Anybody want to REALLY know what AKA's customer service is about?

[cledford]

After having invested in 2 Vikings, all of the trimmings for a second (Tool kit, eyes, covers, SCM), and a host of their cocker parts (Sidewinder, Tornado Valve, Lightening bolt, back block & pin, pump rod) all I asked for was a SCM that worked - and below is what I get from the Alexanders.

For those unaware of the issue I purchased a SCM for my '03 Viking and it didn't work when I installed it. It was creeping dangerously high - enough to not only cause damage to my marker, but also to me or anyone I happened to shoot. I came here and ultimately found out that AKA had an UNANNOUCED recall on the SCMs and that mine was a first generation that needed to be updated. Funny how that never got posted here at PBN, and there is no mention of in any where else either, SAY THEIR WEB-SITE!

Anyhow, I send the $95 SCM in for the "upgrade" and get it back 10 days later with a note that says "updated to current build and pressure tested -AKA."

I immediately put the SMC on the gun (which still had the LPR kit hooked up) and guess what? It was STILL creeping - a little slower, but still not working properly and still likely dangerous. So I send it back a SECOND time. Let's keep in mind that the shipping, insurance and initial cost of the unit put the investment at that point at around ~$111 bucks for a part that still wasn't working. So, back it goes with a letter expressing my disappointment - which I feel I was entirely right in expressing. I've been a loyal customer and frankly, as much as AKA parts cost compared to the competition, failure (twice) is completely unacceptable. I asked that I be sent a new SCM that had been tested to work before leaving AKA.

Here is the response I got in the mail along with an $89 check that didn't even cover what I paid retail for the SCM:

ATTN: Calvin Ledford
FROM: Eileen Alexander
RE: SCM

Enclosed you will find a check for $89 for your SCM. It is evident that we do not make an SCM that fits your criteria.

For the benefit of both of us we request that you do not in the future purchase any AKA products.

Sincerely,

Eileen B. Alexander
Sales Manager

Now how's that for customer service? I've always had my doubts about the business sense of AKA, but not any longer. I can't imagine any other company that would have the gall to, having failed the customer twice, to quit and ask that customer to never purchase their product again. I'm just flabbergasted - they produce a part that doesn't work when new, doesn't work after one trip back, and then have the nerve to send a letter out like the one above? Next time you think about buying AKA, think again.

-Calvin

[hitech]

That is, well, unbelievable. Was something in the letter you sent that pissed them off that much? Not that they should respond that way, but it would at least be a reason. Any chance of posting the letter?

Still seems unbelievable. :(

[PolishSausage]

Wow, I wouldn't expect that from ANY company, and definitely not AKA. I'm shocked, thats horrible customer service. I may rethink getting a Viking.

[Tunaman]

Same thing happened with the boards...they sucked too. I dont know what all the hype is about with these big, clunky, slow, no quality control pieces of junk. Thank SOMEONE that we have AGD...now THEY are a great company with GREAT products! Long Live AGD!;) :o :D

[pbguy888]

wow...Thats like all I can say...:(

[JEDI]

Wow man. That is pretty rediculous. My only thought is that your letter to them was completely out of line, (but I doubt it) That still wouldn't warrant such a response.
Thats a pretty clear case of poor business practice. I'm sorry you were the victom dude.

[DWill]

Type what you put in the letter for our enjoyment :)

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by Eileen Alexander

For the benefit of both of us we request that you do not in the future purchase any AKA products.


Damn dude. Talk about a pissy mood.

Unless your letter was just as pissy. Care to post it?

[cledford]

I'll admit that my letter was quite "unhappy" but not out of line - I was disapointed, but feel that I spoke my piece (as needed to) respectfully.

LMK,

-Calvin

AKALMP
16 South Keystone Ave
Indianapolis, IN 46201
(317) 631-7200

Calvin Ledford
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

To Whom It May Concern:

Enclosed is my SCM and a copy of the last correspondence I sent AKA regarding it’s ongoing issue. I am returning the SCM a second time, because even after being returned for service once already, it still does not function correctly and is exhibiting behavior likely to damage my marker and possibly cause injury. I insist that it be REPLACED with a new and fully tested unit. I am sorry if this sounds demanding, but for $95, and now a second return trip to AKA, I expect and deserve a piece of equipment that functions as it should with no further headaches. A brief explanation of the matter follows.

I returned my SCM on the first occasion on November 24th, 2003. I installed it a few days prior using the AKA LPR kit for my ’03 Viking and noticed immediately that it exhibited an alarming inability to stay set a constant output pressure and would rapidly climb from ~75psi to 95 in a matter of minutes. After posting on the Paintball Nation AKA forum I determined that the SCM was a first generation model that needed to be upgraded to the current build. I called and spoke to Christina who asked that I send the part back for update. I received the SCM back from AKA about 10 days later. It had a note attached that stated “updated to current build and pressure tested –AKA.” As soon as I received the SCM back I reinstalled it to verify that it was working correctly. TO MY DISMAY, it functions slightly better, BUT STILL HAS THE SAME PROBLEM. When I set the SCM at the desired output of ~75psi it will creep to over 90psi during a 30-40 minute period if left unfired. It will reach over 80psi in about a 10 minute period of time. As I am sure you are aware such increases in pressure can not only lead to damage of the solenoid, but also shots that exceed established safety limits for velocity. I posted this information to the AKA forum and was given some additional advice on how to “seat the reg seat” which I tried to no avail.

I am sending the SCM back later then I expected due to commotion related to the holiday season. If there is any concern that the product was not malfunctioning upon return please refer to the following 2 posts in the PBN AKA forum. The dates on the threads show that although I’m returning the part a few weeks after I received it back from you, I received it not functioning.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=365998&highlight=%2Bscm
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=371085&highlight=%2Bscm

As a long time customer of AKA, dating back to the original LP autococker parts that you produced long before the Excalibur and Viking were products, I am EXTREMELY dismayed by my experience with the SCM. I invest in AKA parts because I believe them to be “best of breed” when compared to peers within the same category. AKA parts have never been cheap and in fact are usually double the cost of competing products, and are usually engineered many times better. The SCM appears to be an exception to the second part of this rule. In my mind, considering the cost of AKA parts, there should be a 100% expectation of performance and reliability out of the box. To have needed to send the product back once is unacceptable to me and twice is beyond comprehension. My long time faith in AKA products have been shaken by this experience and a quick search of the AKA forums for “SCM problems” (of which there seems to be a number of posts) does nothing to help my lagging confidence.

This debacle has cost me over $115 dollars (cost plus shipping for 2 trips back to AKA) and counting and I still don’t have a functioning part. Please replace the SCM I am returning you with a new and fully tested unit. I am sorry if I sound disgruntled, impatient and inflexible, but as stated above, I pay top dollar for AKA parts and therefore expect top performance. If prices for AKA components were inline with peer products I may be willing to cut some slack. Since that is not the case, when I pay double, I expect consistency, performance and quality and especially do not expect that my time be wasted with multiple trips to the post office to get device functioning that should have worked correctly from the start. Although I understand that occasionally a “lemon” slips though the cracks, in the case of you products 2 return trips to the factory is simple unacceptable.

I would love to hear back from you regarding this matter and would very much appreciate whatever courtesy beyond replacing the SCM you would like to extend to make up for my time and expense invested in this matter.

My return shipping address is posted above.

Calvin Ledford

[cphilip]

I know Calvin pretty darn well I and can tell you he knows how to write a formal dignified letter and I know without seeing it that he did nothing to recieve such a ludicrous reponse. Its not in his nature at all. Its not him at all. I think its evident that they cannot fix it nor want to fix it. It's probably a serious design flaw that they well know about and would prefer not anyone else know about. And they cannot fix it. So they just would rather ignore it and keep selling them to unsuspecting kids. Which I suspect they think Calvin is. But little do they know they did not deal with some kid. They are assuming he will just go away and not bother them anymore and they probably felt he would be threatened by that response into being quite and not bothering them anymore. Little did they know huh? Problem is they put it in writing. Now it's not only a fact but a DOCUMENTED fact! Go get em Calvin.

