leave with nothing but a good time?

Scenario play is yet another type of game and differs from speed/woods ball… but again has similar equipment and goals.

To me the “sport” vs “hobby” debate is one only aimed to make those arguing it feel better about the type of game they play. We all use similar equipment, similar techniques, have similar goals, use the same paint, etc. Only the FIELD of play and “uniforms” tend to differ (and not always then either).

To me these debates are silly and really hold no water at all. That would be like saying that if I play pool at my home with my friends, and am still serious about my game, it really isn’t a “sport” unless I am on ESPN in a “real tournament”… regardless of my skill, or the fact that we are playing the same game.

I say EVERYONE who plays paintball, regardless of the type of game they play, is playing the SPORT. And there are levels within those games which only help to designate the LEVEL of play for that particular style of game, not whether it is a sport or not. A rec player is a rec player whether they play woods ball or speed ball… like it or not. You don’t suddenly become a better player because you changed your game type, nor does it mean that you stop playing the sport because you decided to play an alternate type of game within the wide range of paintball games.

There are also good and bad players in all styles of paintball play. There are also some who can move from one style to another and maintain high levels of skill, and those who are more suited to one style of play over another.

I also don’t like the arguments about “moving out of the woods”. Paintball has not moved out of anyplace, it has expanded into other types of play. When you move out of someplace, you LEAVE it. Paintball has seen an expansion, not a migration. And woods ball and pure rec play will continue to bring more people into the sport than any other type of play…. Why? Because it is more accessible to more people.

How many people played their first game of basketball (or were exposed to it) by playing on a driveway and a hoop put on a garage or telephone pole? What do folks think would happen if the ONLY place people could play basketball was on a regulation court? And are those playing basketball on their driveways playing less of the sport than someone who joins a gym and plays on a regulation court? And do their skills change depending on where they play? And as I stated above, are they NOT playing the sport simply because of the venue they are in, or not in?

No my friends, I think that paintball is a sport no matter what style of play you choose. And sports have many levels of play, from recreational to tournament. And those levels of play exist in just about every style of play. And within tournament play you have many levels as well, from amateur to professional. SPORT and HOBBY are not necessarily different things or can not be used to describe the same activity. HOBBY only indicates a person’s level of interest or participation in that sport, not that what they are doing is NOT a sport.

It’s all good… now get out and PLAY! :p ;) ;) :D

[sbpyro]

Woodsball or speedball. It doesn't need to be a choice. I started out playing woodsball. I have played speedball and not too bad for someone who doesn't like to have to run. But a bunch of guys that I know who are on speedball teams still like to get out in the woods and play some woodsball.
A really balanced player can go out and use the skills picked up from playing speedball in woodsball. There are also skills from woodsball that can translate over into speedball such as known where the opponent is without seeing them. People complain about wasting paint on both types of paintballing. I see it in speedball but that is because of covering while your teammates move. The same thing happens in woodsball, but occasionally you will have players shoot in a general direction since they do not know where exactly the paint is coming in from. (This was a tactic used in WWII, shoot to keep the enemy down while another group moved in on them and viceversa).
I think when it really comes down to it the only difference between woodsball and speedball is terrain.

[bryceeden]

I play and love both(I put scenario and woods ball together) even though I prefer speedball. That being said, I think its alot like the Mag/Cocker thing. It seems to be an internet problem and because on most net forums speedball is the cool thing people pretend that thats all they do. I have in one case been told by a person on the net that if you don't play speedball your not playing paintball, and should just sell all your gear and play Airsoft, a few weeks later rhis person came to my field, and when deciding what to play next he said speed ball sucks and theres no skill involved, and he wouldn't play unless it was woods ball. I don't think this is the only case where people want to look cool on the net, but are compleatly different in person.

[cledford]

I agree with Shartley's statement. Furthermore, when the "sport" of paintball started televised, professional level competitions used to take place exclusively in the woods - there were no speed ball fields then. Woodsball predates speedball by a number of years and if we're requiring professional teams, national leagues and tourneys, and television coverage to be considered a "sport" then woodsball was a sport before speedball was even thought of. There my not have been a lot of TV coverage - but it occurred from time to time.

All of this talk about sport vs. hobby, being taken "seriously", getting on "TV", going "main stream" all compels me to ask, to what end? What is missing? Where are we going that we haven't arrived yet? Especially with the younger crowd I see a movement to nowhere, because of the ambiguity (or complete lack of an idea) of what is to be achieved. There seems to be this mantra, "When we finally go legit all will be perfect." But what is legit/mainstream/accepted? We've got a multi-million dollar a year pastime, one which boasts international play on many levels of competition, companies exclusively and successfully dedicated sport, and thousands of sanction locations to play around the world. We've got paid professionals who fly around the WORLD to play, heroes and villains, tournament held in such exotic locals as Aruba, and even score boards now.

What exactly are we missing that we will get from "acceptance", "mainstream", and additional "coverage?"

