Something that bothers me - US Bombing

[Chaos]

I just wanted to say, I'm very sorry for all that was lost, and all that will be, but I also wanted to state something that twists my noodle. When Columbine was hit, the world lashed out for someone to blame. With this, since they were young americans, they obviously cant blame society or the government, so they lash out at whatever else they can. SO then who gets blamed? Very talented and inspirational artists like Marilyn Manson. Yes I realize most of you dont like them, but I just wanted to point this out. I wouldn't be alive without people like him, and society lash's out when something like Columbine happens. Now another big event happens, only now its adults and the terrorists arn't from America. Yes I realize these arn't the same instances, but now they cant lash out at someone like Manson, so people are searching for someone to blame. So society now is looking for anyone that isn't American to blame. Why? Because people are stupid.

Also, far chance, but suppose the attackers would have been american? I know there are many anarchy groups and such that are located in America. Then who would you blame?

[MagMan5446]

This is nothing alike the Columbine. You're right, we needed something to blame for the kids going psycho, we blamed because we need a problem for us to solve. We are yet to find that.


In this scenario, we basically know who did it. A group, led by Osmar le badan or something like that who we also tried to kill, that is located in Afgahnistan did it. We are almost positive that they did. We will punish the culprits and the ones that harbor them.

There are other groups that are bragging that they did it, but that is expected with all big terroism acts. The Liberation Army is claiming that they did it. But they don't have as much against us as the Afgahnistan group. When Osmar le Badan found out that we were trying to kill him, he was angered. He said that every American was a potential target. He had a motive. There are surely other reasons, but I do not know them, maybe someone else does though.

[thei3ug]

I'm pretty sure Bin Laden listens to "abudabudabuda!" and not "Got my lunchbox and i'm armed real well...."

Think about it, and make your own conclusions.

[Webmaster]

You also need to realize that the two incidents had radically different motivations.

Comlubine was two twisted and depressed punks who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory.

And on that note - pop culture has ALWAYS been blamed on juevenile deliquentcy. Heck - those campy comic books in the 50s were deemed to violent - and they burned alot of them and set up a censorship organization. Music and television and movies has always been a scape coat - get used to it.

Bin Lauden's motivation is that he has been choosen by got do fight and destroy our heathenistic western way of life. He is a radical Muslim with extremist views.

[TheTramp]

Did he really just say that Americans are stupid for looking for someone outside of America to blame for this? Does he really feel that there isn't some one/group responsible for this and they shouldn't be held accountable? I wonder if he would feel that those of us with friends who worked in the World Trade Center are less stupid if he were waiting for conformation that four of his friends that he hasn't heard from went down with the towers.

[Eagle]

When in war, whether one is fighting a cause, a nation, or a faction, it must be clear from the onset, before the hostilities begin, to the common soldiers and to the leaders, that this is how it will be:

I will kill your mother and father, your brother and sister, your dogs and cats and horses and sheeps and pigs. I will poison your water and burn you house to the ground. I will kill your kids and your wife. I shall no mercy to anyone or anything aligned with you. I shall inflict so much personal grief, pain, suffering and outrage, that as a person, you will have one of two choices:

Surrender or die

[azzkikr]

whoever did this will see the cosequenses, I for one wish to be part of it.

[Flamebo]

What the hell does an act of war have to do with a couple psychotic kids?? The United States was ATTACKED by some sort of group, country, or organization, it wasn't just a crime of insanity.

What happened yesterday was very possibly the worst act ever committed in a time of peace, and someone must be held accountable for this. We've suffered a financial loss estimated at $20 billion, and thousands of priceless American lives.

I don't know what the hell this has to do with Marylin Manson, but every federal investigator in the country is trying to find out who DID conspire to commit this crime. If we were just trying to take it out on non-Americans, the entire Middle East would be a crater in the earth by now.

Anarchists by definition aren't interested in mass-murdering thousands of people, they are interested in the absence of government and control. Some anarchists choose to use forceful resistance and terrorism in an attempt to fulfill this idea. If a group or organization of these violent anarchists was to blame, then they would be the ones held accountable.

Most people agree that this is the work of Osama/Usama bin Ladin, which is why we are trying to locate him -- to give the consequences to the guilty.

