nppl cap rule?

[rikkter]

i just got wind that either in the mid of 2004 season, or the start of the 2005 season, than NPPL is gonna have a 14bps cap.

anyone else hear about this or no?

[tony3]

no need for a halo anymore lol, i think its a great idea

[barberjohn]

great idea! man, i was getting sick of all this talk over shooting past like 20 bps and stuff, i mean, i bunkered three people in one game with my NON-ELECTRO mag this weekend, so speed doesnt really help that much. the only thing i can see wrong with it is that the back men will not be able to shoot cases of paint each game, and the paint suppliers will go down in sales:D .

[tony3]

well technically if a backman shot 14 bps and the game last 5 minutes a back guy could shoot 4200 rds:), but then again he would also need a 4200 rd hopper, because you would have to take in reloading times

[coolcatpete]

I dont know if this will happen or not because, We have to think of every gun that that has a higher cap than 14, what will they do buy a new gun. Will nppl offer a flash for every kind of marker. what about those mech markers that can go over 14bps ex) Z-man rt-pro, Nicad cocker/mag.
This would cost a crap load of money and time to do this, not to mention a pain in the but. I would love to see this happen but, I dought it will.
Sorry guy/girls Pete.

[Hey Its Vo]

if the cap rule was true, all you have to do is get the good ol revy outta the gear bag and slap it on,

[Zumina]

yah, it's for the better. The paintball arms-race really irritates me.

[Resist148]

Yup now if only fields would enforce it too. Getting tired of being overshot by a 13 year old with debounce 1 on his timmy.

[-=Squid=-]

I will be super pissed if this happens. What would be the point? Paintball is fine the way it is.

[Zumina]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
I will be super pissed if this happens. What would be the point? Paintball is fine the way it is.

Skill and tactics over volume.

[Quickling]

Skill and tactics over volume.

I second that!

January 4th 2003- Rabid Squirrels, an all pump team, place 6th out of 17 teams in a local open class tournament. 4 teams were novice, ~4 more rookie, the rest beginner.

But we were the only mechanical markers... so if BPS wins the day we never should have gotten so far. I think that a bps cap is a good thing, too many people now think its cool to lay out long strings and over shoot.

Most people hate being overshot but I still hear kids laugh and congradulate each other when they light someone up bad.

[Lohman446]

So... how does one cap a mechanical marker? Are they banned by such a rule?

[ProX9]

maybe theyll make an angel only class and then there wont be any problems with guns shooting to fast. Seriously though they cant limit bps, because most guns dont have a bps limit feature on them so I think any major player would ditch the nppl and play in some other league. I also congragulate(sp) people who reallly light people up as long as they didnt do it on purpose, for example someone tried to do a run by bunkering on me and took 15 balls in the side because he ran with my bead i felt no sorrow because it was either him or me.

[rikkter]

Originally posted by ProX9
maybe theyll make an angel only class and then there wont be any problems with guns shooting to fast. Seriously though they cant limit bps, because most guns dont have a bps limit feature on them so I think any major player would ditch the nppl and play in some other league. I also congragulate(sp) people who reallly light people up as long as they didnt do it on purpose, for example someone tried to do a run by bunkering on me and took 15 balls in the side because he ran with my bead i felt no sorrow because it was either him or me.

thats exactly what i was thinking about.
i see all these timmys and such without a cap, or without anyway to adjust the bps limit.
myself, just bought a viking, and it has was, and eyes, so its uncapped, and no way to adjust it unless you turn eyes off. but then its capped to 20.

so i agree with you, i think it would be very hard to enforce, and may not go through, since about 90% of the guns, dont have limits on them.

[ProX9]

good pick with getting the viking, I know i love my viking and youll like yours too.

[bunkermaster10]

I wouldn't care because then I could rock my Revy on the angel like back in the day. Just set my angel at 14bps and I would still be happy w/ that. I am a front guy though......

[MrWallen]

Originally posted by coolcatpete
what about those mech markers that can go over 14bps ex) Z-man rt-pro...

Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't he only go over 14 bps by sweetspotting, something already not allowed in NPPL? And even so, it'd be a lot easier to limit your RoF on a mech than an electro.

[Beemer]

I will be super pissed if this happens. What would be the point? Paintball is fine the way it is.
This is smart, if we had felt this way back in 88 we would still be shooting 325fps using uvex gogs and be blind.


So... how does one cap a mechanical marker?

Any one in NPPL using a mech marker?

[tbr13]

Highly doubt this will go in effect.
It would be highly detrimental for NPPL tournament series if they enforce this rule.

And even Though I play front and almost never shoot long fast strings, and whether or not this passes it won't really bother me personally.....all of you people who complain about too many BPS quit your whining and learn to snap shoot.

I snap out Paint floods all the time....

And yes it does suck running through a hose in the field or getting nailed 10 times while being bunkered....but that just makes me play harder and try not to get bunkered again.

Quit Whining Play HARDER!!!!

So tired of kids complaining about the guns and over shooting....debounce....blah...blah....blah....bla h....

Go back to the woods if you want a slower paced game.
Its air ball learn and live with the game...or get the hell out.

By the way I play with an original RT + Race Cocker, and I play both woods and airball.

[Torbo]

explain how this would be feasible. its not. There is no way that everyone who plays NPPL is gonna buy a new marker, or get new software, etc. Its too expensive, so most would probably just keep their guns the way they are and hop on over to PSP.

ill say more later, but now ive gotta do a physics lab

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Torbo
explain how this would be feasible. its not. There is no way that everyone who plays NPPL is gonna buy a new marker, or get new software, etc. Its too expensive, so most would probably just keep their guns the way they are and hop on over to PSP.

ill say more later, but now ive gotta do a physics lab

They wouldn't, eh?

I kinda remember when folks had to modify their guns to get under the 300 fps limit. Or, when people had to buy full facemasks and stop using shop goggles. Those aren't cheap you know......

It'll happen if the manufacturers want it to happen, and not a day before. The ROF cap has been posed before and "agreed" upon, wink wink wink. It only lasted about as long as it takes to read this sentence.

There's a lot of crying over spilt milk here. We're talking about capping electros. They are the easist markers to cap to a certain ROF. One little software upgrade and your there. Sure, it'll somehow cost an arm and a leg, but its very easy to do.

Plus, regardless of caps or ego, or what have you, there are a lot of people out there not really topping 14 bps anyhow. Sure, maybe 15-16, but your so close to the cap numbers wise that it won't change one bit. Some of you are acting like we just banned an amendment here.

Not that I really believe their going to do it anyway........

[-=Squid=-]

:rolleyes: Skill and tactics over volume? Go play recball. Nothing wrong with rec, but thats what you describe. Most maggers are reccers, and hate the fact that there precious emag is slow as fudge, so would kill for mech only tourneys and capped electros. Bleh, you know its the truth, and there isnt much argument against it.

beemer - that made no sense at all. I dont even know what to say to that, as every word seems out of place.

In conclusion, folks, this just isnt possible. SO much would have to go into making this work, and many would likely give up on the NPPL all togethor. All that would happen is the NPPL would piss a bunch of people off, and make about 40 people happy, which dont play in the NPPL to begin with.

[bunkermaster10]

Yea this probably won't happen. And if it does it will be a huge problem for many guys w/ markers that can't put a limit on. I don't mind playing w/ guys shooting a million BPS or 14, so whatever happens I'm kool with it. But I say keep it the way it is.

[~WarpedRT#2~]

Squid, you should see how Cyberious' X-Mag shoots. It isnt slow, trust me. And the E-Mag I owned wasn't slow by any stretch of the imagination. I think normal E-Mags are a tad slow, but they can still keep up.

Look, the problem here is, it would take too much money to implement such changes. They need to start a whole new league that uses such guns. Mechanical guns, and lower capped ones. They could make a whole line of boards for all the guns, and make you use them when you play.

[Jonesie]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
[BMost maggers are reccers, and hate the fact that there precious emag is slow as fudge, [/B]

Uh, what? My X-Mag, with 3.2 software is as fast as anything else out there. I don't know hwere you're getting your info, bud...