Will prices go down any further? I think not, and I actually expect the equipment costs to start to rise. There is a saturation of competing products in the market right now and economics dictate that eventually that needs to change. Paint is also nearly at cost, field fees (given razor thin profits and huge insurance costs) are also pretty reasonable. There are (off the top of my head) 8 major paintball magazines in print - several internationally. At any one time at least 2 can be found on every news stand I visit. There is a huge online retail presence, every locality seems to have at least one "brick and mortar" and many areas have several field locations to choose from. (Heck, I've got 5 within an hours drive, 3 within 20 minutes...) Gear is now being sold in a NUMBER of large retailers - Wal-Mart, Dicks, Galyans, Sports Authority to name a few.

So what's left? What are we missing that it is necessary to say one style of play is holding back/hurting another. I'd like all of the guys who support speedball only or who think woods ball/scenario is hurting speedball to tell me 2 things:

1) Where is paintball going that it hasn't reached yet?

2) How is any stigma attached by the continued play in the woods preventing this from happening?

-Calvin

[werd]

Im sorry nate but thats sounds dumb

[MarkM]

I also began playing in the woods, and in my country this is still the introduction to paintball.
The media will tend to use sup-air pics as they are generally clearer but for people to moan about holes in barricades etc within a woods situation is rather short sighted..if you have a barricade like that then move or position yourself so you don't get hit.
A common assumption made by Speedball players is that you need more paint within the woods...to some extent they are correct but only because you have to actually aim to hit someone as that twig is always the one you hit...on a supair field they just shoot a rope of paint and zone it in..can't do that in the woods.
What you rarely see is people crawling on a supair field...strange as there are still crawling lanes on a great many field setups.
In todays world with the super fast electro and mechanical markers (they are generally quicker than the first incarnations) you will always get people talking in a negative way about woods and the same in reverse.
I am not saying you need to play woods to understand how the game has evolved but you do need to be aware that if it wasn't for the woods then speedball would not exist.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Alls I have to say is that I loved paintball WAY before speedball fields were erected, though I'm not sure I'll love paintball after the push to legitimize it as a "sport" is over.

I dont think that all the bad behaviour on and around the speedball field has any better impact on the game than the "mil-sim" woodsballers.

I personally could care less if speedball dissapeared. Take me back to the trenches!

[cledford]

Originally posted by spleefstylez
Alls I have to say is that I loved paintball WAY before speedball fields were erected, though I'm not sure I'll love paintball after the push to legitimize it as a "sport" is over.

I dont think that all the bad behaviour on and around the speedball field has any better impact on the game than the "mil-sim" woodsballers.


Excellent point - I NEVER saw most of what goes on today 7 or 8 years ago. Heck even walk-on speedball players are cheating like the pros these days :(

-Calvin

[Sir_Brass]

what's wrong with milsim? It's just another style of play, just like speedball, woodsball, and scenario. Personally, I'd LOVE to play pball with a mil-sim team if I ever get the chance.

[Fixion]

I like all kinds o paintball, that includes woods, AND woods with pump guns!

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Originally posted by Faultie
One question I got is why the sudden move away from the older idea of the "national survival game" and the military aspects. I'm not a die-hard scenario gamer, I play speed or woods, whatever, but I just wanna know why people who get vulgar, threaten others, and down-others for their likes and dislikes want to distance themselves from the idea of violence in their sport? Another question is what's wrong with the violence/military idea? Killing games are the #1 sellers in video games, movies with killing and battles are #1, and most comic books/fiction books are violent/war-type things. If it's okay for games, movies, etc. to be associated w/ violence (especially on the level of GTA and GTA: Vice City), then why is it not okay for paintball? Hrm...go fig. Either way, I'd say most of the people making these statements are 13yrs old (+/- a few years) and that's just how 8th graders are. We are all that age once, and we all know how it is.
-Andrew

I mostly play in the woods, and wear some camouflage, but I don't want paintball to have a military or violent image. What's wrong with the violence/military idea of paintball is that it frightens the ignorant public, and can lead to very restrictive laws and regulations. Look at Australia - they can't import a semi-auto pball marker, and in some states aren't even allowed to keep their equipment in their own homes.

There has been a lot of noise about video games and movies, and a rating system was emplaced for them. But no one is driving down the street and taking someone's eye out with a video game. We are much more vulnerable to that sort of renegade behaviour.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by Methylphenidate
ok you all might not agree with me on this but here is my two cents on the speedball woodball debate. and i will give my reasoning.

speed ball all the way. speed ball is the only way that paintball will ever be moved from the the catogory of activity to the category of an actual sport in the eyes of the general public.(i.e. people who are not familiar with the game). and it has nothing to do with being on television or fame.
speed ball is a sport because it requires things that all other sports do. things like skill, practice, strategy. no one walks on to a speed ball field and is immediatly olie lang. just as no one steps on to a basketball court and is micheal jordan. yes some people have this thing called natural talent that gives them a considerable edge over other, but you cant just jump in the ring with ali because you think you box.

where in wood ball sure there is some strategy but for the most part it comes out to luck of the draw, as my friends say anything and everything can happen in wood ball. and you can be a totall newb with no experience and still kill the best player that has been playing for years, why because you went to walmart bought a plastic bush duct taped it to your back and hid in a ditch while you waited for someone to come by. tell me where is the skill in that.
how did he practice and study and refine his game to dress up like a bush and shoot people as they walk by. that is not a sport my friend that is a hobby.