[GT]

I guess all you guys were asleep when I got slapped with 70 dollar charge to "fix" my "lifetime warrentied" viking. That was after it had only been in my hands for like 2 weeks..

[cphilip]

I posted while Calvin was posting

Nothing wrong with that at all Calvin. I suspect they just can't stand any critisim. And so be it. They lose. They didn't even defend themselves or appologise. Which you were due. Unbelieveable.... Really is.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cledford
To have needed to send the product back once is unacceptable to me and twice is beyond comprehension.

Reading JUST that I would not want to deal with a customer that felt that way. You can never be 100% sure products will work.

However…


Originally posted by cledford
I am sorry if I sound disgruntled, impatient and inflexible, but as stated above, I pay top dollar for AKA parts and therefore expect top performance…Although I understand that occasionally a “lemon” slips though the cracks, in the case of you products 2 return trips to the factory is simple unacceptable.

That seems to clear it up. You are willing to pay top dollar and want top quality. It would seem that if you are a company that wants to produce top quality products, this would make you very happy. A customer that is willing to pay for it! I guess they don’t want to make top quality products.

I’ll bet they didn’t get that far in the letter. Probably didn’t read the whole thing. They probably stopped somewhere near the first quote. There is no reason for that. Yes, it wasn’t a “happy” letter. Yes, it is demanding. However, you even apologized for that. You would think that a customer apologizing for the tone of their letter would go a long way. :eek: How many customers do that? :rolleyes:

[agdemagman69]

Wow, thats really harsh from AKA

I returned my 2k3 Viking for an SCM shootdown problem last year with a letter appropriating the problem, and when they recieved and tested the SCM and could not find any problem, they personally contacted me over the phone to get more details about it.

I even got everything back with no problem.

They've seemed a little shaky since they got attacked by SP on christmas

[FallNAngel]

At first after reading the letter a few lines into it I was thinking "hmm... not sounding too happy here", after reading a bit more... (at the cost of sounding "nerdy")DAMN, that's a nice letter. Like I said before, I'd send another letter to the President asking them if that's really how they conduct business with their loyal customers (and include a copy of the letter they sent you) and tell them you want the best of the best... which is what you thought AKA products were. If this isn't true, please refund the extra $40 for the shipping to "repair" the SCM and that you'll take your business elsewhere. I'd be quite surprised if they respond the same way. If they do, they'll be losing much more than one loyal customer.

[Rope a Dope]

I still can't get over the fact they sent you a check for your SCM and said "Don't buy our crap again."

I mean... DAMN!

Yeah, I hope AKA reads this, I won't be buying or recommending any of your products ever again. I am a webmaster for a local field and I have a forum on my website. I have a section just for AKA because there are two AKA techs that frequent the field, I have linked this thread on that forum for all to see just how much respect you show your customers.

Thanks for the recommendation for cledford to not purchase anymore of your products, I'll be sure to do the same along with a lot of other people!

[DWill]

Wow that is not a appropriate response from AKA...I suspect they only read the first part of the letter, Eileen was in a bad mood, or you just rubbed them the wrong way, which doen't really seem likely because what you said in that letter was perfectly justified. I hope your problems work out

[sslecyk03]

wow that is really shady. I would never had expected that coming from AKA. And like someone said before me, send in your letter again and AKA's response to their president and see what kind of response you get than. Id be realllly interested in finding out.

[FutureMagOwner]

jeeze i had a similar problem with odyssey (which they are now working on the halo again to get it to work) and i was bit more pissy then you were about it (which from my reading it seemed like you were upset but a simple fix of the problem would have satisfied you) and i got a much better response (a rep told me to send it directly to him and he would take care of it first thing before anything else) which made me much happier (only thing that could mess with that is if they try to stick me with a bogus bill for parts that they gave me broken...)

[DementedRabbit]

Where did you buy the SCM? I've seen a few online retailers go a long way to stand behind their products, and I'm sure dealer feedback goes much further than customer feedback.

[Lohman446]

I could have understood a response such as - we are experience an abnormal problem with the SCM (what in the name of the heavens is an SCM) and do not feel that we can meet your expectations at this time. We thank you for your past and future patronage and have enclosed a check to cover your costs, as well as a coupon for ten percent off your next order from AKA. We apologize for any inconvenience.

But to be unable to satisfy a customer, and tell them to go away and never by any of your products again... well you likely dont need my opinion of that to know what I think of it.

BTW, your letter was not out of line, returning a high end part once is not necessarily a need for alarm - and you even stated that, occassionally lemons slip through, to have to do it a second time is unheard of.. Remember the ULE body issues - TK stated, oops, heres the fix, if your not happy with it you get a refund on return. This is what I expect, and why I love AGD - yes they may be a touch slow on some things, a touch expensive on some things (debatable) but they have good quality control, and are as loyal to me as a customer as I am them a company.

[FallNAngel]

the AKA SCM is an LPR

[Mango]

DAMN! That is harsh. I never understood the craze with their guns anyway. The sad part is they will still make money. They don't care. More kiddies will want Vikings and crap and the cycle continues. :o

[jdev]

what are the chances that you improperly installed the SCM somehow? sure the problem isn't something else with the marker, and not just the SCM. If I had this problem, I would have sent my entire marker to AKA for them to test that on, and insisted that you not be charged for the product that didn't work in the first place.

not trying to say this didn't happen, as it obviously did, but, are you sure there is no slight possibility it was something you may have done in the process that sort of helped this problem arise?

[cledford]

Originally posted by joey d
what are the chances that you improperly installed the SCM somehow? sure the problem isn't something else with the marker, and not just the SCM. If I had this problem, I would have sent my entire marker to AKA for them to test that on, and insisted that you not be charged for the product that didn't work in the first place.

not trying to say this didn't happen, as it obviously did, but, are you sure there is no slight possibility it was something you may have done in the process that sort of helped this problem arise?

I don't think so. It is a straight forward installation with written instructions. Furthermore, when I re-installed the stock LPR with no troubles AFTER the SCM continued to act up. To be quite honest, I'd see a number of posts about SCM issues when I went looking. It appeared that they are (or at least were) having QC issues with them. Lump on top of that the fact that they never publicly acknowledge a recall/update/upgrade (or whatever) and I was a little ticked. I used their LPR kit to do the install and my honest opinion (after having 10+ years experience working on guns) is that it was just a bad unit.

-Calvin

[Wes Janson]

To translate FallNAngel's reply, the SCM is a low pressure regulator. What I want to know is why it failed like that, and why such a letter as that ever possibly was sent. I wonder what possessed them to do such a thing..that almost goes beyond bad customer service. I look forward to seeing what happens with this.. Good luck!

[davidb]

Pathetic? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Unbelieveable? Not really.

Still and all, there's really only one explanation for all of this: Jim Drew's been talking about you, Calvin! :D ;)

[theraidenproject]

Originally posted by cledford It is evident that we do not make an SCM that fits your criteria.
Admit it, cledford, your criteria is pretty harsh. How dare you ask for a PRODUCT THAT WORKS!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Man, I used to consider buying a Viking in the distant future to back up my Emag, but screw that, now I'm looking at a mech mag. Screw AKA.

[GT]

Originally posted by cledford

It appeared that they are (or at least were) having QC issues with them.


Calvin,
Man there are tons of posts in the AKA forum about pre 2k4 viks that had a multitude of problems with the SCM. When AKA went to the SCM in 2k4 I knew I wouldnt buy a vik or excal for atleast a year. Second, I could swear that someone posted somewhere that there were more than a few batches with bad anno causing the bad seal and inturn the creeping?

jb

[B-Lazy]

For the benefit of both of us we request that you do not in the future purchase any AKA products.

Does anybody else see any humor in that statement? Also, Vikings are awesome guns. Just b/c this one dude had a bad experience with AKA doesn't mean that thier products suck. Vikings are the lowest pressure, most effecient, reliable, fast shooting markers out right now, and the 04's aren't very heavy either.


Same thing happened with the boards...they sucked too. I dont know what all the hype is about with these big, clunky, slow, no quality control pieces of junk. Thank SOMEONE that we have AGD...now THEY are a great company with GREAT products! Long Live AGD!