[GT]

You guys asleep on the post? there is an easy fix to this.. No Force feed loaders! There is your cap.

Try and push 17 on an x board revy.

I think most of you are very short sighted. Open up the tourney series to more people, industry gets larger, more people in some of these tournies, etc.... nevermind, my words fall on closed ears..


hate the fact that there precious emag is slow as fudge

That is a pretty moronic statement. You should know better.:(

[-=Squid=-]

Ok ok, im sorry, and will correct myself. Emags arent slow as "fudge" as I put it, but are not as fast as other guns, even with 3.2 They have a 20bps cap, meaning you can only hit 15-17 tops. Mags are awesome, I love them, but everyone as well as I know that a mag was not made to be electric, and the emag is not as good as a gun as it could be.

My point is this... lately I have noticed a lot of maggers are complaining about speed, and want mech only tourneys, bps caps etc... but the fact of the matter is that its the mags fault, and nothing more. They cannot keep up with other guns in terms of speed, efficiency, etc.

Dont get me wrong, I love mags, but like I said before, paintball doesnt need to change for AGD, AGD needs to change for paintball. Yes, I know that thats not what this thread is about, but thats what it is turning into.

In my oppinnion there is no reason to put a cap, and I also dont think it can be done without making a LOT of people angry.

And gtrsi, you know nothing compares to that viking of yours :D

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Jonesie


Uh, what? My X-Mag, with 3.2 software is as fast as anything else out there. I don't know hwere you're getting your info, bud... Actually its not. Its capped at 20 bps, as opposed to NO cap on many and most other high end electros. My info came straight fomr AGD. If you think im bashing mags, just read my above post.

[Miscue]

Squid... hush.

[GT]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Actually its not. Its capped at 20 bps, as opposed to NO cap on many and most other high end electros. My info came straight fomr AGD. If you think im bashing mags, just read my above post.

Tell me squid,
how many guys on the Rockie or mamture level consistantly shoot 20 bps. I played aganist some guys this weekend that had some dam fast fingers but I am willing to bet my oats that they were no where near 20bps.

Kasier Bob and I were playing this weekend and we had alittle chat about Halos. Some guys say that they chop becuase halos are to slow.... So you are telling me that there are that many players out there that run 22+, I doubt it. More than likly the loader isnt as fast as the mind perceives it to be.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Actually its not. Its capped at 20 bps, as opposed to NO cap on many and most other high end electros. My info came straight fomr AGD. If you think im bashing mags, just read my above post.

...and does the lack of a cap actually translate to a higher ROF...or is it just a marketing ploy to sucker the easily deluded into thinking it makes the marker better?

Ooo that's a toughie, let me think..... :rolleyes:

[RoadDawg]

My Emag has a cap of 26. Then again I have 4.0 beta test so it still has bugs and I can hit a faster rof then ever. I don't see how you can really enforce a bps when some markers don't have a adjust or cap limit. Installing new boards isn't. I for one see that if they do put a limit on most will jump to the PSP and the NPPL will fail. Plus if someone is using a mechanical marker then how do you limit those guys. Especially with the ULT. I know someone who can personally walk a ULT'ed mag as fast as any electro. How would they limit those types of things? just doesn't seem as easy as all would think.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Miscue
Squid... hush. uhh, no. Im chiming in my two cents on the matter and everybody is freaking out.


Gadget - yes, removing a cap will make a marker shoot faster. That was easy.

Guys, stop freaking out, im as pro mag as everyone, but my previous post still stands. Not the first one ;)

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
even with 3.2 They have a 20bps cap, meaning you can only hit 15-17 tops.

WTF are you talking about?;)

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


WTF are you talking about?;) Did I include wrong information? Sorry if I did, but it has been my knowledge (as well as what the screen says on the emag board) that they are capped at 20 bps...

[Gadget]

Uh no, not having a cap means that the marker can _theoretically_ cycle faster - it doesn't mean that you or I or Joe Bloggs can actually fire it faster.

I dunno how fast I can pull a trigger, but I do know that I sure as hell can't do it 20 times a second, so the presence of a cap is irrelevant.

I'd quit while you're ahead son, you're just making yourself look a bit daft. :)

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Gadget
Uh no, not having a cap means that the marker can _theoretically_ cycle faster - it doesn't mean that you or I or Joe Bloggs can actually fire it faster.

I dunno how fast I can pull a trigger, but I do know that I sure as hell can't do it 20 times a second, so the presence of a cap is irrelevant.

I'd quit while you're ahead son, you're just making yourself look a bit daft. :) There is barely a point arguing this anymore. Look at it like this... you and I both know angels, timmys, vikings, and half of everything else is faster than an EMAG, heck, IMO an RTP is! You guys are just misinterpreting my posts, and getting extremely defensive.

EDIT: If your gonna call me son, I should get to call you old man :rolleyes:

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Did I include wrong information? Sorry if I did, but it has been my knowledge (as well as what the screen says on the emag board) that they are capped at 20 bps...

I'm was curious how a 20 bps cap = 16-17 max ROF.Since I'm sure your aware that 3.2 w/ tha added shot buffering allows max ROF to meet and in many cases slightly exceed the cap.

[Gadget]

..and you'd be right the way I feel atm ;)

I think we'll have to disagree on this, because the fact is that an E-Mag ISN'T slower than any of those markers you've mentioned - unless they're setup for illegal runaway or bounce.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


I'm was curious how a 20 bps cap = 16-17 max ROF.Since I'm sure your aware that 3.2 w/ tha added shot buffering allows max ROF to meet and in many cases slightly exceed the cap. I wasnt aware they had shot buffering.

And yes, gadget, we do have to disagree. I think emags are some of the slowest electros out there, again, dont take this as an AGD attack or some crap, and that is the exact reason I bought a viking and NOT an emag.

Either way, carry on the original topic because this is getting stupid.

[bunkermaster10]

Well I think that emags are slow by the way its harder to get easy BPS then like timmys and trixes etc. Because they( Timmys etc.) are so easy to walk and rip on. But I haven't shot the 3.2 yet or 4.0. So I'm just saying most other electros are easier to shot faster with because the triggers are NICE, plus WAS is crazy! I'm not saying emags are slow....

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by bunkermaster10
Well I think that emags are slow by the way its harder to get easy BPS then like timmys and trixes etc. Because they( Timmys etc.) are so easy to walk and rip on. But I haven't shot the 3.2 yet or 4.0. So I'm just saying most other electros are easier to shot faster with because they triggers are NICE! I'm not saying emags are slow....

I agree with you.That's one reason why I stopped shooting Emags,until my current Xmag and 3.2 software.That and a sweet blade trigger(wink,wink)puts it in the same ballpark as all the rest if both are legally set up.

Jay.

[bunkermaster10]

Ya I would own a emag to, if it had a nice blade trigger and was super easy to walk on. Because I really do like AGD.

[Beemer]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
:rolleyes:
beemer - that made no sense at all. I dont even know what to say to that, as every word seems out of place.

When you learn more you will understand.

The ones makeing sense here know who you are so I will not do the repeat thing

One thing is constant and that is change.

The mag is capped for a reason.

Playing for 17yrs and still have both my eyes,I hope you will be able to say the same and I have been put to my knees and my back from close up head hits


heres a clue for ya can you say ANSI,ASTM

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Beemer


When you learn more you will understand.

The ones makeing sense here know who you are so I will not do the repeat thing

One thing is constant and that is change.

The mag is capped for a reason.

Playing for 17yrs and still have both my eyes,I hope you will be able to say the same and I have been put to my knees and my back from close up head hits


heres a clue for ya can you say ANSI,ASTM What do you mean "know who I am?"

I understand the mag is capped for a reason. It is because the solenoid will melt if it goes much higher than 20bps.

I reread your post, and apologize for saying you made no sense. It just didnt occur to me what you were saying, so I blurted something stupid. My apologies.

HOWEVER! I still say that there is no need to drop the cap. It would be a bad move.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
What do you mean "know who I am?"

I understand the mag is capped for a reason. It is because the solenoid will melt if it goes much higher than 20bps.