I can tell this was written by a person who never truly played a woodsball game. Does this mean that in 2001 when the IAO was played in the woods that any team that walked on that field had a better chance against their opponent than they do in hyper/air ball? If so, you are mistaken.

[minimagjim]

about speedball vs. woodsball skill or the lack of that is required to play.

well all i got to say is that these two types challenge us in different ways.

Woodsball, usually people are wearing camo or ghillies or some dark blending color to not be noticed by the other team. Also in this type of play stealth and precise shots are very important. Almost everyone is equal when it comes to pumps, to mechs, to e-guns. If a guy is hiding and you pass him up and he shoots you in the back your e-gun is just a prop in a movie. This type of play stresses these things its not just who can shoot or run the fastest its more the whole experience of playing that way. You have many abilities being tested each time you play.

Speedball, camo is not important, but i feel you almost need a jersey or cool pants. If not you show up with camo pants, same you use for woodsball, and are mocked. thats at least how it was with me. Speedballers will not take you seriously unless you walk the walk, talk the talk, and wear cool pants. However, other things are stressed in speedball. You got to shoot fast and where it counts and make real fast decisions, and usually have to stay tight and agile through out the game.

In both games the objective is the same NOT GET SHOT and SHOOT THE OTHER GUY as well as get the flag or whatever. The only thing different is how we play. Woodsball stresses certain skills and so does speedball.

not that one side is right or wrong nor is one side less skilled than the other. Speedballers play speedball good and woodsballers play woodsball good.

what should be stressed is tolerance for the other side. If you got a friend whos only into speedball, cool, thats fine. Or you meet a bunch of people on your field that are used to a certain type of play dont bash them for it cause they arent used to your fields way. You should help them out or respect their differences.

alright thanks for reading my little rant im always open for debate and suggestion i kinda worte this thing fast so i may have left something out...

[Severe]

I really do not see why people are down on players wanting to embrace the "Mil-Sim" aspect of paintball. It seems perfectly natural for someone to wear BDU's who sole purpose to is to be playing in the woods to want a tactical looking marker. Why does everyone think that Tippmann sells so well?

Speaking of which, it would be interesting to see how the Speedball vs. Woods Play debate would play out on some of the Tippmann forums, where the large majority of players play ONLY woodsball.

If someone wants to dress like Patton with an MP5 stylized marker and carrying 1000 rounds of blue breaks pink paint...SO BE IT! If they want to dress like the Arizona state flag with a purple and red marker and carrying 2000 rounds of blue breaks pink, the more power to them also!

...can't we all just have fun?

[Gunga]

Originally posted by minimagjim
Speedball, camo is not important, but i feel you almost need a jersey or cool pants. If not you show up with camo pants, same you use for woodsball, and are mocked. Speedballers will not take you seriously unless you walk the walk, talk the talk, and wear cool pants.

Bah. Who cares what so and so thinks of what you're wearing? They soon won't care if you light 'em up at their game of choice. :)

This whole clothing thing annoys me. Personally, I wear BDU's and a t-shirt (usually black or green). I never have owned paintball pants, and the only jersies I have are the two I got at Shatnerball I & II. Haven't worn those jersies since.

Camos certainly help out on a woods field, and they don't hurt you on a speedball field. Whereas a yellow/blue/pink/whatever jersey also don't help you out at all on a speedball field, but they damn sure well shout 'here i am! Shoot me!' on a woods field. But if I don't wear a jersey, I'm not 'cool'. :rolleyes:

Function over form for me. Maybe it's just that I'm getting old and don't care what the paintball fashion police think of how I dress.

And for all those politically correct types who want to get rid of paintball's militaristic/violent image, you're just wasting your time. We use guns. We shoot at people. Intentionally. And with malicious purpose sometimes (e.g. intentionally bonusballing someone).

Go play lasertag. Or use squirtguns. Oh wait. You can't. Both of those use guns too. :rolleyes: You might as well try to get the NFL to stop people from tackling one another because it's violent.

Well...back onto the topic of the thread (what a concept!), I like both speed & woods ball. Here's my pros and cons of both.

Speedball

Pros:
Easier to keep track of where the opponents are
Spectator friendly


Cons:
Higher paint usage (more expensive to play)
ROF is a big factor
Fewer places to hide/less movement around the field



Woods

Pros:
Generally bigger fields
More bunkers (combined with the bigger field makes it easier to move around, and harder for people to find me)
You can be sneakier
Less paint usage (cheaper)
ROF isn't as big of a factor
Shady (nice on a hot summer day)


Cons:
Mosquitos
PITA to find people to shoot sometimes (scenario games)

Damn. I think that was my longest post ever. :D

[bokraham]

I love speed ball and woods ball, but not as much. I like speed ball much more because I know what is going on. In the woods I'm all hiding behind a bush when 5 shot come out of nowhere, also woods games are made for people that like to play the back, and I play front, see the conflict. oh well Woods is paintball and there fore fun fun fun.

[rx2]

IN regards to the original question, the only thing it comes down to is ego. My dad can beat up your dad. I see it happen with everything that a person can associate himself with, or choose (such as with markers). Many people are afraid. They are afraid and insecure. As such, when you ask them why they choose a certain way, rather than simply explain that they prefer it, they cite all sorts of reasons why it is the only "right" way, and that every other choice is wrong. They not only need to justify, but they feel the need to place themselves higher, as well.