Tuna... I had alot of respect for you but that is an extremely ignorant statement.

[ezrunner]

Man, I hate to see this happened.

Larry and Eileen have been nothing less than OUTSTANDING in the dealings I've had with them. I guess they felt that Calvin would not be satisfied with their product if they replaced it.

At least AKA put the effort out to attempt a refund and correspond with the customer. There are many people in this and other industries that would not have taken that step.

If there is a problem with the anno or reg seats, etc then that is a manufacturing defect.

Everything I've had AKA has been great and to the same high standards I expect from a top notch machine shop such as they operate.

We are only hearing one side of the story here and everyone is entitled to a few bad days. In business you will satisfy customers and you will upset customers. Let's not flame without a full understanding.

-rob

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by B-Lazy
Just b/c this one dude had a bad experience with AKA doesn't mean that thier products suck.

No, but it does mean they have poor customer service. The fact that many other people have this problem as well make me question their reliability as a company as well.


Originally posted by B-Lazy
Vikings are the lowest pressure

Like that means anything


Originally posted by B-Lazy
most effecient

There are others that are close


Originally posted by B-Lazy
reliable

That's debatable


Originally posted by B-Lazy
fast shooting markers out right now

There are other markers that are fast. In either case, almost any marker is going to outshoot your fingers without bounce.

[Tunaman]

Originally posted by B-Lazy


Does anybody else see any humor in that statement? Also, Vikings are awesome guns. Just b/c this one dude had a bad experience with AKA doesn't mean that thier products suck. Vikings are the lowest pressure, most effecient, reliable, fast shooting markers out right now, and the 04's aren't very heavy either.



Tuna... I had alot of respect for you but that is an extremely ignorant statement. Obviously you dont know what you are talking about. Going back to last year and a little further back, these guns came with boards that didnt work, caps that were bull, and there was no factory fix that a dealer could get done. Entire batches of guns that had the same problems with no help from the factory at all. They may have corrected some of these issues by now but the damage to my tastebuds is forever embedded. I lost quite a few customers over this issue and wont ever get involved in this again. This company has a history of selling products that arent worthy of sale but continue to sell them. I can give you at least 5 people I know right now that bought them recently and trust me...they DO suck. Engineer your product correctly and test it fully before dumping it on the unsuspecting public. That is bad business practice. If you need more testimonials I will be glad to provide them to you. If you got one that works correctly you should consider yourself lucky. I know dealers that have had BAD issues with this line of markers. Dont believe the hype...but some people are truly suckers anyway. And for any customer to have to recieve a letter like the one Calvin did is a disgrace.

[Steelrat]

EVERY company has issues with some products. Flatline reg seats, anyone? Though I am a bit concerned about the tone of the letter, I don't know a thing about the events that preceded those two letter, beyond what we have been told here.

Let me tell you my experience. I had an 03 viking that worked flawlessly. I recently bought an 04 that has a leaky ram and a detent issue. I talked with Chris, one of the AKA master techs, who was extremely friendly and helpful. He asked that I send it in for repair. Fair enough. I also posted on the PBN forums regarding an issue I was having with the detents and small paint. The next day, Dan Voils, the other AKA master tech, announces that AKA will be sending out some beta-test bolts designed to correct the problem. So I have had good experiences with AKA service.

The one issue that I do agree with is the "lifetime warranty." Its an often-mentioned benefit, yet few understand that it only covers the parts, not the labor. Thats why I specifically bought mine from OTE, as they cover both for the lifetime of the product.

If this thread hasnt already been linked to the PBN forum, I'll do it. I think we all want to know what happened, and hear AKA's side of it. THEN we can make an informed decision.

EDIT: BTW, I think AGD has THE best customer service. I really dont think anyone is going to be able to reach the same level, and do it for so long. The fact that Tom Kaye shows up for AO events, and talks with people who he knows do not own his products, is indicative of the outstanding attitude AGD has.

[cledford]

Originally posted by Tunaman
This company has a history of selling products that arent worthy of sale but continue to sell them. I

Case in point - the SCM. As much as AKA prides themselves on their use of the internet to reach their customers (Their techs have mentioned it multiple times in the PBN forum - we won't even get into what a real web-presence is ...cough, AO...) There was never one sticky, heck one post, one news item (at their website) that mentioned anything about different generations of SCMs or the need to have generation 1's upgraded to work correctly. After repeated digging, finally a non-factory tech came forward and mentioned this fact and told me how to tell the difference. As soon as I called Christina at the factory and said it was a generation 1 she immediately stated that it needed to come back. IMHO, situations like that give every appearance of a "let's only fix it if they figure out something is wrong" attitude. My feeling is that if you know about a problem you let your owners know as well. The creeping issue could have quite easily led to severe damage to my marker (costing them or possibly me a lot more), or even causing injury to someone - potentially costing a filed owner his insurance. Can anyone explain why they haven't seen fit to make the information general knowledge? I can't figure it out.

-Calvin

[Muzikman]

Calvin, Didn't you have a problem with AKA back in 2002 with the data link cables?

I think it is really bad business to send back a check and a letter saying go away and never come back. I could see if this was in person or over the phone where the person could get a little annoyed and say something like that. In a letter you have time to cool down and re-think things before you send it.

For those who bad mouth Calvin, he is a very stand up guy who just speaks his mind and does not believe things until he sees it for himself. So when things do not work like claimed or like they should, he speaks up. Lots of people do not like this, but it is a good quality to have and shows that someone does care about what they buy.

[cledford]

Originally posted by Muzikman
Calvin, Didn't you have a problem with AKA back in 2002 with the data link cables?

I think it is really bad business to send back a check and a letter saying go away and never come back. I could see if this was in person or over the phone where the person could get a little annoyed and say something like that. In a letter you have time to cool down and re-think things before you send it.

For those who bad mouth Calvin, he is a very stand up guy who just speaks his mind and does not believe things until he sees it for himself. So when things do not work like claimed or like they should, he speaks up. Lots of people do not like this, but it is a good quality to have and shows that someone does care about what they buy.

Thanks Jason.

For the rest of you guy on why I do things like this - I personally feel that the Internet is a huge benefit to our generation. In some ways it sets communication back since most of it is text based, but in other ways it leads to us all having unprecedented access to information to help make decisions with. The information is only as good as the people who supply it, and I feel it's a bit of a civic duty to provide both good and bad experiences to that big pile of data. I personally don't EVER make a purchase anymore without going online first and during at least a quick search. The practice has saved me a lot of time, aggravation, and money. Those benefits only occurred because there were people before me who had a good or bad experiences and who cared enough about everyone else (millions of people they didn't know or would ever meet) to take some of their time to help those others out. I just like giving back. I have a special interest in paintball because of 2 reasons, it's my life's passion and because I've basically been around it almost since the start. It's the only thing I've ever been so heavily involved in, and I feel that it's still in it's youth. In some ways I feel that I've in a small way helped (and am still helping) PB grow into what it will become when mature. My hope is that some day we'll all demand a lot more then lip service from the industry. I'm just trying to help get that started. I have no personal vendetta against AKA - but will let people know if I think a company has done wrong or right.

-Calvin

[punkncat]

I have owned AKA products in the past.I had very pleasant dealings with their customer service department.
I hate to see them treat any customer this way.But as has been stated before , we are only getting one side of the story.Not to say there is no truth to it.
It could have just been a bad day for someone.....

[Steelrat]

So, what are you going to do with your vikings?

On a side note, did you try seating the reg seat with 250 psi? That seems to be the favored method to "break in" the SCM, and get it stable.

[cledford]

Originally posted by Steelrat
So, what are you going to do with your vikings?

On a side note, did you try seating the reg seat with 250 psi? That seems to be the favored method to "break in" the SCM, and get it stable.

I plan on keeping the Viking - unless someone with an Xmag wants it plus some cash :)

I did try seating it with 250psi. Both RevBubba and I think TargetIndy suggested that. I just took a dual sided ASA and put a guage on on side and a check valve on the other. Ran the Sidewinder up to 250 and put it back on the gun. "Hit it" with 500 from the Flatline through a slide check - no dice.