Squid... hush. This is not true at all.

[coolcatpete]

Originally posted by MrWallen


Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't he only go over 14 bps by sweetspotting, something already not allowed in NPPL? And even so, it'd be a lot easier to limit your RoF on a mech than an electro.
no he got over 20bps sweet spotting and over 14bps fanning/twiching. Nicad mag got over 20bps without fanning, do a search in the workshop.
Pete

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Miscue


Squid... hush. This is not true at all. That what many have said when experimenting with speeds upwards of 24 bps. And if it wasnt involving the solenoid, why wouldnt they uncap it? there is no other reason not to.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
That what many have said when experimenting with speeds upwards of 24 bps. And if it wasnt involving the solenoid, why wouldnt they uncap it? there is no other reason not to.

/me's head hurts.

<B>I</B> have been experimenting with this. <B>My</B> software makes this possible! Aye Caramba. This information originated from either me or Tom.

'They' is me. I am doing the capping or uncapping. Geez!

[-=Squid=-]

ok, before I go insane and say something stupid, im going to end this. I do NOT know everything about the emag solenoid, other than it cannot take to high speeds.

Im not trying to prove you wrong, as im sure you know more about the electronics than me.

But I will say this... the emag is NOT as fast a gun as others. Every person here knows it. Thats all I have to say about the topic, end of discussion. If you dont like what I just said, get over it people.

[Miscue]

I noticed you edited your last thread where you were explaining about how 'they' did the testing and you heard from 'they' about these problems... and something about stupidity, yada yada. I was about to ask who 'they' are... but I guess 'they' don't exist, which is why you pruned that after you thought about it.

I was going to take a break, but I'm going to get back to work on this to make you eat your words. You have absolutely no idea of what we are working on. There is a reason why it is not released yet.

[Jack & Coke]

Hi Squid,

Old EMAGS seemed "slow" (lol) comapred to those other guns you mentioned NOT because of the noid... but because of the software.

Pre-shot buffering software (i.e. before Miscue's wonder-code) = EMAG max ROF ~ 16-18 bps... (yes even if your board says 20)

Proven here: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102912&highlight=ROF

The only way to get am EMAG to cycle faster was to use a Morlock board:

Butterfingers 30cps EMAG: http://paintball.butters.org/

All other "faster" gun you mentioned have shot buffering. That's why they seemed faster to you.

Now AGD is going to include shot buffering... so no more skipped shots. :)

If all goes well, the EMAG will be even faster due to Miscue's l33t programming skillz!:D

BTW, I don't think I have ever seen live, or video clip of anyone shooting their gun legally (raking or walking a non-cheater gun) greater than 20 bps. Without illegal trigger bounce (i.e. debounce set to 1 or 2) people with super finger powers seem to sudenly "come back down to earth" when it comes to how fast they can shoot.

If you have a video clip of someone legally walking their trigger and shooting paint at 20+ bps, please post the link. I'm just currious since the latest chatter now is that "20 is slow...".

Can someone verify if this
"NPPL CAP rule" is true?

Links?

Thanks :)

[ProX9]

i hit 20 bps easy with the 4.0 software and topped at 23 walking the trigger, of course this was without air and i dont remember what i hit with it aired up except that i was outshooting the halo. anyways when 4.0 comes out you wont be able to say emags are slower than other guns any more its just not true. I own a viking and those are fricken fast and i think the mag was faster, but you have to remember that the lx bolt will let you outshoot a hopper and eyes wont so i dunno which is truly faster i just cant wait to see them after the new software comes stock.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Miscue
I noticed you edited your last thread where you were explaining about how 'they' did the testing and you heard from 'they' about these problems... and something about stupidity, yada yada. I was about to ask who 'they' are... but I guess 'they' don't exist, which is why you pruned that after you thought about it.

I was going to take a break, but I'm going to get back to work on this to make you eat your words. You have absolutely no idea of what we are working on. There is a reason why it is not released yet. Im afraid jack and coke just proved my point. Sorry to burst your bubble. I deleted my last post because I didnt wanna keep stirring up this pot of crap. You know, you dont have to show off how smart you are because thats all your trying to do.

I never EDITED anything, I deleted a post that said one person in particular did testing at 24 cps, and his noid melted. In order to end this squabble I just deleted it. You instead decide to post again, and make me "eat my words." Im trying my hardest to hold back here, as I know your first reaction is to ban people when you get proven wrong, or disagree with a person.

EDIT: I know about shot buffering, and I know thats why they are faster ;) Thats why I said the emag is slow compared to other guns, because up until now (supposedly) they were.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Im afraid jack and coke just proved my point. Sorry to burst your bubble. I deleted my last post because I didnt wanna keep stirring up this pot of crap. You know, you dont have to show off how smart you are because thats all your trying to do.

I never EDITED anything, I deleted a post that said one person in particular did testing at 24 cps, and his noid melted. In order to end this squabble I just deleted it. You instead decide to post again, and make me "eat my words." Im trying my hardest to hold back here, as I know your first reaction is to ban people when you get proven wrong, or disagree with a person.

EDIT: I know about shot buffering, and I know thats why they are faster ;) Thats why I said the emag is slow compared to other guns, because up until now (supposedly) they were.

No he didn't! It disproves your point! You didn't say anything about Emags being fast now, you just said that Emags are slow and everyone knows it! This is the first time you mentioned a disclaimer.

My first reaction is not to ban you. Otherwise you would not be here to even talk. Quit making stuff up.

Deleting a post and replacing it = editing!

Alright... I'm done with you.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Miscue


No he didn't! It disproves your point! You didn't say anything about Emags being fast now, you just said that Emags are slow and everyone knows it! This is the first time you mentioned a disclaimer.

My first reaction is not to ban you. Otherwise you would not be here to even talk. Quit making stuff up.

Deleting a post and replacing it = editing!

Alright... I'm done with you. You sure taught me a good lessen :rolleyes:

Wanna show me how smart you are? Do my chemistry before I freak out.

This is beyond the point of stupidity. Lemme guess, im the stupid one? Im gonna stop trying to actually prove a point, and act like 90% of other people. Emags are slow. Nuff' said.

[cphilip]

Oh for heavens sakes Squidly... now you see why it scared me earlier today when we agreed on something... ;)

Ok Squid. Follow me here for just a second

Back up to earlier. Ready?

Your wrong!

now go on about your business! :D

[Dayspring]

Too late. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by -=Squid=-
ok, before I go insane and say something stupid, im going to end this.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Dayspring
Too late. :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I never have, nor ever will, care about what you say.

Factually, I admit im wrong about somethings. But my point is this. The emag is not as fast as most other markers. Thats where I stand, and there is no changing my mind. To me, an emag is about the same speed as an LCD angel.

EDIT: I just reread every post I made here. Other than my pissy first post, which I apologized for, there isnt any information that I threw out here, or said ,that is untrue. They are slower than other electros because of the cap, they care capped at 20 bps. If I recall thats all I said and people got defensive and blew it out of proportion.

[ProX9]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Emags are slow. Nuff' said.

Your seriously going to be in for a suprise when some of the ao day footage of the 4.0 emags gets online.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by ProX9


Your seriously going to be in for a suprise when some of the ao day footage of the 4.0 emags gets online. Mabe I will, but as of now they are slow.

Let me clarify. I dont think mags are physically slow. PHYSICALLY they are ridiculously fast. ELECTRONICALLY they are slow, and you know it. Wanna know why others are faster? Because ELECTRONICALLY they can shoot an infinite number of balls per second, while emags can ELECTRONICALLY only shoot 20. Got it now? Now that wasnt so hard... :rolleyes:

[coolcatpete]

Did you see the vid off the x-mag with 4.0 they had a readiong of 19 bps, and that for suire is not slow, then they got a reading of 23bps and that is helle fast, what other markers do you see doing that. And 3.2 is capped at 24 for x-mags and 20 for the emag so the real question is what do you consider fast

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by coolcatpete
Did you see the vid off the x-mag with 4.0 they had a readiong of 19 bps, and that for suire is not slow, then they got a reading of 23bps and that is helle fast, what other markers do you see doing that. And 3.2 is capped at 24 for x-mags and 20 for the emag so the real question is what do you consider fast I consider uncapped faster than 20 bps, I know that.