Again, let me use markers as a parallel. Marker "A" and marker "B" perform similarly in nearly every aspect. Ask the owner of marker A why he didn't choose B, and you will find that often he will lambast and berate marker B, and those who would choose to own it. If more people happen to own B, then the image of marker A will take a hit, until everyone but hardcore fans will even consider marker A.

The same happens with everything, really. I am a musician, and I find that if you take two guitars that are essentially the same, someone who owns one and not the other will tear apart the one they don't own, finding every little immaterial flaw, and magnifying it. For all intents, it is exactly the same. They, however, don't care, and can magically conjure up all sorts of problems.

So it is with paintball style. Those who play speedball, etc., do so most likely because they enjoy it. But, some aren't willing to admit that it is just preference, and need to try and justify it so that they may be held in higher esteem, and can be part of a "better" group. Woodsballers can be the same, finding all sorts of arguments that make them seem individually superior, and part of a superior group. As woodsball has waned in popularity due to familiarity, it has more "opponents" who cause a snowball of other haters, and more animosity. If and when the current "in" formats wane, you will see the same treament with those.

Yes, that is it, I think. Many are not happy simply fulfilling their own whims, whilst casting off the judgement of others. They have a need to feel superior, and thus create illusions that allow them to feel superior.

I loathe the day that I need to justify my personal choices in something so inconsequential to the outcome of my life as style of play in paintball in the non-competetive arena.

And, for reference, I play any style I can. I am just happy to be out playing, although I prefer speedball, etc., to woods.

[Magluvr]

Originally posted by Methylphenidate
speed ball all the way. speed ball is the only way that paintball will ever be moved from the the catogory of activity to the category of an actual sport in the eyes of the general public.(i.e. people who are not familiar with the game). and it has nothing to do with being on television or fame.[/Q]

Addressing some points: (Know that this is not a "tu quoque" argument and if it appears so please excuse the poor writing.)

If it has nothing to do with television then how does speed ball spread to the masses any better than woodsball. I can only see it spreading more rapidly because it is soooo much more visible with tv and the like.
If it really bugs you, consider us like the people who play basketball at their house. Sure the court is nothing like the pro ones, no lines, much smaller, etc...
In this aspect I challenge any of you to find 5 woods ball games that are not set up with very strict rules, boundaries, you will see that all in all we are very ordered like speedballers.

Originally posted by Methylphenidate

speed ball is a sport because it requires things that all other sports do. things like skill, practice, strategy....
where in wood ball sure there is some strategy but for the most part it comes out to luck of the draw, as my friends say anything and everything can happen in wood ball.

Woodsball actually requires greater skill than speedball in many ways. Woodsball does require skill, practice, strategy. You have to go far enough that you can handle any punch thrown at you. You don't know exactly where someone might be hiding, if they cheated and went outside the boundaries. You learn to think beyond the box. Your skills aren't limited to strictly the field limits. Essentially, you learn how to work a field good and then learn how to deal with surprises.
Strategy, eh? Well I can tell you something... My friends dad never has lost a game of paintball, ever! Why? He uses strategies, everyone one of us uses strategies as well, and face to face anyone of us could kill him. However, he honed his strategies so much in the army that he can't be beat. Don't let anyone fool you, skills, practice, and strategy are crucial elements to woodsball.

Originally posted by Methylphenidate
and you can be a totall newb with no experience and still kill the best player that has been playing for years, why because you went to walmart bought a plastic bush duct taped it to your back and hid in a ditch while you waited for someone to come by. tell me where is the skill in that.

Not true at all! I tell you true that non-newb may have played many times but that doesn't make him a good player. (Don't make connections where you can't prove they exist!) Like I was saying years of playing doesn't make someone good at paintball. Take me for example, I have played paintball for about 6 years now. For the first 4 years I played every weekend, but I wasn't a good player. I was one of the worst players on the field, especially considering how much time I put into it. It has only been in the last two years that I have actually started becoming a better player. (I'm still not that great either)

To answer the question bluntly. There is no skill in that, and there is no skill in that other player either, despite his "years" of experience. Any good woodsballer would not have been fooled, and they WOULD have eliminated the novice.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Methylphenidate

how did he practice and study and refine his game to dress up like a bush and shoot people as they walk by. that is not a sport my friend that is a hobby.

This last little tid bit of yours is irrelevant once you have read the articles, and you realize the err. And don't even think to say, "I don't believe anything you just said". Because its not a matter of belief; it is a fact! And facts can only be accepted or rejected, not believed.

[Magluvr]

Please don't miss understand me either. I am not pro speedball, I am not pro woodsball; I am pro-paintball.

I would simply like in my last post to have touched that woodsball is not inferior to speedball.

Both are great types of paintball, each has different skill emphases, neither one will lack a skill required in the other. One will simply emphasize certain aspects of those skills over other skills.

[Duck Hunt]

The field that I play at has more woodsball than speedball fields. They have 2 airbag fields and one barrel field. Then theres about 10 woodsball fields and a village field. I personally love both styles of play because the require different thinking, I love variety. I have bunkered many an opponent with a stock tippmann 98, and yes even a prolite when I rented, because I had some skill (not trying to brag =) Buuuuuut, I now use an E marker as easily in speedball and in woodsball. I can't really choose which I like better, I love stalking around in the woods and being as quite as possible. Theres nothing like circle the field and sneaking up behind the opposite team and nailing the in the butts =) But then theres nothing like hearing that whistle blow and sprinting to your bunker while paint flies allllllll over the place.