[Chris]

I believe that all Chaos is commenting on is the tendancy for Americans, people in general, to jump all over the first person they can find to be a scapegoat for any type of problem. Nobody wants to accept the responsibility for their own actions, and they feel the need to blame someone for their problems regardless of whom is actually at fault.

With Columbine, we would never blame the kids or their parents or even the other children in the school for driving Kleebold and Harris (I think those are the two gunmen) to shooting many of their classmates. We had to lash out on any provocative artist that they may have listened to, any movie that they may have watched...something to push the blame away from the parents and other children around them. Fact is, the two kids were outcasts, constantly teased by the others in their school. For any of you who have been there...can you honestly say that you never thought "I wish they were dead"? Granted, most people never act out on these thoughts...but many many of us have thought them. Well, for some those thoughts are too difficult to put away and let go. They need an outlet.

As for this bombing, I think the media and everyone in this country needs to be very cautious right now. There is much speculation that Osama Bin Laden is responsible for this attack. There is no positive proof though. Unfortunately, some people are already lashing out on the Arab-Americans in this country. It is a shame that some people resort to this type of hate crime. We do need to punish those responsible for the terrorist attack, but we do not need to jump to conclusions. Right now, there are no facts leading to any one group in particular. We need to keep this in mind.

-Chris

[Webmaster]

See - thats where Chaos's logic is wierd...

In Columbine we KNEW who was responsible - but we looked for a scapecoat as to WHY it happend - or what caused this to happen.

In the WTC incident - we arent looking for a scapecoat - we are looking for those repsponsible.

Yes - you are right, there is speculation that bin lauden is responsible - and not alot of proof yet. But Vegas odds are on him as he is one of the very few people with the money and resources to pull this off.

[Flamebo]

I disagree, the majority of logical Americans knew that the Columbine killers were a product of their own dementia. Except for a few radical anti-gun groups with political motives other than prevention of tragedies who got the attention of mass-media, everyone I spoke to knew that these were twisted individuals.

We cannot blame every Arab-American we see because of this, but we must be aware of the highly suspected countries, and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence pointing to bin Ladin and the Arab nations. Something big must be done, and it must be done soon.

[thecavemankevin]

We need to place the blame soally on those responsible, not inocent Arabic Americans or any other forigner.
Not only that, these people were motivated by something many of us probably will never understand completely. I am not even sure of it. I can only imagine that they saw us as the enemy and felt we needed to pay.

Now for the kids at Colombine, the adults saw that they listened to music like Marilyn Manson, and play video games like Doom. Now many adults don't understand this and don't like it because it is not civilized. So there forth they think it must have something to do with their actions because they dress and seem to act in a similar manor.

That is why Manson, and video games get blamed. It is all part of this mass confusion called life.

[MinimagRockin']

I don't believe what we are doing now is anything like what we did after the columbine incident. After columbine we knew who did it and they were dead and there wasn't anything we could do about it, which in turn frustrated the hell out of us so we blamed music and tv and video games (just for the record im all for free speech so preach on marylin, but for gods sake hes not inspirational and not even close to talented). Moving on. In this instance some group (most likely not americans) came into our country took our planes with our people on them and crashed them into our buildings. In this case we don't know who did it but when we do there should be hell to pay. No two ways about it. Trying to defend these guys is not something many sane americans are going to agree with you on. Also I don't think there are many instances of what you refer to as singling out arabs in america, it's certainly not happening on a huge scale like you seem to believe, but I do agree with you that it should not be tolerated.

[speedballbanks]

i say we nuke all them rock throwing street dancing towel heads oh yeah this is not directed to any one who is israli or palestinian or afghanistan that is a u.s. citizen just the idiots over seas that dance in the streets cause people die. children have died and they are dancing i say kill em all and for any a.oers who have lost family in the wtc, pentagon, or outside of pitsburgh my condolences but no mercy should be taken on the group that have done this to us .:mad:

[riooso]

Sand turns to glass when heated. When they find bin Laden "we" should turn the desert for a ten mile diameter into a bowl. He has already been proven to be responsible for the embassy bombing. Do it now!