[cphilip]

Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.... I consider... bla bla bla... and bla bla bla...

Why do I feel like Charlie Brown now? :(

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by cphilip
Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.... I consider... bla bla bla... and bla bla bla...

Why do I feel like Charlie Brown now? :( because you should? ;) Anybody know chemistry?

[cphilip]

Chemistry! I do! I not sure I want to teach tonight though. What chemistry you doing? Organic or Inorganic?

But here ya go! Read! (http://www.chemtutor.com/)

Good site by the way...

[Miscue]

<img src="http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/thc/cover.gif">

[agdemagman69]

yeah, Back on topic anyway...



I think a 15 bps cap would be sufficient, and i play a lot of tournament ball. The speeds are getting redicukous nowadays and are taking some of the sport out of it...

[50 cal]

Can anyone say "marketing"? Paintslingers are about as fast as you can trip the trigger. Next gimmick is to sell the tourney players a "new" gun that is capped at the updated ROF.

The market is saturated with high ROF guns, the makers have got to do something to sell new guns, plain and simple.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Miscue
<img src="http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/thc/cover.gif"> Thanks for making me feel like a retard.

[FrAuStY]

Miscue,
Are you subtly posting the chemical compounds of Marijuana on these boards? I noticed THC, THCI, TH.... lol I know the active chemical in marijuana that gives you the high is TetraHydraCanibinol or THC.. just curious...

<--- Not a chemist!:D

[argnot]

I think it is a great idea. But my friend can seriously rip 13 bps on his non eblade 99 cocker. That was years ago and to think he has only gotten better with time. What I think needs to be done is soild mechanical markers with electronic eye just for anti-chop. I would still allow for a myriad of markers but eliminate alot of problems. Or just break it up into classes.

[banzaimf]

One good reason for a cap

Limiting ROF will let players make riskier moves. Action sells on TV. Some guy hunkered behind a bunker that is turning green doesn't

[Jack & Coke]

Squid,

When you say "EMAG's are slow...", do you mean there is some range of ROF that is "slow", "medium", and "fast" ?


Could you please define these ROF's?

slow = ?
med = ?
fast = ?

I'm trying to gain a better understanding of your interpretation and opinion of ROF.

thanks :)

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Jack &amp; Coke
Squid,

When you say "EMAG's are slow...", do you mean there is some range of ROF that is "slow", "medium", and "fast" ?


Could you please define these ROF's?

slow = ?
med = ?
fast = ?

I'm trying to gain a better understanding of your interpretation and opinion of ROF.

thanks :) They are slow in comparison to fast. Alone they are medium. Stock imp boards (13bps) etc are slow. Vapor, morlock, and WAS Guns are fast.

[~WarpedRT#2~]

Can we remember that it's not the speed of a gun that counts? It's the player behind the gun. The guy who is pointing it. Thats what really important.

As for Viking, who cares? They are the flavor of the month, and they will be gone soon. Who cares if they arent capped. With WAS releasing figures like 40+ cps, it makes everyone crazy to get the "fastest" gun. I rememebr back when I had my Piranha, I used to go play with guys with Angels who had been playing for years, and I'd still take them out. Rate of fire no longer intimidates me, It now only means they spend more on paint than I do, and thats fine with me.

[agdemagman69]

Originally posted by ~WarpedRT#2~
As for Viking, who cares? They are the flavor of the month, and they will be gone soon.

BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol j/k

[Jack & Coke]

Squid,

Am I correct in reading your last post as: 13bps is "slow"?

Also, could you please give me a number (bps) for "fast"?

thanks again:)

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by ~WarpedRT#2~

As for Viking, who cares? They are the flavor of the month, and they will be gone soon. uhhh, no they arent. They are fast as a timmy, more effcient than ANY other marker, VERY Hard to make it chop... I mean, name one bad thing about it, please. I dare you.


Jack & coke - yes, I think a 13bps capped marker is slow. Why are you asking questions that you already know how I will answer?

[GA Devil]

with as much problems a cap would cause with paintball companies (actual Paintball) I dont see a cap happening. That means sales at events would drop for players. Sales of actual paintballs that is. Everyone in the industry seems to have their hand in each others pockets somewhere along the road so I dont see paintball manufacturers losing money just to cap ROF or loader manufacturers cause noby will run more then needed to save the wieght of the halo. to many ways for cheats as well. You can make a board do anything you want it to do when ever you want with the right programer. only way for them to check is a chrono sting which isnt happening in the middle of a game. As for what gun is slow or not...it gets the job done right? Thats what counts. But i wouldnt count on companies losing money just to slow the game down a bit.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-

Jack & coke - yes, a 13bps capped marker is slow. Why are you asking questions that you already know the answer to?



Squid,

I know what I think these BPS numbers are.

I just don't know what you think these BPS numbers are.

I'm just trying to ask what BPS "slow", "medium", and "fast" mean to you.

IMHO, since I still play pump and mechanical, "slow" is about 4-8, "medium" is about 8-12, and anything else above 12 is "fast".

But that's from my opinion - which, without a doubt, will differ from someone elses. I know this and don't disagree as we all are accustomed to different playing styles.

So please, I ask you again:

"slow" = ?

"medium" = ?

"fast" = ?

in BPS

thanks! :)

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Jack &amp; Coke


Squid,

I know what I think these BPS numbers are.

I just don't know what you think these BPS numbers are.

I'm just trying to ask what BPS "slow", "medium", and "fast" mean to you.

IMHO, since I still play pump and mechanical, "slow" is about 4-8, "medium" is about 8-12, and anything else above 12 is "fast".

But that's from my opinion - which, without a doubt, will differ from someone elses. I know this and don't disagree as we all are accustomed to different playing styles.

So please, I ask you again:

"slow" = ?

"medium" = ?

"fast" = ?

in BPS

thanks! :)

In my opinnion

Slow = anything capped around 13bps or so

medium = 15-18 bps (or capped at something like 20bps)

fast = uncapped, or easy to obtain 18+ bps (morlock, WAS, vapor...)

Again, these are my opinions. Like you said, everybody has them, so I will not bash anothers, as long as somebody doesnt say mine are "Wrong." I hope I finally made a legitamate point that you all get, so you will stop acting like im saying mags are slow and decrepid, and total crap...which I thought I made clear that they werent. I like mags, thats why I post here :) I just think emags are slow compared to other ridiculously fast guns.

[Gadget]

Erm, so if someone has an E-Mag with a nicely setup trigger which they can walk at 18-19bps, then it qualifies as 'fast' according to your criteria? The cap is meaningless UNLESS you can actually fire faster than the cap.

I know for certain that I can't pull a trigger 20 times a second, so having a cap is irrelevant to the speed of the marker unless we're talking about cheaty bounce.

18bps on an E-Mag is just as fast as 18bps on a Viking.

[lord1234]

i can do 18 bps EASILY on my xmag...dunno what the hell you are talkin about.

[bunkermaster10]

Throw in my opionion about BPS-

Low- 5-10
Med- 11-15
High- 16+

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by bunkermaster10
Throw in my opionion about BPS-

My opinion is that paintball players claiming how fast their marker or finger is are often absolutely full of it.









Oh I'm sorry, b_P_s. :D

[-=Squid=-]

God this has gotten stupid.

[shartley]

Originally posted by bunkermaster10
Throw in my opionion about BPS-

Low- 5-10
Med- 11-15
High- 16+
I would generally agree with those numbers.


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


My opinion is that paintball players claiming how fast their marker or finger is are often absolutely full of it.

Oh I'm sorry, b[b]P[\b]s. :D
And I DEFINITELY agree with that! :D

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
ok, before I go insane and say something stupid, im going to end this.

Hmm. Wrong on two counts. (Too late and you didn’t end it.) :p

But I am horrified that I will agree with Squidy (courtesy Cphillip) on one thing. This thread is completely stupid.