-CAlvin

[Steelrat]

That SCM is a tricky bugger. I think the 04s with the SCMs stock are working a bit better than the SCMs added to the 03s. Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with AKA.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Is that 250 CYCLE pressure into the SCM or setting the sidewinder at 250 so the operating pressure is 250 to seat it? I have an SCM sitting unused that AKA just "updated" and I'm a little nervous I'm going to encounter stuff like this, but I want to make sure I go by the book and know it's not me causing the issue if one exists.

I'm shocked that letter actually came out because you know Eileen wouldn't have mailed it without at least a few others there agreeing that they should do it. I definitely think it's bad business because this is a defect and they basically got tired of fixing their own mistake without finishing the job. How my SCM reacts and if any other customers have encounters like this will have a great effect on whether I continue with AKA or not.

[Steelrat]

I would just recommend calling Chris at OTE and asking him, or posting the question on the AKA forum at PBN. I dont want to get it wrong. I think its 250 from the sidewinder, but im not positive. If, by cycle pressure, you meant 250 out from the SCM (operating pressure), then I know that aint it.

Out of curiosity, if the SCM was creeping, would you see massive variance in the velocity of shots? I dont have a toolkit, so I cant check the pressure. Both of my SCMs (one on an 03, one on an 04) have seemed to work fine, with the chrono readings being +/-3 usually. Is the creep gradual, or totally random?

[Crighton]

Thats crazy. I could see refunding the money and a letter of appology for the trouble. I could see them requesting he send in his entire marker to be tested and have the smc installed at the shop. I cannot for the life of me figure out why they would purposely tell a long time customer to take a long walk off a short pier.

[cledford]

Originally posted by Steelrat
I would just recommend calling Chris at OTE and asking him, or posting the question on the AKA forum at PBN. I dont want to get it wrong. I think its 250 from the sidewinder, but im not positive. If, by cycle pressure, you meant 250 out from the SCM (operating pressure), then I know that aint it.

Out of curiosity, if the SCM was creeping, would you see massive variance in the velocity of shots? I dont have a toolkit, so I cant check the pressure. Both of my SCMs (one on an 03, one on an 04) have seemed to work fine, with the chrono readings being +/-3 usually. Is the creep gradual, or totally random?

The creeping was linear and constant. I would set the SCM at ~75psi and before update it would rise to over 95 (at which time I would degas) in about 4 minutes - with no sign of stopping. Once it was back from upgrade it would creep from 75 to 85 in about 5 minutes then continue to over 95 during aprox 35 more. Just the change from 75 to 85 would cause hot shots. Leaving the marker in the car gassed up during lunch (which is an hour at Pevs) could well lead to a blown 'noid. I also noticed very weird behavior (which I posted twice at PBN and no "master techs" responded to) in that the SCM took FOREVER compared to the LPR to recover fully (like 5-6 seconds) - and during rapid (9bps or so) fire would NEVER climb to over 65 psi. I've found the opposite with the LPR. It recharges to 75 almost instantly and drop off during full-auto (debounce set to 1) is only about 5psi. I can't say whether the funkiness I saw with the SCM was part of the over all problem, or normal. I suggest getting the LPR kit and testing for yourself. What I noticed in the AKA forum was that plenty of people would yell about their SCM working fine, but nearly everyone had no way of verifying it. The funny thing was that the few with the kit seem to be seeing what I saw. The only way to know for sure is to check it out yourself - although I'd like to hear how it goes.

-Calvin

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

I am quite surprised at the letter, since every dealing I have had with anyone associated with AKA has been helpful to the extreme.

I have called several times in regards to my Viking, talked with a tech for several minutes on possible fixes, did not care to spend some time with me to make me feel satisified. That being said I have never talked to Eileen at any length.

Also, I find several interesting things in this thread, mainly peoples different change in buying habits from this, before you judge may I ask that you call up AKA, or one otheir dealers. In my opinion the Viking is one of the best bang for the buck markers. AKA proved that to me at IAO, when I just walked between Palmer and AKA admiring the markers and talking to them and then I was able to shoot their markers there, and that made them several sales.

Az

[cledford]

Originally posted by AzrealDarkmoonZ

Also, I find several interesting things in this thread, mainly peoples different change in buying habits from this, before you judge may I ask that you call up AKA, or one otheir dealers. In my opinion the Viking is one of the best bang for the buck markers. AKA proved that to me at IAO, when I just walked between Palmer and AKA admiring the markers and talking to them and then I was able to shoot their markers there, and that made them several sales.

Az

I am generally very impressed with AKA products. I think that for the most part they turn out an excellent markers and parts. Their business sense (attitude or what term is best here...) in my opinion has always been what was weak. I posted this in the AKA forum as, but it is worth saying here. AKA seems to project an image that when you buy their product you buying into a family or club - which is how they manage their relationships with customers. Overall, I get a sense that they have a perception that they (AKA) is doing us a favor by selling to us, not that we're doing them a favor by purchasing from them. Couple that with the "family" attitude and if you cross them, watch out! You are disowned! Frankly, I purchased a marker, not a membership to a club. I expect the marker (and accessories) work and work well - based on how much I paid. (If we were talking about a spyder that would be another matter entirely) Furthermore, I expect to be treated like a valued customer, who's time, money and patience is a precious thing to not be squandered. If I were an "easy goin" member of the "family" who wasn't concerned about the marker being down, the non functional $95 dollar investment, or the multiple trips to the post office & shipping fees - this could have gone a while longer, I may have ended up with a SCM that worked, and would have retained my "membership" in the club known as AKA. Unfortunately, I wasn't willing to be laid back beyond a resonable point, or continue to ship things indefinitely around the country on my dime, so I tried to send that message in my letter - "please fix this now, it should have worked, and definitely should have worked the second time, ENSURE it works the next time."

Evidently that is not what is expected of the "family " members. What the don't seem to grasp is that I am a CUSTOMER.

-Calvin

[FallNAngel]

I think you mean "ENSURE it works the next time", right? ;) Either way, what would the timm.. I mean, spyder not working have to do with it? I mean, I know you get what you pay for, but if they sell me a product saying it's going to work, it damn well better. Even moreso if I have to send it in several times to be "fixed".

[cledford]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
I think you mean "ENSURE it works the next time", right? ;) Either way, what would the timm.. I mean, spyder not working have to do with it? I mean, I know you get what you pay for, but if they sell me a product saying it's going to work, it damn well better. Even moreso if I have to send it in several times to be "fixed".

Good call ;) Fixed...

-Calvin

[abunkerer]

whoa! ... Here take your money! we don't want it, and we don't want your bussiness either! ...


I agree with whoever said "send copies of both letters to the president of AKA". Sounds to me like someone was letting their personal life interfere with their good bussiness sense. Executives don't like it when their customer service deptartment giving the customers "attitude".
I'd definately send the letters in and see what happens. You'd probably get a free(working)scm, and whoever sent that ridiculous letter to you will hopefully get canned.

This thread is costing AKA a lot of money, Im sticking with my emag!

[~WarpedRT#2~]

You are all forgetting one important thing. Who cares if he set the SCM wrong? Who cares if he hit it with a hammer and jumped up and down on it? The point is, HOW THEY HANDLED THE PROBLEM. Forget AKA, I wont touch a Viking now. I've heard there are problems with Excals with the noids overheating or something. Either way, forget them.

[Jack & Coke]

That's pretty sad... I think AKA OWES you an apology and should beg you to come back!

They probably had no idea of how much PR damage their insulting letter would generate.

If they had any integrity, they would have gotten off their bums to help solve your problem.

If they were smart, they would have come to terms that they produced a lemon reg and just shipped you a band new SCM (latest generation) - one that was tested and works. You would have been happy and probably posted on the forums about how great their cumstomer service was.

LOL! now look what happened! :eek:

I have a lot of guns, and although I have rarely had to deal with any problems, I must say from my experience, the BEST customer service has been DYE. AGE, Tippmann, and BLAST come in a close second place.

Good luck, maybe they'll come to their senses and help you solve your SCM problem...