Now heres my gripe. My sports intrests are limited. Its been, Hockey untill my Bruins traded everyone good on they're team, I have always loved Nascar, buuuuuut it has become very "commercial" you could say. And then theres paintball. Paintball is a sport:

Sport - Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.

An active pastime; recreation.

You play play football in an open field and its a sport, you can play basketball in a driveway and its a sport, you can play bass ball in your house with pillows =) and its a sport, you can play paintball in the woods its still a sport.

A SPORT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ON TV WITH MAJOR SPONSERS AND RUDE PLAYERS TO BE A SPORT.

The problem is not making paintball look like a sport to the majority who doesn't know, its making the majority realize that paintball IS a sport.

Thats my 2 cents.

Sean "Duck Hunt"

[Evil1]

I personally prefer speedball type games, but it is really alot of fun to play in the woods some times, especially when you have alot of people playing.

[fallout11]

Funny that this discussion should come up.

Anybody watch the Discovery Channel's show "Tactical to Practical" recently?

According to the show (translation: the general public's perception), Paintball (and Airsoft, too) evolved directly from the US military's tactical training exercises ("war games", with Miles gear).

They then showed both, with the paintball portion being a speedball game featuring San Francisco area players in brightly colored gear, and then proclaimed that paintball was practically the same thing as Army war games.

Hmmm....

This is a perfect illustration that from John. Q. Public's perception:
1) Woods games or speedball, doesn't matter.
2) Mil-sim looking "guns" versus brightly colored e-markers, doesn't matter.
It's all "playing war", either way.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Thing is, at a few of my local fields, they only staff enough refs for the speedball fields, and even when they DO have enough refs to go out to the woodsball fields, they rarely gravitate in that direction.

Woe is the field that disownes the players of old.

It almost seems that if I want to play on Sat/Sun its speedball or nothing. I blame this first on the team kiddies most fields use for refs on the weekends. I have actually got made fun of by this ~14 year old ref for wanting to play a few games of woodsball (I'm 22). I hate the feeling that some of the better fields are now "team fields", and if your not down to "practice" with the local homefield hosers, then you are not welcome.



Just my 2 cents.

[Creative Mayhem]

Tyger, we're playing where? Lemme grab my pack, I'm down... :D

[Wes Janson]

Before I say anything else, I'd like to point out my backround. My very first game ever was in an overgrown lot behind a store, with a half dozen friends using BE semis. It's entirely possible that I've never had as much fun since then as I did on that day. My local field and home base, Hi-Tech, seems to be an interesting combination of the opposing outlooks here. There is a complete supair field in the back of the property, and a new hyperball field being constructed, but the single most popular field is a low-tech speedball court. The bunkers are just plywood boards stuck together in + shapes, with a dozen or so oak trees around the field providing cover and shade. The ground is not 100% flat, nor is there any vine growth. Some of the other fields nearby use a more wooded approach, with a dozen or two bunkers, berms, palmetto bushes, creeks, and log piles for cover. Honestly, I don't really care what field I'm on so long as it isn't uncomfortable to play. The debate doesn't make much sense to me. But I'll try to field some guesses. Anyways:


At risk of generalizing and stereotyping, there is a major difference to be noted between woodsball and speedball and their origins. Woodsball was, is, and will continue to be respectful and aware of it's militaristic roots. Scenario games frequently recreate famous battles, and a fair number of players are veterans. To such a group, one's coolness is not considered as a factor for acceptance. Skill and maturity earn respect more than gear does. How many times have you seen someone with a low-end pump inspire fear and respect not from the flashiness of their gear, but from their skill and experience playing? I recall one player at my local field who went out using a rental gun, the same rental that most of us referred to as a melee weapon, and a ghillie suit. After a single game he gained respect from everyone because of his ability to sit and snipe player after player without ever being spotted. The military types who are commonly found at scenario games do not care what the latest air tank is, or who won the World Cup. It may be an overgeneralization, but I've seen a distinct difference in what it takes to be accepted at woodsball, and it is generally a set of values about how one should play the game, and how one should act.

On the other hand, speedball does not seem to possess the same "respect for one's elders" that I see in woodsball. There is respect for the "big dog", but not for the veterans-because from everything I've seen, speedball does not seem to attract the older players as much. Speedball seems to be a teenager's game, with teenage values. This is not for all speedballers, but for a significant percentage that seperates it from woodsball. Compared statistically, and in terms of media (both in-sport and out) attention, it seems to me that speedballers would likely be found to be more likely to be in the 15-30 range. To be fair, some older players may like speedball, may play or coach it, but it's a younger person's game. And while it may not yet be an official Olympic sport, it's trying hard to possess the same elements of coolness of other things, that attract teenagers. How many guns are made and sold solely on the basis that it's got a new name and a new anno job, thus it must be the best marker/it's vital to own one if you wish to be cool? Put another way, in the woods the purpose of most gear is to avoid being seen. In speedball, the opposite is true.