Those that claim any marker is faster or slower than another marker without any kind of measurable and repeatable data are the dumbest of the bunch. Those who put any great pride in their finger speed abilities without air and paintballs, trusting unproven measurement techniques are not far behind in the “Upper Class Twit of the Year” competition.

It’s comparable to a sprinter claiming they can run an 7 sec 100 meter dash based on one tiny measurement of their top speed. Heck based on my top attainable burst speed, even with my sorry out-of-shape frame, I should be able to easily win the world championship 100 meter dash, marathon, and everything in-between.

How can anyone claim they or their guns are fast or slow without proper measurements? What does it matter if there’s shoot-down?


Originally posted by Jack &amp; Coke
BTW, I don't think I have ever seen live, or video clip of anyone shooting their gun legally (raking or walking a non-cheater gun) greater than 20 bps. Without illegal trigger bounce (i.e. debounce set to 1 or 2) people with super finger powers seem to sudenly "come back down to earth" when it comes to how fast they can shoot.

Everyone without a video, proof they own a PACT, Oehler-research, or comparable chronograph, and the printout from that chronograph should be banned from posting any opinion or statements concerning their or their markers performance.


Originally posted by ProX9
i hit 20 bps easy with the 4.0 software and topped at 23 walking the trigger, of course this was without air and i dont remember what i hit with it aired up except that i was outshooting the halo.

How do you know? Your marker told you? Readings off a marker are useless. We have no idea how the number was determined nor if it was determined correctly. Hasn’t it been proven over a PACT chronograph that WAS boards are “optimistic” with the reading they give?

And if you didn’t have air.... Honestly, who cares. Not going to get you very far degassing your marker in the middle of the game, standing up and shouting, “Look at me! All those nights alone have paid off! I’m better than all of you and you should bow down before me!” Although, done the right way the other team may be so busy laughing and/or lighting you up that your team MAY gain the advantage. [But I’d think that nights alone improve your pump gun skills and not your trigger finger....]

And even then marker readings are only “instantaneous” bps. The shortest time between two subsequent shots. That is a meaningless number. It could be a complete fluke that you reached that number. A completely uncontrolled spasm that built up in your finger.

Until I see numbers that include number of actual balls fired, instantaneous bps, average bps, median bps, average deviation of bps, AND average fps, median fps, average deviation of fps, I don’t see what the point of any of this hot air generation has to do with actually playing paintball.

[-=Squid=-]

bleh... I dont see how debounce on 2 isnt tourney legal. I CANNOT make it shoot more than one ball per pull. Thats what my vike is set on, and I challenge somebody to make it shoot one ball per pull. In fact, the refs told me to use two.

[fallout11]

Plus, 60 years of US military-backed studies have proven conclusively that the ability to concentrate on and perform a coordinated, dexterously delicate task (such walking a trigger) is severely degraded and impared by stress, excitement, adrenalin, and suppressive enemy fire.

In short, even if you can fire 23 BPS in your backyard, you are firing more slowly than that on the field, in a game. Guaranteed.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by fallout11

In short, even if you can fire 23 BPS in your backyard, you are firing more slowly than that on the field, in a game. Guaranteed. I will more than likely agree with you on this, but to me it seems I can shoot MUCH faster in game :confused:

[fallout11]

That is just your perception of it.
When under the effects of stress, pressure, excitement, adrenaline, etc., your mind's perception of time can be altered.
Your mind simply plays tricks on you.

Have you ever lost track of time doing something interesting or entertaining (playing video games, for example?)

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by fallout11
That is just your perception of it.
When under the effects of stress, adrenaline, etc., your mind's perception of time can be altered.
Your mind simply plays tricks on you.

Have you ever lost track of time doing something interesting or entertaining (playing video games, for example?) Ya, I know what your saying, and thats why im not going to disagree with you. It seems like adrenaline would make you shoot faster, not slower. I mean, I dont walk onto the field nervous or anything, I walk on with the mindset that were gonna win, and it usually helps.

Wow this thread has gone from crappy, to horrible, to bad, to worse, to even worse, to interesting... I didnt know that was possible.

[RoadDawg]

Instead of limiting the bps let them limit the amount of PODS going onto the field. That would make those fools that through a ton of paint slow down. Once they are out they are useless. just my 2 cents.

[hitech]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
And even then marker readings are only “instantaneous” bps. The shortest time between two subsequent shots. That is a meaningless number.

That is not what Miscue claims he does in 4.0. I haven't seen the code myself, so I can't verify what it does, but last I read he claimed to take the highest bps during a one second interval.

That said, I am still skeptical. I’ve never considered myself fast. Normally I just pull the trigger with one finger. I have 4.0 and tried out of few techniques. Here is what I got:

1. Just pulling the trigger with one finger = 7 bps
2. Fanning = 10bps
3. Hitech’s odd walking technique = 10bps
4. Raking the center hump = 13 bps
5. Manike’s raking technique = 20bps once, normally 18-19bps)

This is without air (my wife hates it when I shoot in the house ;) ). I turned the solenoid off to insure I wasn’t getting any solenoid/HES “bounce”.

BTW, it did not seem to matter if the ROF cap was set at 20 or 26. Personally that speaks volumes for the software. I think miscue did a great job, and I write software for a living. :D

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by RoadDawg
Instead of limiting the bps let them limit the amount of PODS going onto the field. That would make those fools that through a ton of paint slow down. Once they are out they are useless. just my 2 cents. To me thats an even worse idea.

Limited paint would be silly. Personally I feel putting caps on the guns, and limiting paint etc. makes for a MUCH more boring game to watch and play.

[RoadDawg]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
To me thats an even worse idea.

Limited paint would be silly. Personally I feel putting caps on the guns, and limiting paint etc. makes for a MUCH more boring game to watch and play.
Agreed it would be extremely boring, but if they can't cap all markers then next step would be limiting the pods. I see players carrying 10+ pods out just for one game. Sure it's the back mans job to through that much paint but if they are gonna limit the bps to say 15 and not all markers have a cappable board then limiting pods is the only thing left to limit that everyone is equal on. Say like a 6 pod limit or something like that.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Limited paint would be silly.
There's already a tournament circuit that uses limited paint rules. Guess they're all just silly.

Personally I feel putting caps on the guns, and limiting paint etc. makes for a MUCH more boring game to watch and play.
Because watching people stay in one place and endlessly hose bunkers down field pausing only to reload is just SOOOO exiting to watch. :rolleyes:
How will it be a more boring game with rof caps or limited paint?
You know, discussion would be so much more interesting and enlightening to everyone if ideas were attacked with logic and reason as opposed to pathetic put-downs.
10 round, 25 gram rock%cock or 2000 rnd, unlimited air, 30 bps super electro. Neither is stupid, pathetic, useless, etc, etc. They are just different. If you like one more than the other and can find others to play with, no skin of anybody's nose.
If you want to change one or the other use some intelligence and say WHY you think it should be changed and HOW the change should effect the game.What's so silly about limited paint? If you are speaking against a change say WHY you're against it using intelligent thought and say why the change wouldn't effect the game or how it would effect the game negatively.
What's so stupid about rof caps? And I'm talking about caps lower than ANSI/ASTM. Just meeting and enforcing those shouldn't even be open to discussion. But what are the ANSI/ASTM caps?

[RoadDawg]

My problem with limiting paint is if it's too low (PanAm) then it isn't as fun to watch. Playing on the other hand is more challenging. Now I think they should go to a 6 pod(140 RD pod) limit and a hopper no bigger then the TSA's (220). That is still enough paint to keep the action going but it will require more skill to get the job done. Just some food for thought.

[Jack & Coke]

lol

I remember back in 1988 @ SC Village, we were playing with PGP's and 3-5 10-round-tubes! :)

Man that was fun! There was actually a lot more sneaking around (woods/huts/old busted up vehicles) back then. My guess is because you weren't stuck behind a bunker with someone shooting 1,000 balls at you.

:p

[Miscue]

Originally posted by hitech


That is not what Miscue claims he does in 4.0. I haven't seen the code myself, so I can't verify what it does, but last I read he claimed to take the highest bps during a one second interval.