[cphilip]

Originally posted by abunkerer
...This thread is costing AKA a lot of money, Im sticking with my emag!

They weren't gonna get no money from me anyway.... But then again they weren't gonna get bad mouthed too much from me before this either. I would have a neutral stance on them... up until now.

In this case It comes from a very credible scource. So its gonna hurt very much for them to do this to someone I respect and trust. Up until now Calvin has always been very supportive of them even with the issues he has had. So this is more credible than most any other reports to me.

[Jack & Coke]

Also, you're dealing with company that thinks that a blow forward gun is a short to medium range gun.:rolleyes:

Remember this thread?

Automag get no love... (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49216&highlight=love+and+no)

[GT]

Am I the only one that is higly offended at the 1/2 "ace'd" attempt at a refund? it was what 95 bucks and they sent 80ish your way, that my friends is piss poor....

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Also, you're dealing with company that thinks that a blow forward gun is a short to medium range gun.:rolleyes:

Remember this thread?

Automag get no love... (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49216&highlight=love+and+no)

AKA started their life as a HUGE hype company. The odd part was that a lot of their hype became true. Mainly that their guns were very efficient. Although I do like the Viking, I was very turned off by them as a company back at the 2002 IAO when I sat through their "Tech class" which was more of a sales pitch. This kinda annoyed me. I wanted to know how their guns worked, not that they can throw a sales pitch. Although I think they still make some decent products and I will continue to use some of them. I will not just suggest AKA products as freely as I have in the past.

[cphilip]

Good point there about refund. I mean if you going to tell someone not to buy your product any more the LEAST you can do is offer to buy the whole marker back. What good does even paying him back for a bad part if it makes the whole marker inoperable?

[Phil]

I am currently considering what my new gun will be. I am trying to decide between another Angel, Viking or New Shocker. This letter is making me seriously consider removing the Viking from my choices.

In my business I deal with hundreds of customers daily and as the General Manager I deal with all of the unhappy customers. First of all the way you were treated was completely unacceptable. Secondly the powers that be are not always aware of how their subordinates act at all times. I would be willing to bet that the owner/manager is not aware of how you were dealt with and would appreciate you bringing it to their attention. If that person worked for me I would fire her immediately and I would send you a free SCM that I personally verified worked correctly.

Just because one employee is bad doesn't mean that the whole company is bad. Call and talk with the person in charge and see what they say and let us know.

[fallout11]

Cledford's nasty return note was signed by Eileen Alexander, head of Sales for AKA.
That's not the work of some surly company flunky....he was stonked by management.

[Phil]

Everyone is a flunky unless its their signature on the paychecks. She should be terminated for sending that letter.

[cledford]

She's the company president's mom ;) His name is Aaron Alexander.

-Calvin

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

This really hurts AKA, because I think my key reason for dealing with them has been the reputation for reliable products and good service that most customers of theirs I have talked to or read posts of have echoed. High ROF electro guns with eyes are all over and so are LPRs, many more affordable than the SCM. For how much they have hyped the thing, they should move heaven and earth to make sure it works for everyone that owns one and should understand the aggravation cledford went through to make up for AKA's mistake. How many of those flyers for the SCM did they keep sending out with orders when they were still having issues with it? I have 2 at least and that's just from times I sent my SCM and merlin spring/tornado valve to be fixed. You shouldn't have to kiss a company's butt to get something fixed if it was there fault and should be entitled to voice your annoyance respectfully, which cledford did. Anyone who says he acted rudely is probably full of it because if it happened to them, they wouldn't be half as civil as cledford was.

Eileen's his mom? I thought it was his wife...

[dansim]

gee you guys still wanna pay for their legal fees?:rolleyes:

[minimag187]

Agreed dansim.

[Kris]

I've been trying to get them to sell me a few cocker parts for a month now. Yeah, you read right, trying to get them to sell me. They just don't seem interested in my business.

[Siress]

I honnestly didn't read far past your letter on the frist page, just wanted to warn you.

" I would love to hear back from you regarding this matter and would very much appreciate whatever courtesy beyond replacing the SCM you would like to extend to make up for my time and expense invested in this matter."

I bet that IF they got that far, or the most likely scenario that they read the first few sentences and skipped down to the last few to get the beef of the letter, they decided you were just some spoiled brat that had a chip on his sholder.

My $.02. But for the record I decided I would never buy a AKA product years ago when I was looking for spyder upgrades. Something about them rubbed me the wrong way and when I called them to ask about their LPC's for spyders they hung up on me.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Hey Calvin...you should throw your Viking in a box and send it to them and ask for your money back on that also...see what they say then...

[Steelrat]

I love it. One bad letter and AKA is the antichrist.

[Phil]

I guess firing your mom might make the holidays a bit akward. One bad letter... Thats the way things go in the business world. The saying used to go, "If you give bad service to a customer they will tell five of their friends." Calvin told a few hundred. And its not like the $6.00 an hour phone answerer was rude. It was the friggin head of sales or whatever mom does when she isn't telling customers to go fly a kite. Business practices like that should give anyone cause for concern about their products. I won't buy from them after reading that letter. What happens if the new Viking I was about to purchase had problems? Would I be the next person to get a similar letter?

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Originally posted by Steelrat
I love it. One bad letter and AKA is the antichrist.

Hey....you're the one making that stretch...we're just piling on...it's the American way...I'm still looking at getting a Viking from AKA at the Paintball Expo but it doesn't mean I won't be any less cautious..

[Kris]

Well I really wanted a Delin O-ringed Lightning bolt for my new E-Blade. But they don't seem much interested in selling one (Or two for that matter, I was thinking of buying one for my other coker also...)

If I don't hear from them soon, I guess I'll look alsewhere. Shame too, I always liked AKA products.

[Steelrat]

Are you trying to buy from them directly? Its much much much easier to buy from a distributor.

[Redkey]

is that cledford can write a well composed letter (and posts) without a load of spelling and grammar errors.

I had a similar experience with a local gunshop. Asked me not to come back after I calmly complained about being charged 35 bucks to put a handgun in a box. Peeved me enough that I haven't used a firearm for 5 plus years. Pretty sad when you consider the thousands of dollars worth of guns and reloading equipment sitting in the old garage.

I would be interested in the logic behind their letter.

[jdev]

Originally posted by cledford


I don't think so. It is a straight forward installation with written instructions. Furthermore, when I re-installed the stock LPR with no troubles AFTER the SCM continued to act up. To be quite honest, I'd see a number of posts about SCM issues when I went looking. It appeared that they are (or at least were) having QC issues with them. Lump on top of that the fact that they never publicly acknowledge a recall/update/upgrade (or whatever) and I was a little ticked. I used their LPR kit to do the install and my honest opinion (after having 10+ years experience working on guns) is that it was just a bad unit.

-Calvin

calvin, i know you weren't crass or brackish in your response, but I wanted to clear something up.. that is, that I saw another post you made on PBN stating you had taken their tech class and all. and this post, with your 10+ years in tech work on markers. i just wanted to come across asking a question, not trying to attack ya in any manner :)

[NoFearPaintballer]

wow man that really sucks to have a company to tell you not to buy from them

[ProX9]

Lol I must agree with steelratt on this, one bad taste in your mouth and now aka is crap. I had a prob with my viki when i got it and then fixed the prob the day I called my next day airing the part out to me free of charge. If they hadnt sent out the part then they offered to pay for shipping both ways to aka to have dan personally fix it and send it back all free of charge. Of course once i found out i could fix the problem i just did it myself. I cant believe people who now say that aka is not worth the trouble and are no longer going to consider them as an option. I also think its stupid to bash what a gun because of what it was a year ago , if you could bash guns for what they were along time ago then i could mags were slow as hell last year and until 4.0 comes out into production the x/e mags still arent very fast. Also for people looking for aka stuff, Try searching the net or looking at compulsivepaintball.com , g3pb.com, and ontargetentertainment.com and stop complaining about not being able to find aka products.

[gameday0]

I would just like to say to Cphilip:

Aka and Aka's products own you :)

Thats All

AKA SUPPORTER

[gameday0]

And also.....Please by emags or what evr marker you want, plz dont buy aka products, because if you don't by aka, i know my team and all aka users will be laughing while you have to repair ur leakin/broken/out of time/ crap tastic markers.