R

[speedballbanks]

rock on brotha lets do it oh yeah that was pretty funny about the sand truning into glass

that is fun to do to

[-Jôker-]

i dont think it was ben laden...hes all about car bombs...not flying planes into buildings....hes not about hijacking planes...

[pumpamatic]

Speedball, we can't exactly blame them for celebrating. They don't know the whole story. They have no freedom of speech, therefore they can't open up a newspaper and read how the U.S. is. Their government just puts the thought in their heads that America is bad. Who we can blame is their government.

[AGD-OfficeGal]

It would be better to stay away from name-calling like "towel-heads" - that's the beginning of racial hatred.

As for nuking "them," I have to agree with others who have posted that the use of nuclear weapons would be inappropriate due to the widespread danger from fallout.

Suppose Osama Bin Laden did give the orders that resulted in these attacks. Was this done because he wanted to, or was he hired? If he was hired, by whom? Man, I'd like nothing better than to see us charge off and blast the SOBs who did this - but first we have to be sure we have the right people.

I was pleased today by NATO's resolution saying the attack on the U.S. was an attack on all of NATO. Waiting to see what the U.N. has to say.

Marcia
AGD Front Office

[Chris]

Minimagrockin

If you think, for one second, that I am defending the people who did this...pull your head out of your butt and think again. My point was simply this; we need place blame solely where it belongs, not blame someone/something that has nothing to do with the situation. Columbine, we knew who did the crime, but had to put blame somewhere other than on the parents (we as americans can do no wrong in raising our kids), couldnt be that the kids in school drove them to shoot everyone (kids in school would never make fun/ostricise each other) but rather, we had to blame video games and singers. With this terrorist attack, we dont know who did it, but we are trying desprately to place blame. Some people are blaming the first people they see as suspects, without proof. We had no proof that playing video games started the columbine incident, and we have no proof that the arabs did this bombing. Somehow, both have been blamed for columbine and this attack respectively.

Do you now see why I said they were somehow related? It is not because the children from columbine orchestrated this terrorist attack, nor was it that the terrorists had anything to do with columbine. The only relationship is that people jump to conclusions as to who/what is to blame.

-Chris

[MinimagRockin']

I appreciate your elaboration on the subject, I see your point a little better. One thing though, I don't think the columbine crazies were "driven" by anyone. So kids ostricise and make fun....in no way does that make what they did even a little itty bitty bit more acceptable. There should be no excuses for the columbine nuts just as there should be none for the WTC whackos.

[pbtaz]

Eagle, I have to say that your comment was truely sick and twisted. I pray that you are not in the military or if you are that you are simply too young to understand what exactly you are saying.

I want blood just as much as any other American out there. Being in the military myself, I hope and pray that if we do get sent, I am one the ones called to go. This is not out of some macho "let's kill them all" trip. This is about justice for all those who died innocently.

However, I would never in my worst nightmares think about killing unarmed women, children, or men. Innocent people, no mattter what their beliefs or prejudices do not deserve to die. I agree that those responsible in any way must be erradicated. PERIOD. And I also understand that if we send in ground forces to do this that many innocent people will most likely be hurt or killed. This is not the goal however, it is a tragedy. War itself is not glamorous. It is not good, ever, even in this case. Sometimes however it is necesary. But even when it is necessary, one must try to never allow the horrors of war to affect those who are not involved. Even though this is not possible, it must be attempted to preserve what little shread of securtiy the local populace has.

If any of the troops in my command ever shot or shot at innocent people, or tried in any way to destroy the local ecology for the purpose of directly hurting the local innocent populace, I would ensure that they get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the UCMJ and tried as a war criminal.

[shartley]

-Jôker-
No offense bud, but I think you need to do some more thinking and research….


i dont think it was ben laden...hes all about car bombs...not flying planes into buildings....hes not about hijacking planes...

With all the facts and what the actual attack was, how can you say that? He is NOT all about car bombs. He is about so much more. But you are correct about him not being about Hijacking planes… however, you have to keep in mind that this was NOT a classic Hijacking for the classic reasons and end results. It was to gain large WEAPONS and use them to inflict as much Terror and Damage as he could.. and THIS is what he IS about.