That said, I am still skeptical. I’ve never considered myself fast. Normally I just pull the trigger with one finger. I have 4.0 and tried out of few techniques. Here is what I got:

1. Just pulling the trigger with one finger = 7 bps
2. Fanning = 10bps
3. Hitech’s odd walking technique = 10bps
4. Raking the center hump = 13 bps
5. Manike’s raking technique = 20bps once, normally 18-19bps)

This is without air (my wife hates it when I shoot in the house ;) ). I turned the solenoid off to insure I wasn’t getting any solenoid/HES “bounce”.

BTW, it did not seem to matter if the ROF cap was set at 20 or 26. Personally that speaks volumes for the software. I think miscue did a great job, and I write software for a living. :D

Thanks for the compliment!

Yes, what it does is: Every time it fires, it increments a counter. Every second it resets that counter. The highest it achieves is saved as the MAX bps. The firing subroutine is linked with the bps increment... it cannot be incremented unless it attempted to fire. That's the keyword, "attempted."

That's the current project right now, getting attempted shots to mechanically fire.

[fallout11]

Originally posted by Jack &amp; Coke
lol

I remember back in 1988 @ SC Village, we were playing with PGP's and 3-5 10-round-tubes! :)

Man that was fun! There was actually a lot more sneaking around (woods/huts/old busted up vehicles) back then. My guess is because you weren't stuck behind a bunker with someone shooting 1,000 balls at you.

:p

Yep, those were the best dang days!
Talk about an adrenalin rush!
You really had to make those shots count back then.

And "skill" involved much more than just pushing a button quickly.....

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

There's already a tournament circuit that uses limited paint rules. Guess they're all just silly.

Because watching people stay in one place and endlessly hose bunkers down field pausing only to reload is just SOOOO exiting to watch. :rolleyes:
How will it be a more boring game with rof caps or limited paint?
You know, discussion would be so much more interesting and enlightening to everyone if ideas were attacked with logic and reason as opposed to pathetic put-downs.
10 round, 25 gram rock%cock or 2000 rnd, unlimited air, 30 bps super electro. Neither is stupid, pathetic, useless, etc, etc. They are just different. If you like one more than the other and can find others to play with, no skin of anybody's nose.
If you want to change one or the other use some intelligence and say WHY you think it should be changed and HOW the change should effect the game.What's so silly about limited paint? If you are speaking against a change say WHY you're against it using intelligent thought and say why the change wouldn't effect the game or how it would effect the game negatively.
What's so stupid about rof caps? And I'm talking about caps lower than ANSI/ASTM. Just meeting and enforcing those shouldn't even be open to discussion. But what are the ANSI/ASTM caps? You want pathetic put downs? What you said was stupid. My idea is better. Things shouldnt be changed. Paintball is PERFECT the way it is. there. That was a pathetic put down. Nowhere else in the thread have I used a pathetic put down. Get over yourself. If you think something is wrong with paintball now, then find a new sport or play the limited paint series. Happy? THATS a pathetic put down. Logic and reason eh? Where is YOURS? You just said you disareed, in a nasty way. I said I disagreed, AND SAID WHY.

Like you said, there are two types of paintball. A slower paced, time concuming game, and a fast paced super electro type. Wanna know what they are? Rec and Speedball. You want slower action? Play rec. You think things are just fine? Then keep doing exactly what you are doing, be it speedball or rec.

Also, im about to say the only "pathetic put down" That I truthfully mean in the whole thread. People who say tournement paintball, which involves shooting A LOT, involves less skill than recball with 50 rds. of paint, is an IDIOT. Both involve the same ammount, but then again both are different types of games.

Unsubcribed. Im sick of reading some of these retarded posts. You can now cheer, as im done posting in this lame-o thread.

[Miscue]

Squid... enjoy your few day vacation. You flame people way too much and disrupt threads way too much. Good bye.

[Beemer]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

What's so stupid about rof caps? And I'm talking about caps lower than ANSI/ASTM. Just meeting and enforcing those shouldn't even be open to discussion. But what are the ANSI/ASTM caps?


Glad you asked, I have the ANSI files[standards document] for gun and gogs.

Ever see Hotdog The Movie? Chinese down Hill, wtf is Chinese Down, First the Rules------THERE ARE NO RULES.

1 cycle = return of bolt to full reset position = 1 pull 1 shot


semi-automatic mode marker—a semi-automatic
marker discharges one time with each trigger cycle. Markers
that “store” the number of trigger pulls and discharge more
than one paintball at some point do not meet this definition.
Markers that operate in any other discharge mode(s) do not
meet this definition.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Things shouldnt be changed. Paintball is PERFECT the way it is.

....there are two types of paintball. A slower paced, time concuming game, and a fast paced super electro type. Wanna know what they are? Rec and Speedball.

It's this kind of attitude which causes problems within the sport. Saying that the game is 'perfect' on the back of (I'm guessing at most) a couple of years playing is a bit presumptuous.

Paintball is a sport which is still evolving - just because manic in-your-face play is in vogue at the moment doesn't mean that's where the sport is going to stay.

Personally I think the game needs to step back a bit - by no means go all the way back to 30 minute games in the woodland, but maybe take the pace down a peg.

The game is so fast at the moment that refs have trouble making calls, playing-on is seen as part of the game and the arms race just keeps on going.

Limiting ROF or paint consumption per game would be one way of keeping things vaguely sane.

[845]

And lets limit all *race* cars to 55 mph while we're at it.



edit**for clarity

[RoadDawg]

Originally posted by 845
And lets limit all cars to 55 mph while we're at it.
First off that's out of left field. If your gonna make a comparison at least make it similar. Saying stuff like that doesn't help your case. I for one think they should either cap the BPS &/or limit the # of paint on the field (not as low as the PanAm though).

[Brophog]

Originally posted by 845
And lets limit all cars to 55 mph while we're at it.

Your disproving your own point. We do limit cars to 55, where appropriate.

We also limit them to other speeds when appropriate.

No one is talking about taking away your little toys, just capping them to reasonable speeds. You'll still be able to lane, provide cover fire, and snapshoot. It will just be more reasonable.

A cap of 14 bps will not change how the game is played. If you go through 10 pods now, you'll go through 10 pods with the cap as well. I guarantee you, your not sustaining more than 14 bps on a regular basis anyhow. In spurts yes, but in streams, such as what a back man would shoot, no.

[shartley]

Originally posted by 845
And lets limit all cars to 55 mph while we're at it.
Speed limits of 55 were not safety issues, but for fuel consumption. If they were to do that again in the US, and for the same reasons, they would make it more like 65 or 70 since that is where it seems most newer cars burn fuel the most efficiently (or at least what I have seen).

Now you edited it to say “race” cars… well, sorry to say, but if you want to use limiting factors for “race cars”… they are already in place. In fact I believe another set of restrictions went into effect this past year (at least for NASCAR) and this coming season will all see NEW cars since the old ones don’t meet the restriction requirements. And yes, most all of these restrictions are aimed to reduce the speed and power of the race cars… in essence doing just what you suggest (aside from the actual speed limit) by limiting how fast the car can physically go.

(I am sure any NASCAR fan can add to this, or clear up any minor errors in my post.)

[845]

So now all cars can go the same speed in Nascar? Its purely skill of the driver.

[RoadDawg]

All the cars weigh the same, go the same speed it's just about getting the drag off of another car and getting the turns down just right so gravity helps shoot ya around the corners. I'm not a Nascar fan so if I'm wrong I'll step down.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Beemer
semi-automatic mode marker—a semi-automatic
marker discharges one time with each trigger cycle. Markers that “store” the number of trigger pulls and discharge more than one paintball at some point do not meet this definition.


Did anyone else notice this? By these standards any marker with shot buffering is not semi-auto.

[fallout11]

Originally posted by hitech


Did anyone else notice this? By these standards any marker with shot buffering is not semi-auto.

This is absolutely correct, and I brought this up during the "full auto" discussion.
Guns that buffer shots are not semi-automatic.
Not according to the standards.
And not according to reality.