[Jack & Coke]

:o

[Ronin 23]

What many of you out there may not realize is that Jon Comprado will be driving down from Chicago to PBX Battlezone (14hrs with no traffic) to personally deliver our rental fleet during one of the year's worst blizzards. He's giving up his weekend not only to professionally represent AGD but to help promote those who support his company and the products they make.

Relatively speaking, on the one hand we have a company employee risking his neck by driving a long distance under dangerous driving conditions. On the other....well :confused:

Now let me ask you guys again....NAME ANOTHER MAJOR COMPANY IN PAINTBALL THAT DOES WHAT AGD DOES....ZILCH

/s/ Mel C. Maravilla

[CaliMagFan]

Hope you all don't mind me saying so, but you're getting to sound kind of childish. Calvin, I don't think the way that you handled this was in any way childish, but I think the situation on this board is getting that way.

I am going to be buying a new marker soon and it will either be a viking or an electronic mag/something else of the sort. This situation on here brings in to sharp relief the situtation in this country with what our idea of "customer service" is. Let's not get into a huge philosophical debate on the subject, but let us break the situation down. First of I work in customer service- I work 7 days a week in a grocery store earning "decent" money for a person of my age, but nothing near what I should be for the crap I take. That said, we are all human, consumers (customers to be more exact) are certainly human, so are "customer servicers", yes we all have our flaws. I take so much crap from hungry, tired, bad-luck, and just rude people in a day, and what do they expect from me? Well, perfect customer service. That said, when do I get the gripe and rip into people? When I go into their store to make a purchase? No, I would never, cause I know what it's like! What if I came to you with all the baggage from my crud-day, expecting you to just smile back? You might say, "Well, that is what you're paid for." But, is it really? I don't think so, I'm payed to serve food at a deli and make sushi for hundreds-thousands of people every day, not be a shrink, and certainly not to de-humanize myself! "De-humanize," you say? Hell yes! What is the average "human" reaction to somebody being rude to you on the street? Or someone trying to give you a hard time? "Hey, buddy, get lost." It's not your issue that this person is having a bad day, is unsatisfied or whatever.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you sound like you want your parts to work.... maybe it doesnt work right at all... maybe aka released a bad build all-together. In any case, this lady is dealing with a bunch of you everyday, not just you. I can bend over backwards for people sometimes, and they'll never be pleased with me or my product. But there are plenty of other folks that will more than appreciate what I vend. Many times I wish I could say, "Get lost jerk, go solve your problems elsewhere." You don't sound like a total jerk from your side, and not even from my side of the issue, put yourself in her shoes, reading your letter, it's a lot harder pill to swallow now, isn't it? You're reading this letter and maybe having a bad day yourself. There are plenty more people that will enjoy what she has to offer, why should she subject herself to more of your harshness, get lost. You sound like a "hard to please" guy. And, yes, I believe that the part was probably "teh Suck". But if you're only displeased, then drop it and go buy a timmy.

sorry about the long post, but i just wanted to say that.

ps.... steelrat, prox-9, and curly were all shooting aka products at AO norcal vs socal... i saw them rip, i was impressed, sorry this one instance left you so butthurt.

good luck
kyro in norcal

[dansim]

Originally posted by gameday0
And also.....Please by emags or what evr marker you want, plz dont buy aka products, because if you don't by aka, i know my team and all aka users will be laughing while you have to repair ur leakin/broken/out of time/ crap tastic markers.
laugh all you want but i'll already be on the field while your sending your gun back for the next"needed" upgrade, and if you want to be taken seriously
a)learn some manners
b) learn to spell:rolleyes:

[DiRTyBuNNy]

well..I still want either a blue or a pink 04 Viking...either way..

[phantomhitman]

well i jsut read the first page and i feel sorry about the issue. i wanted a viking pretty bad but this will make me think twice. :mad:

[Steelrat]

If you let one unverified letter posted on the internet sway you, you need to re-examine how much research you did on the Viking.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Originally posted by Steelrat
If you let one unverified letter posted on the internet sway you, you need to re-examine how much research you did on the Viking.

I wouldn't take this one issue as gospel of AKA's lack of customer service...but it sure doesn't help their case. I'm just as critical of everybody in this industry when it comes to customer service; it's the industry I work in. You can be just as fanatical about AKA as some of the people here on AO are about AGD...but it still doesn't erase the fact that this is a dreadful example of how to take care of a customer.

I would rather like to see Calvin contact AKA on the phone and get a real resolution to his issue and post it up on AO...but that's his perogative...just as much as it seems to be yours to dismiss it completely, Steelrat

[Steelrat]

Dismiss it, no. Weight it appropriately, yes. I wont turn my back on reams of positive feedback and my own good experiences based upon one letter, the circumstances behind which only Calvin and AKA know. And Im no mindless AKA fanatic. The letter concerned me, too. Its just all the over reaction to it is driving me nuts.

That wasnt directed against you DB. You'll only have the gun for about 2 weeks anyways ;) It was directed against the people who are saying stuff like "I was going to get an 04 Viking, but this has changed my mind."

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Originally posted by Steelrat
Dismiss it, no. Weight it appropriately, yes. I wont turn my back on reams of positive feedback and my own good experiences based upon one letter, the circumstances behind which only Calvin and AKA know. And Im no mindless AKA fanatic. The letter concerned me, too. Its just all the over reaction to it is driving me nuts.

That wasnt directed against you DB. You'll only have the gun for about 2 weeks anyways ;) It was directed against the people who are saying stuff like "I was going to get an 04 Viking, but this has changed my mind."

Well..if this is all people have to go on...then you would expect them to have the reactions they do...we're not an AKA forum...nor does any "good" AKA information pass by us...only the bad things get noticed...just like life..

being skeptical isn't a bad thing...speculation just needs to be taken worth a grain of salt...and for this I agree with you...

[banzaimf]

Originally posted by Steelrat
I love it. One bad letter and AKA is the antichrist.

It's all about presentation. One little lawsuit and SP is the antichrist.

As for customer service, treat them all well and you have fewer issues. I walked out of a Subaru dealership today because a dealer was less than curteous with me. All I wanted was an STI and I had the check to do it with too. I will make sure that all my friends know my issues with them. I will also inform their sister organization (whom were very helpful to me this afternoon, but sell other makes)of my issues with them. I will say though, the 350Z was a nice drive :D

[cphilip]

Well most of you don't probably know Calvin personaly. I do. And I can tell you that he exhausted all remedies before he finaly gave up. He would not be coming here if he had still a remedy to resolve this. Fact is AKA decided NOT to resolve it. And AKA decided to stiff him with the marker that doesn't work. AKA cut off all avenues of recourse to adress the issue not Calvin. If Calvin tells you something is so....it is so. There are very few people I would take thier word on something. Calvin is one of them. And its fairly obvious that a few of you didn't even read the whole thread and just came here to blindly defend AKA.

gameday0, I own one of their Bolts for a Cocker. And here to fore have never really had a problem with AKA in general. I did set through their tech class a few years back at IAO. And also noted it was more of a sales seminar than a tech class. I also have seen some other shady things since then done to someone I will just not mention that was a big supporter and business partner with them. But when Calvin shows you what happened to him you can believe it. But if you want to blindly follow some company that you don't really even know then I could care less. But these things don't own nobody. And your a tool for trying to defend them for thier actions just because you like their markers. That has nothing to do with the way they treat customers.

One thing I can say is you will rarely meet a more honest person that Calvin Ledford.

[Steelrat]

Wait, who is a tool?:confused:

[cphilip]

LOL.... not you Steel. Notice I directed that to gameday0 :)

[Arawn]

AO,
Please don't take Gameday as a representative of the AKA owners group.

Calvin,
I feel your pain, having been at the receiving end of bad customer support in a handful of industries. If you decide to keep your Viking (sorry, haven't read the entire thread) and there's anything I can do to help, please feel free to contact me.



B.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Arawn
AO,
Please don't take Gameday as a representative of the AKA owners group.