I find it strange that all the Experts agree that he is a prime suspect, but you would think otherwise. I would love to hear any supporting information and facts that you may have that better support your statement.

Thanks.

[Chris]

Minimagrockin

Again, I am not making excuses for, nor condoning the actions taken by the columbine madmen. I am saying, very simply, that we need to put blame where it belongs. Examples of that were parenting, or the other children in school. Not the video games we all play. I have made no excuses for what they did, it seems to me though that all the people saying that marilyn manson music had something to do with it are. Before we all jump to conclusions in any situation, we need to know all the facts. Plain and simple.

-Chris

[MinimagRockin']

At columbine, I agree, we did place blame where it didn't belong (music, tv, movies) but in this case I don't see that happening at all. We don't know for sure who did it yet but all the fingers that are being pointed seem to be logical.

[Chaos]

Thank you Chris, you actually understood what I was saying unlike many others.

As for something being inspirational or not, its what you see in it not what someone tells you. The bible does not have one set 'inspiration' yet many people find it inspirational. I find Marilyn Manson inspiration, I dont find the bible inspirational, but thats what I feel. Therefor you saying Marilyn Manson is uninspirational and he has no talent is just concieded and pathetic :)

[Evil Bob]

Your girlfriend breaks up with you for no reason at all. You ask "why", maybe she just doesn't like you any more, maybe she doesn't want to tell you, but you still ask "why", you cry and you're irrational and in complete shock, and you need to find out what you did wrong if anything at all, driven from the heart, like a hurt animal, without any rational thought.

Look at Columbine, everyone wanted to know why those kids did what they did, so they grasped at straws, looked at what those kids like to do, and they targeted violent video games and rap music. Lets ignore the parents not teaching their kids to respect life, lets ignore the kids taking the time to make 20+ pipe bombs in the garage and the parents not knowing anything at all, lets ignore all the premeditation and planning and the time these kids put into their heinous act, and target tangibles that society would like to see gone in the first place. "They were being harrassed, they just had to lash out to be understood." It's all about excusism, pick something out you don't like and make it fit a heinous crime and explain it all away, hopefully some nutcase in a courtroom will pass a law that prohibits the use of that stuff you don't like. "Yeah, they did it because they thought they were playing 'Doom' for real." or "It was that wicked music they listened to, Satan made them do it." "Hey, we found this expert who says Doom can teach you to be a killer, this will do all kinds of damage, we'll win our case and get millions for sure!" "Can we say they were abused as children? That's always worked in the past...." "Did you find any hidden messages on the Marilyn Manson CD? We've got to get that in there somehow, he's just to wierd to pass up."

Watch the news, everyone is milling around in big crowds at the remains of the twin towers holding candle light vigils, and the media is in their face asking "why". Damnit, leave them alone, they're trying to come to terms with what's happened and make their peace, they don't need you in their face. The morons with the mic and the camera want to know "why", they keep asking people "why", society needs an answer, we have to know "why". Like emotionless robots they move from person to person stating the obvious. They film people leaping to their deaths from the 110th floor and show it distastefully on TV over and over again and ask "why would someone do that? What was going through his mind at the time he jumped?" They show us hour after hour the plane striking the second tower from every possible angle they can get film of. "Why would someone do this?" they keep asking us. And we sit and watch, like deer caught in headlights...

In Columbine, the answer to "why" was because the kids wanted to get revenge on those that had harrassed them and go out in a blaze of glory, but that wasn't sufficient for society, especially when there was money to be made in suing the video game and music industry, society wants a scapegoat, and they want to make money on it if they can. Obviously these kids aren't capable of doing things of their own accord, there must be an outside influence here, some reason "why". "They must have been temporarily insane or something. They're old enough to be drafted into the military, but not old enough to reason as adults and be held responsible for their own actions."

Yesterday, the answer to "why" was because someone wanted to kill Americans in the worst way, and using flying bombs fully loaded with fuel was the only way they could strike at Americans. They aimed at big targets that represent freedom, democracy, power, and financial security. Their "why" was to do as much damage to life and idealism as they could. The buildings they struck had only one weakness, air attack. The terrorist had tried a ground attack on the towers two years before, and it didn't get them very far. The twin towers had their own ventalation systems that were designed to prevent chemical and biological attacks from getting in, so that wouldn't work either. The garage had been beefed up since the previous attack came in through that way, no go there too, so the only way the terrorists could attack was from the air. Simple, fly a large 100 ton aircraft full of fuel into the building and make it collaspe.