Stored "shots" in a memory buffer is just that, a queue of yet unfired but yet soon to be 'automatically' (and without any human control) fired shots.
That's actually worse than full auto, in my book, since once input, there is no longer any human control on the firing mechanism. With full auto, you can always take your finger off the trigger.....

This is the same kind of stored energy safety regulations warn of when locking out equipment for working.

[fallout11]

Originally posted by RoadDawg
All the cars weigh the same, go the same speed it's just about getting the drag off of another car and getting the turns down just right so gravity helps shoot ya around the corners. I'm not a Nascar fan so if I'm wrong I'll step down.

Pretty much right. NASCAR uses spoiler surface area and angles, restrictor plates, weight limitations, the type of tires used, the amount of gas the car can carry, and the like to "equalize" all makes and types of cars, and to restrict their overal top speed and ability to accelerate.
Thus, in a sense, only the skill of the driver and luck matter.
And they tweak the rules every year to keep it that way, and make the races "more exciting".
Nascar has gained viewers, fans, and advertising dollars since they started doing this, too.
Plus, they enforce it with an iron hand. Even inspect, weigh, and measure the cars before and after every race.

In paintball, restricting rates of fire and amount of ammo carried by each team would be identical, or even more leniant.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by fallout11


This is absolutely correct, and I brought this up during the "full auto" discussion.
Guns that buffer shots are not semi-automatic.
Not according to the standards.
And not according to reality.

Stored "shots" in a memory buffer is just that, a queue of yet unfired but yet soon to be 'automatically' (and without any human control) fired shots.
That's actually worse than full auto, in my book, since once input, there is no longer any human control on the firing mechanism. With full auto, you can always take your finger off the trigger.....

This is the same kind of stored energy safety regulations warn of when locking out equipment for working.

That's not entirely accurate.All shot buffering does is allow you to fire as fast as you actaully pulled the trigger and still maintain a ROF cap on the gun.If you had an uncapped board and no buffer,your ROF would still be the same.

[fallout11]

No, if I pull the trigger a ka-jillion times and then drop the gun, it keeps firing even though it's not even in my hand. Now, granted, this is an exaggeration, to be sure.

Point is, when using a buffered shot gun, let's say I hit the opponent with the first ball, but have already pulled the trigger 10 times.
Guess what?
Even though I've quite pulling the trigger after seeing I hit him, he still gets shot 10 more times.
Shot buffering is basically "burst mode", under a different name.

That's why they break the rules/standards.

But you're right, if I had an uncapped board and no buffer, I can only fire as fast as I can pull the trigger.

[RRfireblade]

Well that's an extreme version of buffering not used by any manufacturer that I'm aware of.AGD and all others I'm aware of only buffer one shot if the marker is in the process of firing while you pulled the trigger.Extremely low bounce settings are far worse in my opinion and has become the standard in the industry.It should be unlawfull and prosecutable to manufacture and release a marker capable of adjusting a perameter beyond a certain point.

[fallout11]

Agreed, RRfireblade.
I admit I exaggerated to illustrate a point.

But the low bounce settings and new jittery electronic triggers are getting ridiculous.

An example:
A friend was showing off his new Intimidator recently.
I asked to hold it, and made nice comments about it.
I gave it back to him, and he set it back down on the table.
It fired.
Yep.
On it's own.
Just by being set down on a table.
Like some cheap imported pistol.

That's why barrel condoms/plugs are a MUST in goggles off areas.
And also why I think some of the new crop of electros are the most dangerous things I've seen on the field in recent years.

[Beemer]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
Extremely low bounce settings are far worse in my opinion and has become the standard in the industry.It should be unlawfull and prosecutable to manufacture and release a marker capable of adjusting a perameter beyond a certain point.

Is this whats happening?

Is this not ANSI conforming?

[Beemer]

whats the low bounce setting do

[Beemer]

crap you guys are faster then me.

Would now be a good time to tell ya about the ANSI ADT
accidental discharge test

[RRfireblade]

Basically, the "bounce" setting is a threshhold the software uses to determine if a signal was sent from the switch.It's purpose is to eliminate any switch signals that are created by anything other than a pull of the trigger.A switch has various states of conditions during the pull.It's not truly on/off if you check it at the most fine degree.By dropping this "threshold",the software will recognize many more conditions than just on/off and fire when the switch is in between those to states.

[fallout11]

I would say that increasingly we are reaching that point, Beemer.

1) Any gun that buffers more than 1 shot is definitely not a semi-automatic, per the standards.
In real firearms that's called a burst.

2) Any gun that uses switch noise to generate shots is also not a semi-automatic, per the standards.

3) Finally, any gun with ridiculously low bounce settings (in effect, the sensitivity of the trigger to input) is also not a semi-automatic, per my opinion, and probably provable as per the standards.
You eventually reach the point of having a "hair trigger" that becomes succeptible to inputs other than those intended, like wind blowing past it or shaking the gun.

[fallout11]

RRfireblade describes trigger bounce settings perfectly.

Lowering bounce (or debounce) to very low settings makes the trigger extremely sensitive, sometimes TOO sensitive.
The marker becomes unable to differentiate between an actual trigger pull and some other "motion".

Some players think this is great.
Those with any real firearms experience, however, are appalled.

[Beemer]

Well from that and what the ANSI says they wouldnt pass an ADT. not funny NOT SAFE

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by Beemer
Well from that and what the ANSI says they wouldnt pass an ADT. not funny NOT SAFE

Also in huge demand and selling by the thousands.:rolleyes:

[fallout11]

Too true!

One wonders what's next, cars that accelerate or brake "on their own"?

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by fallout11
Too true!

One wonders what's next, cars that accelerate or brake "on their own"?

That's already true.;) But let's not go O/T.

[Beemer]

Originally posted by fallout11
RRfireblade describes trigger bounce settings perfect.

Some players think this is great.
Those with any real firearms experience, however, are appalled.


Ya this would be me

[Beemer]

Wait till I make a thread "Is Your Marker Safe"
and is it ANSI conforming

[fallout11]

You know some people.....
They'll argue the earth is flat and red guns shoot further.
And that safety is for wussies.

[cledford]

Originally posted by GA Devil
with as much problems a cap would cause with paintball companies (actual Paintball) I dont see a cap happening. That means sales at events would drop for players. Sales of actual paintballs that is. Everyone in the industry seems to have their hand in each others pockets somewhere along the road so I dont see paintball manufacturers losing money just to cap ROF or loader manufacturers cause noby will run more then needed to save the wieght of the halo. to many ways for cheats as well. You can make a board do anything you want it to do when ever you want with the right programer. only way for them to check is a chrono sting which isnt happening in the middle of a game. As for what gun is slow or not...it gets the job done right? Thats what counts. But i wouldnt count on companies losing money just to slow the game down a bit.

Since there are only 2 force-feed loader on the market (warp and HALO) both produced by relatively small companies - who's to say that BE doesn't want to just kill the superior products by having them banned from competition. Another thing I've noticed is that most vendors seem to have their hands into the tournament side of the sport - I could see manipulation of the rules to promote a product or destroy another as something that is very possible...

-Calvin

[DementedRabbit]

I wonder if the successes of Mister Drew led to this ruling. What's the idiom? "Poison the well?"

There's a few scenes in Derder's 300fps that make me groan due to the amount of paint and the range involved. I'm surprised nobody has sustained serious injury due to getting shot on the top "vent" part of lenses, or where the foam meets the face on JT Spectra style masks. 14bps is probably the best compromise between speed and safety for now until protection standards are revised.

This would also do strange things to the paintball marker market, since lots of guns can reliably meet that bps limit, where do you go from there?

[cledford]

Originally posted by DementedRabbit
I wonder if the successes of Mister Drew led to this ruling. What's the idiom? "Poison the well?"

There's a few scenes in Derder's 300fps that make me groan due to the amount of paint and the range involved. I'm surprised nobody has sustained serious injury due to getting shot on the top "vent" part of lenses, or where the foam meets the face on JT Spectra style masks. 14bps is probably the best compromise between speed and safety for now until protection standards are revised.