Oh we didn't. In fact I think Gameday was just more or less kidding with me. And I was more or less kidding back to some extent. No ones taking that part of it seriously, or at least shouldn't be. I am fairly certain it was not ment to be.

But the stuff I am telling you about Calvin is the case. If anyone is lest inclined to trash something it would be Calvin. Thats what I really wanted to get across. I don't want that to get lost in the fray.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by cphilip
If anyone is lest inclined to trash something it would be Calvin. Thats what I really wanted to get across. I don't want that to get lost in the fray.

I second that!

[madmatt151]

So what ever happened with this situation? Did calvin ever call AKA? I would like to know, this seems so inappropriate.

[dinger]

a friend of mine works at a paintball place here in ohio. he's shot just about every nice gun out there, and has heard all the stories about whatever happens.

but its been 5 people in the past month that he's heard about AKA's "letter of doom" as i call it.

its just dip****tedness at its best. but this wont prevent me from buying something aka in the future, it just means that someone on ebay is gonna get ripped off ;)

[cledford]

So what ever happened with this situation? Did calvin ever call AKA? I would like to know, this seems so inappropriate.

I did call AKA. Basically, in a nutshell they were bothered about comments I made in the PBN forum about their business practices - over a year ago. Somehow, they extrapolated my *commentary* on how they (from my perspective) were mishandling customer issues like not having parts in stock for months, software problems, missed deadlines, lack of communication, not effectively planning production (let's fact it if you're 10 months behind on the software it makes sense to build a few data cables while you're waiting) to be full blown issues I should have been personally taking up with them and not in public. Then when I posted in the AKA forum with SCM issues they felt I wasn't dealing with the matter in the proper fashion - as I could have PM'ed a tech without going public. So again I was talking something public that shouldn't have been.

My response is that I don't work or owe AKA anything, but do have a responsibility to my fellow consumers and a right to make what ever observations I choose in a public forum made JUST for that purpose. With regard to the SCM issue I went public for 2 reasons, first EVERY single tech question posted in that forum gets answered - and I thought that was how you dealt with such things at the first level. I did call the factory concurrently, but wanted to make sure that it wasn't something I couldn't fix before shipping it out. Second, when it didn't work when it came back - that was an issue I thought people needed to know about. There have been a NUMBER of questions about the SCM since it has come out, and in my opinion and that of a number of others (check the SCM threads) it's been a crap shoot over whether it hurts more then it helps.

I also (after the fact) think that a recent thread over there I made forcing them to finally admit that there is a FSDO problem with the '03s (and possibly '04) got them angry. All I can say again is that several people (publicly and via PM) have thanked me for my efforts on that issue. FSDO has been around for as far as I can tell over 6 months now and thus far the response has been to basically blame the owner for it. In my thread AKA finally made as much a public statement (which they don't do often) as they could (via a factory tech) that they were working on the problem. Do I think I deserve a medal for my effort in the matter? Nope, I was just doing what I ALWAYS do when I see a company dropping the ball (and not rapidly picking it up); they don't say the squeaky wheel gets the grease for nothing. The FSDO issue is classic, I know it's a problem, I know my first Viking didn't have it, I know I'd seen a NUMBER of other threads about the issue, I know my marker has it, I know that the techs thus far only told you to treat the symptom not the problem, and I know the factory knew about the issue due to the new orings on the 04 ram - but I was the *** for bringing up that we'd (the owners) been left in the dark for several months. I find that to be wrong.

Anyhow, the last part is speculation. All I can say is that AKA is VERY sensitive about bad press. They thought that no matter what happened with the SCM they'd get dinged so they reacted how they did.

Attached below is my final post from the AKA thread on the same topic. the short version is that AKA sees a "family" type of relationship with their customers. That's a good thing and a bad. family relationships (where members get upset when another <fairly or not> talks about them) and business relationships (where people don't take things personally unless the criticism is really unfounded or meant to destroy the business) have VERY different rules. I was looking at the situation from one perspective, AKA the other.

Unless someone wants to PM me about any of the specific details, I'm pretty much done with this. I brought attention to an issue that I thought other consumers needed to know about. My post about the letter was never to influence AKA to "fix the problem", it was to late for that. My posts were to help future consumers make valid decisions. Does AKA have a loyal customer base? Will the throw a couple orings into an envelope and over night them to you? Are they the nicest people to hang out with? The answer to each is a resounding yes - but I feel companies need to be judged on more then just that. Other disagree and that is perfectly their right.

-Calvin



OK, regarding the rest of it. This is done for me. I've said my piece, can tell you that I still feel AKA was wrong with the letter, but have learned enough through this to grasp the whole thing is related to philosophical differences I never expected to exist. When I look at AKA I see "AKA, Inc." and have expectations of them that I hold any company to. A business is an entity, that lives in a world of expectations and commitments outside of those between people. The Alexander's see it differently. Regardless of the ".INC" in the business name, as has been stated to me, AKA is Aaron and his family - and they see their customers as an extension of that family. I find that nice and all, and that provides a lot of character that many of the owners appreciate about the business, but in the end a business is a business and a family a family. Very different sets of rules govern behavior in each. The problem between AKA and I is that I judge the relationship based on business oriented rules, and they on the family. They expect owners to empathize with them on certain issues, they assume that owners will understand and accept certain things, and they reward those who do. I find such behavior inconsistent with how things are supposed to be and frankly have no patience for it. This whole matter has been a fundamental difference of opinion related to this. In a family understanding is expected and slack is cut without being asked for, and all but the worst transgressions are let go without much to-do at all. Such things don’t exist in the business world. When a business misses deadlines, doesn’t have product in stock, fails to acknowledge it's mistakes to it's clients - then it has committed serious infractions to the rules that govern those type of relationships. Whether you care to hold them to one set of rules over another is your choice, but the loyal AKA owners who respond in this forum need to realize that it's a personal choice that should be respected BOTH ways. By not doing so in the future you will be damaging the company you so staunchly defend. In the business world complaining doesn't hurt feelings like it does in a family, it usually gets rapid solution to the issue. Furthermore, the complaints can actually help to improve the business. It's a natural part of that type of relationship. Stifling that, when people (and I'm not talking about me here) come to express their dismay, is a real put off when they are unaware or uninterested in the family relationship and just want/expect what they paid for. Something to remember is that they're not just anonymous "handles" online - but people with cash in hand.

So, as I was saying - I view AKA, Inc. as a business, not a family. The people who run the "business" think otherwise and it shows. It shows in good ways and bad. What happened with Eileen and the letter was bad, the relationships and loyalty they enjoy with many of their owners is an example of the good. That having been said, they probably need to work on blending the two. It's nice that Larry will spend 20 minute helping a customer tear apart a Sidewinder and going over it's operation with him. But that doesn't excuse other (IMHO) valid problems with production, poor planning/forecasting, communication, and not meeting commitments. Let's take one of my issues from last year for example. For all of the good cheer that the AKA owners share with their product owners, it doesn't excuse the debacle with the software - in that Larry, Aaron, and Eileen all on multiple occasions stated it would be finished in a "few" weeks and it actually ended up taking 10 additional months. I see that as a problem, especially when I purchased a marker and it had a note inside *stating* that the software would be available in a couple of weeks - and then it took 4 more months from my personal purchase date. OK, so let's look at the situation from each of the views I've expressed. I see the Alexander's looking at it as "hey, there's a lot of love both ways in our relationships with our customers - so they'll be understanding and accepting - that's what people do in families." Calvin looks at it like "Someone screwed up. Hey it happens, but it impacted me. I bought a product not a family (already got one of those) so although I can understand that **** happens I expect that my time and inconvenience be acknowledged and compensated." I think from a business perspective that's the right thing to do. Take today for example - my 30 minute oil change took 55. The manager, without me saying a word, took 10 bucks off because it was the right thing to do. AKA wouldn't have even apologized - because in a family, people don’t need to. Case in point, there was never the slightest bit of public acknowledgement about the delay, or the slightest apology about the whole matter. In the business world I work in that simple would have never cut it.