Same with the Pentagon. It's even got a restricted air space over it where no one is supposed to fly. But you know what? You fly into it, you don't get shot down, you get yelled at and get fined, a good healthy slap on the wrist, be a good boy and don't do that again. You can't get near it on the ground, it's got it's own power, air, and water filtration systems, it's completely self sufficient, the only way in is to hit it from the air.

Is it me or is society in general a complete dumb shi*?

"Why" society asks. It's really simple, it was the only way they could attack and get the results they wanted. Same with Columbine, the kids threw pipe bombs and shot people, it was the only way they could get the results they wanted. The kids in Columbine hated the jocks and those that harrassed them, the terrorists hated America and what it represents. It's all about hate. Someone hates someone else. Someone hates how they're treated or how they dress or how they behave, or how they whorship, or how they live. I've traveled all over this Earth, I've seen seething hatred and murderous looks directed at me for no other reason than the fact that I hold a US passport. I hate you, so I'm going to lash out at you. "Those Americans, so successful in business, I hate them. So pushy worldwide, how dare they tell me I can't slaughter the Kurds or use them to test my chemicals munitions, who does the US think they are? If I want to invade Kuwait, they shouldn't stop me, they should mind their own business. What do they care, greedy nosy Americans. How dare they tell me I can't fly planes over my own airspace!"

Use your brain, think before you act, think things through, be part of the solution and not part of the problem. You now know "why", deal with it and get on with life.

Our founding fathers came to this continent in search of freedom and tolerance, to get away from people of hate and persecution. Here they created a society unlike any other on the Earth, with recognised inalienable rights for everyone. America is the envy of the rest of the world. We're resourceful, we're inventive, we're accepting, we're patient, we're filthy rich, we have all the good jobs, we make all the best films. But, like everyone else, we're human, and being human we have our weaknesses, we know it and we're trying to deal with it. We make mistakes just like everyone else. Yeah, we've got our problems, no one is perfect, but we're trying to better ourselves. The US is the place to be, you can do anything you want here, be as succesful as you want, its all up to you. You decide who and what you want to be, that's your choice to make, that's what freedom is all about.

So what is it about freedom that makes people want to blow us up when it would have been much simpler and easier to just join us?

Evil Bob

[MinimagRockin']

So you thinking Marylin Manson being inspirational is completely alright but if I think otherwise it is considered pathetic? That pretty much contradicts everything you just said in your last post. Also if he is inpirational to you that's fine, I believe you, but you should not refer to him as being inspirational to everyone, because I have a feeling many musicians (myself included) as well as many non-musicians would disagree with you. I feel he is a crappy performer who relies on novelties instead of talent to achieve fame while at the same time preaching complete garbage that for some reason kids believe.

[MinimagRockin']

Evil Bob you seem to be right on track but I would like to share a few different views:

1. All the tv coverage of this incident, I believe, is good. It is a form of propoganda that every country gets to see. If we didn't have those airplanes crashing on tape, our argument for retaliation would be weakend. It would still be worthy but with those terrible tapes of people jumping etc it shows people just how ****ed up these terrorists are.

2. This is the umpteenth time I have seen or heard someone say it's not music and video games we should be blaming the columbine incident but the parents of the kids or maybe it was because they were made fun of at school. This argument is just as ludicrous as blaming it on tv and video games. Your telling me that because the two columbine boys were harrassed at school it's a good justification for them to blaze into a school with an arsenal? I think not! As for them making 20 pipe bombs in their garage without getting caught is also not so difficult. Pipe bombs are relatively small, simple, and easy to make. Any kid with two working parents, some knowledge, and a hiding place could accomplish what they did without getting caught.

3. Last but not least (and I don't mean to nitpick) but using a flying bomb is not the ONLY way someone could strike at america, it is about the WORST and most destructive way someone could have struck america.