This would also do strange things to the paintball marker market, since lots of guns can reliably meet that bps limit, where do you go from there?

Since markers cannot get any more accurate due to the nature of the projectile - and since I'm guessing that all can keep up at 14bps, it becomes a fan club decision on which to purchase. That having been said - instead of charging the "cart" because of the "horse" - why not just add another strap to the goggles and be done with it? It seems to me that a 5 cent strap added to the mask is lot easier then banning loaders and stifling marker advancement. It's a very low-tech fix as well - I call that elegant :)

-Calvin

[Meph]

Quick "solution" (aka band-aid)?

Remove force-feed hoppers. Or any hopper that can be clocked to feed faster than say.... 15bps. (To limit the introduction of the new Apache, obviously! since it ain't force feed, and then we all know BE would embrace how Halo has been saying egg "wasn't a true force feed" and get away with it).

If the hopper can't keep up, they can't shoot that fast. Right?

Exactly.










Oh wait, that's not happening. NPS owns the Halo, BE owns the Egg. They'd never allow that to happen. My bad. Promoters are more about $$$ than anything, so don't expect any actual solution from them.

[DementedRabbit]

Originally posted by cledford

It seems to me that a 5 cent strap added to the mask is lot easier then banning loaders and stifling marker advancement. It's a very low-tech fix as well - I call that elegant :)


I think I'm seeing those already. A few kids at my local field have the "helmet" mask(paint magnet) or have what looks like JT masks with chinstraps.

That's all fine, but what about those "soft ear" systems where there's a potential for a near-direct shot down someone's ear canal? We've all probably made people double over due to solid groin or throat shots. How many hits can someone actually take to the throat/adam's apple before the windpipe can swell shut?

I own a pretty fast marker(e-cocker) however if I manage to connect 10+ shots due to someone going through my lane wrong, at what point do I actually become legally liable for injuries sustained to another person? What about morally liable?

Maybe the best solution is to ban ANY kind of bare skin. I love playing with and against fast markers, but I don't want to see multiple-shot injuries becoming commonplace. My only agenda is to keep the sport relatively safe for everyone.

14bps sustained is still impressively fast.

[Dayspring]

FYI- NPS does NOT own the Halo. Manike confirmed this, as he works for National.


Originally posted by Meph

Oh wait, that's not happening. NPS owns the Halo, BE owns the Egg. They'd never allow that to happen. My bad. Promoters are more about $$$ than anything, so don't expect any actual solution from them.

[Meph]

So NPS didn't buy out Odyssey?


What are they then, just the official/only distributor? Could've sworn I read about Ody being bought by NPS.


Tell Gino to stock more than 3000 items! Jeez! Guy never has anything in stock, guess that happens when the warehouse is used to store all his 'Toys!'

[Beemer]

HotDog The Movie: To settle this we will have a chinese downhill. WTF is a chinese downhill.[in chinese accent]
First the rules: THERE ARE NO RULES


When E.F.Hutton talks[I mean NPPL]do people listen..anybody remember that commercial?




My only agenda is to keep the sport relatively safe for everyone.


own a pretty fast marker(e-cocker) however if I manage to connect 10+ shots due to someone going through my lane wrong, at what point do I actually become legally liable for injuries sustained to another person? What about morally liable?



How many hits can someone actually take to the throat/adam's apple before the windpipe can swell shut?

An uneducated uninformed consumer is a companies best friend
An uneducated uninformed player is the Games worst nightmare.

For every question I find an answer for I get 2 more unanswered. My list is getting longer not shorter.

Rogue made a comment in one of his threads that the companies were controlling the sport. Thats not true the player does. I was wrong. That can change.

From near as I can tell ANSI ASTM means nothing.
This game is truely on the edge.


WE HAVE TO ORGANIZE TO REGAIN CONTROLL

[Crazy]

Solution if this does **ACTUALLY** happen (which it wont)

PLAY PSP.

[Zumina]

Yes, a cap would be hard to enforce, but a limited paint rule isn't. 400 rnds per player would make a very interesting game.

Why isn't paintball televised? Pro ball is BOOOOOOOOOORING. I'd almost rather watch major league baseball than NPPL 10 man. If you think otherwise, you obviously have highlight footage confused with ACTUAL playing footage.

[Beemer]

Up to the top, for a thread that makes you say "Hmmmm"

Just like the other thread if youre watching

[Garrum]

Now, I wasn't playing back when the ban on full auto and assisted firing modes was introduced, but I have an idea of what the reasons behind the ban were.

1: To reduce the instances of 'overshooting'.

2: To keep the playing field even, so that guys with 'low end' guns (read that as 'costing less than a small house') could still have a chance against those who seek to buy victory through technology.

I would say that both of those goals have been circumvented and defeated. Completely.

Overshooting is now almost considered 'cool'. It is certainly overlooked and ignored by officials.

But more importantly, the ROF issue has gone completely out of control. People are talking about getting 18-20, even 22-25 BPS strings. Long strings. On a consistant basis. Where is the difference in that and full auto?

"I'm doing it manually, with skill, and full auto is just holding a trigger back." I can hear some saying. First off, that isn't a skill. That's just your body's ability to twitch faster than most people. You can hone it, but you can't learn it. And second, you couldn't do that on any legitimate trigger. By legitimate, I mean something that will pass a 3 foot, hard surface drop test, and that doesn't use electronics (with awfully shady programming) to actuate the sear for you. Going by those criteria, the ROF would drop like fecal matter in a deep, cold, cistern.

But of course, realistic ROFs would 'devastate' the paint companies, so I see two possible paths to take.

1: Leave it like it is, and let these bogus 'semi-auto' ROF's keep on climbing, limiting the upper levels of the game to those who drink too much coffee, and those who twitch really good. Pro's: Paint companies stay happy. The twitchers stay happy. The Con's: The non twitchers stay excluded.

2: Reauthorize the use of full auto guns in tournament play. No BPS cap. No ammo limit. The Pro's: Paint companies begin having massive sexual orgies, twenty four hours a day, with their massive influx of income. Non-twitchers get to play on the same ROF footing as the twitchers. The Con's: Everyone finally gets to see that jittery fingers and ridiculous triggers was just about all that separated the pro's and little Johnny with his e-framed, Halo fed Pihranna, and that ROF can make up for almost anything on an airball field.

Of course, I'm being a little over the top. But not by much. Several times, I have played woodsball against people who's only real ability is to hurl a mass of paint very fast. I have had superior position, good cover, and a team mate helping me, all at the same time, and he still got me out by simply saturatng my location with an endless stream of paint. After about five seconds of this, a freak ball curved in behind my cover and broke on me. Was there any skill in that elimination? No, just twitchy digits and freakish luck. Just like a lot of eliminations in Tournaments.

The simple fact is that hosing down a lane or bunker and locking down movement is very effective, but it has no skill involved. And it would not be possible without unrealistic trigger pulls. Bring the triggers back in line, and then we will see who is an *** kicker, who is a mouse clicker.

(For the record, I am NOT an *** kicker.)

[cledford]

Garrum,

Very nice post...

Like the sig also ;)

-Calvin

[hitech]

I agree with pretty much everything in your post, except…


Originally posted by Garrum
And second, you couldn't do that on any legitimate trigger. By legitimate, I mean something that will pass a 3 foot, hard surface drop test, and that doesn't use electronics (with awfully shady programming) to actuate the sear for you.

The trigger in my eMag would pass a three-foot drop and not fire. It doesn’t use any awfully shady programming. I don’t have one of those super light, super short, hair triggers. I can attain 18bps for a second, maybe more. :D

BTW, I normally don’t exceed 7bps or so in game play. I rarely use any “trigger techniques” to increase ROF. I just pull the trigger. If I really need suppressive fire I currently just fan the trigger a little (I do 10bps fanning). However, I am considering “tuning up” my emag so it will handle 20bps and using the “manike raking technique” in a game. I guess the ROF wars has gotten to me too. ;) I might change my mind if I start overshooting people.