I honestly don't think paintball has much to worry about from activist groups as some fear. The industry is already becoming entrenched, as manufacturers carve niches for themselves and accumulate financial power. With a dozen periodicals, probably close to ten million players, and global participation in the sport, getting rid of paintball would be an incredibly difficult task for anyone. While my previous posts may have given a different impression, I don't feel we need to worry about the sort of restrictions Australia and the United Kingdom are subject to, because this is the United States. Our rights are strongest here than anywhere else, and it would take monumental public hatred of paintball to force the creation of laws restricting the game. Image be damned, I've yet to see a well-organized, well-educated anti-paintball group yet. Let us consider Airsoft to be our canary: we should consider its reception by the public to its realistic weaponry. As for now, the sport is going strong and continues to grow. Woodsball or speedball, both are good so long as they remain within the boundaries of sportmanship and safety.

[cledford]

Originally posted by Wes Janson
At risk of generalizing and stereotyping, there is a major difference to be noted between woodsball and speedball and their origins. Woodsball was, is, and will continue to be respectful and aware of it's militaristic roots. Scenario games recreate famous battles, and a fair number of players are veterans. To such a group, one's coolness is not considered as a factor for acceptance. Skill and maturity earn respect more than gear does.

The military types who are commonly found at scenario games do not care what the latest air tank is, or who won the World Cup. It may be an overgeneralization, but I've seen a distinct difference in what it takes to be accepted at woodsball, and it is generally a set of values about how one should play the game, and how one should act.
On the other hand, speedball does not seem to possess the same "respect for one's elders" that I see in woodsball. There is respect for the "big dog", but not for the veterans-because from everything I've seen, speedball does not seem to attract the older players as much. Speedball seems to be a teenager's game, with teenage values. This is not for all speedballers, but for a significant percentage that seperates it from woodsball. Compared statistically, and in terms of media (both in-sport and out) attention, it seems to me that speedballers would likely be found to be more likely to be in the 15-30 range. I will continue this later.


Best post I've seen yet - hit the nail on the head. I'd say speedball was a "punks game" but I like it too :) I will say that pro paintball is disgusting to me and does not reflect ANYTHING I ever want to be associated with - which is sad.

-Calvin

[GatoLoco]

Personally, I go at it like a trumpet player would look at it different varieties of music. A player can enjoy classical music the most, as it is very challenging in the technique and prestine tone involved, and they just love the sound of it. That same player can still love jazz for its beautiful unpredictability, sheer range involved, and the "dance" energy involved. This player can also like to dabble in musical theater pit playing, as it can determine the mood of the actors and the audience. The person may also enjoy playing carnaval and wind ensemble music, however to an extent, as they may find the genre to be a little unvaried. And then again there may be the genre that they absolutly hate, such as ska. They hate ska for the lack of technique, tone, and difficulty involved. Others may love ska, but they are completely against it.

Does this mean that just because the player loves classical the most, he will only play classical? Of course not! He may not like the others as much, but still love them and love playing them, but won't think twice about saying no to ska.

It is the same with a paintball player. If somebody likes airball the best, should they never play woodsball? Should they steer clear of hyperball? Should they run at the first sight of a concept field with a large otter bunker in the middle? Of course not! However they may despise playing in a scenario because they feel it is simply too crowded.

What I am trying to say here is that too many forums are litered with people going at eachothers throtes over "Go play rec ball you Jn00b3" and "Go spray you're no talent marker that you're daddy bought you, you skill-less taco-turd!" People need to relax and realize that different people like different things. They should also realize that like music, there are many variants on the same idea, some seemingly changing the game. So go out and try some of these "jn00b13 woods" or "4 year old with a machine gun" games. Who knows, you might (gasp) like it, or at least see it as an escape to break your trend.

Ps. keep in mind that like different types of music, by playing different types of paintball, you learn things that will help you in your "normal" playing.

[Tyger]

Thing is... Last Friday I wanted to play 'ball. I had no money, but a lot of leftover paint for this indoor field. So, I played stock class (I know, I know, AGD sponsors the show and me... But the E-mag is a monster to feed....)

Anyhow, Playing SC I found myself as a prime target. Why? I was playing SC, and holding my own. I didn't get to play enough to really get a good feel, as Az twisted his ankle and decided that getting it looked at would be a good idea. (Sorry Az!!!) But it demonstrates a little of the principle Wes was talking about.

I still think it's disturbing that the "public face" of paintball wants to completely disown the heritage and the roots of the game. For what it's worth, I still think the IAO sold out when they went all airball. But that's me.

Here's a thought. Could it be that they're all trying to disown it becasue they, in fact, have never PLAYED in woods? Someone told me that we're approaching a time in which som players have never stepped into a pair of cammos, let alone into a woods. Could it just be that?

IMHO, there's a LOT of room for woods and speedball. There's a lot of fields that hybrid, and have wooded speedball courses. I personally would rather just play. Grab a "whatever" and go have fun. I prefer the woods, but in January, on Friday night, I'll take the airball. :)

I have one more theory too, about all this. Tongue in cheek. A lot of he 'old guard' in X-Ball cut their teeth in the woods back in the mid to early 90's. But they're all playing arenas now. I think I've got it figured out too. They don't want to hike those big fields. They don't want to run 200 yards from flag to flag, and slam on the ground while grabbing the flag. (hee hee hee hee....) :D

-Tyger

[Wes Janson]

Before I edit my above post to continue my thoughts, I just wanted to make a random comment..