Hopefully I make my point. Many of my rants were really attempts to express this gone awry when I started defending my views instead of letting people deal with things however they chose. I expect that this thread will help potential AKA owners decide whether they care (or care not) about the unique relationship required to do business with AKA. I myself expect to continue to purchase their products, continue to acknowledge the positive, and if necessary will still be pointing out the dropped balls. I'll be doing the latter in a more controlled fashion with the additional understanding I've obtained about the company. I'm not excusing them from their obligations to me a customer, but knowing what I do now - I realize that it's my choice to put up with it or not. I enjoy the AKA products I own so am willing to accept the rest within reason. I think going away from this AKA needs to realize their great luck in the dedicated owners base which supports them - but realize that not all clients are so laid back. The Inc. means something as well and they should recognize that.

Take care,

-Calvin

[Siress]

I forsee SCM owners getting 15 bucked to death in the near future. Or has that started already?

Hope you guys get eveything taken care of the best way possible. I'm unsubscribing since my little episode with AKA was already mentioned and I do not own a AKA product.

-Siress

[gameday0]

CPHILIP:

I am no tool to AKA, i dont like aka only because threy make wonderful markers and parts, but because i have purchased 4 vikings in the last two years and have had to deal with them a handful of times and have had nothing but great luck working things out with them. They have always treated m with respect and dignity and this letter just doesnt sound like the same company that i purchased 4 vikings from.

And yes AKA and the products they make own u CPhilip!

[Halliday]

Good job cledford. I know your not looking for a medal, and will never get one.

I have been looking for a new marker, and had been considering AKA. I doubt my next purchase will be from them.

[WARPED1]

Sell the Viking. I can see AKA sending a refund, but the wrong damn amount? Bad.
Then to tell you to flip off and never buy thier stuff? Bad.
So, by that logic AKA=Bad.

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Not to mention the fact they simply 'gave' a refund.

I don't know what the laws on the books are, but at the computer store I work at, if there is a problem with a customer that is really that serious, (i.e. it truly seems like they cannot be satisfied, no matter what,) you don't just give them their money back. You give them the option of either doing so, and offer another resolution.

We had a lady who repeatedly installed her bad network card in our PCs, which caused problems (Another network card worked fine.) She brought the machine in once, the problem was with the network card she installed. We put a Cover on the I/O Slot, gave it back to her. No charge despite the fact it was her network card causing the problem. She brought it back, The IO Cover was gone... She obviously installed the network card again. We tested it out fine. She repeatedly brought the machine back because she formatted the hard drive, and she expected us to fix it free of charge.

We got to the point, where we had to tell her that we would no longer warranty the machine, and she would either have to pay for it to get fixed, or we would offer her a refund for the purchase price, less a 15% Restocking fee ( And the primary reason for the restock was a lack of packaging materials, NOT the fact we had had various techs spend time on the machine free of charge.)

She complained about this resolution offer, even. But we held firm on the restock fee, no matter what. AAAAAANYway, the point being:
1: Some people can't be pleased.
2: It appears, that perhaps, AKA Felt you were one of those people. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think you did ANYTHING out of line. You have made a significant investment into your marker. There seem to be issues with this aforementioned marker. Issues that need to be resolved. First Shot Drop Off, IMHO, sounds like one of the ugliest things on earth. I don't know what your 'software' issues were, but, umm, From what I heard, one of the reasons for switching from Nelson to Morlock boards was a tendency for the Nelsons to lose their Programming... Nice.
These SCM issues, well, who knows why they're happening. Some people on PBN seem to think it could be something else in the gun. That's a possibility. I don't know, since I don't own a Viking. I still Want to own one, but it will probably be put further back on my list of 'things to buy.'

3: I really don't know what to think of AKA. I went to their tent to inquire about Javelin Barrels for my AutoMag... And The lady at the Tent (Probably Eileen,) looked at me like I grew a third head, and, If I recall correctly, her response was somewhere between 'I don't know if that would work' to 'hell no,' despite the fact I specifically mentioned that my gun took Autococker threaded barrels. Meh. *shrug*

I honestly don't know at this point who to get a High-end-electro from. I Like X-Mags, but they seem so... Not as efficent as other guns. Besides, I already have an RT Pro. Vikings, well, I was giving them a lot of thought, but now I don't know. Something about Timmies make me cringe. I refuse to buy any more Smart parts products, and for that matter I don't exactly get driven wild by spool-valved guns (i.e. Matrix, 2k3 Shocker).

I will NOT get an E-Blade.

That leaves me choosing between The lower-end Bushmaster, and the upper end Angel. Unless I happen to run into enough money for an X-Mag. (If I had the cash for an X, I know I'd get it.)

Damn, I guess Ican't be pleased, can I? ;)

[cphilip]

Well that analagy might work but in this instance all they did was refund part of "the part" of the marker that made THE WHOLE marker non functional. If they wanted to do as you say they would have refunded the ENTIRE markers value to him. He can hardly use it with a broken part they refuse now to even fix. They rendered the entire marker unworkable. Now his only choice is to fix it with some other markers part to make the whole thing work, Not the same thing as you describe doing with this ladies computer.

[magman109]

The thing that i love about how AKA handled this most of you might not know as it wasnt mentioned on here.

When this same thread was started on Pbnation, from the beggining every AKA fanboy and tech there called for it to be closed imediately. They eventialy said that they were closing it because noone was saying anything new. Now its great that PBnation doesnt store threads that are closed and fall way down. LOL now no one on Pbnation can see clifs problems or his arguments. LOL Thats a great way to make a complain dissapear i think. If you dont like it just close the thread and let it go away.

Pat

PS clif this is Sluhstud from Pbnation

[cledford]

It's still there...

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=398671

[magman109]

so it is so it is. I didnt find it when i searched for it before, the servers might have been down though, they have been alot lately. I really dont like how they closed it and wouldnt let it die a normal death though still. Seems like stuff is getting covered up to me/

Pat

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Originally posted by cphilip
Well that analagy might work but in this instance all they did was refund part of "the part" of the marker that made THE WHOLE marker non functional. If they wanted to do as you say they would have refunded the ENTIRE markers value to him. He can hardly use it with a broken part they refuse now to even fix. They rendered the entire marker unworkable. Now his only choice is to fix it with some other markers part to make the whole thing work, Not the same thing as you describe doing with this ladies computer.

The lady was more of a off-hand-rant.

I was more referring to the fact that they just went up-and-refunded his money without offering another alternative, which is pretty uncool, especially since it was less than what he paid.

And in the case of that machine, the only defective part of that thing was the user ;)

And, for that matter, He does not "have to fix it with some other marker's part," unless I missed something. the SCM is just a souped up LPR, he can always go back to the stock LPR.

[cledford]

Originally posted by magman109
so it is so it is. I didnt find it when i searched for it before, the servers might have been down though, they have been alot lately. I really dont like how they closed it and wouldnt let it die a normal death though still. Seems like stuff is getting covered up to me/

Pat

I agree.

-Calvin

[sygyzy]

Didn't get a chance to read through the entire thread but the OP does not surprise me at all. If anyone thinks AKA has great customer, they must tell me what they are smoking. Before I go on, let me explain that I think AKA markers are awesome. Unfortunately, good customer service and good products are two different things.

My great experience with AKA was when I bought a used AKA VLM. The seller claimed that his dog chewed one of the Sidewinders, so he included another. Both had heavy tool marks. Sure, chances are he took a wrench to them and blamed the dog. He was in the US Army stationed in Germany. I couldn't verify the story, nor did I care.

I sent both regs to AKA with a note explaining the situation. I had ActionJunkie accuse me on the board of LYING to AKA. He said that I tried to blame *my* dog for the worn regs and that I was an idiot with a pair of pliers. Again, I received them this way!

The next funny thing that happens is Eileen or whatever her name is tells me the cost to repair each reg was $95 (or some amount that exceeded the cost of a new regulator). I questioned how it's possible that it costs more to fix a reg (ie changing seals and a middle body section and a screw), than to buy a new one. She said that made perfect sense to her.

Now they have a legal defense fund? Maybe they can allocate a portion of those monies and take a seminar on basic customer service.

Great guns, horrible service.