I don't understand anti-camo.

I fully understand that some people may not be able to afford decent, appropriately-colored camoflauge pants and a shirt. And I fully appreciate that some people may not ever get into a situation (woodsball) which requires camo. But for the absolute life of me, I cannot understand why some people who have the money, the opportunity, and the need for good concealment not only ignore it, but seem to openly scorn logic by going out into the woods wearing bright, primary-colors shirts, pants, hats, masks, etc. To be honest, my 'mag is bright, shiny, and visible. But I never go out without camo, and many times I find myself cursing the giant target my gun makes.

There's an example that keeps popping into my head of of this principle. We were playing a good-sized, ~40 person game at the local field, on a decently-wooded course with a creek, lots of brush, and a half dozen large bunkers or so. My dad and I moved up the right side following the side road, with some other people near us. As my father overeagerly rushed into a strand of palmettos, he got nailed by an unseen person on the other side. I lied down onto a small berm, and watched the palmettos a couple dozen yards from me. Something was bugging me, but I wasn't sure what. After a minute or two, I spotted a splotch of bright blue down on the ground, underneath some palmettos. Drawn in by the sight, I wondered if someone had dropped a condom or a pod perhaps; something I should go pick up. As I looked, I saw the blue spot move side to side, and then jiggle a little bit. Sighting in, I finally identified it as a blue bandana behind an enemy player's mask. It only took three or four shots to penetrate the scrub and nail him, from which point I moved up and past and we continued our advance.

It's only logical to wear camoflauge or dark colors when playing woodsball. This is an inevitable part of the sport. Even speedballers might benefit from duller colors on themselves and their gear. Yet a vast percentage of people forgo concealment intentionally, intent on looking "cool" on the field. Without being judgemental, it occurs to me that the point of paintballing is to shoot other players and avoid being shot, for the purpose of having fun. Perhaps more players will learn in the future that the "bling bling" factor really starts to suck on the field when it turns into the "target sighted" factor.

EDIT: One of these days I'll remember to do that enter-button thing while typing the post.

[punkncat]

I started playing paintball in the woods, like many others have.I really enjoyed getting out and "hunting" my buds through the woods.After a while I started into the rec-ball scene.Really just to be able to get more game in less time.I enjoy both types of play, but really for different reasons.
I generally play woods ball on privately owned land , or in a scenario.Either way its great to hang out or camp with the very mixed variety of players that you run across in these types of evironments.No doubt there is a tendency towards "noobs" in the woodsball/scenario scene, but the "sit and wait" factor mentioned earlier has an equalizing effect for those of us with more experiance or bravado.
I think it fairly neat to see all the different scenario oriented gear that you see at these woodsball events.People really take time and care to mask their outline with camo/guillie suits.Put the detail into making their marker look the part.You have to admit , its quite impressive to see some tac-vested,green beret looking,squad member getting into his game.
However , given my druthers I will play rec ball.It is a faster paced game, with a quicker turn around.The tendency is to more experianced players in the games.There is no way to get better unless you are playing ball with people considerably better than yourself.
The learning curve accelerates quite a bit when you are getting your (rear) handed to you.I have learned skills in speedball over the course of a few games , that woodsballers who have played for years havent picked up yet.I may not be able to creep and crawl like some of them , but faced in a firefight and I would rather have the calm in a storm experiance you get from speedball.

As far as Camo is concerned , I wear it always.Its cheap , its comfortable , and works wonderfully.I have just never cared to spend big bucks on paintball clothes that do me no good in the woods.I don't mind looking redneck at the speedball field wearing my hobo looking surplus clothes.

Merged your thread with this one if you didn't notice. :p

Gunga

[elpimpo]

sorry to break it but nobody really cares this has been a drawn out subject its starting to get a little gay and plus we all know that x ball is the ruler of the paintball world

[Wes Janson]

Crazy cat, there are other threads already on this forum, in fact, already on this page, that address the issue. You're more likely to recieve *ahem* reasonable responses there, as well as read things that you may find interesting and insightful.

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Tyger


Here's a thought. Could it be that they're all trying to disown it becasue they, in fact, have never PLAYED in woods?
-Tyger

I believe I said that 3 pages ago. I still think its a valid assumption, particularly with the massive media coverage devoted to the tournament side.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Brophog


I believe I said that 3 pages ago. I still think its a valid assumption, particularly with the massive media coverage devoted to the tournament side.

I just cna't believe that the answers are just that easy tho. I can't believe it's only about fear of a buised ego and fear of the unknown.

-Tyger

[Gunga]

Originally posted by Tyger
I can't believe it's only about fear of a buised ego and fear of the unknown.

-Tyger

They're just scared of spiders. :p And Spyders. :D

[shartley]

Originally posted by Gunga


They're just scared of spiders. :p And Spyders. :D
LOL This is classic.

But sooooo true at times. There is less wounded pride being shot out by a player with a $1000+ marker than it is by some 14 year old with a TL Plus or rented Tippmann. ;);)

[Severe]

I think the whole, "...never have PLAYED in the woods.." thing has a lot merit. But I think it's more than paintball.

I play at a medium sizee woods-exclusive field in central North Carolina. It's not exactly the big city, but it never ceases to amaze me when I hear kids (anyone younger than me) say that they've never BEEN in the woods. Much less played in them for an extended amount of time.

I guess that's a product of the high density housing communities and computers. I'm also an avid gamer and just about every kid out there relates to gaming. I don't think nearly as many kids actually get out and get dirty in the 'woods' anymore. Where as some of the 'veteran' players I know grew up playing in them daily.

There is a definite disparity in the comfort level people have in the woods....those who have grown up in and around them and those who have only looked at them. Perhaps the camo discussion relates to this as well.

Steve

[cledford]

What REALLY bothers me about the camo thing is that people really feel that it give the sport a bad image. That perception is here to some extent, and is HUGE in the EU. As I stated earlier - it doesn't help when the DYEs of the world fuel this perception to sell more "colorful" items of apparel.

-Calvin

[shartley]

Originally posted by cledford
What REALLY bothers me about the camo thing is that people really feel that it give the sport a bad image. That perception is here to some extent, and is HUGE in the EU. As I stated earlier - it doesn't help when the DYEs of the world fuel this perception to sell more "colorful" items of apparel.

-Calvin
I think the anti-camo thing is just to complain about something. Honestly…. Take a look at ANY rec-field. Take a look at the AO Day(s) pictures. I think you will find that camo is quite prevalent…. as is t-shirts, sweatshirts, and even jeans. And these are worn in EVERY style of play.

Sure, I think that when you compete in a tournament, or special event, it is good to “look the part”, or wear “the uniform”. And even more if you are a Professional, or part of an official “team”. But that is really a VERY small part of the sport in general.... like it or not folks.

Want to know what gives paintball a bad name? Attitudes and actions! Not what folks wear or shoot. And this is also what gives paintball a GOOD name too. It is just too bad that those with bad attitudes and actions tend to be more visible than the rest…. But some of us do everything we can to correct this.

[Pstan]

On the CAMO issue.........I've always thought it would be cool if one of the better known teams (Speedball) would just call and ask Toxey Haas......the owner of Mossy Oak brand camo......for a Sponsorship on clothing. I think it would be hilariously funny to see an X-ball team in camo. Better yet, they wear all camo except for a headband of some color like bright yellow.........that way they would be the complete opposite of other teams. LOL


Seriously though.......there's a great deal of money in the camo industry. And, if you actually got one of the larger manufacturers involved you would in turn get the others. That's good for paintball in general no matter what you play. Bring new money in.....dont push it away. I can envision some really good "Big Game" scenario situations pitting Mossy Oak against Realtree. Tom should send guys like Toxey Haas and Bill Jordon Tac-1's and get them hooked on the game.


Note: this wasnt meant as a "highjack" on this thread. If mods feel it's worthy of a new thread/discussion....move it.

[cledford]

Good last post and suggestion...

-Calvin

[Wes Janson]

I play at a medium sizee woods-exclusive field in central North Carolina. It's not exactly the big city, but it never ceases to amaze me when I hear kids (anyone younger than me) say that they've never BEEN in the woods. Much less played in them for an extended amount of time.

I guess that's a product of the high density housing communities and computers. I'm also an avid gamer and just about every kid out there relates to gaming. I don't think nearly as many kids actually get out and get dirty in the 'woods' anymore. Where as some of the 'veteran' players I know grew up playing in them daily.

There is a definite disparity in the comfort level people have in the woods....those who have grown up in and around them and those who have only looked at them. Perhaps the camo discussion relates to this as well.

I suppose so..personally I can't even comprehend being uncomfortable around/in woods. I have my limits, sure..you'll have a hard time getting me to crawl through really thick brush, but I can't understand a dislike of the wilderness. Then again, perhaps they simply don't appreciate the outdoors. Personally I'd find it amusing to see a scenario game between recballers and speedballers. Might help woodsball a bit, too.

[fallout11]

Originally posted by Wes Janson

...Personally I'd find it amusing to see a scenario game between recballers and speedballers. Might help woodsball a bit, too.

Hey, that sounds like a lot of fun. I'd be up for that. Good idea, Wes!

[Meph]

I think we found the culprit that is causing all these problems Tyger......








http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/apg01.jpg

[NIghtStalker001]

I like the mix between woods and speedball which is city play.I love structures like rooms and hallways,anybody played in that prison at fort ord.I love taking tournament type players out while wearing my camo jersy.We in fact won a tournament while wearing old school renegade jerseys,all the others teams lauphed and snicked when we first got there.but once the games started going and we started winning we shut all there mouths by are play,it was seariously funny.took fist place.Its all about playing ball any time any where.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Originally posted by Wes Janson
...
Let us consider Airsoft to be our canary: we should consider its reception by the public to its realistic weaponry. As for now, the sport is going strong and continues to grow. Woodsball or speedball, both are good so long as they remain within the boundaries of sportmanship and safety.

Good insight.

[fallout11]

Great post, Meph!

Wow, that cover takes me back....(like back to when APG was a decent magazine).

Thanks for the flashback!